UKH

Zip wire seems to be gathering some opposition

https://m.facebook.com/zipoffThirlmere/?ref=content_filter

In reply to John Kelly:

Unfortunately its human nature to destroy things : (

In reply to John Kelly:

The one in Ogwen valley slate mines is amazing!

In reply to John Kelly:

The Lakes is just one completely unnatural place, a great big theme park for outdoorsy types.
I think a zip wire would be a great addition. A few more jobs for the locals too.

In reply to Lusk:


The vociferous objections to the Sirius mine in the Yorkshire Dales recently reminded me just how little the wealthy retired property owners in our national parks care about local employment for the local people.

In reply to wintertree:
That reminds me of the Tyndrum gold mine that was on BBC4 the other night.
ALL the locals wanted it, the only objectors were the (ivory tower (words used by the locals)) National Park big wigs, who don't even live there. It was eventually given the go ahead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01708v7/tales-from-the-national-parks...

In reply to Lusk:

yeah, keep the locals on minimum wage jobs

In reply to wintertree:

perhaps we should be thinking more of a secluded technology park specifically to increase local skill and pay levels levels

In reply to wercat:


Technology parks sit well near leading universities, big cities and decent transport links. None of these are well aligned to the lakes. You have a good point though; I can't imagine many of the jobs this would bring are high pay or high skill, and that's what is needed if young people are going to have a future there, instead of moving away and watching it become a wealthy nimby retirement community.

In reply to wintertree:
I'm not sure there is a shortage of work round here at low pay levels, but how do people get started in life if that is all there is? A glance at the Center Parcs website gives an idea of what you can get in the leisure industry.

Agreed about infrastructure - when you see how the North East has progressed since the 90s we look Eastern European here!

Perhaps, in areas where that is the only significant opportunity, the minimum wage should be elevated to prevent exploitation

In reply to John Kelly:

Thirlmere probably isn't the best place for it as the area is rather quiet. Surely there are better sites nearer the towns for such a venture? Some locals at Ogwen complained about the buzz of the cables but I wonder if they hear the cars driving up the valley road?

In reply to olddirtydoggy:
Perhaps along side the Silver Band Road above Knock?

There are remains of an old mines cableway there already

In reply to John Kelly:
I watched the BBC thing on Tyndrum and it wasn't as simple as locals wanting something and others not. The original plans shown were too intrusive. The plans given the go-ahead after changes were not. The National Park have a duty of care to the values of the National Park. My feeling is that a zip wire in Thirlmere would not be a good addition to the Lakes and will spoil the natural beauty. A zip wire per se is not an issue but the size and location of what is proposed is an issue. There are a large amount of local jobs already not filled (others currently filled are done so by the many hard-working Europeans so let's hope they continue to add value to our economy post-Brexit). So more 'low skilled' (read low pay) jobs is not as clear an issue as we may think.

In reply to lucozade:

Tyndum- Scotland is a very big country - however there are some lead? mines just above forest on helvelyn side thirlmere.

In reply to John Kelly:

So - a question.
Do you love the Lake District?
Why - because of what it is?
So why would you not leave it alone?

ca. 50,000 zipwire hooters and screamers could be located in a City or an industrial complex, then Thirlmere could be left alone.

In reply to John Kelly:
When I wrote my response to the consultation, which centred mainly on the noise of people screaming being completely unwelcome in an environment whose appeal is tranquillity, I chose tactically to omit that last time I went climbing on Lower Swirl, somebody found themselves unable to climb the route and started yelling obscenities at the top of her voice. Climbing is generally a quiet sport, save for the occasional yell of "safe" and "climb when ready", but if you climb with some of my mates (and me, maybe), you also have to factor in the tantrum.

Had she actually actually committed and fallen off, I expect there would have been screaming too...

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Maybe then there is a case for banning climbing throughout the district, I unfortunately let out an uncharacteristic whoop on Gimmer at about 9.30 last night.

