can anyone put a name this N Wales route?

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aswilletts 22 Apr 2017
 jon 23 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

Have you any reason to think that it's Ogwen, rather than the Pass, for instance?
 Mike Conlon 23 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

I am no expert but it makes me think of the first stance on Outside Edge Route on Cwm Silan.
 Mooncat 23 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

My first thought was spiral stairs on the cromlech.
 Doug 23 Apr 2017
In reply to Mooncat:

My first thought as well, but then I read Ogwen
 jon 23 Apr 2017
In reply to Doug:
Hence my reply. I thought Cromlech - and actually Spiral Stairs - but it's a long time since I climbed there, so it's only really a guess.
Post edited at 10:22
In reply to aswilletts:

I wonder if it could be something above the Idwal Slabs around Holly Tree Wall. Lazarus, perhaps, or Piton Route ?
 Iain Thow 23 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

Looks rather like the first pitch of Y Gelynen in the Moelwyns. Is that a possibility (it was put up in 1953)?
 Mooncat 23 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

There's something about the rock on the photo which doesn't look right for there to me but it's a long time since I've been there.
 summo 23 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> I wonder if it could be something above the Idwal Slabs around Holly Tree Wall. Lazarus, perhaps, or Piton Route ?

Perhaps holly tree wall itself. Piton and original route behind.

Or, something completely different.. slanting buttress, lliwedd.
Post edited at 13:34
In reply to summo:

I don't remember Holly Tree Wall itself as having much of a gentle lead in. Also, the rock looks a little bit too rounded for Lliwedd.
 summo 23 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I don't remember Holly Tree Wall itself as having much of a gentle lead in. Also, the rock looks a little bit too rounded for Lliwedd.

Yeah. I made the presumption it was the first pitch. Can't think of any of classics on east face looking like that. Most routes of bochllwyd are steeper and generally straight up. Same with gribin facet.... someone will recognise it though. Route probably had traffic this weekend.
 Ian Parsons 23 Apr 2017
In reply to summo:

> Piton and original route behind. >

Do you mean Piton Route? Or is that actually a piton and krab about a foot left [from our perspective] of her right shoulder?
1
 summo 23 Apr 2017
In reply to Ian Parsons:

> Do you mean Piton Route? Or is that actually a piton and krab about a foot left [from our perspective] of her right shoulder?

Yeah. But that would put her on Cinderella? Not sure on what was climbed by whom in which era. I imagine piton route would be considered pretty serious (as were most routes).
 static266 23 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

Possibly slab climb on Gribin Facet?
 Greenbanks 24 Apr 2017
In reply to Mike Conlon:

> I am no expert but it makes me think of the first stance on Outside Edge Route on Cwm Silan.

The rock is far too rough for OE - based on my recollection of it in sub-zero temperatures on Friday, last week!
 Dave Garnett 24 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I wonder if it could be something above the Idwal Slabs around Holly Tree Wall. Lazarus, perhaps, or Piton Route ?

Pretty sure it's not Lazarus, and I remember it like it was yesterday. Which it was!

I agree with others that the rock just doesn't look right for Ogwen. It's a rather an odd photo - where is the photographer standing, for instance?
 summo 24 Apr 2017
In reply to Mooncat:

> My first thought was spiral stairs on the cromlech.

You might right. The corner/groove behind could be sabre cut, or C. corner itself. I'd say if anything it's where spiral/ dives/ sabre all cross each other. All were first climbed in the 30s and 40s.
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I'm starting to think that's a peg belay behind her to her left, which suggests the possibility that it might not be in Britain at all.
 Bulls Crack 24 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Pegs were used quite extensively in the 50's though. I've belayed off a few of them as I'm sure you have!
In reply to Bulls Crack:

Indeed. Very few in N Wales though, that I remember, in the late 60s/early 70s. It's really bugging me, this photo. The rock doesn't look quite right for anything I remember in Snowdonia. It's vaguely like so many things, e.g the beginning of Milestone Buttress and some of those things in the Moelwyns, as someone else has suggested. But really not nearly like enough. More like some things in the Lakes, eg. the beginning of Middlefell Buttress or C Ordinary on Dow, or even Curved Ridge on the Buachaille. But it just isn't. The rock really doesn't look right. It really is a baffling. (PS Word of the evening: really. Perhaps a reflection on self trying to keep some kind of grasp on the present crazily unfolding reality all around us.)
In reply to summo:

Sorry, the background is nothing like either Sabre Cut or Cenotaph.
 Martin Hore 24 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

One thing that strikes me is there isn't any vegetation in the picture. That long ago the "Forest" where Dives, Sabre Cut and Spiral Stairs cross over actually was a forest I believe. And that would apply to many if not most N Wales crags. How sure are you that it's even in the UK?

I'm old enough to have used the waist belay. Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think she's doing it correctly. I don't think there should be a twist around the wrist holding the live rope.

Martin
In reply to Martin Hore:

Yes, there's always been a lot of vegetation (grass, small bushes etc) on all the welsh crags. As I said earlier, I too doubt now that this picture is of somewhere in the UK.

Edit: Don't let's even talk about the belaying. Most of our belaying (in the mid to late 60s, when I started) was absolute crap compared with modern belaying that was well established by about the late 70s.
Post edited at 22:13
 charlieg0pzo 24 Apr 2017
Is that some quartz to her lower right?

 Martin Hore 24 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Don't let's even talk about the belaying. Most of our belaying (in the mid to late 60s, when I started) was absolute crap compared with modern belaying that was well established by about the late 70s.

Not sure I agree there. I was first taught waist belaying by two school teachers in around 1965. It was drummed into me that there's no twist around the wrist of the live rope, the arm holding the dead rope is brought across the waist to "lock off", sleeves are rolled down, and gloves are worn. I held quite a few falls like that before the sticht plate came along sometime in the 70's. I wouldn't have said it was "absolute crap", though clearly not as reliable as modern belay devices.

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

Ooo–K. I wasn't going to get drawn into this, but waist belays done properly were fine. I held a lot of falls with a waist belay and gardening gloves between c. 1969 and 70. Some real monsters (50, 70, 100 feet), some straight on to my waist. What I was referring to, rather obliquely, was the horror of the shoulder belay.
 Dave Garnett 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Ooo–K. I wasn't going to get drawn into this, but waist belays done properly were fine. I held a lot of falls with a waist belay and gardening gloves between c. 1969 and 70.

It was still common practice when I joined a university club in 1976.

> Some real monsters (50, 70, 100 feet), some straight on to my waist.

Me too, and this was in the late 70s.
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I was using some kind of belay plate in late 1970, i think.
 Dave Garnett 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I was using some kind of belay plate in late 1970, i think.

Ahead of your time! I think I didn't get a sticht until I had my own (kernmantel) rope. The club ropes were Viking hawser-laid nylon...
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Ahead of your time! I think I didn't get a sticht until I had my own (kernmantel) rope. The club ropes were Viking hawser-laid nylon...

The date is confirmed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belay_device

I now remember more precisely. Four of us were camping in Llanberis Pass for a month in August 1970, when the first Sticht plates arrived at Joe Brown's in Llanberis. My brother John and John Syrett bought them, reported how brilliant they were, and then, within 2 or 3 days, Tim James and I followed suit.

Our kernmantel ropes then were among our most treasured possessions. I think Tim and I shared the cost of ours (probably late 69 or early 1970, can't remember) In summer of 68 we were struggling up our first HVS's like Spectre with a single 120ft Viking hawser-laid. It was very stiff, making most runners jump off their spikes, and the drag was horrendous. Coupled with completely un-sticky boots ...
 Dave Garnett 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm pretty sure I did things like the Corner and the Groove on club ropes in the late 70s and definitely we partially cut through one when I held a big fall at Gogarth (the entire top pitch of the Ramp).

