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I've just bought a van (Renault trafic, almost new so no bodywork issues. Being a bit of a numpty and also not wanting to wreck it before I've even started...
I've got some (sickeningly expensive) TLX multi foil insulation (non penetrate foil on both sides with foil and fluffy layers in the middle) the idea that it acts as a vapour barrier and insulation in one. Is the foil ok to go right up against the bodywork or will this create stuck water leading to rust?
Cheers in advance.
JD
I've got some (sickeningly expensive) TLX multi foil insulation (non penetrate foil on both sides with foil and fluffy layers in the middle) the idea that it acts as a vapour barrier and insulation in one. Is the foil ok to go right up against the bodywork or will this create stuck water leading to rust?
Cheers in advance.
JD
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Check out SBMCC and some Facebook groups such as 'Vivaro, Trafic, Primastar and Movano Camper Vans & Day Vans', 'Self Build Campers And Real Life', 'Self Build Campervans' and 'sbmcc'.
Check out SBMCC and some Facebook groups such as 'Vivaro, Trafic, Primastar and Movano Camper Vans & Day Vans', 'Self Build Campers And Real Life', 'Self Build Campervans' and 'sbmcc'.
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In reply to Nicola:
Thanks, will take a look. I have been googling lots but not found a definitive answer on foil right up against van wall. Will keep digging.
By the way I'm probably going to have a fair bit of this stuff left over, if anybody would want to buy the remainder.
I'm also selling a cmax... any offers?!
Thanks, will take a look. I have been googling lots but not found a definitive answer on foil right up against van wall. Will keep digging.
By the way I'm probably going to have a fair bit of this stuff left over, if anybody would want to buy the remainder.
I'm also selling a cmax... any offers?!
Post edited at 16:20
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In reply to Jamming Dodger:
I wouldn't worry about this. In my experience vans rust underneath and around the wheel arches (i.e. the traditional locations that every vehicle rusts in) irrespective of the insulation used around the inside. In terms of moisture, it is more important to varnish/paint all the wood so that mould does not start to grow on it.
I wouldn't worry about this. In my experience vans rust underneath and around the wheel arches (i.e. the traditional locations that every vehicle rusts in) irrespective of the insulation used around the inside. In terms of moisture, it is more important to varnish/paint all the wood so that mould does not start to grow on it.
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In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Yeah, it's a minefield I found info was more focused on using the right glue. I chose foil bubble wrap glued with hi temp spray, then closed cell foam sealed with foil tape. Ignore anyone who advises using expandafoam, unless you never need to get into the void spaces to repair electrics.
Yeah, it's a minefield I found info was more focused on using the right glue. I chose foil bubble wrap glued with hi temp spray, then closed cell foam sealed with foil tape. Ignore anyone who advises using expandafoam, unless you never need to get into the void spaces to repair electrics.
In reply to Nicola:
There won't be that much electrical stuff going on apart from a split charge leisure battery set up for phone, 12v fridge; mainly cause I'm a scaredy cat and will worry about a botch job and setting the van on fire. It's just one more thing to break. Already clued up on not using expanding foam. I'm not going to go mad and try and insulate every nook and cranny. I just hope the super duper insulation will stave off the worst of the winter cold and stop it becoming a sauna in summer.
There won't be that much electrical stuff going on apart from a split charge leisure battery set up for phone, 12v fridge; mainly cause I'm a scaredy cat and will worry about a botch job and setting the van on fire. It's just one more thing to break. Already clued up on not using expanding foam. I'm not going to go mad and try and insulate every nook and cranny. I just hope the super duper insulation will stave off the worst of the winter cold and stop it becoming a sauna in summer.
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In reply to Nicola:
High-temp spray glue is certainly better than normal spray glue but it still doesn't actually work very well (although I was using celotex rigid sheets so they have less surface contact area than flexible materials). In the end my considered conclusion is that the insulation is only really held in place by the ply lining sheets that are actually screwed in place to hold them on.
High-temp spray glue is certainly better than normal spray glue but it still doesn't actually work very well (although I was using celotex rigid sheets so they have less surface contact area than flexible materials). In the end my considered conclusion is that the insulation is only really held in place by the ply lining sheets that are actually screwed in place to hold them on.
Post edited at 17:05
In reply to henwardian:
Argh no we're into glue now!! I was just going to slot the insulation in and put ply over the top... I do have some multi material glue but am hoping to not need to glue any insulation in place as I'd want to do a yearly dismantle and check for damage. Minefield indeed. Should've just bought a tent.
