UKH

Hi all .

I recently found a section of spotlessly clean cliff near where i'm from in Ireland and i plan to return to investigate .

I have spotted a section that is of low angle and seems to have a few easy ish looking lines out .

How ever the base of most of the cliff has no ledge , tidal or other wise . so it looks like it will have to be a hanging belay .

Now I will be abing in soon to check the bottom for gear to build a belay and was looking for some advice on the whole process as its tough to find information on trad hanging belays .

I understand it must be over engineered in a sense and must have a piece in to deal with an upward pull .

I was also thinking that the ab rope could some how be incorporated into the belay or at lease secured to one of use in case we need to make a quick exit?

There is some really calm weather coming and cliff its self is sheltered from hammering sea's .

In reply to discosucks:

sounds exciting!
Good luck, watching with interest

In reply to discosucks:

Sounds brilliant ! In general, if there looks to be gear on the lines, upward pull isn't likely to be a factor. Your body weigth and friction should do the job. Just make sure the leader laces the bottom of the route. Secondly unless the ab rope really gets in the way of the route then use it as part of your belay.

In reply to discosucks:

Also a good idea to take down a rope bag or Ikea bag of some sort with the climbing ropes coiled into them.

In reply to John2:

Ikea bags rule for this. Save time, faff and wet rope.
hanging belays are not hard, they are just the same as any other trad belay.
The rope is easy to incorporate, and makes sense to do so. A cordette or large sling also help, as the first down will need to Un weight the ab rope to enable the second down to be able to abseil.

Personally:

At top, flake ropes into ikea bag, tie ends onto bag in a way you know which to tie into for climbing.

Leader abs down using shunt/ropeman/ Prusiks.
Sets up hanging belay with big sling, maybe even makes space for their 2nd to easily stand next to them.

Second comes down, clips into belay, if using shunt or ropeman, this can be left on.

Ikea bag hung on belay, near one of the pieces of gear is easiest, if it's too high, a sling is useful make it lower.

Tie in, lead etc.

Set top belay up, pull up ab rope, belay 2nd.

A set of walkie talkies can really help if your not practiced and familiar.

In reply to discosucks:
1) use the ab rope as part of the belay - you'd be an idiot not to. By that I mean put a prussik or shunt/ropeman on it rather than faffing with knots.
2) don't let any ropes get anywhere near the sea, it has a nasty habit of wedging them into cracks and under boulders.
3) Kevster's advice to pull the ab rope up before the second starts climbing is good - it means the second can help unsnag it if necessary, and also that it won't end up in the sea.

In reply to discosucks:

Best bet is not to choose a 'hanging' belay. Find yourself something, a block, break, bulge, whatever to get the soles of your feet on that is out of the firing line especially with a new route.

Keep in touch with the ab rope in case you need to bail out though personally I wouldn't consider it other than a last ditch back-up for a belay, it's so stretchy the closer gear will take all the load.

A bag for the ropes will help keep them out of the water, the sea can tangle and jam ropes in no time.

A belay without a big stance is the same as one with, get enough equalised gear in and adjust your ropes so you're in a comfortable position. One headache is whoever goes first has to create a comfortable belay then either swap gear or swap places which can be tricky on a tiny stance or if properly hanging.

I don't bother looking for an upward pull piece unless the belay is disconcertingly frail or my partner much heavier, I generally just make sure the gear is a meter or two above me.

Sometimes adding a piece off to the side or at waist level that isn't part of the main load bearing belay to hold you in a more comfortable position can help, it doesn't have to be as solid as the rest, it's just something to lean against.

Don't drop your shoes if you pop your heels out at the belay.
jk

In reply to jkarran:


Unless you're using an actual 'ab' rope i.e. (semi) static line, in which case it could be useful provided the directions of pull work out etc.

In reply to discosucks:
One lesson I've learned recently is to either get one piece in that can take an upwards pull or at the least stay clipped to the ab rope. This is particular advice for sea cliffs. The upwards pull piece/ab rope isn't to stop you getting lifted off the belay in the event of holding a big lead fall (though obviously it does that too), it's to stop a big (possibly 'freak' even on a relatively calm day) wave from sweeping you off the belay.

Mate was climbing in Pembroke recently with both leader and second clipped to the belay at the bottom before starting climbing. Big wave came along out of the blue and threw them both off the belay ledge, lifting the belay clean out as it did. If they hadn't each still been attached to the ab rope then they would quite probably have been swept away. They got battered enough as it is, without having to worry about being swept out with ropes and rack weighing them down...


