Via Ferrata gear

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 Vics 02 Jul 2017
Me and my partner are off to the Dolomites in August and want to try a via ferrata. We are taking minimal gear but were wondering what that should be. An old climbing friend said we could get away a few slings and screw gates rather than lanyards. Can anyone comment on this please?
Does anyone have experience of hiring gear in the dolomites?
Cheers Vic
 GridNorth 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

Absolutely not. You should use the proper via ferrata lanyards. They are designed to absorb high impact loads, slings are not.

I'll say it again: Do NOT use slings. I can't over emphasis how bad this is. Your climbing friends should know better.

Al
 duchessofmalfi 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

I'd like to be the first to declare "troll".

Just in case you are serious: get the proper kit - it is cheap - harness, lanyard, helmet.
 Dark-Cloud 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:
You can get way with a few slings if your intention is dying if you fall.

Buy a proper lanyard, any of the models on Rock and Run will suffice

https://rockrun.com/collections/via-ferrata-cable-kits

Or if this is a troll 1/10
Post edited at 21:17
 Jenny C 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

Minimal gear is helmet, harness and proper vf lanyards.

As others have said improvised lanyards are not safe/suitable. If you don't want to buy, lanyards (or the full compliment of gear) can be hired locally.
 Toerag 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Jenny C:

> Minimal gear is helmet, harness and proper vf lanyards.

Sensible gear is the above plus fingerless leather gloves. Plenty of frayed cable ends to spear you in the side of your hand in the Dollies.

 Greasy Prusiks 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

Definitely not. Using slings on via ferrata is incredibly dangerous, you'd be better off not using any safety kit at all.

Buy/hire a proper harness and VF kit. They're only expensive in the shop, if you fall on it you'd happily swap your house for one.
 John Kelly 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Don't get how that could possibly be true, there is a big chunk of via ferrata ( horizontal sections)where a short rope lanyard would be fine in a fall but there are steep sections where you can get very high fall factors and need load limiting device to fall 'safely' - sorry, imo
Post edited at 21:34
2
 beardy mike 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

Your friend is quite frankly an idiot who knows feck all. That might sound strong but quite honestly if you fall on a vf with slings and some slings you may as well just not bother clipping because the end result will be approximately the same. Standard carabiners will simply fail when sideloaded, slings are static with effectively no shock absorption and so a fall will easily generate factor 2-3 falls which will snap the slings and/or your body. For the sake of hiring kits for a few euro a day you would be worthy of a Darwin award, or at least an honourable mention. Don't do it. VF biners are K rated for side impact, lanyards reduce the impact to a survivable level but vf falls remain extremely serious, to the extent that you really want to avoid one at all costs.
 Greasy Prusiks 02 Jul 2017
In reply to John Kelly:

Sorry I probably didn't express that very clearly. I meant it's better to be using correct safety equipment than having false confidence in something that could so easily fail.

Even on the horizontal it could be pretty unhealthy to fall on a sling but that's completely academic.
OP Vics 02 Jul 2017
My friend put up some of the most famous serious gritstone first ascents in the Peak District, back in the 70's. He's far from being an idiot. He is just old school I suspect.
Many thanks for all replies. I am not one for risking life and limb so thought I'd double check first. We won't be using slings!
2
 John Kelly 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Sorry I'm feeling very pedantic tonight
Slings - I totally agree, edited and went lanyard
I'll go to bed now, tired and emotional
1
 beardy mike 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

Sorry, it doesn't matter if he was Alex bloomin honnold, I would say the same thing. He does not understand the seriousness of what he's suggested. He is endangering you life by making such a suggestion which by default categorises him as a clueless idiot. Seriously, there is no good end to a fall with the kit he's suggested.
 Greasy Prusiks 02 Jul 2017
In reply to John Kelly:

Don't worry about it!