In reply to John Kelly:

Yesterday was surprisingly good wasn't it? I was on Black Crag Wrynose, thrilled to bits with not only the impeccable rock and brilliant, technical climbing, but also the beautiful evening light. The showers weren't 'rain', they were 'only joking'. Gimmer was quite a brave choice though! What route gave rise to the whoop?

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Cracking day, warm Sun playing on NW arete, from the belay ledge watched a buzzard chasing a fawn across the fell, peregrines soaring, all under azure sky, managed Whits end direct with which I was unjustifiably please .

In reply to John Kelly:


Best E1 in the Lakes? Suppose that goes to Central Buttress really.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Have you not done Philistine?

In reply to Rick Graham:

Totalitarian!

In reply to Dave Cumberland and Rick Graham:

Both on the list. One advantage with the disgraceful weather here in Cumbria is that I have a ticklist of 3* routes which will keep me going until I'm dead, without ever having to climb harder than E1.

In reply to John Kelly:

It's about time Thirlmere got a MacDonalds

In reply to birdie num num:

Shake nugget large fries

In reply to Lusk:


Not far off the view of quite a few locals I know who live and work in or around the lakes. Ive certainly herd the term a"theme park" used many a time. Yeah, some areas are a bit more wild than others but most of it, for those used to it is just an out outdoorsy themed playground aimed at tourists.

Thirlmere is a man made water storage facility for the people of Manchester with a big stone dam at one end and a main A road along the side of it. For me who's in the lakes most days it's about as wild as dressed up industrial estate. The road on the other side makes a cycle path, and on sunny days you can get your beach towel out at sit on the rocky beach next to everyone else with thier disposable BBQ's going like it's Blackpool.

Seems an ideal area for a zip wire in my view, just like honister was, only Thirlmere has better access. For people bothered about noise, I doubt it'll be of any significance compared to the on going hum of traffic. Not that many people hang around there anyway, if you want tranquility you've got to a bit more than 50m from the road.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:


Or the blasting at the quarry...

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

This theme park comparison made with the Lakes is a fashionable and common one, but it's not one I recognise. The only bits which get anywhere close to theme parks are the forest parks at Whinlatter and Grizedale and in fairness to FC they are well hidden.


Thirlmere isn't busy. Cycle that lane between 1100 and 1500 on a dry day in the school hols and you will see some people. Outside of that it's pretty quiet. So there is a larger road on the other shore, just like along quite a few Lochs in the north. Does that make them comparable to an industrial estate? I don't think so. The failure to protect the area in the past should have been lesson enough to make sure we value and look after the place now.

There are places you could put a zip wire and provide much needed employment without impact to the national park. Threlkeld Quarry is one which immediately springs to mind and I bet there are others.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Couldn't agree more. We should be concentrating on improving the weather in the Lakes rather than building theme parks and zip wires here............

In reply to Wainers44:


Top of ravens straight down next to ODG, old and new dg are already a tourist circus.

Tilberthwaite?

Or perhaps just not bother, close a few bits off(back roads, ends of valleys etc.) to traffic entirely and make people walk and cycle more. Improve the quality of visits, not just keep adding to the quantity.

In reply to summo:

Those are the extreme choices...crazy development, white water rafting course down ODG anyone??...through to change nothing, limit visitors to wealthy ticket purchasers and employ very few.

I think there is a balance to be struck, but the old line about the Lakes being ruined already, being totally over run and past saving is not only unhelpful its downright wrong!

In reply to Wainers44:


Dam release for kayaking at treweryn is great. But the lakes man made resveriors have underground pipes to send their water to Manchester, so it's not viable.

.through to change nothing, limit visitors to wealthy ticket purchasers

Or only those who can afford the parking.


The occasional shriek from a person on the zip wire will add the background noise for the 1000s on coaches being shuttle between boat trips and afternoon teas at grasmere.

A few 1000miles of stone wall to contain sheep as they eat everything and anything is good. A wire and few buildings bad?

