UKH

Just heard the Patterdale MRT leader being interviewed on Look North. he was, as expected very professional in his replies but he also added an additional insight - there was no 'thank you' afterwards. So leader eating dinner while ill-equipped group lost, no thank you.

Why doesn't anyone interview these morons to give us an insight into their warped grasp of reality.

In reply to neil684:

I think that the current MRT system is becoming unsustainable. Almost nobody should require rescuing simply because they got lost. Fair enough if you are injured, or manage to get crag fast in your attempt to get "un lost".

In reply to neil684:



To interview the morons would mean the MRT releasing personal information to the media, something they're obviously not keen to do. It's a sad state of affairs, with an ever increasing number of call outs for spurious reasons and an expectation that the MRT can be called out if people feel a bit tired or may be late to the pub.

The thing we do need to worry about are all the calls for compulsory insurance and 'training', or fining people who don't carry 3 pairs of boots, six maps, four compasses and personal location beacons 'in the mountains', which are now springing up all over facebook.

The team should just have scoffed the blokes dinner and gobbed in his wine...

In reply to neil684:

Then, of course, there are the knobs who demand to be assisted off the hill because they are tired and they "pay their taxes".

In reply to Ridge:

The thing we do need to worry about are all the calls for compulsory insurance and 'training', or fining people who don't carry 3 pairs of boots, six maps, four compasses and personal location beacons 'in the mountains', which are now springing up all over facebook.

Not only on Facebook, but on UKC as well judging by some of judgemental comments about helmet wearing on the Mina thread.

In reply to mypyrex:


Source?

In reply to neil684:

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/lakes/Mountain-rescue-annoyed-by-avoidable-ca...

This one?

In reply to neil684:

Context:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1691673470908021&id=8...
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1693612944047407&id=8...

In reply to deacondeacon:


IIRC it was Wasdale MRT some years ago.

In reply to wilkesley:

I can't for the life of me see why your comment got 3 dislikes. Probably from people who call out an MRT if it gets dark. This attitude that sees calling for a rescue team if your lost or benighted drives me mad. If you gear up correctly you can survive a night in the hills and walk down in the morning and if you are lost you just have to descend by any decent path and get a taxi back to your car if you end up in the wrong valley. It's all part of the experience.

In reply to neil684:


Shouldn't the paths be lit at night? These facilities are a bit haphazard in their safety setup. Light them up so you dont get lost at night.

In reply to Ridge:

I think in Aosta (Italian alps) rescue is free is there is a genuine emergency, such as incapacitating injury, cheapish if there is a problem of a more minor kind, and very expensive for those taking the piss. The rescue corps decide what's what. Perhaps worth considering

In reply to blackmountainbiker:


So these "people" are you and me right? In which case no problem. Walk further, suffer more, maybe eat less as the grub runs out, and finally hitch as the car is now in a valley 30 road miles away. All fine, makes a great yarn.


However what if it's a family who simply were too ambitious, weather came in, Nav skills not quite what they should be....or heck just simply made a mistake? The kids are now very tired and are feeling really really cold. Rescue now maybe? Or just a night out to teach them a lesson?

MRT are stars. Their time and skills should not be taken for granted, neither should anyone who needs them feel too unworthy to call.

BTW I was one of the three dislikes.

In reply to Wainers44:


In Patterdale? The answer is "go down". You will hit a road within an hour or two at absolute mostWor case you will need to spend money on a taxi.

In reply to andyjohnson0:

Context:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1691673470908021&id=8...

If you get to the end of the article, you'll see an advert for a lost dog (Zeus). Good news, he's been found!

http://www.doglost.co.uk/dog-blog.php?dogId=119443#.WcBBZuSWz-Y

In reply to MG:


Not upper Deepdale then, in the rain and fog. Get to the bottom and there is no road, but how can this be its Patterdale isn't it. Now not sure if you have strayed into Rydale, or even Grisedale?

Easy typing in a warm dry house isn't it. Hope that all the party can stand the cold and the wet. Especially the younger ones.

In reply to Wainers44:


Whereas staying still for hours waiting is better? And there is a road a few Km down the valley anyway. I agree that people shouldn't hesitate to call for help if they need it but the idea that being a bit lost is sufficient reason anywhere in Patterdale strikes me as very unlikely

In reply to MG:


But the point is that by now in the cold and the wet that the logic of the road being where you think it should be has washed away. So do you go on, just in case it is there or do you find some shelter? Its a far harder choice than you suggest.

