trad climbing fall injuries

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 olddirtydoggy 19 Aug 2017
This week I took a fall on a crag route well within my grade. Turns out this little 4c is a notorious line for throwing people off despite it looking very easy Curving Crack (VS 4c) . Credit to my belayer for catching it and holding it as he shot upwards. I don't do trad falls but this one has left me with a swollen ankle and the back of my knee aching. I did find it shocking how quick it all was, gravity certainly does pull you down at an alarming pace so lessons learnt.

I'm wondering if trad falls often end with injuries or are there ways of managing falls to minimise them other than 'don't fall'? I'm sure in a few days I'll be back on it.
 luke glaister 19 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I've had 3 falls in 5 years. 2 were slips and unexpected and the other I pumped out on the topout. Top piece of gear held in all 3 and no injurys so I took the positives from it that the gear was good and moved on. Your be ok once pain free and back on rock. Just warm into the day slowly and your be back in no time.
 MischaHY 19 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Sounds like you're not used to falling off. Do you climb/fall on sport or indoors?
12
 wbo 19 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy: had you protected the route properly or had you, as the route was easy, only made a token effort? Most times you dont get hurt.

 Kevster 19 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Several points.
Falling off easy trad routes, there are often things to hit on the way down. Or the route is slabby, so the whole route to hit on the way.
Many trad routes that are popular seem to be on grit type crags, single pitch and often short. Therefore good ground fall opportunity. If they are longer, then there are frequent ledges as they follow natural features.
Good belayers are rare, dynamic belay on trad helps stop the sudden jolt of a snatched belay, especially on a fall low down or on a short route.


If comparing to sport, many climbers climb 6a or 6b. That's e1 to e3, which is not the same terrain as a severe or vs with respect to steepness or ledges.
Trad routes take longer to climb than sport per meter. Therefore more time on a route, more chance of an event happening on a trad route.

Sometimes you get injured, sometimes you get lucky. Can't always avoid fate, though one tries to put it in ones favour by risk management and skill.
1
OP olddirtydoggy 19 Aug 2017
Reading the logs on here about the route it is one that throws a lot of climbers off. I was tempted to climb feet high and it's quite clear now the feet should have been low.

In reply to MischaHY:

Hi, I'm not used to falling off and don't climb indoors until the cold drops and then it's bouldering every week. My problem is fear but also I'm a self employed builder and can't afford injuries.

In reply to wbo:

The route was protected with a cam at the last point of protection and it held fine.

Thanks for the replies so far.
 Offwidth 19 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
Quite funny that one of the site's traditional grading grumps is looking for moral support after falling off a pretty standard tougher VS jamming crack (given you've not been so badly hurt). I'd say the best thing to do with such routes is not fall: work on improving skill, protection and effort and if all else fails retreat; I'm really unconvinced practice helps that much and pushing on with more hope than wisdom often leads to such minor accidents at these grades (you tend to hit or clip things on less steep or compact routes and get such injuries). Falling practice is really for much harder routes than this. Those thinking its tech 5a should really work on exploring their jamming possibilities before they try real VS jamming classics like The File.

On the pretty short crux bit the best jam does need calm exploration and a high foot isn't such a bad idea if you can take weight that way without inducing strain or panic... depends on your skill set really.
Post edited at 12:32
6
 her_t6 19 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

A nice route! Could feel pretty hard if you don't do much jamming like myself. Glad you are ok. In terms of gear how much did you place to reduce the fall? From my experience on that route i could have placed basically my full rack of cams and some nuts, likely a placement every 30cm or so. I would say its a super safe route. The jams are amazing if a little awkward. I think a route like that is OK to fall on given you have good gear placements and good belayer. Just take some extra cams and lace it to death. You will get it next time i'm sure!
OP olddirtydoggy 19 Aug 2017
In reply to her_t6:

My belayer placed the gear but backed off his lead just before the last part of the traverse so I just went back up and expected to breeze it. I do feel I could have got another cam nearer to the fall but I didn't. That said, I doubt it would have made much difference, the fall wasn't huge but the impact against the rock on my ankle must have been unlucky. His placements were excellent and he caught me perfectly, much respect to him.
Thanks again for additional replies.
 her_t6 19 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Ah it sounds unlucky! Hope you have a speedy recovery and get back on the route soon, it will go next time.
 Dave Garnett 19 Aug 2017
In reply to Kevster:

> Therefore good ground fall opportunity... dynamic belay on trad helps stop the sudden jolt of a snatched belay, especially on a fall low down or on a short route.