I think a big VF fall is going to be pretty unpleasant whatever though.
Removed User 03 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

All talk about lanyards vs. slings aside (yes, lanyards were developed for a reason, use them!) - having some slings racked to locking carabiners on your harness on a VF doesn't seem to be the worst idea, for the simple scenario of just taking a little rest somewhere (or securing someone freaking out on a steeper section, or whatever). Hook them to an anchor or bit of the cable where the carabiner can't just slide off downhill, lean back, enjoy the view. Because as far as I know the VF lanyards themselves are not supposed to be rested on.
 Neil Williams 03 Jul 2017
In reply to Removed UserFuchs:
Most lanyards these days have an extra loop for a krab for resting.

As to the rest of it DO NOT use rope slings, dyneema slings or similar. If you do, there is a very high chance a fall will kill you - either the gear will fail or you will (23kN would be like having a medium sized family car placed onto you in force terms). Seriously.

The only safe way to do a VF without a VF kit would be to climb it with a rope as if it were a multipitch, but then you'll just annoy people by going unnecessarily slowly. If it's a hard one you might want a rope anyway so you can pitch any bit that is *really* hard, as a fall onto a VF lanyard is still going to hurt.

By the way if you're heavy ensure you get a recent lanyard - the climber weight standard has recently been upped from 100kg to I think 120.
Post edited at 14:00
 Trangia 03 Jul 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

I agree 100%

I always think that even with vf lanyards a fall on a vf is potentially very serious and nasty. So much to hit on the way down, and and then the problems of others trying to help, particularly if you are unconscious or injured, and dangling. Even vf lanyards can snap.

Potentially a vf fall seems a lot more serious than a leader fall in rock climbing.

I think the moral here is DON'T fall! Like the old adage "The Leader Doesn't Fall" in the days before modern protection.
 beardy mike 03 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

Actually a 120kg climber on an old lanyard is a much smaller problem than a light climber. Light climbers much high impact forces, whereas a heavy climber will rip the whole sling and then see a reasonable impact at the end... a 40kg climber will see more or less double the impact of an 80kg climber.
 zebidee 03 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

> Actually a 120kg climber on an old lanyard is a much smaller problem than a light climber. Light climbers much high impact forces, whereas a heavy climber will rip the whole sling and then see a reasonable impact at the end... a 40kg climber will see more or less double the impact of an 80kg climber.

Had to re-read that to understand what you were saying ...

The 40kg climber isn't going to tear the rip-strip on the lanyard (not sling) and so will suffer the full impact upon their body; whereas the heavier climber is hitting the lanyard with more force so the rip-strip is more likely to tear.

Correct?
 beardy mike 03 Jul 2017
In reply to zebidee:
Yes correct. The stitching is set to rip at a certain energy level. The down side of the vast majority of the new systems is that the way they cope with lower energy falls (small climbers) is that the eventual ripped length is longer for a high energy fall - weaker stitching so that the low energy starts the rip, but longer so that it can absorb the high energy falls. Which leaves 90% of the users who are large males open to longer falls and a higher likelihood of hitting a ledge etc...
Post edited at 18:04
 CPH 03 Jul 2017
In reply to Toerag:

Gloves yes; but you can easily take a lot of skin off your fingers with fingerless gloves. I now use full finger gloves (if you now what I mean!).
Removed User 03 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Most lanyards these days have an extra loop for a krab for resting.

Most that I've seen online don't seem to have one? The relatively new one I used some time ago in Slovenia didn't have one either (belonged to a friend).
 Neil Williams 03 Jul 2017
In reply to Removed UserFuchs:

I stand corrected, it does look like most now *don't*, they did when I bought one a few years ago. I wonder why the change.
 Neil Williams 03 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:
> Yes correct. The stitching is set to rip at a certain energy level. The down side of the vast majority of the new systems is that the way they cope with lower energy falls (small climbers) is that the eventual ripped length is longer for a high energy fall - weaker stitching so that the low energy starts the rip, but longer so that it can absorb the high energy falls. Which leaves 90% of the users who are large males open to longer falls and a higher likelihood of hitting a ledge etc...