In reply to neil684:

It's normally better to be stretchered down the hill than wear your own knees out.
But folks should be wary to keep up the pretence of distress otherwise MRT might smell a rat.

In reply to blackmountainbiker:

Possibly the mobile phone which allows people to call for help while on the hill has increased the number of call outs.
Pre mobile phones you had to get yourself off the hill in order to make the phone call for help.
As MRT are all volunteers maybe it's time they simply said no and didn't turn out to obvious cases of people not actually needing to be rescued.

In reply to baron:




I think they do tend to try and talk the obviously not 'lost' walkers down whenever possible.

In reply to Ridge:

Which is good, lost people are saved and the MRT can stay in the pub.

In reply to birdie num num:

>

Are these numpties taking carrying their pet rats up the hills now? No wonder MRT are pissed off with them.

In reply to Wainers44:

There is no comparison between, say, a family getting lost through over ambition and this case. Large party lost in the hills with little or no navigational equipment or skills and the leaders calling 999 then going off to dinner and bed.

In reply to Wainers44:


If you're in Deepdale, then follow the valley down to reach the road.
If you're in Rydal, then follow the valley down to reach the road.
If you're in Grisedale, then follow the valley down to reach the road.

In reply to Tobes:

Clicking on 'Related articles' I didn't realise Barrow was such a hotbed of crime!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

It interesting that my post and Wainers are both getting about the same number of likes. It seems there is a split in views about what MRT is for - last resort, or general insurance for unplanned tricky situation. I guess up.to MRT teams to decide what sort of service they can provide in the end.

In reply to Wainers44:


Any parent(s) taking their kids up onto the fells without knowledge of navigation, experience and knowledge of terrain and all the right gear for 'just in case' situation's, shouldn't be heading up onto the fells in the first place.


Yes they are indeed, which is why the should be used as a last resort, not a lazy,default first course of action because it's got a bit damp and misty.

In reply to Goucho:

I agree with the drift, but leaders/parents like that probably don't even know they shouldn't be doing it

In reply to wercat:


I know sod all about welding, but common sense tells me a mask and heat resistant gloves, are probably a good starting point

I think there is simply a lazy attitude, that if they get into the slightest bit of difficulty, all they have to do is pull out their smartphone and call the MRT, because that's what they're there for.

Unfortunately, there are many people who think it's someone else's job to protect them from their own irresponsibility and stupidity.

I think our MRT's not only deserve far more recognition and respect for the brilliant job they do, but also a lifetimes supply of booze for having to deal with these kind of numpties on a regular basis, whilst still being good natured, courteous and professional.

It's a skill set I certainly do not possess

In reply to Goucho:




Sorry if this sounds pedantic but in the normal scheme of thing calls are made via 999 to the police who pass it on to the relevant team.

In reply to wilkesley:

Chatting to a chap from Oldham MRT at Pule Hill yesterday, he seemed fairly confident that they weren't often called out to 'lost' people much these days due to the capability of mobile phone navigation and the general good signal in the Peak District for them to get a lock on their location from the comfort of the sofa and talk them out without budging an inch. Not sure how this extends to other areas, obviously.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

The development of SARLOC by one Mr Russ Hore has made a huge difference for the 'mislocated' callouts.

In reply to neil684:


Leaving their groups up on the hills whilst they tucked into a hearty meal and pint. Going to bed with no idea who in their group was still on the hill. That is not called leadership it is called abdication of your responsibilities. Shocking behaviour. If they have any mountaineering leadership qualification it should be withdrawn.

In reply to Goucho:



You rather miss the original point, which was my responding to a generalism that anyone only lost shouldn't be rescued. Not quite sure why you think people should be rescued if it's a bit damp and misty?

What parents should do, be knowledgable about, should carry just in case is probably clear to you and me and most on here.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:




Of course, I should have thought of that. No need to worry about how long that might take as the kids are bound to be OK. Your logic can be applied to any location in the UK, indeed you have single handedly made MRT redundant. Well done to you sir.

In reply to MG:


Not sure I go with your definition of what I said. Look back up thread and what I responded to was the idea that "lost" people shouldn't be rescued. That isn't a simple and wildly general thought that I agree with.

Widen this out to say rescue at sea. Should the RNLI be encouraged to leave unqualified or simply "lost" sailors to their own devices? On a flat calm sunny day in Plymouth Sound while in clear view of the Coastguard then maybe yes? But off the north Cornish coast approaching dusk then maybe not?