Argh no we're into glue now!! I was just going to slot the insulation in and put ply over the top... I do have some multi material glue but am hoping to not need to glue any insulation in place as I'd want to do a yearly dismantle and check for damage. Minefield indeed. Should've just bought a tent.
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Don't use expanding foam and don't worry on the details too much just get it insulated as best you can. Just apply common sense.
And definitely do not ask about insulation on self build campervand fb group unless you have a bowl of popcorn ready
Don't use expanding foam and don't worry on the details too much just get it insulated as best you can. Just apply common sense.
And definitely do not ask about insulation on self build campervand fb group unless you have a bowl of popcorn ready
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In reply to Jamming Dodger:
I can't help shed much light I'm afraid, but if it's any reassurance I'm on my second Trafic and they do seem to be extremely resistant to rust. I ran the first one up to mega mileage before I sold it, and apparently that one is also still going strong now.
I would tend to agree with henwardian that it's probably not something you need to worry about.
I can't help shed much light I'm afraid, but if it's any reassurance I'm on my second Trafic and they do seem to be extremely resistant to rust. I ran the first one up to mega mileage before I sold it, and apparently that one is also still going strong now.
I would tend to agree with henwardian that it's probably not something you need to worry about.
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In reply to Jamming Dodger:
That's right, If it's rigid, spray glue won't get enough contact area. I used thin bubble wrap against the metal skin. As long as you stop air getting to the skin, this will prevent condensation forming on the surface. Without this It shouldnt cause too much increase in rust as the metal is treated and painted. But you might need to consider the effects of damp behind the ply, this can lead to musty or mouldy conditions. This is why a vapour barrier needs to be airtight.
I was surprised how much condensation forms from a night spent in the winter.
That's right, If it's rigid, spray glue won't get enough contact area. I used thin bubble wrap against the metal skin. As long as you stop air getting to the skin, this will prevent condensation forming on the surface. Without this It shouldnt cause too much increase in rust as the metal is treated and painted. But you might need to consider the effects of damp behind the ply, this can lead to musty or mouldy conditions. This is why a vapour barrier needs to be airtight.
I was surprised how much condensation forms from a night spent in the winter.
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
I sound proofed mine first in 2 stages then there wasn't much room for insulation so just stuffed that BnQ recycled plastic stuff everywhere there were crevices. Seemed easy to work with and didn't itch at all.
I'd highly recommend sound proofing first if you have a panel van. Made a big difference.
I sound proofed mine first in 2 stages then there wasn't much room for insulation so just stuffed that BnQ recycled plastic stuff everywhere there were crevices. Seemed easy to work with and didn't itch at all.
I'd highly recommend sound proofing first if you have a panel van. Made a big difference.
In reply to snoop6060:
This stuff I've bought is pretty thin. Looks like a space duvet. Not to bothered about noise so much.
This stuff I've bought is pretty thin. Looks like a space duvet. Not to bothered about noise so much.
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Generally speaking thin stuff is rubbish for thermal insulation. The only decently thin product these days is 'Optim-R' by Kingspan which is essentially a rigid vacuum. The only problem is it's rectangular, and for the obvious reason, can't be cut to shape! It needs to be protected however on the perimeter and above/below.I seem to recall that they do bespoke shapes but it'd be cost prohibitive for your situation. In terms of achieving the best u-value though, that's without doubt the best thing out there.
http://www.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/Products/Optim-R/Optim-R/Overview.aspx
Acoustic insulation typically requires density, so the best way to achieve that (if you were seeking to improve this) is to add sheets of soundblock or plasterboard, something like that, ideally bonded behind your ply lining.
Generally speaking thin stuff is rubbish for thermal insulation. The only decently thin product these days is 'Optim-R' by Kingspan which is essentially a rigid vacuum. The only problem is it's rectangular, and for the obvious reason, can't be cut to shape! It needs to be protected however on the perimeter and above/below.I seem to recall that they do bespoke shapes but it'd be cost prohibitive for your situation. In terms of achieving the best u-value though, that's without doubt the best thing out there.
http://www.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/Products/Optim-R/Optim-R/Overview.aspx
Acoustic insulation typically requires density, so the best way to achieve that (if you were seeking to improve this) is to add sheets of soundblock or plasterboard, something like that, ideally bonded behind your ply lining.
Post edited at 21:11
In reply to Fraser:
I'm trying to keep the weight down so plasterboard isn't going to be a goer, and would probably flex and crack.google TLX silver. It has a pretty good U rating although only figures are for its installation in a building and assuming its installed as they recommend.
Anyway we seem to have got a bit departed in the thread from the original question: can it be put up against the van wall with no I'll effect. The answer seems to be a "don't worry about it" so I think I'll crack on with it.