However, I never did use a shoulder belay!
 jon 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> when I held a big fall at Gogarth (the entire top pitch of the Ramp).

That's them Stoats for yer!

 Mark Kemball 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Are you sure of your dates Gordon? I started climbing in 1974, the first time I saw a sticht plate was in 1978 when climbing with some German visitors. We were very suspicious of them at the time. I continued to use waist belays until June 1979 when I bought a sticht plate in Munich (according to my logbook), which seems to suggest they weren't availble in the UK. (I certainly can't remember seeing them in British shops or on the crags before then.)
 johncook 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I don't know the exact dates but stitch plates were available in the very early 70's prob 1970 (I may have got mine on an alps trip in that year). They were a bugger for jamming solid, didn't work on hawser laid rope (on a thick one they tended to unwind the lay so you had several straight thin ropes), and had an habit of moving up the ropes as you lifted the dead end to take in. A short while after they brought out the one with the spring on the back and a hole for a bit of 5mm to stop it running up the ropes. That worked much better, but was still rubbish on hawser laid ropes.
I used to miss catching lead falls on a waist belay, but not a lot! Only ever used a shoulder belay once. Stood on a grass ledge somewhere in Wales, second fell off and I turned upside down and was left holding the rope with two hands. As I said only once!
PS. I still have mine in my personal museum of old gear I am too tight/sentimental to get rid of.
Post edited at 10:41
In reply to johncook:

Well that Wikipedia link I gave above says it was 1970.
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Are you sure of your dates Gordon?

More or less 100% certain. I'll double check with my brother when I next ring him.

 brianjcooper 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> The club ropes were Viking hawser-laid nylon...

You've just taken me back 45yrs with one sentence! My first rope was one of these and a bloody nightmare
when it was wet or iced up. I'm convinced it was alive on occasions when fighting with it.

 AlanLittle 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I remember a little while ago re-watching the film of Ron on Lord of the Flies and being surpised by the waist belay.

Certainly by the time I started at the very end of the 70s Sticht plates were pretty much standard.
 jkarran 25 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

The rock in the lower picture appears to have some really big crystals, possibly feldspar (so pegmatite IIRC) in a finer matrix. Someone with a better knowledge of geology might be able to help. I couldn't do better than possibly somewhere in Snowdonia or the Lakes.

The route may have changed a fair bit over the years.
jk
In reply to jkarran:

I'm not a geologist, but it doesn't really look like rhyolite to me.
1
In reply to Christheclimber:

Yes.
 Michael Hood 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Christheclimber:

If only the OP's photo was that easy.
 Michael Hood 25 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts: If that's a family pic, do you know who the young lady is - in which case ask, or is she no longer with us?

 Mark Kemball 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Thanks for that, Gordon - it seems really odd that I'd never seen a sticht plate before '78, I was only using waist belays before then, but slightly modified by clipping the live rope to the front of the Willans with a screwgate to prevent the rope from unwinding around your waist (particularly useful on hanging belays). I think that by '80, stichts were in general use.
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I'm sure all my climbing friends at Cardiff University, and my brother's at Leeds, were using them by 1972 at the latest (when I left University).
 Jim Lancs 25 Apr 2017
To my knowledge, Sticht Plates were the standard belaying method at Loch Eil by 1974. Klaus Schwartz was a very enthusiastic advocate of them.

And anyone who held a fall factor 2 on a waist belay (even with a massive jacket and welding gloves) versus the same thing with a Stitch plates on the fire escape belay drop machine, also became an enthusiastic advocate of them.
In reply to Jim Lancs:

They were arguably the single biggest breakthrough in safety in the whole history of rock climbing.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Are you sure of your dates Gordon? I started climbing in 1974, the first time I saw a sticht plate was in 1978 when climbing with some German visitors.

I was wondering the same, the first time I came across one was in 1976 in Sweden.


Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:

This is very odd, Chris, because I remember them as a big breakthrough in 1970, and even have a picture of us using them in 1972 (link given above at 12:28).
Post edited at 21:23
 jon 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Wiki and Google translate provide this:

> The stab plate is an older securing device when climbing.
> The original Stichtplatte (also called "Stichtbremse") was developed by Fritz Sticht († 1988), a Franconian climber. He presented it to the public for the first time in 1967 and had it marketed by Salewa from 1969. [1] It was the first mechanical rope brake and thus the successor of the abseiling technique, which was designated as a carabiner brake. Because this old technique was still from the time before the screw carabiners and had to be threaded with four normal carabiners, the Stichtbremse was an advance. The device was safer and easier, and for this reason, it was very popular with mountain guides. In the 1970s, two deadly climbing accidents in connection with the Stichtbremse had taken place as a safety device (with a downward pull on the booth downwards) [1], but it was used in many parts of Europe, especially since the UIAA 1973 by Werner Munter around 1970 Taught half-mast dump protection as a safeguarding method. [2] The plate remained in use in England and the USA and formed the basis for the later development of the tube. The renaissance of the Stichtbremse in the shape of the Magic Plate started, as stands were equipped with secure boring hooks [1]; Because in the case of fixed point safety, it has the advantage that the rope is self-locking when one or two successors are secured.
> There are different versions of the stamping plate, but all have in common that a platelet is provided with two parallel, several centimeter long slots. Through one or both slots, bays of the single or half and twins ropes are threaded and secured with a screw-karabiner before slipping back.
> Instead of the plate, tubes (eg reversos or ATCs) are now used, which can be regarded as a further development, and the plate is of little significance.

I quite like the half mast dump protection...
Post edited at 21:27
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Interesting - looks pretty definitive too.

Different times I guess, hardly any climbers about, not many ways of getting 'news' and of course not much free cash either!

Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I guess I was lucky with the circle of people I climbed/mixed with. John Syrett particularly, as well as being a naturally brilliant climber, was totally up to speed with all the latest developments.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You are right about the Sticht plate. We definitely were using them most of the time by 1971. I would say that we probably got the our ones in about August 1970. What we really liked about the Sticht plate, compared with the trad waist belay (because the waist belay when done right is very effective0, was that one could face in any direction whilst belaying, whereas with the waist belay one's body had to be positioned right. Belaying on some climbs with the waist belay could be excruciating. Cemetary Gates was a case in point: one had to belay facing out on a very small sloping ledge, which meant that one's toes were forced right done into the front of the EB's; whereas with a Sticht plate one could face in any direction one liked and get almost comfortable!
 Tim Sparrow 25 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

I reckon Skye gabbro or Ben andesite myself. Doesn't look like Snowdonia rhyolite at all.
Kipper 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> I was wondering the same, the first time I came across one was in 1976 in Sweden.Chris

We made our own at school in 73/74 - someone had brought one back from Europe and we couldn't afford to buy one. Lasted for years, although I always preferred the real one with the spring that the school club had.
In reply to Kipper:

The one with the spring came out about a year later, c. 1971-2.
pasbury 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Brilliant pictures - thanks for sharing
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 26 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

Not a clue, but again thanks for sharing. Great photo.
 johncook 26 Apr 2017
In reply to John Stainforth:

We bought ours after I took a big winger while 'clutching' a lump of rock that wouldn't go away. My mate caught me on a body belay and peed blood for two weeks. A few weeks later we had stitch plates and used them all the time. I am sure that we got them in 1970 and probably from the alps trip, so makes it about August. Bought the spring one as soon as I saw one in a shop!
 brianjcooper 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think she's doing it correctly. I don't think there should be a twist around the wrist holding the live rope.

I'm being pedantic too. The twist of rope round the arm should be on the 'dead' pile of rope side and not from the climber being belayed. Thank goodness for modern belay devices.
 Andy Long 26 Apr 2017
In reply to jon:

> Wiki and Google translate provide this:I quite like the half mast dump protection...

Ah yes, that splendid word "halbwastwurfsicherung". That said, "half clove-hitch" is a more descriptive name than "Italian hitch".