I did wonder when they changed it (as all-up with rucksack etc I'm probably well over 130kg) whether they should actually have offered two "sizes" for different weights. I would rather the slightly longer fall to avoid the heavy stop and possible equipment failure at the end (though do accept a ledge may be a heavy stop too), but a lighter person may see no benefit of that. I have used an "old style" one with the 100kg limit, but was extra-careful about when to move up the wire and on awkward moves so as to avoid long fall potential.

I suppose overall it needs to be borne in mind that a VF kit exists to provide the difference between "dead at the bottom of the mountain" and "injured and requiring helicopter rescue", and if you genuinely think you are likely to fall off it's time to get a rope out.
Post edited at 23:22
Removed User 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I stand corrected, it does look like most now *don't*, they did when I bought one a few years ago. I wonder why the change.

Maybe one too many unsuspecting novice attached themselves to something they weren't supposed to attach themselves to? Random rusty bolt, sloping cable, vegetation ...
 Toerag 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Removed UserFuchs:
....or were clipped into the wire with it when they fell, thus negating the shock absorber. (That's assuming the resting point wasn't attached to the shock absorbing section).
Post edited at 01:32
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

You have a fundamental misunderstanding, it was not a 100kg limit, it was a test conducted with an 80kg mass which meant that that was what all manufacturers aimed for. As I said, 120kg means the energy is reduced to an acceptable level by the time the entire system is deployed andfailure equipment doesn't occur. Small weight's don't even start makinging it effectively a static sling.

As for having two different standards, what happens when you rent the wrong one and you (and the shop keeper) have feck all clue what they're doing and don't realise? = dead. Hence one standard.
 Gone 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

We have Edelrid Varios for the kids. They have an adjustable braking effect - you dial in the user's weight. Expensive but good for light humans.
 illepo 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

Has anyone any experience using the following (Kong kisa rope brake): https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/f8-ferrata-kit/p326-kisa

I'm interested in this method as it is reusable, whereas with the lanyards are basically just slings once you've fallen on them, and thus dangerous as others have explained above.
You can set up to give preferred braking with rope diameter/number of wraps.
I'll be going to the Dolomites soon so interested in responses.
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

It depends what you mean by "get away with", really. I've never used anything other than slings on easy VFs but then I've always treated their protection on steep ground as non existent (IE you treat steep bits as though you were soloing).

These days I'd go for the much higher protection afforded by proper kit for all the reasons discussed above.
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to illepo:

Yes - they work absolutely fine. The one proviso is that you regularly check and change the rope you use because as the rope wears gainst rock etc, it fluffs up and friction is increased until such a time as they stop working. All good as long as you are vigilent. But what must be stressed is that if you have deployed your kit, you have bigger worries than whether you can reuse your kit or whether you'll be getting off the hill without the aid of a helicopter.
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

> These days I'd go for the actual protection afforded by proper kit for all the reasons discussed above.

There you go - fixed that for you
1
 illepo 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

ah, so a via ferreta fall is quite serious? i had thought it was more like climbing, i'll research further.
 barry donovan 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:
'Get away with' yea - you could 'get away with' no gear at all just like A H does. But like sky divers don't need parachutes - the right gear does help if you want to do it more than once.
Post edited at 09:51
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

Slings give real protection on long sections of traversing (and a lot of VFs are essentially just very exposed paths). To me these are the most prone parts of a VF because the danger is not so obvious as on a steep ladder pitch but are often covered in bits of loose rock of ball bearing like friction. Also on steep parts slings are useful not to protect a fall but to allow a rest which might reduce the probability of a fall, or to get past someone coming the other way safely.