Thanks for all the help guys. JD
I'm trying to keep the weight down so plasterboard isn't going to be a goer, and would probably flex and crack.google TLX silver. It has a pretty good U rating although only figures are for its installation in a building and assuming its installed as they recommend.
Anyway we seem to have got a bit departed in the thread from the original question: can it be put up against the van wall with no I'll effect. The answer seems to be a "don't worry about it" so I think I'll crack on with it.
Thanks for all the help guys. JD
Post edited at 21:28
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Sorry, missed the TLX ref in your OP! Thought you were talking about super skinny stuff at 5mm or so, hence the comment implying it not being great. Personally I think p/b would be okay bonded to ply, but you're not looking for acoustic improvements so it's academic. Good luck with the upgrade
Sorry, missed the TLX ref in your OP! Thought you were talking about super skinny stuff at 5mm or so, hence the comment implying it not being great. Personally I think p/b would be okay bonded to ply, but you're not looking for acoustic improvements so it's academic. Good luck with the upgrade
In reply to Fraser:
Yeah I've seen the bubble wrap stuff and apart from being surprisingly expensive I'd have serious doubts over its effectiveness. Will post up before and after pics in a grand reveal of my pimped out van (probably take a while)
Yeah I've seen the bubble wrap stuff and apart from being surprisingly expensive I'd have serious doubts over its effectiveness. Will post up before and after pics in a grand reveal of my pimped out van (probably take a while)
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Same as with buildings - normally you put the foil facing inwards to reflect heat back into the space, and the foam provides a layer behind to reduce the thermal gradient, and thus risks of condensation.
Same as with buildings - normally you put the foil facing inwards to reflect heat back into the space, and the foam provides a layer behind to reduce the thermal gradient, and thus risks of condensation.
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Going from my knowledge of buildings (I've never fitted out a van), the important thing will be to tape the joints to ensure a complete vapour barrier on the inside. The van already has a vapour barrier on the outside, so as long as vapour can't enter your insulation, you should not be getting any condensation forming against the inside of the body panels. I don't think the way you fix the insulation will affect this, whether with glue or just by friction and pressure from the internal lining.
Going from my knowledge of buildings (I've never fitted out a van), the important thing will be to tape the joints to ensure a complete vapour barrier on the inside. The van already has a vapour barrier on the outside, so as long as vapour can't enter your insulation, you should not be getting any condensation forming against the inside of the body panels. I don't think the way you fix the insulation will affect this, whether with glue or just by friction and pressure from the internal lining.
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In reply to Jamming Dodger:
I suppose it depends on how you do your conversion but unless it is really basic then taking everything apart right back to the bare metal shell and then re-assembling it would take a LONG time, my first conversion used no glue and it took me basically a whole day to take it apart when I was decommissioning it (and that was without due care and attention because I wasn't reassembling afterwards). Personally I wouldn't bother ever doing a full take-down and rebuild to check behind the walls; I just fix things when they break and assume that everything else is ok.
I don't think getting the sound or thermal insulation exactly right is critical in most van conversions because you still have lots of windows and almost certainly lots of ribs of the metal shell that are not easy to insulate without bringing the walls in quite a bit and making the inside space significantly smaller. So the finished article will still transmit quite a lot of heat and sound no matter how hard you try.
Random extra tip - electrical stuff breaks. Between two conversions, I've had solar panels, fuse board, LED lights, leisure battery, switch board, solar converter, switches, fuses, USB socket and a tap micro-switch all break (and that's just what I remember) so make absolutely sure that all your electrical stuff is in a place where you can access it and you can replace parts of it. I'm also starting to realise that for some things it might well worth paying a little more to get them from a reputable retailer rather than ebay.
I suppose it depends on how you do your conversion but unless it is really basic then taking everything apart right back to the bare metal shell and then re-assembling it would take a LONG time, my first conversion used no glue and it took me basically a whole day to take it apart when I was decommissioning it (and that was without due care and attention because I wasn't reassembling afterwards). Personally I wouldn't bother ever doing a full take-down and rebuild to check behind the walls; I just fix things when they break and assume that everything else is ok.
I don't think getting the sound or thermal insulation exactly right is critical in most van conversions because you still have lots of windows and almost certainly lots of ribs of the metal shell that are not easy to insulate without bringing the walls in quite a bit and making the inside space significantly smaller. So the finished article will still transmit quite a lot of heat and sound no matter how hard you try.