In reply to Wainers44:
I have no problem with mountain rescue call outs where they are needed and the scenario you present is clearly one of those cases. From reading the recent reports of unnecessary call outs I don't think over ambitious families were involved but you've made a point.

In reply to baron:
It's always going to be a difficult call. I think people need educating further about potential risks when embarking on activities in the hills but it would be good if more was known about the rescue teams by the public and the fact that they are volunteers who give their time freely to deal with people's poor planning and preparation as well as rescuing genuine accident victims.

In reply to wilkesley:


Surely this is the best argument yet of phoning mountain rescue if you're lost? They won't have to rescue you, they just have to help you relocate instead of spending all night fetching you off steep ground in the dark.

Anyway, has anyone asked mountain rescue teams what they think?

In reply to Wainers44:


That's not quite true - parts of the Cairngorms could potentially result in walks of many km down valleys before getting anywhere. But generally, yes, isn't that the point? If a party can walk down, they should, with rescue being left for situations where they can't?

In reply to XXXX:

MRT should be disbanded and rescues performed (or not performed) by bands of drunken walkers/climbers from the nearest pub.
Then people might not be so keen to ask for help.

In reply to neil684:
The Web page for Scala World 2017 (I can't submit a link for some reason) lists a "Big Hike" in Patterdale on a Saturday and the schedule therein lists computing activities this week, at Rheged ....


http://scala.world


the link is actually https

In reply to Wainers44:

Well that's where we disagree. If the only problem is being lost, I don't think anywhere in the Lakes should require a rescue - walking downhill until unlost is the answer. Obviously if there are other problems too, that may be a different matter.

In reply to neil684:

I was thinking similar to some of the responses while out walking the last few days.

I always carry a survival or bivvy Bag, extra fleece, down jacket, decent amount of high calorie food and substantial first Aid Kit.
In my mind, if I get caught out in redonculous weather and end up becoming too injured to move, or in a predicament I REALLY can't get out of, then I'm fully able to hunker down for the night. Preventing people risking their lives, in really bad weather, to get to me.
Might be overkill, but that's how I think of it.

Yes, if it's a life threatening injury, there's always the need for a quick response, and that's what they're there for.

But, walking past people with the tiniest day pack on, or even just a bottle of water in hand. Surely are asking for trouble?

I think people get a false sense of security in our mountainous areas, as they generally have good footpaths etc. But some get caught out way too easily.

In reply to MG:

Maybe have a read of this MRTs incidents? They explain why in some cases it's necessary.

Also don't forget that the lost people aren't always the ones who make the call. Them being overdue could be due to anything and those calling it in have no way of knowing!

In the case of this team it looks like three things would significantly reduce the call outs....

Fence off Striding Edge

Wall up Priests Hole

Hand out head torches at car park exits.


All slightly unlikely! Being lost isn't the biggest cause of call outs by a long way. Anyway on my hols today and heading to Patterdale...going to look for an MRT donation box! Have a good one!

In reply to Wainers44:


However long it takes it's likely to be a lot quicker than sitting somewhere on the hill and waiting for MRT to find them.


There are plenty of places where descending to the valley can leave you many miles from the nearest road. Most of the Highlands for instance, and a fair few places in Wales. I can't think of any in the Lakes offhand (though there may well be some) - the closest would be the descent into upper Eskdale.


Not at all - I'm talking about people getting a bit lost, not people being injured.

In reply to martinturner:

Agree Martin.

I consider myself to be a pretty competent and experienced mountaineer, yet no matter what time of year, or what the weather, I still always carry the requisite amount of 'just in case' clothing and equipment - even for a leisurely stroll up hills I've done many times before.

At the end of the day, stupid is stupid, and there are a lot of stupid people about.

Maybe if a charging system for unnecessary call outs was introduced, it might lead to a better and more sensible approach from people, and less stupid people in the hills?

In reply to Goucho:

How would you imagine enforcing a charging system? it seems to me it would be next to impossible, unless you're going to install turnstiles at access points and set about policing hills in ways which I doubt many people would find acceptable.

I believe the hills should be free and open to all. Some people will go up ill-equipped and ill-prepared and most of them will come back safe and sound without any need for any assistance. It's only a tiny handful who will need help - and I'd be interested to know what proportion of MRT callouts are of the stupid nature and how many are for experienced walkers. Being tired is a poor excuse for a callout, but I wonder how many times it actually happens?

