Running and cramp

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 Rampikino 30 Apr 2017
Ok - I ran the 3 Peaks Fell Race yesterday.

Notwithstanding the 2 falls I had, I felt leggy after only 7 miles or so and on the way up Whernside my calf muscles began to cramp badly.

When I turned around on Ingleborough I could barely walk but struggled back in just under 5 hours, easily 30 mins+ short of my aim and my form. Basically my calf muscles were cramping regularly. Later it became all up my leg and thigh, in the evening I felt it on toes and even my jaw!

I've never suffered cramps on a run before and all my training never induced them. I got up to 19 miles on hill/Fell with some major ascents (did the 19 in just over 3 hours). I've also done a number of 20+ road runs. My trail/hill/fell has gone well and race positions have been positive.

I suspect diet, but struggle to pinpoint it.

Additional context:

1. Had a good, relaxed week in the run up. Only 2 midweek runs of 4/5 miles. Longest run prior was 20+ two weeks before.

2. Health generally good though a bit nervous.

3. Didn't make any changes to diet for the race. Probably had a lot more carbs and sweet stuff the day before than normal, but nothing new or unusual.

4. Used my normal combination of gels/bars/High5 powder with caffeine/bananas.

I ended up going through a lot of fluid (2 litres of High5 and about 1/2 litre of water). That's double what I would expect. Also had 2 caffeine gels, 2 bananas and a carb chewy bar.

Oh, and another runner gave me a salt tablet on Ingleborough. It may have helped or not - no idea as I've nothing to compare it to - never used one before.

Any thoughts or guidance appreciated - I really don't want this again - it wrecked my performance (though I'm pleased I got through it to the end).

????

M
 hokkyokusei 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

Lucky you, I got cramp on the descent of Whernside and was put on the bus of shame at the Hill Inn. My prep wasn't ideal though, I was shitting through the eye of a needle Tue-Thu, so probably started very dehydrated.

Anyway, I'm also interested in any tips for avoiding cramp!
 Wainers44 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

Different context, but maybe not that different, I only get calf cramp in two circumstances. Early season football, ok that's now a memory and deep winter surfing...much more recent.

Salt tablets cured the football one (ok not that healthy) and the other is totally dependant on hydration. Hydrate before going in, rarely get cramp, no matter how cold!

Did you drink enough???
 Padraig 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

"Didn't make any changes to diet for the race. Probably had a lot more carbs and sweet stuff the day before than normal, but nothing new or unusual.
4.Oh, and another runner gave me a salt tablet on Ingleborough. It may have helped or not -.????M

I'd prob look at the above. Sweet stuff?? Depends what it was...

Oh and I NEVER EVER take anything another comp gives me in a race...........

Sweet Stuff stands out tho......


 Neil Williams 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

Aren't cramps typically caused by lost electrolytes?
 Rich_cakeboy 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rampikino:
Sorry to hear you had a bad one, but well done finishing! I have also suffered from a nasty bit a cramping towards the end of a marathon a few years back and struggled to the end. I spent a little time looking at the scientific research thinking is was food or drink related but there wan't any robust scientific evidence for electrolyte balance or abnormal levels hydration being a cause of cramps. Articles talk about exercise associated muscle cramps or EAMC - they suggest it is caused by fatigue induced problems with the in-built physiology of each muscle (Golgi tendon organs to the alpha motor neurons) which normally stop it overworking itself. Cramp is likely to happen in a race when you are pushing yourself ans especially if you go off too hard, this was true to me as I was aiming for a PB but had lost some fitness after a chest infection. If it happens in a race you should stretch, and ease off the pace a bit.
To prevent cramps, the brutal answer is training harder and pace better. If it were me the 2 falls probably wouldn't help because that would make me push to catch up where I was in the field.

Edit references:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981039
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27159592
Post edited at 21:57
OP Rampikino 30 Apr 2017
In reply to hokkyokusei:

Really sorry to hear that. I understand most DNF pulled out at Hill Inn.