Random extra tip - electrical stuff breaks. Between two conversions, I've had solar panels, fuse board, LED lights, leisure battery, switch board, solar converter, switches, fuses, USB socket and a tap micro-switch all break (and that's just what I remember) so make absolutely sure that all your electrical stuff is in a place where you can access it and you can replace parts of it. I'm also starting to realise that for some things it might well worth paying a little more to get them from a reputable retailer rather than ebay.
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In reply to Jimbo C:
I agree with that- stop the moisture getting out of the inevitably humid living area.
My van has kingspan sheets all round underneath the ply, joined with foil tape. An occasional bit of the no-itch rockwool type insulation too in odd shaped areas. Then, over the ply, a layer of thin aluminised bubble wrap type insulation, again taped to provide a vapour barrier and to reflect heat back in. And over that the whole thing is lined with lightweight lining carpet glued on with high temp glue.
It works pretty well but did take a fair bit of work to do.
I agree with that- stop the moisture getting out of the inevitably humid living area.
My van has kingspan sheets all round underneath the ply, joined with foil tape. An occasional bit of the no-itch rockwool type insulation too in odd shaped areas. Then, over the ply, a layer of thin aluminised bubble wrap type insulation, again taped to provide a vapour barrier and to reflect heat back in. And over that the whole thing is lined with lightweight lining carpet glued on with high temp glue.
It works pretty well but did take a fair bit of work to do.
Post edited at 07:34
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
You'll undoubtedly get stuck water as the moisture in the tiny air gaps will condense on the metal walls. In a house you'd leave a biggish gap for it to evaporate into and preferably some ventilation. I guess it might not matter as you have foil both sides, as long as you're sure there's no gaps. My last car rusted through so I wouldn't trust it.
Caveat, never done a van but I've done a dormer window which is the devil's work.
You'll undoubtedly get stuck water as the moisture in the tiny air gaps will condense on the metal walls. In a house you'd leave a biggish gap for it to evaporate into and preferably some ventilation. I guess it might not matter as you have foil both sides, as long as you're sure there's no gaps. My last car rusted through so I wouldn't trust it.
Caveat, never done a van but I've done a dormer window which is the devil's work.
In reply to XXXX:
Ok, I think I have a plan: I'm going to glue a large uncut sheet to the ribs, which will leave approx a 1" gap between foil and van skin, then ply over the insulation so the ply is snug against the insulation. Varnishing the ply as suggested before to stop water seeping through the ply, and alu taping gaps. I've got loads of time to do a proper job. I do have a tendency to over engineer things but reckon this will be adequate and keep the walls as dry as poss. May install a couple of wall vents to the outside as well (hello power tools) to vent away and straggly drips and use the cut out as an "inspection chamber". I know I'm a bit of a worrier, and if it was a beaten up 200k on the clock piece of crap I prob wouldn't even care to ask, but it's not. Thanks again for all the useful suggestions
Ok, I think I have a plan: I'm going to glue a large uncut sheet to the ribs, which will leave approx a 1" gap between foil and van skin, then ply over the insulation so the ply is snug against the insulation. Varnishing the ply as suggested before to stop water seeping through the ply, and alu taping gaps. I've got loads of time to do a proper job. I do have a tendency to over engineer things but reckon this will be adequate and keep the walls as dry as poss. May install a couple of wall vents to the outside as well (hello power tools) to vent away and straggly drips and use the cut out as an "inspection chamber". I know I'm a bit of a worrier, and if it was a beaten up 200k on the clock piece of crap I prob wouldn't even care to ask, but it's not. Thanks again for all the useful suggestions
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Does anyone bother putting indicating dessicant in the bottom of their void spaces? I suspect that might be worthwhile.
Glue - marine polyurethane adhesive such as Sikaflex 291 is probably the most sensible thing to use, but be warned that it's virtually impossible to unstick it without breaking one or both of the things you've stuck together.
Does anyone bother putting indicating dessicant in the bottom of their void spaces? I suspect that might be worthwhile.
Glue - marine polyurethane adhesive such as Sikaflex 291 is probably the most sensible thing to use, but be warned that it's virtually impossible to unstick it without breaking one or both of the things you've stuck together.
In reply to Toerag:
Yeah but when that desiccant has done it's job how do you replace it? Also going to get a little dehumidifier crystal box thing just to help things along. Although last time I got one of those a certain someone left it on the side and then drove, leading to a messy spill and trying to stop the dogs licking up the crystals. I'm more sensible than that and will secure it and replace as needed. Windows being fitted next week. Can't wait!
Yeah but when that desiccant has done it's job how do you replace it? Also going to get a little dehumidifier crystal box thing just to help things along. Although last time I got one of those a certain someone left it on the side and then drove, leading to a messy spill and trying to stop the dogs licking up the crystals. I'm more sensible than that and will secure it and replace as needed. Windows being fitted next week. Can't wait!