Some expert trying for a soft catch is the last thing I want low down on a short route!
 JackM92 19 Aug 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Agreed, a softer catch is great when falling on a thick single rope, but there's so much more stretch in a half rope that I prefer a belayer to give very little extra slack.

A lot of people use the excuse of a soft catch for their lazy belaying...unless I'm above a microwire or on a traverse, I massively prefer a nice hard catch!

 Jon Stewart 19 Aug 2017
In reply to Kevster:

> Good belayers are rare, dynamic belay on trad helps stop the sudden jolt of a snatched belay, especially on a fall low down or on a short route.

I fell off a trad route the other day, low down. I banged my heel and it hurt for a couple of days, but since I was rather close to the ground, the last thing I wanted was a dynamic belay. If it's a fall low down then it probably won't be very nice, but please, please don't throw out more slack!
 Ciro 19 Aug 2017
In reply to JackM92:

> A lot of people use the excuse of a soft catch for their lazy belaying...unless I'm above a microwire or on a traverse, I massively prefer a nice hard catch!

There are certainly times when a hard catch is the lesser of two evils, but if the fall is clean and you're not going to hit the ground, why would you want to risk your ankles and the increased peak load on the gear?

1
 Kevster 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Jon Stewart:
There are horses for courses, and a good belayer will hopefully know when and how to minimise injury.
No one is perfect and accidents do happen.
But snatching a belay results in a hard landing. Feet and ankles will take more force.
Also snatching a belay will load the top piece over a greater range and will offer more chance of the gear ripping. If you're that low, a bouldering mat would be more appropriate?

Nothing personal Jon, just a general reply.
Post edited at 09:25
 JackM92 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Ciro:

Unless it's an RP, the gear is very unlikely to actually break. And it always shocks me how far I actually fall when rope stretch from high up on a pitch is added into the equation. On a route at Gogarth I fell with gear just below my feet and ended up a good 8m below it.
A lot of belayers massively underestimate just how far someone could fall, and therefore which protruding ledges etc are a danger. Yes there are some crags where a long fall would likely be very safe (Cromlech, Sharpnose) but these aren't all that common.

And from my experience of falling off on slate slabs excessive slack in the system just increases the speed at which you slap into the rock at!! Have trialled different amounts of slack from belayers during practice falls and the most comfortable/least heel bruising falls were with very little out.
 springfall2008 20 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Well I don't have a massive sample to go on but:

- My climbing partner fell off The Angel's Eye (HVS 5b) and ended up dangling upside down a couple of foot from the deck. No injury and certainly glad I didn't dynamically belay!

- I saw a guy working No Musketeers (Direct Finish) (E1 5c), he fell off twice taking quite a big lob and the second time he hurt his back (inverted during the fall).

I guess sometimes you get lucky and sometimes not!
 ianstevens 20 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I've probably fallen off at least 25 trad routes, if not more. I've only injured myself once, on the start of Comes the Dervish (E3 5c) before the runners - 6m to the ground from my feet and spent a few days on crutches, back climbing in 2 weeks.
 Wayne S 20 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Hi,

Gravity is a bit of a shock when I grabs, but it soon shocks less and less.

For what it's worth Curving Crack (VS 4c) is at the tricky end of VS, though for my money it is VS 4c (not a 5a move as I remember) but is of a definite style. Looking at your logbook I would say Great Harry (VS 4c) and Excalibur (VS 4c) are maybe a little harder. So maybe it was just a slip or a cue to practice jamming cracks a bit more.

I wouldn't worry so much, I have had one or two slips off routes that were unexpected. It's just a reminder why we faff with gear so much!

Trad climbers tend to be crap at taking falls, so might be worth practicing taking some longer falls at the climbing wall. That said, Curving Crack is just one of those routes best not to fall off towards the end of the traverse.

Wayne

 Jon Stewart 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Kevster:

In this instance I was about 6ft off the deck when the rope came tight. That 6ft is not to be f*cked with, I want to not hit the deck. The fall was way above pad height, and I'd only ever take a pad to grit if doing trad, not longer routes and more complex crags.

Soft catches are a good idea on long clean falls. Not hitting the deck is the over-riding priority when low down.
 MischaHY 21 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I can understand that fear mate! Injury is no joke when you're self-employed.

That said, a person used to falling on lead will fare better than one who isn't regardless of slabby or steep terrain.