If the parks are being supposedly persevered as places for people to do activities that they can't in the city, then the parks need to move with the times? As those activities change? It can't all be about afternoon tea, wordsworth and potter.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

We (the locals) keep hearing this argument, relating to Thirlmere being an environment created by people therefore get-rich-quick types are entitled to abuse it as much as they like. Yes the whole Lake District (and the whole country, for that matter) has been shaped by the actions of people. Does this mean that it is pointless having any protected spaces where development is limited? Are zip wires and other theme park style rides the extent of our ambition for these beautiful landscapes?
You should go to Thirlmere sometime and look at what is there. I don't just mean walking up Helvellyn or doing a rock climb on Raven Crag. I mean walk around the whole place. It isn't just a spruce plantation. There is real diversity in the flora and fauna and you can still see the old traces of human habitation pre 1895. The natural history and the human history combine to give the place a real cultural value; something that should be acknowledged and supported instead of being sneared at.

In reply to John Kelly:
The planned cost to ride the zip wires is £50 per person. ... On asking Treetops why Thirlmere ... Their reply was to make money ... Regarding work possibilities there is not a large number going to be employed. The problem in the Lake District is accommodation for low paid workers ... for example the nearest town Keswick the houses have been bought up by rich out of towners for holiday homes or purchased for visitor high rental weekly rates.... 90 % of locals are against this project they feel there are more than enough visitors to the area already ... Finding any place to park a car in or out of the towns is just a major epic.

In reply to summo:






Maybe not (and I am pretty sure I never said it was). However moving with the times is one thing (aka better parking in the Villages...bus services....securing better public access in the periferal parts of the Park....servicing "new" pastimes ie mountain biking etc) putting development in the wrong place when perfectly viable and less damaging venues are available makes sense doesnt it?

In reply to Wainers44:
But what are the national parks for? To provide outdoor space for whatever activities the population want?

Or to artificially freeze time in Victorian mode as though the management of the land in that era was the pinnacle of what the human race can achieve?

What is the wrong place? it's a man made resv, with planted forest, near a busy A road, opposite an over grazed hill side?

Less damaging? What is being damaged?

The lakes needs more than tea towel shops for future next generations. They could build a cafe, some nature trails around the forest, biking, walking, orienteering... Perhaps stock the lake and offer fishing. A good cafe would capture helvellyn trade and ease the parking burden elsewhere in the towns

In reply to USBRIT:



By locals you mean the rich who've bought their little holiday home? Not those who are young and grew up there?

In reply to fionaj:

...but its easier for some to just trot out that the whole place is spoiled....busy....over developed etc and when you challenge that then tack is changed and you are a nimby who wants no development at all!

In reply to summo:
There is already a very good free bike way around the lake that we do on a regular basis . A forestry road above the main road that joins the quiet back road at the foot of Dunmail Raise to complete the ride All the things you mention are already there except the café ...instead of a café they plan to put a bike shop in the car park to rent out and sell bikes taking business away from the shops in Keswick that are already involved with this work. Every thing in the UK is man made as you should know..

In reply to summo:






All of those pastimes are good for the Park, generate employment and have their place. But so do places of peace and quiet and unobstructed views and suitable and perfectly sufficient catering facilities. You seem to know what the area needs, but the Kings Head offers tea and coffee to Helvellyn walkers...as does the Lodge in the Vale, neither of which are full to bursting?

Freeze what in Victorian times? A time of non-car owning wealthy elite who can build villa's where they like on the shores of the Lakes? I dont think the area is frozen like that now, or am I missing something?

In reply to summo:

No locals are those who have lived all or most of their lives in Keswick .... none of these working locals can afford to buy houses they most often rent . Most of the locals that are lucky to have a house did not buy them but they were left to them by their parents ... usually X council houses that were bought cheap many years back. All these houses when sold now are for local occupancy only.... but still not easy (almost impossible) to buy for locals as they sell for at least £220K.

In reply to USBRIT:


That's not strictly true.

There are a few areas of old native forest in the lakes and natural tarns where I think we could agree that any development should avoid, but it's not the case here.

Also I know all about the housing problem and how it develops, having lived next door in the dales NP for many years. Where it is often the holiday home buyers most against any future development, not the locals who spend all year there.