I particularly like Kevster's process, especially getting the ab rope pulled up before the second climbs in case of it snagging on the way back up. Hadn't thought of that one before.

In reply to Will Hunt:

I definitely agree that the upward pull piece is very necessary on sea cliffs, had a massive wave come along at St David's Head West a couple of years ago, one minute I was 2-3m above the sea, the next I'm halfway up to my knees!

In reply to spenser:

May I ask a really dim question, as a semi hijack. We wear lids to keep our heads protected, why don't we bother with one of the skinny lifejackets one sees. I accept that even the skinny ones may get in the way, but are these ever considered?

In reply to spenser:

My only worry for an upward pull piece for this is that either it's relatively slack (in which case you might as well use the ab to stop you being entirely dislocated) or you run the risk of the gear/wave forcing you into the rock face fairly hard (whilst if you can be moved upwards that's where you'll go). I generally try to get a good cam or thread in the belay that'll cope with being pulled upwards/around briefly and not have you completely losing the belay.

I'd also recommend not using the ab as a primary belay piece (as in tensioned) as you're likely to wear the rope (unless you're entirely free-hanging and protected at the top) with movement trying to keep comfortable. On that note, rigging up a makeshift bosun's chair (out of rope, another ikea bag or something) to take some of your weight off your harness/legs is a godsend when the leader takes longer than you'd like (doesn't need to be particularly strong), however, as said above, better to just find something to rest on in the first place!

In reply to discosucks:
Belay much higher above the sea than you think you should. Freak waves happen really quite regularly and the second is effectively stuck at the belay for the duration of the pitch.

Oh and don't fall in the sea with a rack on your harness! If there's any danger of going in the drink use a bandolier because you can take that off far faster.

In reply to discosucks:

Lots of good advice here. You might want to consider pre placing and pre clipping your first runner while abseiling down to the start. It can make sorting out the ropes much easier and could potentially keep you out of the sea if you slipped off the starting sequence especially if the start is wet/greasy. Take jumars for an emergency exit and leave them clipped to the abb rope along with the haul sack/ Ikea bag along with a small water bottle and snack.

In reply to discosucks:
Another method that works well is for the 2nd tie into the rope/s, ab down first & set up the belay. Once that's done the leader feeds down the climbing rope/s while the second lap coils. Leader then abs down while tied into the other end of the rope/s (2nd continues coiling) & climbs straight out.

Pulling the ab rope up before the 2nd climbs is also a good suggestion.

In reply to discosucks:

A few thoughts:

- Please check that the site is not protected before "cleaning" the cracks of plants. This seems to be the site to find such things on: https://www.npws.ie/protected-sites

- Even though the rock may look clean and safe, it may have loose bits. If you have the slightest doubt, check this stuff on abseil (with the rope in a bag or coiled on you, so any debris falls cleanly into the sea rather than onto your rope) before finding out halfway up that a loose block would fall directly down to where your belayer is.

- Have fun and post pictures when done

In reply to SenzuBean:

Hey .

thanks for that thought , I hadnt checked that but looking into it seems fine and some distance away from the nearest protected bird area .

Some A1 advice here lads thanks!!

I will take it all on board and report back !

In reply to discosucks:

I've not read all the thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned before...

We worth investing in a decent ab rope protector tube thing for the top. It's amazing how quickly semi static ropes wear when dangled over an edge.

In reply to discosucks:

Yes to ab rope protector at the top if needed and in the ikea bag for on the way down if something sharp is sticking out. The ab rope needs to be considered for ' oops the line is wrong ' then go straight back up. Going back up the ab rope wondering if something is sawing through it as you swing about is a bit lonely. Ab with a set up that will change to ascent easily.

In reply to discosucks:


In most cases the wind and weather on the day dictate the wave and swell size, but on coasts facing large oceans, for example the Atlantic coast of the UK and Ireland, the swell is often the result of sea movement thousands of miles away, often days or even weeks before. This brings the added danger of the odd series of rogue waves.

Also you should beware of every seventh wave because it's a big one.

In reply to Steve Crowe:

cheers

I surf in this area and have a good understanding of what swell does what along this strech of coast so ill be keeping and eye on the charts .

we got a lucky break and the swell direction is east today / tomorrow and small height/period . ( the cliff faces north/west ) . so its almost totally flat .

In reply to discosucks:

If you have a Burren Climbing guide read the section on Hanging belays. Its very good.

In reply to Aigen:

I do actually perfect ill check it out !! Knew i had seen something somewhere about it!!