When the cold kicks in I recommend taking the harness along to the local wall with a partner who knows how to belay properly (nice soft catch is best done by a gentle jump as the falling climber weights the rope) and taking a few falls - start from the middle of the wall first by clipping and then immediately jumping off, then build up into knees at clip then feet, then a little bit above.

It's a bit scary at first but builds great trust and means the next time you take a real whipper you'll know how to fall and be less likely to get injured.
 jkarran 21 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> In reply to MischaHY:
> Hi, I'm not used to falling off and don't climb indoors until the cold drops and then it's bouldering every week. My problem is fear but also I'm a self employed builder and can't afford injuries.

You're very unlikely to hurt yourself falling indoors if you choose your routes and falls carefully (more to the point build experience figuring out when pushing on is safe vs not worth the risk). Experience falling does help avoid injury outdoors in my experience, you better know what's coming, you can better read where you're going and plan for it, you're relaxed and prepared when you get there, you can make better assessments as to whether where you're going is totally unacceptable or just undesirable which feeds into decisions over where the gear needs to go and whether to back down, press on or even jump or rest, plan better and have another go. In short familiarity with falling will help keep you in one piece though the risk of a miscalculation or an out of the blue accident never quite goes away, for that there is insurance if it plays on your mind.

In lots of falls over the years I can think of only a very few that have resulted in injury (thankfully always fairly minor), there was no common thread linking them: hit ankle on a thin ledge near the top of a steep route, decked on my back on stretch from top of a microuroute, slipped off the top of solo microroute while not paying enough attention. All my other falls have resulted in nothing more serious than bruised soles and ego.
jk
 Jim Hamilton 21 Aug 2017
In reply to MischaHY:

> It's a bit scary at first but builds great trust and means the next time you take a real whipper you'll know how to fall and be less likely to get injured.

I remember a UKC article by a climbing celeb writing in the same vein and about the need to take falls when "trad" climbing etc, and then not long after seeing a report about them taking a ground fall and lucky to escape with relatively minor injuries!
 nniff 21 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
I always struggle with that 'fall familiarity' thing on indoor walls. IMHO a fall on trad is essentially a failure of all other viable options unless there are evident indications that there will be a good outcome.

To cut to the chase, if you fall off you will hit something hard, unless you have made good arrangements to prevent it. I rather think that people overlook that uncomfortable truth, lulled into a false sense of security by lots of very good-looking, easy to place gear and the advocates of fall familiarity. If the arrangements are inadequate, either by virtue of poor placements or an unhelpful configuration of the route and the fall, then it may well end badly.

Thus, when I found myself looking at an inadequate piece of gear yesterday and an uncertain outcome should it fail (more likely than not) I determined that I must not fall off - no ifs, no buts.
Post edited at 11:51
 GrahamD 21 Aug 2017
In reply to nniff:

I'm always slightly bemused by the lack of nuance people give to hitting things, including the floor. Decking in freefall is a world away from decking where the rope and gear have absorbed a big proportion of the fall (eg hitting the ground on rope stretch).
 nniff 21 Aug 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

There's no nuance between hitting the ground in freefall and hitting it on the stretch. There is a nuance between hitting the ground on the stretch and walking away or being carried away. Working out in advance which way it will go is usually too nuanced for most people to work out in extremis with confidence, even more so when the hard object is a protrusion rather than the ground and the amount of slack or stretch is not easy to ascertain.

On some routes, the nuances are calculated and documented - Gaia, for example. Falls off that don't always turn out as planned either.
 GrahamD 21 Aug 2017
In reply to nniff:

> There's no nuance between hitting the ground in freefall and hitting it on the stretch.

Of course there is. There is a whole range of possibility from barely touching the ground at all to hitting it at terminal velocity. To make a black and white hit the ground / did not hit the ground distinction makes the severity of a potential fall unclear (and therefore the liklihood of any serious injury).
 jkarran 21 Aug 2017
In reply to nniff:

> ...Working out in advance which way it will go is usually too nuanced for most people to work out in extremis with confidence, even more so when the hard object is a protrusion rather than the ground and the amount of slack or stretch is not easy to ascertain.

A lot of people in my experience are completely ignorant of the risks they take around rope stretch, possible runner failure and how far they'll go and past/onto what. Getting familiar with falling does not make one blind to those risks or blase about them.
jk
Post edited at 12:26
 stp 21 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

There are certain places, sometimes whole routes, where it's not safe to fall and its good to always be aware of where you will end up if you do fall. But but by and large most falls should not result in injury.