I wouldn't see it as taking work away from Keswick. A tourist might not want to hire a bike in town and cycle on busy roads, but they might hire one rurally in the forest, so it's a potential sales boost? If the roads were not so lethal a generic bike hire, between 5 or 6 shops/centres could be quite good, same models etc.. hire/drop off where you want to.

In reply to summo:

Your talking about some small clumps of old oak a couple of examples in the Newland Valley ...but the only thing that did survive was the root system with now gives rather miniature tree growth. Most trees which would have included them at one time were clear felled to produce charcoal for smelting the oar from the local mines . In fact very few folk know of these ancient bits of woodlands. .. Yes Treetops hiring out bikes would be a sales boast for United Utilities and the Treetop company. The Fells as we know them above the fenced tree line was created by sheep farming ..and continues as such today. Many places in the Lake District that have foreign softwoods trees are being clear felled and even some fenced in parts of the fells are being planted with traditional hard woods.... this also applies to parts of the Thirlmere forest.

In reply to John Kelly:

Where exactly in Thirlmere is this zipwire planned to be?

In reply to John Kelly:

In spite of the reservations expressed on here, I do think it is time that our National Parks (and AONBs too) were dragged into the 21st century. There is good potential for maybe 6-8 zips in each location I'd say - with obviously an absolute ceiling set at 10 (because too many would really spoil the experience for folk who'd travel long distances to visit these facilities).
Obviously, if there was such an expansion, there would need to be certification and a national body to look after the various operating protocols (H&S, insurances, connection to other prospective developments for these areas - like dry-tooling and top-roping venues etc).
The key will be the appointment of an adventurous CEO to oversee this growth and to finally realise the totally untapped potential that's staring us in the face.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I see that the UKC Irony Checker is not working today...

In reply to John Kelly:

In reply to John Kelly:

Terry Abraham has posted a good comment on the zip wire. I'm all for moving with the times but for me 'progression' isn't always 'progress'. While I'm fully committed to moving forward as I'm a very creative type, history is littered with examples of failed attempts at improvement and progress, many of which have had to be reversed. So a balance is always needed and serious thought and genuine consultation and working together is needed. The founding principles of National Parks are good ones and should give pause for thought in this case:

"1. Conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage. 2. Promote opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of national parks by the public. When national parks carry out these purposes they also have the duty to: Seek to foster the economic and social well-being of local communities within the national parks."

Alternatively (and in the spirit of irony), let's set up a big tower out of the top of Penrith castle and have a zip wire down the old rail line to Keswick...

In reply to USBRIT:


All the Keswick locals I knew, about 6 or 7 of them, left Keswick decades ago, because there was f*ck all for them to do, apart from working in tea and cake shops.

In reply to lucozade:

The tallest structure in the UK is a few miles north and west of Penrith. I'd suggest that would give an excellent zip ride, albeit with some interesting tingling sensations!

Following the Public Consulatation on 31st August and the BMC Meeting on 6th September, the Friends of the Lake District had this to say:

"Our position on the proposed zip wire remains unchanged. We do not consider that proposal would positively contribute to the purposes of the National Park as set out in The Environment Act 1995. These purposes are to:

Conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage
Promote opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of national parks by the public
Some may argue that the proposal could be an opportunity for the promotion and enjoyment of the National Park. However, given the level of detrimental impact this proposal could have on the landscape character visual amenity and tranquillity of the Thirlmere Valley we consider that at the very least it would create conflict between these two purposes.

The Sandford Principle, as revised in The Environment Act 1995, is clear in stating:

"If it appears that there is a conflict between those purposes, [the National Park Authority] shall attach greater weight to the purpose of conserving and enhancing the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage of the area".

Furthermore, we remain concerned regarding the precedent that this proposal would set for further inappropriate development in the Thirlmere Valley and the wider Lake District. Whilst the proposal currently being discussed does not include ancillary commercial development related to the zip wire or cycle route we are concerned that this will follow. We believe that National Parks are for everyone not just those who can afford to pay for ‘an experience’. The world class landscapes that warrant the designation as a National Park and World Heritage Site provide many free and wonderful experiences to be enjoyed in different ways."