In reply to neil684:

This is linked to the problem of people calling out ambulances or going to A&E for trivial reasons. Many years ago while out cycling I happened across a mountain biker who was sitting on the pavement surrounded by his pals, all of whom looked embarrassed. He was whining that he had fallen off and "I've got a hole in my knee". I looked and could see a small tear in his cycling tights but no sign of blood. At that moment an ambulance turned up; the cyclist actually shuffled across the pavement on his bottom with his leg held out straight and the expressions on the faces of the ambulance crew said it all.

In reply to tony:

Various kinds of payment systems work well enough in the alps for rescue so it clearly isn't impossible. As above, Aosta, has a sort of variable fee, depending on the type of call out.

In reply to MG:

Areas where payment occurs are also areas where insurance is required, rescue services are paid, etc. Do we want to go in that direction?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I'm not sure anywhere requires insurance but certainly there is no expectation of a free service in many places. Personally I wouldn't object to insurance at all. However, if the MRT teams are happy being voluntary, great. But, I think with things being "free" there will be some (increasing??) call outs that are absurd.

In reply to martinturner:



Always? Must make going to the pub hard work... although come to thing of it I've had nights out where that would all have come in handy...

In reply to tony:



I was talking about charging people for unnecessary rescue call outs, not for access.

So if you go up into the hills, without a map or compass and the ability to use them, if you go out poorly equipped etc, and have to call out the MRT, then you get charged.

You might be amazed at how people develop the ability to not be stupid, if an MRT call out costs them money?

Obviously I'm not talking about genuine, unforseen incidents, which there for the grace of God can happen to any if us, but for unnecessary call outs which are just down to irresponsibly, stupidity and lazyness.

In reply to Goucho:


What if you take a map but it blows away, or take a compass but drop it (I've done both). Who defines "poorly equipped"? It will end up being a lawyer, and fell runners will end up needing expensive rescue insurance.

In reply to Goucho:

Totally agree charge stupid people.

Now I wouldn't consider myself a stupid person but I do occasionally do stupid things. Can I be charged on a sort "stupid as you go" tariff?

Seriously though if the MRT teams ever decided they had to or wished to start charging then I would totally support that. In this case theirs is the view that counts as far as I am concerned.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

The judgement is easy in hindsight when you know how far that walk out is.

Ironically being properly equipped...bivvy bag etc...might make a family decide not risk hypothermic kids and stop and wait for help?

I just think its easy to judge everyone and every circumstance by what you or I might do. Would I ever envisage calling for help if lost...nope and I have been misplaced a few times...sometimes by choice.

In reply to Wainers44:


No.

The problem with charging people is that people may be put off calling for assistance when they do actually need it and wait until a situation becomes far more serious, leading to complications.

I'm sure there are lots of situations where people have been talked down by phone and hence the numbers of 'call outs' are higher than the number of times a team of people go out. Maybe there are even incidents where one rescuer has attended and walked the party down.

I thought it was usual that people who have been rescued become more active in fund raising or make donations to the local MRTs.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


And who defines 'stupid'? Even within the climbing community there is a range of attitudes towards what's acceptable.

In reply to Goucho:


If you're talking about making monetary charges when people are in the hills, you're talking about affecting the cost of access



Educate me. Show me the cases where anyone has developed the ability to not be stupid after an MRT incident, charged or otherwise. Some people will learn from their mistakes, whether they're charged or not, others won't - they'll huff and they'll grumble, and there's a reasonable chance they'll never venture onto the hills again. You might think that's a good thing, and in some cases it might be, but for every genuine idiot who shouldn't be allowed out of their front door, there are plenty who just want to go for a nice walk in nice surroundings but who don't know any better. Lots of people start from a position of complete ignorance but can learn as they get more experience.


Define irresponsibility. I'll go out on hills I know well without the whole palaver of a bivvy bag and a down jacket and spare this that and the next thing and enough food to keep a small army going for a week. Is that irresponsible? Who gets to judge what is and what is not irresponsible?

In reply to tony:

That's alright then... if you know the hill, you won't break your leg, no problem.

In reply to martinturner:


In fact, I'm very well aware that if I have an accident, I'll be in trouble. It's a risk I'm willing to take. If I were to carry all the kit, I wouldn't be running (or not in any sense that I'd enjoy). I'll rarely go with less than is required by the usual hillracing rules (although I'll admit I rarely take a pair of waterproof trousers ...), but on terrain I know and in conditions I'm comfortable with, I go lightweight.

