UKH

Hi,
I am hoping to benefit from your experience and advice.

I am in my early 30s and looking to get out of the house more and keep fit. I have been on trekking expeditions as a teen/twenty-something and know it's something I enjoy, but I don't have much recent experience and my fitness isn't what it used to be. I'm considering working towards a mountain leader qualification (I know it will take several years for me to build up fitness, skills and experience on the mountains). The main reasons being: a) it'll be great exercise and good for my physical and mental health b)working towards a goal/qualification is motivating for me and c) when I am qualified I can take groups out and earn some extra cash.

But, the training and assessment is very expensive, and I'm just wondering if I am being sensible. The people I know who have done the course are all employed in 'outdoor' jobs whose employers paid for their training (unlike me, I work in an office job and would be funding myself.) Also, I don't know anyone who will come with me on my quality mountain days and I don't think it's very sensible for me to go alone at my level of experience. How can I find a group of similarly-aged/experienced walkers?
The other issue is that I don't like heights. That is, I am absolutely fine no matter how high up, so long as my feet are on firm ground and there are 5 feet between me and a sheer drop. I am pretty unhappy on a narrow ledges or steep scrambling.

Bearing this in mind, I am being foolish? In your opinion do I sound like the sort of candidate who should be attempting to become a mountain leader? Have you any advice for me?

Many thanks.

In reply to AngJ:

I suspect ML will require you to be competent and capable of being 'in charge' on the type of ground you hate should the shit hit the fan, so I guess you are unlikely to attain the qualification. However, there are other 'lesser' qualifications such as the Scouting 'terrain 1' permit which may be of interest.

In reply to AngJ:

You can do a) and b) without being an ML(S) or working towards it. Set yourself an ambitious but acheivable goal (such as being able to do the Welsh 3000s for example) and you can satisfy both these needs. In my experience finding a bit of work here and there can be quite tricky, most providers I've come across look to use the same instructors regularly rather than on occasional weekends.

But, the training and assessment is very expensive, and I'm just wondering if I am being sensible. The people I know who have done the course are all employed in 'outdoor' jobs whose employers paid for their training (unlike me, I work in an office job and would be funding myself.)

In the grand scheme, ML(S) is not that expensive - c. £700 for 10(?) days training/assessment is far cheaper than say, MIA which is nearly £1k for 10 days. A bit or an apples an oranges situation I'll admit, but still...

Also, I don't know anyone who will come with me on my quality mountain days and I don't think it's very sensible for me to go alone at my level of experience. How can I find a group of similarly-aged/experienced walkers?

Could always go solo, post on here (or UKH) or several/many groups on Facebook.

The other issue is that I don't like heights. That is, I am absolutely fine no matter how high up, so long as my feet are on firm ground and there are 5 feet between me and a sheer drop. I am pretty unhappy on a narrow ledges or steep scrambling. Bearing this in mind, I am being foolish? In your opinion do I sound like the sort of candidate who should be attempting to become a mountain leader? Have you any advice for me?Many thanks.

Not a big issue for ML(S) - the upper end of the award is leading grade 1 scrambles IF (and only if) you think the group is up to it. But having said that, you should be confident on these yourself. For example, I'd consider Crib Goch with a competant group the very top end of ML(S) work. Even if you're a little uncertain now, practice makes perfect! The more of that sort of terrain you experience the more you'll become comfortable with it. If not look at the Hill and Moorland Leader, which woiuld enable you to lead walks with a limit on certain terrains and elevations.

The real question that I think you should be considering is whether you want to use the award to improve your personal skills for your own enjoyment in the hills, or whether you do actually want to lead groups. If its only the former, then there are probably more efficent (both financially and with regards to your time) ways about it than following the ML(S) scheme. If you do really want to lead groups, then great! Go for it in that case. Once you register there is no time limit (as far as I know) to complete the award.

Please note that these are just my opinions and I'm sure others will have differing input

In reply to AngJ:
Excellent to have goals and you have the right idea but I wonder if you are trying to run before you can walk. How about tackling one of the mountain training skills courses, and building up your fitness and experience. http://www.mountain-training.org/walking/skills-and-awards/hill-and-mountai...
You'll have a much better idea of what ML requires after spending some time in the UK hills.
Oh yeah and as someone who does this for a living, don't get too excited about the cash!

In reply to AngJ:

There used to be an award for walking in less rugged terrain, I think it was called the Walking Leader Award. It still demanded a high degree of navigation skills but this might be more appropriate considering your dislike of exposure.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


Yes, Mountain Training have two tiers of leadership awards below ML, the Lowland Leader and the Hill & Moorland Leader. They also have a couple of courses aimed at just learning the basic skills rather than leading others which might be a good starting point for AngJ.

http://www.mountain-training.org/walking

Obviously, lots of other organisations run introductory courses too and I'm not sure how common those non-leadership Mountain Training courses actually are.