I'm under no illusion as to what happens if I take a proper fall on a sling, but that is only one aspect of the protection afforded by a VF
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to illepo:

Yes - super serious. Spikes and ledges and rungs to hit of the way down, with a minimum fall of 1m ish before you hit the sling, more likely 2 or more metres. The lanyards are death avoidance kit, not something you want to use like you would a rope in a cimbing fall. Not big or clever!
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

The problem with that thinking is that if there is any slack in the system you are still setting up a factor 1 fall or greater. You seriously might as well not bother and be soloing so that you are under no misillusion that it'll do much. In no way should we be advocating anybody using a sling on a via ferrata on a forum read by thousands of climbers and open to search terms. What you do on your watch, retreating from a climb etc is up to you - you know the risks associated, but as we've seen from the OP and illepo, people often don't understand them...
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

I'm not advocating anyone use a sling for VF but I deisagree they are worse than useless for the reasons I describe. High fall factors only happen if you aren't on horizontal or near horizontal terrain or if you aren't just slipping on steep ground. Places where high fall factors are possible are not that frequent on big Dolomite VFs.
4
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

Sorry, that is just incorrect. If you are stood with your harness belay loop level with your carabiners and fall off, that is a factor one fall. If you are at the slings full stretch above the carabiners, that is a factor 2 fall. If the carabiners move at all above a bolt, that is a larger than factor 2 fall. So literally any time you are above a bolt or staple, you are creating a larger than factor 2 fall. A static nylon sling in a factor 2 fall or above is quite likely to fail. A standard non k rated biner in a larger than factor 2 fall is likely to fail. What you are possiting, that high fall factor falls are not common on via ferrata in general is plaining false. Soz, just saying it the way it is...
 d_b 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:
On the plus side falls are rare as it is usually possible to just haul on the cable/bolts or clip in for a rest on the hard bits.

You just need to remember that you can't afford to fall and you shouldn't push it too far.
Post edited at 13:22
 James Rushforth Global Crag Moderator 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

A sobering little video for you: youtube.com/watch?v=jOzhOs9SAws&
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to davidbeynon:

Well yeah - but that's adifferent question. Just trying to leave absolutely no illusions as to the seriousness of using slings for arresting a VF fall. It's just too easy to think it'll be fine - whilst I know what Graham is saying, that if you never move above your sling it's OK, I'd point to the fact that that is never going to happen. Even on traverses, the cable is often at waist height and sometimes they are below waist height - i.e. a sling is going to result in a high impact during a fall. Quite how you fall off the traverse is a different point, but in terms of pure fall arrest, it's just never worth it. Sure, if I was descending from a climb from the top a mountain route and didn't want to take a VF kit with me, then I might clip in as a pshycological thing, but I'd not expect a good result from a fall.
 Jim Walton 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:
The Carabiners on custom built Via Ferrata sets (CE EN 958) all have to be Type K carabiners (EN 12275), but what does that actually mean in a practical sense?

Carabiner Strength wise;
Loading on the Major Axis has to a minimum of 25kN. Other types have to be min 20kn (except the Oval which is 18kN)
Loading on the Minor Axis has to be minimum of 7kN which is the same for the other types.
Gate open strength has a minimum of 8kN. HMS types are 6kN, Ovals 5kN and Basic D shapes 7kN.
Strength over an Edge is 8kN. No other carabiner types are tested over an edge.

Other Carabiner details;
K Type carabiners shall have an autolocking device.
Minimum Gate opening is 21mm, other types is 15mm.

The Lanyards themselves;
There used to be two different types of specialist via ferrata lanyard set ups;
Type "Y" and Type "V".
The Type "Y" has the two lanyards joined together ABOVE the energy absorber. If the climber was clipped to the wire/anchor with either or both of the lanyards and the climber fell then the absorber/dissapator will do its job. Example would be the Petzl Scorpio Vertigo.
The Type "V" has the lanyards passing through an energy absrober in one peice of material (usually dynamic rope). Example would be the Knog KISA with a single rope. If using this type then only one carabiner should be clipped to the wire cable, except when passing an anchor. If a fall occurs when both connectors are clipped to the wire cable, there will be no energy absorbing in the system.
The UIAA stated that only the Type "Y" lanyard should be used (UIAA 128).