But much of the narrative above is about stupid people being ill-equipped. I really dislike that. Lots of people make mistakes in the hills. That won't change, regardless of charges levied on rescues and MRT callouts.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Did you call out the MRT when your map blew away?

Poorly equipped is actually not difficult to define:- no map or compass/GSP, no waterproofs, inadequate footwear.

It's not exactly rocket science, and with the huge amount of information online, 5 minutes on Google is all it takes.

In reply to Goucho:



Define inadequate footwear. Every year hundreds of people go up Ben Nevis and through the Lairig Ghru in light trainers and without a GPS. Is that inadequate?

In reply to tony:

I think the important distinction isn't over equipment but need. Do people actually need to be rescued, or is it just convenient to be? That, I understand, is what is used to decide on costs elsewhere.

In reply to tony:


No I'm not. You're making an eronious connection between the two.


That's a result either way.

You might think that's a good thing, and in some cases it might be, but for every genuine idiot who shouldn't be allowed out of their front door, there are plenty who just want to go for a nice walk in nice surroundings but who don't know any better. Lots of people start from a position of complete ignorance but can learn as they get more experience.

Ignorance is not a valid excuse, it's a cop out.


As an experienced person, you are making a deliberate and calculated assessment on what you need, and your capabilities to deal with any unforseen circumstances should they arise.

It's irresponsible to go out onto the hills with neither the knowledge, experience or equipment needed to ensure a safe outcome. Yes we've all done silly things and taken risks and chances, but how many of us when we do, expect someone else to bail us out when the shit hits the fan because of this?

As I said in an earlier post, MRT's should not be viewed as a mandatory nanny service for lazy, selfish numpties.

In reply to tony:

If any of them call out the MRT if the weather craps out, then yes, they are wearing inadequate footwear and inadequately equipped, if they don't, then they're not.

In reply to Goucho:


Seriously? You were fully informed the very first time you ventured onto a hill? You never had to learn by your mistakes?

Everyone starts out ignorant, and blaming people for a natural state seems a slightly odd thing to do. Self-reliance is something you learn, and you learn it by doing, not by being scolded or belittled.

In reply to Goucho:


So, on the Ben Nevis race, or the Lairig Ghru race, one of the racers in lightweight running shoes slips and breaks a leg and requires an MRT callout, they're inadequately shod, and all the other racers are fine, they're adequately shod? That's an interesting notion.

In reply to tony:

A lot of us were taught...

In reply to tony:


Once again you're twisting things to suit the point you want to put across.

I have never said that an injury isn't an unforseen and completely acceptable reason to require assistance from the MRT.

However, if one if the runners requires assistance because the winds got up a bit, it's started raining, the mist has come down, and they're getting a bit chilly and uncomfortable in their lightweight gear, and so decide to call out the MRT, then yes, they are inadequately equipped for their abilities.

In reply to tony:


I went out with someone highly experienced, and learnt from them. But yes, I have learnt by my mistake, but it hasn't involved having the local MRT on speed dial.


You learn by sorting your shit out yourself, not phoning for someone else to sort it out.

I've f*cked up and had epics all over the world - several of them extremely life threatening on a ricter scale if 10+, but I've never expected a third party to drag my/our arses out if the fire.

In reply to Goucho:

I just find it unnecessarily demeaning to think that everyone who makes a mistake of whatever kind is some kind of idiot who either needs to be charged for their mistakes or hounded off the hills, never to be seen again. Phrases like "having the local MRT on speed dial" seem unpleasant and deliberately antagonistic.

All most people want to do is go for a nice walk. That they should be subject to quite so much opprobrium from a community which sometimes likes to think of itself as warm and welcoming and inclusive isn't something I find very attractive.

As I've said a number of times before, this is becoming an increasing unpleasant place to be.

In reply to tony:

I don't think people intend to put a blanket statement out that everyone who's unprepared is stupid. It's a term I purposefully haven't used in any of my posts at all

But what I can read most people are saying, is that when you go into the mountains unprepared or knowingly taking risks, in the pursuit of saving weight etc, then they should be fully aware of the situation they are putting themselves in.

If you have a completely unforeseen accident and it was a very unlikely scenario (broken leg, big fall etc), then calling the MRT is a justified response.
However, being on the brink of hypothermia because the weathers turned and you only have a light jacket on, still calls on a call to the MRT, but it would be seen as irresponsible.
Which is the major difference

I for one am not in favour of charging for any rescue, but I do think people really need to be more conscientious and respectful when going into the mountains.