In reply to AngJ:

I've just got in from a day assessing some ML candidates, we went up the North Ridge of Tryfan, which is pretty standard ML assessment terrain. If that makes you shudder then maybe aim for one of the other awards like HML or LL. Just because the scrambling stuff scares you, doesn't mean it always will, you can build up to it

In reply to AngJ:
Good on you, this is a great idea. I did my ML training purely for personal development and - at the time - had no intention of going on to do the award. The training itself was really good and gave me more confidence in walking alone and being comfortable on all sorts of environments. I did go on and do the assessment, but have only used the qualification a couple of times 'professionally' - my 'day' job is as an academic - you don't have to be working in the outdoors to do something like this.

As others have said, there are other quals which are less 'mountainous' and if you do find 'ML terrain' scary, look at something like the Hill and Moorland leader qual - you get essentially the same stuff as ML but not the steep ground and ropework. When I did my training I wasn't comfortable on the steep ground (the result of an accident in the Cairngorms a couple of years previously), but dealt with that in the 3.5 years between doing the training and the assessment.

In reply to AngJ:

I did ML also as a desk worker. It is totally achievable, but it does require a lot of dedication. I spent probably close to 2 years doing something probably on average every second weekend. Hillwalking became my main hobby (along with climbing) to pretty much the exclusion of everything else. A few thoughts:

- I highly recommend joining a mountaineering club (or even two or three). One of the best ways to meet like-minded people and get experienced.
- The course is only a small part of the cost. Each weekend away to get QMDs cost me a minimum of 40-50 pounds (travel costs mostly), and sometimes even 100-200 pounds (if renting a car and staying at a bnb for a night or so). With the requirement for 40+ QMDs (and not every weekend will result in two of them), you can see it will take a lot of time and money. Then you have equipment (you'll eventually discover that it's a lot better to have choices of equipment - e.g. boots, you'll want tough waterproof ones for shoulder season, and light airy ones for dry summer days, and then perhaps winter boots too)
- I doubt you will recoup your cash spent during training unless you really make this your main hobby and become very skilled at it. For me I didn't mind, the experience was worth all the time and money I spent.
- I think there is a small (very small) overlap between what you're afraid of and where an ML is expected to be confident. As others have said, the other awards are probably a better target.
- With all that said, I think it was one of the best decisions I ever made

In reply to AngJ:

I did my ML, from a deskjob, for my own development and enjoyment. Now I'm out in the Outdoors every weekend in the summer.
One variable that hasn't been discussed, so far, is your location. Can you easily get to the terrain, mountains that you desire to walk and eventually lead in?
Mountain Training have Lowland Leader Award, Hill and Moorland and the Mountain Leader (Summer). Their Website will explain the different levels. Other options are the Countryside Leader award that fits somewhere between the LLA and HML. Also there is the Basic Expedition Leader (Has been recently rebranded).
Any of these could be a stepping stone towards an ML, especially if you live in the Lowlands. Or start with an NNAS navigation award.
Experience wise there would be the Scouts/Guides, or seek out a local DofE Award centre and volunteer to get involved in the whole award including their expeditions.
This comment may be popular but HF Holidays seek volunteers to lead their walking program. I used them to gain logbook group days as well as have an enjoyable time.
Local Meet-up walking groups, Mountaineering clubs, Facebook groups, Ramblers lots of options to find walking companions at all levels.
An Outdoor First Aid course will also need to be factored into the costs.

Get out from behind that desk, stop hiding, get into the hills and enjoy yourself.

In reply to AngJ:

Hi, I just want to say thank you everyone for so many helpful replies. It's very encouraging to hear from people similar to myself who have trained purely as a hobby, it's helpful to know that my idea is at least a good one in principle!

I'm really grateful to those who suggest that other awards may be batter tackled first and I think that's a very good idea for me, particularly considering my issue with heights. I will research the ones that you've mentioned and think I'll probably go for another award in the short/medium term, but I still want to try and get in some quality mountain days and see if I can get a bit more comfortable with the scrambling/drops. If I can then I will be in a good place to go continue on to mountain leader in the future.

Thanks for mentioning the North Ridge of Tryfan jezb1, it's useful to know what sort of routes I'd need to be able to cope with, are there any more anyone can mention? Crib goch, for example, is a route that I am reluctant to try, firstly because the photos and videos on Youtube turn my stomach, but also because I know of 2 experienced walkers who have fallen to their deaths on it. I guess mountain leaders would be expected to handle crib goch?