The digestive thing might be a factor - I was quite poopy in the week. Perhaps more dehydrated than I realised.
OP Rampikino 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rich_cakeboy:

Thank you - really odd one for me as it is new. The first fall shook me up but I'm not sure if it was a factor. The second was 3 miles from home and partly cramp induced.

I gave up trying to make up time after about 8 miles.

I'm thinking dehydration was at least a contributory factor...
OP Rampikino 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Padraig:

> Oh and I NEVER EVER take anything another comp gives me in a race...........Sweet Stuff stands out tho......

By the time I took the salt tablet I was practically immobile anyway and was 19 miles in. It was that or nothing. But normally I would agree with you!

I think the carbs/chocolate might actually have contributed to dehydration but I could be wrong...
OP Rampikino 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

> Salt tablets cured the football one (ok not that healthy) and the other is totally dependant on hydration. Hydrate before going in, rarely get cramp, no matter how cold!Did you drink enough???

I certainly drank a lot more on the race than I would normally. Perhaps I didn't hydrate properly before.
 The New NickB 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

I don't really suffer from cramp, but one of my regular training partners, has suffered badly with it on long fell runs, 3PR included.

He started taking magnesium tablets a few years ago and no longer has a problem with cramp. I don't know the science, but it worked for him.
 mountainbagger 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

Perhaps with the poopy run up and carbs/sweet stuff the day before, rather than more solid run up and carbs/salty stuff the day before meant you were on the back foot before you started? Maybe salt tab and (majority of) High5 was all a bit too late to make a difference.

I have only cramped up once, and that was on a very hilly marathon, never on roads. Perhaps the steepness causes more stress on the leg muscles and you need more than you're used to?
 cathsullivan 01 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

I had this problem once on a sportive. Got half way round and then got such severe cramp in both quads that I couldn't bend my legs. Cycling up the hill I was at the bottom of was never going to happen. Had to suffer the indignity of the broom waggon. I'm fairly sure it was because I went too hard at the start.
 wbo 01 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino: some thoughts. Weather - dehydration? Also, cramp, definition. You say you felt leggy, early? I had a problem recently on a run, where for whatever reason, I couldn't relax one calf and it got more and more tired. I stopped, walked for two or three minutes, restarted and nursed my now tired , tight and very sore leg through the run. Sound familiar?
Also, shoe choice. Were too soft, too thin shoes not allowing you to run properly?

 PaulTclimbing 01 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino:
In a long race in s wales this year and within four miles if finish and after a brutal climb a lot of people got cramp or complained of it. In a case I saw they were desperate for water. But it coincided with running through wet bog for a mile. Conditions can affect calf muscles Also I carry homemade bolus hand sized oats honey worthers original coffee powder half high 5 mag tab and nuts raisins with titbit chorizo all crushed up as my food. Tastes disgusting but does the trick. Although only used it once.
 Rich_cakeboy 01 May 2017
In reply to The New NickB:
Everyone is different and I am pleased the magnesium worked cause they are not enjoyable!

This article summarises the current theory of leg cramps without much jargon:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-causes-leg-cramps/
It's and mentions things that contribute could be imbalances in technique, posture, flexibility and shoes all and why running hills could contribute.

This theory make sense to me as if you are racing, tired, going up and down hills it is likely causing loss of ideal running technique which then makes you susceptible to to cramps. It is going to be difficult to test but nutrition and electrolytes both physically and physiologically will help you keep your energy levels up and help keep better form so less likely to cramp.
Post edited at 10:56
OP Rampikino 01 May 2017
In reply to wbo:

It certainly felt more nutrition/hydration than anything else. All my kit was good - right stuff for right conditions and all tried and tested.

The point earlier about salt/High5 coming too late might be right on the money.
OP Rampikino 01 May 2017
In reply to mountainbagger:

I think you've probably nailed it for this situation.