In reply to Goucho:


I agree with you.
But the final decision about what "poorly equipped" means would be made by a judge, and they might well decide that someone with experience making an educated decision about what to take, falls on the wrong side of that line.

In reply to martinturner:







Sorry but a gentle challenge back on that is that sometimes carrying too much is also a hazard. Weight saving is often about speed and agility, both of which can reduce risk.

I always wonder at the size of packs some carry on the LDWA 100 milers. I have the same kit...or I should have as I am fully complying with the same kit list. Yet my stuff fits in a pack half the size! I am sure that lighter kit makes my 30+hours of pain and pleasure much safer for my well being.

As far as I can see most people are pretty sensible given the huge numbers who now enjoy the outdoors. A few get it wrong, me included sometimes. No, mostly they don't expect rescue but sometimes it just happens ie others make the call for help anyway.

There are a few pretty unforgiving and judgemental folk on here and given their obvious experience that's a shame.

In reply to neil684:

It's a strange situation to be in but I found myself, while reading through the previous posts, agreeing with nearly all of them.

My personal preference is to make wild places the preserve of a tiny elite (me), but while I've never considered calling for help, I've had my share of epics caused by everything from incompetence and lack of preparation, through unforecast weather changes and lack of preparation, to injury (albeit minor - still got myself back to the car).

I wonder if the apparent rise of the numpty is simply an artifact caused by the huge increase in the overall number heading into the hills. I've a suspicion that there is a greater proportion of incompetents in the walking/cycling/climbing/canoeing/whatever population but without checking statistics I can't be sure. In any case I'll blame previous governments' health policies, Ray Mears and Bear Grylls. Mostly the governments though. And Grylls. And easy access to beguiling information.

It may be that 40 years ago there was 1 rescue in 100 outings while now there are 50 rescues in 5000. Of those fifty, a couple are bound to involve people who should have stayed at home (see the clothing, baggage & fitness of some people on top of Tryfan or any other popular & photogenic hill). Sadly there's a long step between ought and does but the proportion of fools rescued to well-qualified rescued possibly hasn't changed very much.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:



We are talking about children here. Children may simply not be physically able to continue walking the required distance; exhaustion/energy depletion/bonk, call it what you will.

If you walk the children to the point of exhaustion, you will leave them vulnerable to hypothermia, having expended their energy resources on walking.

Are the parents supposed to carry them thereafter? Is that not likely to lead to an accident?

There's no 'one size fits all' response to a situation. That's why MRTs have a scaled response, from telephone support, to single assister, to single team callout, to full-on, multi-team, multi-service callout. Their approach is 'rescue first, bollock (sorry, educate) later'. A wise and compassionate approach.

In reply to tony:


Once more you twist what I have said.

I have NEVER said that everyone who calls out the MRT is an idiot. Will you please read what I posted!

In reply to captain paranoia:

"Their approach is 'rescue first, bollock (sorry, educate) later'. A wise and compassionate approach."

Indeed.

Someone in an earlier post asked about the MRT view. Here's the personal view of one member of one team that's currently on its busiest year.

I'm an MRT member because I want to help people enjoy the outdoors safely. That includes educating people both by visits, awareness events etc. and by 'de-briefing clients'. Our most popular callout spots are easily accessible from roads and major population areas, and people are being encouraged to get out there and enjoy 'the great outdoors'. There's been a massive increase in the number of people heading up the highest hill in the area in the last 5 years. Inevitably some of those people will lack understanding of safe hillwalking and lack the kit. I don't consider them any less worthy of my help than a well-equipped and experienced hillwalker who's suffered an unfortunate accident.

I rarely judge. I'm not happy when parents risk their children, but when that happens it's very often through ignorance. The only time I've been actively angry was when an organised group was taken into a well-forecast dangerously extreme storm. Their leader did everything wrong and was pretty unrepentant about it. But it wasn't my job to de-brief them!

Generally I agree with Captain Kirk when he told Saavik in the turbo-lift that "we learn by doing". If we do everything right all the time, we don't learn much. I'm happy going and rescuing them, even the 'numpties'. Most of them will learn something from it.

As I said, this is a personal view and doesn't represent the views of my team or MREW

In reply to Welsh Kate:
That's definitely a two like post if I ever saw one

In reply to neil684:
I wonder if the real issues were more to do with the general attitude than the detail of what happened and equipment / skill.

The leader did not know who was down or not.

The person who made the call just sat back and ate and drank.