In reply to Gordon, whilst the Sticht plate was certainly one of the greatest breakthroughs in climbing safety, I'd argue that nylon ropes themselves were the most important.
A leader fall on hemp must have been a ghastly experience even if nobody was killed or injured. A waist-held leader fall on nylon was merely uncomfortable unless you were unlucky.

I was working in centres in the 1970s. Most of us went over to Sticht plates in the early 70s for our personal climbing, whilst at work we still used waist belays until about 77-8 ish.
I remember considerable reservations about teaching the Sticht method to beginners. I now see instruction books which (if they mention it at all) describe the waist belay as a complex and difficult technique.
In reply to Andy Long:

I think all beginners should be taught the classic waist belay as well as the Munter Hitch and the proper use of a belay plate or tube. (Teaching the use of Grigri's alone is not adequate preparation for the hills and mountains.)
 Martin Hore 26 Apr 2017
In reply to John Stainforth:

> I think all beginners should be taught the classic waist belay as well as the Munter Hitch and the proper use of a belay plate or tube. (Teaching the use of Grigri's alone is not adequate preparation for the hills and mountains.)

Agreed that everyone needs to know what to do if they drop the belay device they normally rely on. I would say the Munter hitch is the safest alternative as it's unlikely anyone would drop all their karabiners.

Martin
 Mark Kemball 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Martin Hore:

> I would say the Munter hitch is the safest alternative

Awkward with double ropes though.
 GrahamD 26 Apr 2017
In reply to John Stainforth:

> I think all beginners should be taught the classic waist belay as well as the Munter Hitch and the proper use of a belay plate or tube.

As an old reactionary I disagree that there is a need anyone should be taught anything in climbing. For me one of the joys of learning climbing was the learning by experience, working stuff out.

Fine if people want to go on courses or learn from other climbers thats their perogative but the idea that climbing needs teaching is a bit of an anathema to me
5
 Mark Kemball 26 Apr 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

We are well and truly off topic now, but I have to disagree! If I take out an inexperienced climber, I expect to do some teaching. Looking back on my early climbing, I think I was lucky to get away without serious injury - a bit more teaching would have been a good idea!
 Andy Long 26 Apr 2017
In reply to John Stainforth:

>Teaching the use of Grigri's alone is not adequate preparation for the hills and mountains.

Couldn't agree more. Overweight, over-engineered, overpriced and only take a single rope.
2
 Andy Long 26 Apr 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

> As an old reactionary I disagree that there is a need anyone should be taught anything in climbing. For me one of the joys of learning climbing was the learning by experience, working stuff out.Fine if people want to go on courses or learn from other climbers thats their perogative but the idea that climbing needs teaching is a bit of an anathema to me

I can see where you're coming from and there is probably far too much teaching going on - there appear to be courses for every stage of a climber's development. Nonetheless, some basic instruction in rope work must be appropriate. After that, fine, get on with it.

The vast arsenal of protection equipment now available wasn't there when we started, so there was less to learn. We also knew that climbing was dangerous, so we were careful. People now seem to believe that mastery of the gear will guarantee safety. Hence the desire for continued hand-holding.
In reply to Martin Hore:

But the trad waist belay still has its place for very rapid belaying, particularly on relatively easy ground, e.g. when alpine climbing. Also less faffing when ropes are wet or icy. Also, if one suddenly has to belay a climber and there is not time to thread a belay plate, or even tie a Munter hitch, I would say it still ranks #1.
 GrahamD 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I suppose it depends where you draw the line between teaching and being shown the ropes and the semantics of "should be taught" to "it would be beneficial being taught". The thought of any compulsion in it is what I don't like - "you have to be taught before you are allowed to play outside sort of thing".

Apologies for being off topic.
 David Jones 26 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

Is this the stance above pitch 1of Western Slabs on the Mot?
 Rob Exile Ward 26 Apr 2017
In reply to John Stainforth:

I think the trad waist belay is a perfectly useful technique in quite a range of circumstances; I never had to hold a leader fall using one but even now I'll use it sometimes to bring a second up an easy pitch.

