UKH

I see these terms used a lot in juxtaposition but I've never seen any definition.

In reply to TheFasting:
Alpine summer conditions can be pretty warm during the day. Winter conditions are what you get in winter.

One specfic and major difference is that you can reasonably expect to be mostly climbing dry rock on an alpine rock route in good "alpine" conditions even if the approach is over snow. This is not true of "winter" conditions.

In reply to TheFasting:


Searching for references to 'Savage Slit' in the UKC Forums will probably tell you far more than you ever needed to know about Winter Conditions.

In reply to planetmarshall:

A nice civilised HVD isn't it? Just carry a generator and hairdryer for those winter attempts

In reply to davidbeynon:

So would something like this be alpine or winter conditions? https://www.instagram.com/p/BZLIHK2n-fw/?taken-at=621766056

In reply to leon 1:


Although if Ines Papert is around, she's probably chosen these conditions to go and do the hardest route in Scotland.

In reply to TheFasting:

A whole day climbing in the alps, will see the best and worst of winter conditions. Starting the day on rock hard snow, secure ice, great neve, rocks frozen in place...... by tea time in peak summer... your wading through porridge, nothing stays in place and rocks are whistling down past your ears.

In reply to TheFasting:

I wouldn't bother trying to make a clear definition as Scottish winter conditions are quite different in character to Norwegian winter conditions. The UK has a more maritime climate and it's much rarer for most of Norway to get the rime build-up that Scotland gets. Scotland also only really gets snowfall in winter and early spring, whereas Jotenheimen for example can get snow across three seasons. It's not really correct to describe snowy conditions in Norwegian mountains as being winter conditions therefore.

In reply to TheFasting:

Looks like snowy conditions on an alpine route to me.

I said you can "reasonably expect" dry rock, but of course you can get snow dumped on you at any time of year and if you want to do the route when it is snowy then it is a fair choice as well.

I just got back from a week long alpine summer rock climbing trip where we climbed nothing because 30cm of snow got dumped on our route the day before the one nice day, and another 30cm landed on it the day after. A couple of weeks ago it was +35C

In reply to TheFasting:

Winter conditions = you suffer in winter in Scotland, North Wales or the Lakes

Alpine conditions = you suffer in the Alps, any time of year

In reply to Mr. Lee:



You live in Norway don't you? It's odd I think all of the mountains I've been up in Norway have been in sight of the sea! So its about a maritime as it gets in my mind! But then I've never been anywhere in the south, indeed I don't think I've been south of the Arctic circle in Norway. I've definitely seen rimed up rock in Lyngen but mainly only higher on peaks.

In reply to TobyA:

Ok maybe Lyngen gets some rime (seen the same in Senja etc). Maybe maritime was the wrong word. Whether it's the climate or the rock I've never seen proper rime build-up in central or southern parts (OP says he's from Trondheim). The rock tends to be either dry or wet in my experience. My point was more that Scottish winter conditions are quite unique and not the same as other countries.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

I think although it gets cold at 1000m in Scotland, the average winter temp in the nordics is lower, so air is denser and even at 100% humidity, will contain less moisture etc.. so less rime and also I think why a slightly damp Scottish day at -2 can feel cooler or more chilling than a many times colder day in the nordics. That's my theory anyway.

Ps. For any 'more of less' listeners, ignore the many times colder bit.

In reply to TobyA:

purely anecdotal but in October/November, camping halfway between Oslo and the western fjords was way way colder than anywhere between there and lofoten

In reply to TheFasting:

Alpine conditions you get in alpine regions, winter conditions you can get anywhere in the winter.

I think you're over thinking this.

In reply to JayPee630:
Assuming this is related to the earlier "how do I train for X?" threads I was thinking of suggesting just going out in the worst conditions. Then everything else will be easy

In reply to davidbeynon:

Oh no this isn't really about anything like that. I'm just wondering how people use the term. I've seen people writing that something was "more alpine conditions than winter conditions" during winter ascents and wondered what it meant. But the difference seems to be mostly just the amount of snow? Is the temperature and weather relevant?

In reply to JayPee630:


I think you're missing the point!

In reply to TheFasting:


Yes. Sun is required for alpine conditions, I would say.

In reply to TheFasting:

I think if you ask 10 different people you will get 10 different answers as it's not clearly defined.

My dividing line is that in winter conditions it will be fscking cold, and you will be dealing with ice on the route, pretty much guaranteed. Summer alpine conditions may have snow and ice but it often doesn't hang around and you probably won't need to be dressed for -10C all day.

In reply to TheFasting:

In that case it means there was a bright blue sunny sky, maybe some snowmelt by lunchtime, just like you would get on a day you would go out in the Alps. As opposed to the typical all-day, gloomy, freezing fog of UK winter conditions

In reply to TheFasting:


It meant they had fun in nice conditions, sunny skies etc, as opposed to the sufferfest that a standard Scottish day normally involves.

In reply to TheFasting:

Climate-change adapted definitions:

Winter Conditions (UK): 8 degrees, windy as f*ck and pissing down with rain

Alpine Conditions (EU): Raging sunshine and 30*C up to 4000m