No one had the courtesy to say "thank you" or "sorry (for being a dick)".

Having a lost group is one thing- being an arse is another.

In reply to Welsh Kate:

Well said.

In reply to wercat:

It's coming up as unsafe link on my phone.

In reply to marsbar:
Try Google?

Basically Scala seem to be some kind of global software vendor and are running a developer conference this week at Rheged. The site seems to have a plan for outdoor activities over last weekend with "A big hike" in Patterdale on the Saturday for developers from all over the world with some advice about how to get there - seems to anticipate that some will not be used to the hills as it mentions a requirement to be reasonably fit....

I searched as I caught the last few seconds of something on local news yesterday about programmers at Rheged being linked to Patterdale MRT comments

"Activities such as walking, hiking and climbing may take place before and after the conference. Whilst organizers and other participants of Scala World may share their plans to be involved in these activities, they are open to the public, are undertaken on an individual basis, and are not organized by Propensive Events Ltd and should not be considered a part of the conference.

It is recommended that all participants take any necessary precautions whilst engaging in extra-curricular activities."

"On Saturday, it is a tradition that everyone heads into the beautiful hills of the Lake District for the Big Hike.

This year we will be taking a route starting from Patterdale, starting gently up the Grisedale Valley, and steepening as we approach Grisedale Tarn. The more althletic amongst us may feel confident taking the route up the right side of the valley, along Striding Edge to Helvellyn, before descending back down to meet the rest of the group at Grisedale Tarn for lunch.

The trail continues steeply upwards from Grisedale to the mountain of Fairfield as we take a ridge path between several beautiful valleys which fall away to either side. We continue without any steep inclines to the top of Red Screes, before starting the final, and steepest, descent to the Kirkstone Pass, where we should have time for a couple of drinks before the return bus arrives...."

coincidence?

In reply to wercat:

"For those of you missing out on Saturday's big hike"

Obviously, there was a comma missing...

"For those of you missing, out on Saturday's big hike..."

In reply to wercat:

Is that legal?

Can you organise something and then claim you're not organising anything and wash your hands of anything that goes wrong?

Whenever I've taken groups of friends into the hills, I've always assumed that, as the most experienced and qualified person setting the route and inviting people along, that I had some sort of implied duty of care.

In reply to DancingOnRock:




I guess the legality would come in from the point of view of the participants? If you presented an organised walk to them then you do owe a duty of care. Especially as the offer of the walk was in writing on behalf of a formal group of people (rather than just friends) even a clever lawyer might struggle to show that this organiser wasn't an organiser!

In reply to Wainers44:
Yes, I think it's worth looking at this as it's an example of what might be called an "invitation" to some outdoor activity where there is only a general intention without any organisation or resource put in and what might follow from that (if indeed this is the group mentioned on the news).

There is no leader or guide as such but because of the difference in local knowledge of participants, differences in outdoor experience, skills and ability some might think they are in someone's care when in fact it is a loose social activity. Easy to see how it can become a problem as computer boffins and other creative types can be independent minded and sometimes not aware of danger in unfamiliar settings.

I wonder if we'll see more such happenings as we go into World Heritage Status and more events are brought here for prestige.

In reply to wercat:
I tried to write something about computer boffins yesterday but couldn't seem to word it without being offensive! Let's just say it explained the situation to me. No offence to any computer boffins on UKC.

youtube.com/watch?v=QJY7dWfNpT8&

In reply to marsbar:

Aren't they reasearch scientists?

In reply to captain paranoia:


You might be, but I'm not

In reply to DancingOnRock:

There is a certain kind of thinking shared by a number of scientists, engineers, programmers etc etc that makes them bloody good at their job. However it can lead to logical decisions that seem impolite to others.

In reply to marsbar:
I thought the word "boffin" was a good one as apart from implying technical ability in matters obscure to a layperson it perhaps implies a bit of unworldliness without being too negative, in fact in a nice way.


perhaps an under used word these days

In reply to neil684:

The RNLI have similar problems like they guy a few years back who was attempting to cross the Atlantic in a bath tub. IIRC the RNLI had to rescue him, not just once, but three times. Each time he barely got more than a few miles from Dover harbour arm. Their biggest frustration was that neither they or the Coast Guard had any powers to stop him. Anyone can go to sea in anything they like, and you can't stop them. All the RNLI and Coast Guard can do is advise. Against this they have a duty to rescue if the "seafarer" gets into trouble......