The fact that you rarely fall (and I'm guessing your belayer rarely holds falls) suggests that you must be pretty inexperienced with that situation and you therefore might not manage it as well as someone who takes falls on a routine basis.

I've rarely hurt myself whilst falling. One time was when a massive bit of rock came away in Pembroke. Another was due to an inexperienced belayer not giving me a soft belay.
 MischaHY 21 Aug 2017
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Care to name and shame?
 Mark Bannan 21 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

FWIW - my tuppence hap'orth:

I have led over 500 Trad routes over 20 years.

I have taken about 18 leader falls.

One injury (although serious, I have learned a lot from it).

Choosing well-protected climbs when climbing at or near my limit is the best way to avoid injury. This is a lesson I have generally known, but my 2016 fall has made me learn more about choice of safe routes and avoidance of wet rock.

M
 nniff 21 Aug 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

I think my point is that it's very difficult to predict the extent of an impact with accuracy before the event. One can rely on precedent (Gaia, for example) to hazard a guess, but that's a beta-loaded judgement. On sight? Different game altogether.
 nniff 21 Aug 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> A lot of people in my experience are completely ignorant of the risks they take around rope stretch, possible runner failure and how far they'll go and past/onto what. Getting familiar with falling does not make one blind to those risks or blase about them.

We may be violently agreeing on the material point - that of the difficulty of determining the outcome of a fall in advance because of the number of variables and the lack of awareness of the risk.

On fall familiarity and it's impact on the apprach to trad climbing - I suppose that I am in two minds. One half looks at the people climbing with a total lack of awareness of the consequences of a fall, and the other sees people whose physical ability is not reflected in their trad climbing standard. The former suggests that climbing and falling is perceived as safe: the latter says the opposite.
 GrahamD 21 Aug 2017
In reply to nniff:

> I think my point is that it's very difficult to predict the extent of an impact with accuracy before the event.

I agree. Very hard to predict / account for.

I'm really commenting on people using terms like decking out when what they really mean gently touched the floor on rope stretch. Allowing for shades of grey in debating the consequences of a fall.
 jkarran 21 Aug 2017
In reply to nniff:

> We may be violently agreeing on the material point - that of the difficulty of determining the outcome of a fall in advance because of the number of variables and the lack of awareness of the risk.

Maybe, maybe not quite the same point I agree there is apparently widespread lack of awareness of (or perhaps, less likely care for) what will happen in a fall but I disagree it's difficult to work out with experience, usually with some degree of certainty. Where uncertainty exists being aware of it and able to estimate the degree is useful. Taking lots of varied falls in a more controlled environment does give one or at least it gave me a good measure for where I would go and how it would feel for a particular familiar view down through my feet. Working out how likely the gear is to hold is a trad skill, part experience, part critical thinking and some basic engineering nous. Working out what happens should that top piece unclip or fail takes you back to your experience taking falls.

> On fall familiarity and it's impact on the apprach to trad climbing - I suppose that I am in two minds. One half looks at the people climbing with a total lack of awareness of the consequences of a fall, and the other sees people whose physical ability is not reflected in their trad climbing standard. The former suggests that climbing and falling is perceived as safe: the latter says the opposite.

I guess my best trad was a couple of F letter grades under my best sport onsight, not because the trad I climbed felt unsafe (I never enjoyed climbing dangerous/bold routes and did very few), more to do with the physical effort of placing good gear especially not skipping it when the going got tough and the convenience of being able to easily 'fail' on sport without turning the day into a messy gear retrieval session.
jk
OP olddirtydoggy 21 Aug 2017
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Thanks very much for all the replies, very useful. Good news for me is I'm nearly back to zero injury and can't wait to get back and nail that route. Much posted here I will take on board but also quite pleased with how we managed the route and the fall. I do feel my minor injuries were just one of those unlucky things. Another day I would have walked away with a bruise.
 Oliver Houston 22 Aug 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

This may have been mentioned already, but it's an easy route to get wrong, I ended up stood at the top of the jamming crack and found the crux to be balancing/falling round the corner. Watching others, it appears easier to stay hands in the crack until you get round.

OP, I think feet/ankle injuries are fairly common as they most often take the impact, whether it's swinging into the wall/plummeting to the floor.
 Offwidth 22 Aug 2017
In reply to Oliver Houston:

I agree with that, I said its tough VS but its a short crux and it is VS and the OP has form on UKC going on about soft grading. If you find a good jam amongst poorer holds don't leave it until you have to... surely you must have been relieved to find an overhead jam and kept it through to a semi-mantel

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...