I live in north Wales, so fortunately I won't have to travel too far to get out on the hills.

Many thanks again!

In reply to AngJ:

As others have said it's a great course that I would highly recommend. Going on it with other like minded people and under supervision the course leader may help you get happy with steep ground/ scrambling terrain.

Also worth looking at is doing one of the Hill Skills/ Mountain Skills courses. These are aimed at people who want to upskill themselves to a high standard, but don't want to lead people in the hills. So they are essentially the ML etc, minus the leadership stuff. So they are shorter and cheaper. You could get a sense of progression by doing one then the other. Or there is also the National Navigation Award Scheme, which there are three levels to. Bronze, silver and gold. Which are navigation competency tests that you can work through.

All are great, and I'd recommend them all. Perhaps try a hill skills or bronze NNAS to dip your toe in. And have a chat with your instructor to get a better idea of what you want.

About the side job as ML.. Don't have your hopes very high. Day rates are at £100 - £150 and ML market is overcrowded. As people said above many providers like to stick to same guides. As freelancer you are likely to end up with "exiting" groups walking on Miners Track to Snowdon.

My main job is at desk in City and I did ML. At that time I was a competent climber and walker working with adults on weekends. Most of people I met on training and award were in similar boat. They were already in the industry. After all ML does cost a lot of cash and gives so little I would imagine people will do it only if they need it.

In reply to AngJ:

The other thing you have to consider is how best you as an individual learn, what motivates you and how you interact with people / strangers.

Others have mentioned the benefits of an externally 'taught, structured and assessed' learning processes, but this is also an expected response (the responders have all done the above 'process'). If a taught progression / syllabus to follow suits you as an individual, a course or ML approach could be right for you, and may fit with the 'goal' achievement element of your motivation.

However if such an approach doesn't motivate, and you are a self learner there are no hill-skills you can't teach yourself (or with friends) by a combination of getting out there and doing it, a little bit of reading and setting yourself little tests / exercises/ goals to do while your out on the hill, and assessing what you could have done better.

The other thing to consider viz 'leading groups', is are you a 'people person'. Do you like meeting strangers, empathising, connecting with them ect to try and give them the best company and experience from the day, and to also learn things from being with them. If so ML may be a way of engendering that. If not the end 'goal' may not be really for you.

If however your answer is yes, there are lots of people 'wandering round the hills' with an ML ticket. Consider what other interests or skills have you got to provide more interest to you and differentiate you from others

For example I know people whom take groups for yoga or meditation in the hills, run geological field excursions, or wildlife / botanical tours. They have the 'ML ticket' to let them get away from the road / into the environment. But they and their 'clients' have no interest (at least on their commercial days) in long days of classic hill walking, scrambling, steeper ground ect.

I thought along time ago about getting tickets ML, MIA, MIC ect and came to the conclusion I enjoyed being out for myself and with friends, and wasn't going to manage to be a people person with everyone, most of the time (not that I'm a grumpy bugger, just I came to an honest conclusion about 'me').

In reply to AngJ: with regard to scrambling, maybe consider getting out with an experienced climber and follow them on some roped scrambles or short very easy rock climbs . That way you can learn how to move on steep ground in more or less complete safety, short routes would also mean you're learning in a more controlled environment. You can then apply those skills in a mountain environment.

In reply to AngJ:


As someone substantially more scared of heights than average myself, I wouldn't see this as an insurmountable obstacle, so long as, at some level, you have the desire to be in those amazing places in the mountains.

In reply to AngJ:

>Thanks for mentioning the North Ridge of Tryfan jezb1, it's useful to know what sort of routes I'd need to be able to cope with, are there any more anyone can mention? Crib goch, for example, is a route that I am reluctant to try, firstly because the photos and videos on Youtube turn my stomach, but also because I know of 2 experienced walkers who have fallen to their deaths on it. I guess mountain leaders would be expected to handle crib goch?

I like to get candidates on ground that's on the edge of the ML scheme's scope to help identify their judgement capabilities. I have taken groups on ML groups on Crib Goch, but not for a while. Think along the lines of Tryfan, the Griben Ridge, that sort of terrain.

In reply to AngJ:

I am quite overwhelmed by the thoughtful responses, thank you very much everyone Definitely feeling excited about getting out and challenging myself and finding out what I am capable of. So glad I came to this forum!