Testing;
An 80kg mass (The same that is uses for Type B ropes, slings, carabiners etc) is allowed to fall 5m (Connected just above the dissapator) and the Peak force on the lanyard is to be less than or equal to 6kN.

Hope that helps a bit.

Knots are not allowed to be tied in via feraata slings and will void the warrently (EN 958).
Post edited at 13:50
 d_b 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:
I agree completely. The video James just posted illustrates the problem with slings perfectly I think.

[edit] I just didn't want to scare people off VF completely.
Post edited at 13:32
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

The other thing to say about K type, is tha they are generally made from 6000 series aluminiums which are likely to deform as they have lower yield strength vs tensile, i.e. the bend rather than break. Most climbing snapgates, especially6 higher spec ones are made from 7075 - very very strong and light but not much use over an edge.

Also the autolock is required to have two independent actions to open the gate. Hence the lever on the back of the biner is usually totally independent of opening the gate. Or having to slide the barrel down and then pull the gate open... some are more complex than others.
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to davidbeynon:

> [edit] I just didn't want to scare people off VF completely.

Me neither, just trying to kill off the alternative facts.
 Neil Williams 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Toerag:

On mine it is attached to the shock absorber, FWIW. Sitting on it (even given a fully-kitted-up me being about a third overweight from spec) doesn't deploy it.
 Neil Williams 04 Jul 2017
In reply to davidbeynon:
> On the plus side falls are rare as it is usually possible to just haul on the cable/bolts or clip in for a rest on the hard bits.
>
> You just need to remember that you can't afford to fall and you shouldn't push it too far.

Yep, it does need a different mentality from a climbing wall where it is preferable usually to fall off than grab a hold from an easier route. Falling must be avoided at all costs. The VF kit is essentially there, resting aside, to give you a sporting chance of being taken off by a helicopter rather than being scraped off the floor if you do take a big fall.

I also don't seek to put people off - it just needs treating a bit more like a slightly poorly protected trad lead than Go Ape on rock when deciding how to respond to a sketchy move. I do accept that it doesn't feel that way at times, though, as I have done a fair bit of VF but wouldn't generally consider a poorly protected trad lead!
Post edited at 14:12
 Jim Walton 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

I did not know that about the material grade.
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

I'm not arguing with the fact that an uninterrupted fall from above a stanchion is not highly dangerous. I'm saying this represents only a very small amount of the situations on a typical old school Dolomite VF. In most cases, a fall on them would leave you suspended on the wire half way between stanchions or sliding down on your arse. Obviously knowing this you know that falling off isn't an option on those sections that are steep - this is clearly a very major consideration for many but not all. Soz, just saying it the way it is...
 99ster 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I stand corrected, it does look like most now *don't*, they did when I bought one a few years ago. I wonder why the change.

We bought the latest model ones from Petzl - and they do have a 3rd short 'arm' specifically for resting.
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Lanyards
 yorkshireman 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Falling must be avoided at all costs. The VF kit is essentially there, resting aside, to give you a sporting chance of being taken off by a helicopter rather than being scraped off the floor if you do take a big fall.

I'm lucky enough to have a VF literally at the bottom of my garden. It's only AD grade but has some quite steep bits and some overhangs (you can bail and take an easier route toward the top if needed).

Familiarity makes it seem quite benign and I've taken dozens of friends, many non-climbing types, up there, literally aged from 7-70 as its a great way to take people out of their comfort zone but stay relatively safe. However the one thing I always say is that the kit is there to save your life, but if you need to rely on it you're going to have a very bad day.

I think it's actually climbers, who are used to falling, who need reminding more. Non-climbers tend to not be so blasé.

To drive the point home I watched a helicopter rescue two Sundays ago after a girl had fallen (nothing to do with me, I was at home). Chatted to the Gendarmes since then and she thankfully wasn't seriously injured but there are some parts on the route where I dread to think how bad a fall can be.
 Neil Williams 04 Jul 2017
In reply to 99ster:

Mine's an Edelrid but it does have a similar "short" arm for that purpose, which is, like those, protected by the shock absorber in case you mess up.
 99ster 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Mine's an Edelrid but it does have a similar "short" arm for that purpose, which is, like those, protected by the shock absorber in case you mess up.