And using an Alpine belay - i.e. just hooking the rope over a natural spike - saved my son's life when he took a big swing trying to exit the grass slope at the top of Rib and Slab in the Pass.
 Stu Tyrrell 27 Apr 2017
In reply to David Jones:

I thought Dinas Mot or Llewedd, good call.
 Iain Thow 27 Apr 2017
In reply to David Jones:
Good call, just had a look at a blow up of the cliff and I think you're probably right.
 Trangia 27 Apr 2017
In reply to aswilletts:
Who is the climber? Does she still climb? If so, like me she will probably be in her 70s, even 80s

We always used shoulder or waist belays in the early 1960s. I held several seconds falling off with such a belay, but fortunately never had to hold a leader fall.

Along with some friends we went to the rescue of a party where the leader had fallen on Sron na Ciche in 1963. The second had held him, then shouted for help as the leader had a broken leg. We climbed up to them and managed to the strain off the second, before lowering the leader down to a ledge. The second's hands were very badly lacerated and burnt, and it was amazing that he had managed to hold the fall with just a body belay. The subsequent rescue took all night and much of the following day.
Post edited at 14:06
 MikeTS 27 Apr 2017
In reply to Martin Hore:

i remember a twist. thank god i never had my leader fall.
 Ann S 27 Apr 2017
In reply to David Jones:

> Is this the stance above pitch 1of Western Slabs on the Mot?

I'll go with this.
 Michael Hood 27 Apr 2017
In reply to Ann S:

Not convinced, has anyone got a suitable recent photo?
 robate 27 Apr 2017
In reply to Trangia:

Hey I have held a full on leader fall on a waist belay. Picture the situation, a 13 year old kid, me, is watching a geography teacher leading the first groove pitch of Poor Man's Peutery at Tremadog in the rain, armed with a variety of large hexes, webbing belt and PAs. He's 10ft above the only runner when he flies off backwards. I'd been shown how to belay and I stopped him 5ft off the deck. I had a bad weal on my left arm which still shows sometimes and this is aeons ago, but it definitely works!


Kipper 27 Apr 2017
In reply to robate:

> Hey I have held a full on leader fall on a waist belay.

Me too. I've also seen the hand damage mentioned above that can happen.

I still use a body belay as the preferred option at the top of a climb.

 oldie 28 Apr 2017
In reply to Kipper:
Held many leader falls on waist belays. Never any rope burns as always used long sleeves and grippy gloves when belaying leaders (one glove on locking twist hand would prob be enough). Still use it sometimes for top roping and seconds as quick to set up and rope can be taken in rapidly. As with any method must be done correctly.
aswilletts 02 May 2017
In reply to jon:

Hi Jon - et al. Many thanks for the comments.

These pics recently came to light with a few other which are definable Tryfan . I dont think she ever got further than N Wales - so possible it could be the pass. My initial thought was E fave of Tryan but not a route I recognize myself.

aswilletts 02 May 2017
In reply to aswilletts:

Hi All

Thanks for the input and ideas - not withstanding the debate about body belaying - lots of memories of that horror myself in the past. Great ideas - I will keep searching so I can try to revisit myself at some point. Sentimental stuff but this was my mom as a young lass - not departed - who inspired mt to get started myself.
 Sean Kelly 02 May 2017
In reply to aswilletts:
Not Western Slabs on the Mot as Western Gully comes in from the right. Looks more like something on Tryfan E face to me, but what? Black Spring should be in the background if it was the Mot and that is nearly always wet which is not the case here.
Post edited at 21:43
 Red Rover 02 May 2017
In reply to David Jones:

I thought that the moment I saw the photo but then started to doubt myself so didnt post it but I believe it again now others are saying it :p I remember standing on that ledge facing outwards and feeling like I was flying down the pass
 Red Rover 02 May 2017

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