In reply to AngJ:


The way to look at it, is that while it might seem a hobby to start with, if you train and gain the experience to earn the award, you might find that you then use it for the benefit of others. I did mine as a rather odd birthday present to myself (!) driving up alone after work from S Devon to do all the training and then assessment over many weekends.

Best thing I have ever done and although initially it was from a selfish intent...I have used it for much more worthy volunteering purposes over many years since!

As for ML terrain, a particular favourite of mine in N Wales is Seniors Ridge, which with a bit of wandering can be made as hard or as easy as you like!

In reply to AngJ:


The hive mind of UKC is very useful - if you don't know something about anything someone here will!

In reply to AngJ:

Why not do a Mountain Skills course first to see how you get on?

Intact, I have a space on one in North Wales this weekend this weekend.

In reply to AngJ:


Without being flippant, I was scared sh&tless the first few times I drove on a Motorway. It gets easier with practice. Apparently.

Are you a member of an 'outdoor' club where experience can be gained without being on your own?

I did several intermediate ML courses over the years and they helped greatly towards being self sufficient in the mountains. I didn't go for assessment, partly because of cost and, I wasn't aiming for qualifications to take people out.

Only advice I can offer is - Go for it now rather than wish you had years later.

Good Luck.

In reply to AngJ:

Doing your ML is a GREAT idea: you will love the course and process and will learn a lot. Do not allow yourself to get too stressed or anxious abut the training course: it is a training course, designed to teach you, you are not expected to be operating at the level of an ML.

If, after the training course, you decide the steep stuff isn't for you, you can either register for an assessment for a lower award, or cash in your chips and enjoy all the new found skills you have learned!

The ML process is amazing, and very enjoyable. It will develop you massively as a Hillwalker and hugely increase your confidence in the mountains. The steep stuff is like any fear: the more you are exposed to it, the less stressful it will become.

As for like minded people: look up "Trainee Mountain Leaders" group on Facebook for lots of people in a similar position.

If you would like any advice: drop me an email: r.simpson@horizonexpeditions.co.uk

Ryan

In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp:

Thanks, I will definitely look into it! My weekend is booked up with Easter stuff, but good to know it is offered by someone in North Wales

In reply to RyanS:

Thanks very much Ryan that's much appreciated

In reply to AngJ:

You will find all the Mountain Skills Courses on here https://mt.tahdah.me/course

There are a number of providers who run courses in North Wales

In reply to AngJ:

I tend to agree with the ScraggyGoat.

Training courses are one way to learn, whether it's just a skills course, or a course leading to a 'ticket' of some sort.

The other way to do it is just to get out and do it, with some book reading in between to find the skills, which you practice whilst you're out. 'Mountaincraft and Leadership' might be a good book to start with, though there are hundreds to choose from. Then there's the internet...

Instruction is an industry these days, so you are likely to find those who have been on courses recommending courses; that's natural. A good course should be a fast track way of learning skills, but experience is only learned through experience... As with everything, start gently, build up your fitness, skills, confidence and experience and go on to tackle bigger things.

It sounds like you don't have any like-minded friends; you can learn on your own, but it obviously needs a bit more care about safety, and it can be more fun being out with other people; if you're happier on your own, you may not be cut out to be an instructor. I'm happy on my own or in company. I've never done any courses, but I love helping supervise a school's DofE expeditions, using a lifetime's experience of hillwalking.

In reply to AngJ:
Here's some thoughts for you from a worn out old WML. ML is a walking qualification, not a climbing qualification. Most of the punters on this forum are climbers and bang on a bit about ropes and stuff. ML is for people who expect to lead or supervise novices on mountain walking trips; you are expected to have substantial personal skills and experience before ML training. Most of the pressure in ML assessment comes from party management and micro nav. The climbing element is minor.

Glenmore Lodge offer courses in mountain skills which are pretty much the same syllabus as ML weeks, but without the added pressures. Party management experience (you need log book evidence of all sorts of groups) can be gained through volunteering for youth groups and by leading Ramblers Association trips (RA are consenting adults and not that fussy about qualifications). Top emphasis is placed on navigational ability. The fast way to improve your nav standards is through competitive orienteering; you can find your local club at www.britishorienteering.org.uk/find_a_club

As has been said, the commercial ML market is swamped with would-be's and hopefuls who will work for dirt money but there is work out there for female ML's; the schools are desperate for them as DofE exped supervisors. [good evening otter-lady]

Do what you feel is right for you, and good luck.

In reply to tinnishill:

Hello!

I've noticed a fade in the female ML effect, I think there are more of us now?

Someone recently said on another thread that whole there is an excess of MLs good ones are still in demand as these are harder to come by. The trick is to get yourself established as a preferred staff member.