We made sure to buy the special K rated Petzl 'Vertigo' karabiners to add to the 'short' arm - they were pretty expensive, but it didn't make sense to me to compromise any part of the system:
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Carabiners-and-quickdraws/VERTIGO-WIRE-LO...
 beardy mike 04 Jul 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

Yeah alright. Getting me at my own game Just don't want to leave any wiggle room for propective hero's to think that they'll earn anything less than a Darwin award! Just of the opinion that any mention of using slings should be erradicated. People are daft as brushes unfortunately. I heard one apparently true stroy from a guide buddy of mine out there aout a German Dad who reached the summit of Piz Boe after having come up from Piz da Lech, and upon seeing the old service cable car cable for the hut, promptly clipped himself in and threw himself off to his demise infront of his son thinking it was the continuation of the VF. If it's true, it's a brutal demonstration of our tendancies towards being lemmings!
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

You are right. Anyone who is asking advice on best VF kit should be given safest advice. I guess the tone of the OP's "get away with" got me thinking about what that actually meant.
 alan.rodger 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:

I observed a guide in the Dols who had fashioned his kit out of a 6ft length of climbing rope clipped in the middle by an overhand knot to his harness and the two ends tied to stout carabiners.
 Neil Williams 05 Jul 2017
In reply to alan.rodger:
Less deadly than slings, but still rather lacking if he took a big fall. Not very responsible to his clients who would have to deal with the mess if he did.
Post edited at 00:43
 Jenny C 05 Jul 2017
In reply to alan.rodger:

At least he had a harness, decided not to climb behind a guy who had a similar setup but with the rope round his waist and two trails as lanyards. Didn't fancy being under him if he fall, want quite sure what would have failed first (krab, rope, spine, vital organs) but it was certainly going to be messy.
 beardy mike 05 Jul 2017
In reply to Jenny C:

I once saw a group from a hotel being led by a "hotel guide" (I.e. an employee with no quals what so ever - maybe Accompaniatore di Media Montagne, i.e. well outside remit) climbing with lanyards attatched to chest harnesses but no sit harness. I pointed out that they were highly likely to be snapped in two if any of them fell which they were surprised by and said that the leader was a guide. You see all sorts of things going on that make you sick up a bit in your mouth!
 tjin 05 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

Actually, the chest harness only and lanyard thing used to be the norm. Still have an old book with those instructions somewhere...

 beardy mike 05 Jul 2017
In reply to tjin:

Really? I don't mean a full body harness...
 tjin 05 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

Yes, i do mean just the chest harness. Not a full body harness.
 beardy mike 05 Jul 2017
In reply to tjin:

I guess times change... still scary and not really sure what you'd be thinking writing that in a manual. At any rate, this was only a few years ago and certainly wasn't considered appropriate at the time!
 d_b 05 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

I hate being behind people like that. It's selfish, but I just don't want to be involved in whatever epic they are bringing on themselves.
 Mike-W-99 05 Jul 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

That's as bad as the time we were followed by someone in the Dolomites with a sling attached to the chest strap on his rucksack.
 Jenny C 05 Jul 2017
In reply to Mike-W-99:

So long as they are below me I can live with that, don't want to see someone plummet to their death but...
- it is when they are above me and will take me out that if they fall I have a real problem.
Removed User 05 Jul 2017
In reply to Jenny C:

Just stay one full cable segment away from them - only clip into the next segment once they have left it
 Jenny C 05 Jul 2017
In reply to Removed UserFuchs:

I was thinking more being hit by a falling body (or body parts) if their improvised protection system failed catastrophically.
 GrahamD 06 Jul 2017
In reply to Jenny C:

> I was thinking more being hit by a falling body (or body parts) if their improvised protection system failed catastrophically.