In reply to wilkesley:


The problem is that being "lost" is a precursor to exhaustion and hypothermia. From an MR point of view isn't it best nipped in the bud with a happy if embarrassing ending for the victim, than becoming a body recovery?

In reply to marsbar:



That's a pretty outdated view of IT. It would even have been outdated when I did my computer science degree in the early 80s. The overwhelming number of IT people work in teams - sometimes pretty large ones. If they had the lack of interpersonal skills and 'real world' knowledge you imply then they simply wouldn't be able to function in a team environment. Of the hundreds of IT individuals I've worked with, I've probably only come across 2 or 3 that even approach the stereotype you are pushing. Which is a shame - I'd be delighted to be genuinely viewed as a boffin.

In reply to Hugh Mongous:

I've met and worked with a few in my time, some later than the 80s, who had a lot of technical knowledge but had a lack of common sense! But those, not necessarily the rule, apart, something very common is IT people having radically different views of what is a good idea in various circumstances, even if they are dealing with some thing or environment unfamiliar.

In reply to wercat:

If you are suggesting that IT people are significantly more likely to exhibit these characteristics than other people then I really don't agree. Don't mean to sound 'knarky' but if your basis for this is the number of such individuals you've met and worked with, then I'd be surprised if it's a fraction of those I've met and worked with.

Edit - admittedly, having been one of those people for over 35 years, I maybe don't have an unbiased point of view.

Double edit - need to get back to twiddling some bits now (literally!).

In reply to Trangia:


This is a very valid point. The one time I have called for a rescue was skiing when one member of the team suffered an ankle injury. He was "fine" but unable to ski and walking was very difficult. We were a group of five, well outside any ski area boundaries with a few miles still to go to the road. It was late afternoon and would be getting cold/dark soon. We were suitably equipped and I considered making a stretcher out of his skis and skiing him down but in the end decided to call the PGHM. There response was, "we are coming to get him, at the moment it's an easy heli flight and pick up for us compared to having to get all five of you on foot in the dark if something else happened trying to you trying to get him down". Glad I called them and by he time they'd got him and we'd skied to the road it was dark and cold but at least we didn't have an injured guy on a makeshift stretcher to deal with!

In reply to wercat:

I'm thinking boffins with exploding hair, 'it's not rocket science', etc

In reply to Hugh Mongous:

My experience is that a disproportionate number of programmers do compared to the general population. That doesn't include all IT staff and it's obviously anecdotal.

In reply to neil684

I came here to drink milk and kick ass.

And I've just finished my milk

In reply to marsbar:


So, in your world, who makes up the general population ? hairdressers ?

In reply to Hugh Mongous:
you'll notice I was very careful to avoid any negative comments about people - simply imagining how a situation might develop when you get a large party of technical folk, perhaps unfamiliar with hills, and each other, on to an unfamiliar hillside. possibly in an unfamiliar country where it is not clear to everyone that there is no one in charge. And just consider this, there might be C or Unix folk among them!


If I were of a more literary or creative turn I could imagine there might be a very good script in this ...

In reply to wercat:


No, I didn't think you were being negative, just wrong


Um, well, given that I'm currently trying to port a legacy device driver written in C to a Linux OS I'm thinking you believe I shouldn't be allowed out unaccompanied. Come to think of it....

In reply to Hugh Mongous:


" I'm thinking you believe I shouldn't be allowed out unaccompanied"

perhaps more that if there were a number of IT people, some fit for the outdoors and others less so, some with common sense and others not so, would the latter in each case willingly accept advice from the former, given that they may only just have met them?

In reply to wercat:

I wasn't referring to lack of common sense, I was referring to the really quite logical approach that someone else is looking for the lost people, I may as well eat my dinner. The social protocol dictates that if people are lost you look for them yourself and don't call out MRT while you eat.

In reply to marsbar:



perhaps the diner was doing the moral equivalent of creative accounting - file the party under a column headed "someone else's problem".

Not a defensible course of action if said person had any normal understanding of the situation or people ...

In reply to marsbar:

I don't know about that.

I've had kids overdue from hill walks. It's always best you don't become a casualty yourself. Have some dinner and then go ask if there is anything you can do to help.

Who knows what mountain experience the 'organisier' had? Sounds like they'd probably be better off staying out of the way to me. Certainly if my wife called out MRT for me, I wouldn't expect her to be coming out looking. She's better off coordinating my kids and communications between my companions worried relatives.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

As I said, a very logical decision. One that has been criticised a lot.