Post edited at 09:03
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In reply to Jamming Dodger:
If you haven't come across it already, and aren't fed up with other people's suggestions, there's a nice video hereabouts showing a van conversion project (by 'nathan', I think - he's also been posting some ace Yosemite films recently). Running all the wiring through flexible piping I thought was a particularly good idea - then you could fill with expansion foam and still be able to re-wire or add cables
If you haven't come across it already, and aren't fed up with other people's suggestions, there's a nice video hereabouts showing a van conversion project (by 'nathan', I think - he's also been posting some ace Yosemite films recently). Running all the wiring through flexible piping I thought was a particularly good idea - then you could fill with expansion foam and still be able to re-wire or add cables
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Have you considered a Flettner? http://www.flettner.co.uk/
(Or, more generally a "wind powered ventilator" - there are other makes out there with a slightly lower profile than either model of Flettner.)
The downside is that it adds a few inches to the overall height of the vehicle, the upside is that it acts as an extractor fan and is, I believe, more effective at keeping condensation down than wall vents.
Oh, and of course it would involve cutting a hole in the roof - potentially very scary!
> May install a couple of wall vents to the outside as well ...
Have you considered a Flettner? http://www.flettner.co.uk/
(Or, more generally a "wind powered ventilator" - there are other makes out there with a slightly lower profile than either model of Flettner.)
The downside is that it adds a few inches to the overall height of the vehicle, the upside is that it acts as an extractor fan and is, I believe, more effective at keeping condensation down than wall vents.
Oh, and of course it would involve cutting a hole in the roof - potentially very scary!
In reply to Jamming Dodger:
If you're anxious about that, just cut some thin foam, rubber or other thermally inert material to use as a separating thermal barrier. The actual fixings (screws) themselves can essentially be ignored in terms of thermal bridging they create.
> Oh but then I'll have bridging via the ribs. Arrghhhh!!
If you're anxious about that, just cut some thin foam, rubber or other thermally inert material to use as a separating thermal barrier. The actual fixings (screws) themselves can essentially be ignored in terms of thermal bridging they create.
In reply to deepsoup:
The vent is more for the outer skin keeping dry. I'm not really wanting to get a roof vent. They never look good and I'll have an opening window next to the hob.
I won't be running any electrics beyond the leisure battery to the water pump. I'm going to use rechargeable LED lights. Got one in my understairs cupboard. It lasts forever, is brighter than the sun and was cheap as chips.
To give you an idea of my level of confidence about my abilities, one of the first things I bought for the van was a fire extinguisher. Enough said...
The vent is more for the outer skin keeping dry. I'm not really wanting to get a roof vent. They never look good and I'll have an opening window next to the hob.
I won't be running any electrics beyond the leisure battery to the water pump. I'm going to use rechargeable LED lights. Got one in my understairs cupboard. It lasts forever, is brighter than the sun and was cheap as chips.
To give you an idea of my level of confidence about my abilities, one of the first things I bought for the van was a fire extinguisher. Enough said...
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In reply to Jamming Dodger:
Hey havent had time to read through all this forum post, but have extensive experience of the TLX product. (Just ordered 70 rolls for my latest project)
One thing to note, is that it requires a air gap on both sides for it to be truly effective. If there is no room for an air gap on at least one side, you will be far better off using a PIR type insulation. Truth be told, this product works best when used in combination with a traditional type insulation like PIR board or jablite etc,
Also, if using it as a vapour barrier, be sure to seal your joints with the correct tape, or it doesn't work as an air barrier!
Sorry if this has all been said already.
Hey havent had time to read through all this forum post, but have extensive experience of the TLX product. (Just ordered 70 rolls for my latest project)
One thing to note, is that it requires a air gap on both sides for it to be truly effective. If there is no room for an air gap on at least one side, you will be far better off using a PIR type insulation. Truth be told, this product works best when used in combination with a traditional type insulation like PIR board or jablite etc,
Also, if using it as a vapour barrier, be sure to seal your joints with the correct tape, or it doesn't work as an air barrier!
Sorry if this has all been said already.
In reply to deepsoup:
They're popular on small boats and delivery vans here. Air circulation can only be a good thing in a camper. I guess there's nothing to stop you fitting one on the side of the van if height is an issue.
> Have you considered a Flettner? http://www.flettner.co.uk/
and is, I believe, more effective at keeping condensation down than wall vents.They're popular on small boats and delivery vans here. Air circulation can only be a good thing in a camper. I guess there's nothing to stop you fitting one on the side of the van if height is an issue.
Post edited at 10:11
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