Its never black and white. Even correct kit fails and older VF fixings aren't necessarily 100% either. Your safety is actually far more determined by the competence of the party ahead than the gear they carry. Whether they are kicking rocks and stones down or acting clumsily is certainly something I'd look for rather than whether they have the latest kit.
 Brass Nipples 06 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics:


You can hire the kit in the sports shops if you want to give it a try.
 Eyelet99 26 Jul 2017
In reply to Vics: All - An interesting discussion. This got me thinking about what one would do in the event of a fall where the person was okay following safe deployment/ripping of the stitching on the lanyard. Obviously one would use a safety rope to belay the person if it was being carried. However on easy grade ferrata, ropes are rarely carried. What is your thinking about the safest way to get this person off the via ferrata without a rope?
 Neil Williams 26 Jul 2017
In reply to Eyelet99:

Interesting question. Knot the sling back together so the lanyard is in reach and be very, very careful?
 oldie 27 Jul 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

Re Eyelet 99: "This got me thinking about what one would do in the event of a fall where the person was okay following safe deployment/ripping of the stitching on the lanyard."

Question from someone who has never used a lanyard and only been on short sections of fixed cable.
In the event of a fall ripping all the stitching surely there is then nothing to absorb any remaining force, which might be considerable.
Thus are lanyards designed so that there is rarely full deployment? If so remaining stitching might still offer some protection if retreating with the lanyard after a fall. From all that has been stated previously it seems that no lanyard can protect against very long falls.

Incidentally in my ignorance I'm sure I would once have used a sling on a VF (and might still do so when a fall without one would mean certain death.....if near a stanchion or slipping down an exposed ramp then it might just save me).

 Neil Williams 27 Jul 2017
In reply to oldie:
Only a very long fall of several metres with a very heavy person would rip the lot, and on most VFs there are limited opportunities for such falls because you'll have hit a ledge by then (and if you do take such a fall it's likely you're getting helicoptered off). So yes some probably would remain as limited protection.

There's a video on Youtube somewhere of someone taking a pretty heavy and uncomfortable looking slump that doesn't appear to rip any at all.
Post edited at 13:00
 JIMBO 27 Jul 2017
In reply to oldie:

I think this is why you should also carry a rope...
Removed User 27 Jul 2017
In reply to Eyelet99:

> All - An interesting discussion. This got me thinking about what one would do in the event of a fall where the person was okay following safe deployment/ripping of the stitching on the lanyard.

If the entire thing deploys, the fall must've been severe enough for hardly anyone to make it out without needing an airlift to the next A&E.

In any case, the thing is only good for one fall. If it deploys and you're fine, you either basically solo the rest of the route, taking it slowly and being veeery careful what you are doing. Or you call mountain rescue, if the risk is too great. But then again, you shouldn't do any via ferrates where you may realistically fall anyway.
Lusk 27 Jul 2017
In reply to Removed UserFuchs:
Carry some extra screamers which one could use to bypass a deployed lanyard.
http://www.needlesports.com/2631/screamers.aspx
Don't know how effective that would be, but it's got to better than nothing (?).
Post edited at 17:24
 oldie 28 Jul 2017
In reply to Removed UserFuchs:

Re: In reply to Removed UserEyelet99: " If it deploys and you're fine, you either basically solo the rest of the route, taking it slowly and being veeery careful what you are doing.... "

It might be possible to attach a friction hitch, eg klemheist, to the cable using the fully deployed lanyard and to move this with one over short difficult/worrying sections (long distances would be very slow and there might be abrasion of tape).
Possibly the deployed bit would be used for the hitch (the arms look as though they are often threaded with bungee). Attachment to harness would be as short as convenient and as this would be max fall length the FF would be nearer to 1. Possibly make a simple free running backup with remainder of lanyard.

Don't know if this would work and I have no knowledge of VFs. It does sound like many will in practice carry no relevant spare gear, so the lanyard must be reused in some way.

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