I certainly need to learn from it.
OP Rampikino 01 May 2017
In reply to The New NickB:

The High5 has salt and magnesium but perhaps it didn't kick in until it was too late...
 Robert Durran 01 May 2017
In reply to Rich_cakeboy:

> This article summarises the current theory of leg cramps without much jargon:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-causes-leg-cramps/

There is a theory that the nerve effect which triggers cramp can be offset by the "jolt" of taking a spoonful of vinegar or even mustard, at least to stop the cramp and maybe to prevent it. I remember reading that there is supposed to be better than anecdotal evidence for this working (certainly some people swear by it). There is even a remedy along these lines marketed: http://www.teamhotshot.com/ I would happily drink a whole bottle of vinegar or eat a whole jar of mustard if it would prevent the extreme pain of thigh cramps which have become my biggest limiting issue in the mountains (those who only get calf cramps don't know what pain is!).
 steelbru 01 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino:
I've suffered quite badly on both hilly trail, and flat road marathons.

I've read a lot of good things about the hotshot product linked above, but difficult to know how many of the reviews are truly independent.

I'd be keen to test it, but unfortunately the company only has one distributor who will post internationally from the US, and their postage charges are expensive. $65 for 12 bottles of the stuff, plus another $30 for delivery, then possible import duty to pay as well. A lot of money for something that may or may not work. Still tempted to go for it though.............

I've contacted a couple of UK companies who specialise in sports nutrition to see if they could become UK distributors, but no joy yet.
Post edited at 13:38
OP Rampikino 01 May 2017
In reply to steelbru:

That's really prohibitive!
 DancingOnRock 01 May 2017
In reply to Rich_cakeboy:

That's exactly what I had heard.

For me, swimming after running never fails to produce foot and calf cramps. It has nothing to do with what I eat and can only be something to do with the two types of exercise conflicting.

I can run all day - no problem.
I can swim for an hour - no problem.

Run then swim and the cramp willl start within 10mins of entering the water.
 Solaris 07 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

Commiserations, and congratulations on getting round in the end.

I have suffered from cramping calves on runs but they started on a climbing trip, and they started when I was older than you are (according to your profile!), but I would definitely suggest going to see a good physio who understands running and runners. In my case, the problem is basically anatomical, and stretches seem to enable me to get by. (I've only skimmed the other replies, so forgive me if I'm repeating other advice.)
 DaveHK 07 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino:
You're not alone. I got brutal cramps on top of Whernside and Ingleborough then again after the race. I'd changed my drink and mixed it too strong though so put it down to that and the usual starting too fast.
Post edited at 22:50
OP Rampikino 08 May 2017
In reply to Solaris & Dave Kerr:

So an update to this is that I ran the Sandstone Trail Challenge this weekend - 33 miles in Cheshire. Yes it was only a week after the 3 Peaks, but actually I got through it really well. I tried a few different things with hydration and was well supported, and though I was very tired in the last 10 miles I still performed better than expected and residual stiffness is minimal.

I did go for sports massage twice in the week last week and kept my recovery runs very light. I believe that helped. No cramps on Saturday though!
 steveriley 08 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

How'd you get on with the Sandstone? Good effort straight after the Peaks. Forgot you were doing this - I was flitting between Frodsham Hill and the finish. Good day for running I thought.
OP Rampikino 08 May 2017
In reply to steveriley:

Yes - excellent day for running. Pace was fantastic from start to about 18 miles. I faded a bit in the last 10 miles but still did 5hrs 33 against a target of a sub 6hrs. I think (not seen the results yet) that I came 18th, so delighted really.

Brilliantly organised event.
 steveriley 08 May 2017
In reply to Rampikino:

Thanks. Here you go - http://helsbyrunningclub.org.uk/STC2017-results.pdf - the penny drops - we've exchanged tweets even if I didn't see you in real life. Pics at https://www.flickr.com/photos/runhelsby more hopefully today. Nice run! 20 mins faster than I've ever managed
OP Rampikino 08 May 2017
In reply to steveriley:

Thanks Steve - like I've said a few times - the event is superbly organised and does Helsby RC credit.

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