UKH

So I had a weird day at the crag today. Was climbing fine, and then chose to a slightly runout climb (5.9, about HVS). I had my belayer belaying on a boulder at the bottom, directly underneath the route once I'd gotten high enough. The boulder was about `1.6m above the ground, and I said that he should jump to the ground if I were to take a fall (I was looking at somewhere close to an 8-10m, down a slab and onto some blocky flakes). Just as I said that, an old bloke sitting at the bottom screamed up saying that I'm telling him how to break his back, and that we'll both die if we did that. I asked him if he trad climbed, and he screamed that he doesn't need to - he soloes all these routes. Then I said why don't we let folks climb how they like. Then as I'm higher up, just about to start the crux, he appears on a rope next to me to continue the argument. And then as I'm belaying too he tells me about the times he fell off when he was soloing (in a tone that implied that he had learned about safety the hard way). I said I would check the safety of the practice of the belayer jumping off. If it changes the context - he had drunk 2 beers during the last 30 minutes and smoked a joint too - and as my partner threw the ropes down, he screamed for high heaven that rocks had been thrown down (he had cleaned the top of that route as I was belaying, throwing away small marble sized rocks that were in a crack - then he downsoloed it). No rocks were thrown anywhere (I was at the bottom).

So long story short - is it safe for the belayer to jump off to take in the slack?

In reply to SenzuBean:
That's a great story, especially the beers and the joint!

Don't people do it sometimes on End of the Affair? Jumping off that is, not having beers and a joint before an attempt...

In reply to Misha:

Matthew Gordon stopped Jonny Dawes from hitting the ground by sprinting down the hill when Jonny fell off in an early attempt at End of the Affair.

In reply to SenzuBean:

hahaha - was it king can Al?

vimeo.com/187286784

In reply to supafly:


omfg it was!

In reply to SenzuBean:

Bot to answer the original question - *very* special case technique for runout routes. Makes a harder catch and puts more strain on the gear, and requires safe & easy jump off / run away terrain for the belayer, but if the alternative is decking then worth a try.

Having the belayer able to jump down sounds better than the running away version: quicker & less outward pull on the gear.

In reply to AlanLittle:


I think the hardness of the catch is very much a secondary consideration if there's serious doubt about whether the gear is even going to be weighted before the leader hits the floor.

Actually, I would say that dynamic belaying should be very much the exception for single pitch trad climbing. Yes, occasionally you can use it to kill a big swing, or to get someone below an overhang they would otherwise hit but you need to be absolutely certain you have the airspace to get away with it. If you really know what you are doing, maybe, by agreement, to try to spare a particularly marginal placement but this is complicated stuff because if you miscalculate you'll end up with a leader who has fallen both further and faster because you didn't stop them accelerating soon enough.

We have stretchy ropes to take care of the catch (which of course means that people fall much further than they are expecting anyway). As a belayer your job is to avoid the hard stop at the bottom. If that means stepping down, jumping down or, at a minimum, crouching, then that's what you do. You should have thought about what you are going to do before it happens. You are aiming just to take in slack and should avoid ending up both weighting the rope but that depends on how fast your reactions are and how fast the fall is (sliding down a slab can be surprising slow to start with).

As with so many things in life, timing is everything. No leader is going to thank you for going too soon.

I'm aware that sport climbing is different for all sorts of reasons but mainly because a ground fall should be impossible.

In reply to SenzuBean:


Usually, no. It would often mean the belayer themselves would get injured. However, it may be the lesser of two evils. I think it's something the belayer themselves should decide in the event of a fall, rather than being dictated to by the leader. It quite likely has never occurred before on an HVS!

In reply to SenzuBean:

isn't there an outtake bit on Hard Grit where someone is talking about their 'trained whippet' - if the leader falls, it rushes down the hill. Not much help given the weight of a whippet, of course, as it would be dramatically hitched aloft. And yes it really was a whippet, not someone's nickname.

Similar bit on that film of the chap (yes I should know who, he's extremely well known) who lead Black Bean on trad gear. He talks about how he's asked his girlfriend, who is belaying, to leg it down the hill if he falls. Then at the very end of the film there is a shot of him falling off and her being whisked straight up in the air, so again I think it would have been of dubious help!!

In reply to SenzuBean:

I did this when my mate came off Suspension Flake (VS 4c) at Hound tor.

It stopped him decking, but on the swing past he kicked me in the head. There's gratitude.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I once held a fall where the leader stopped less than a foot from the ground, and this was only because I stepped quickly down the slope and threw myself to the ground (with the belay device underneath me).
I've also both been prepared to jump off myself, and had my belayer ready to do so.
So long as the belayer isn't going to do themselves more damage it's perfectly sensible.

This guy sounds a right d*ck by the way.

In reply to SenzuBean:


Sometimes.

Into blocks, moving water, tree roots, ledges, hard flat ground... probably not.

Onto a bouldering mat, down a smooth slab or grassy slope, into undergrowth... they'll probably be fine but shouldn't be pressured to take on additional risk on your behalf.

jk

In reply to Big Ger:

I've been on the other end of this, only at Stanage. As in, I fell off, he fell over and sat down hard, and I missed landing on my head on the deck by not very much at all.
IIRC I bought the beers that night ....

John Redhead fell off Dawes of perception on the slate and his partner jumped into the vivian quary lake to save his life.. i believe his partner broke his thumb in the process. Good commitment defiantly owed him a pint.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Aside from your question, think you did well not to tell him to mind his own beeswax, sounded like he was the most likely cause for any fall you would have experienced on that route.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I have been here from both ends.
Stopped from decking from pretty high by a belayer who ran down the grass banking. He did a beautiful cartwheel so I am told. Both uninjured.
Belaying someone who tended to push his limits, he had a single good piece of gear below halfway to the crux. He fell off the crux three times and I stopped him decking by jumping off a boulder onto a carefully sussed soft grassy landing. The jolts were enough to give me whiplash which lasted for a couple of weeks. He was uninjured, decided he couldn't do the route. I led and found more gear in a better place! Was informed afterwards that this was his trademark type performance, find someone who had belaying ability and throw himself at routes, not normally this run out though!

In reply to supafly:

Hmmm. Do you have any grades for what he's doing?

It's notoriously hard to tell from appearances but most of that looks about severe. You could take similar drone footage of Offwidth* soloing on Milestone Buttress.

* Just kidding, Steve!

In reply to SenzuBean:

I would say that,s a very advanced technique for high grade climbs, where the people undertaking it have assessed and understand the risks, especially how good the gear is that they,re both depending on.
There are several examples of this being applied to grit and one I have experience of is Kaluza Klein at Cratcliffe, where the second jumping off stops a nasty landing for the leader onto a bomber friend/friends. [no I didn't test it, I can reach]
However belaying from the ground its quite normal to be prepared to step down or back to minimise a fall.