UKH

Stanage Popular While watching someone called Roysten lead Easter Rib today at a packed crag, when he was around 15 ft from the top his apparently suicidal belayer ask him "oh youve done it now should i take you off belay??"What was this guy thinking?? taking someone of belay as they were climbing on a route of that standard with only 3 runners in anyway.The leader kept his cool and informed the idiot that it was not a good idea.

In reply to johnwarburton:

Doubt he's going to be belaying him again!

In reply to johnwarburton:


More murderous than suicidal, I'd have thought. Unless he was planning on spotting him.

In reply to johnwarburton:

You appear to know nothing of this team. Why don't you keep your comments to yourself and let them make their own decisions.
Its common practise on longer routes/challenges between teams that know each other well.

In reply to ashtond6:

Really!!!!

In reply to johnwarburton:

Clueless spelling. Now that is unforgivable! Just kidding.

James

In reply to johnwarburton: Top 15ft is relatively easy compared with the crux section. Maybe they'd done it before and the leader was only concerned about the crux bit.

On the face of it, your viewpoint is sensible, but there may be hidden context that effectively forms mitigating circumstances.

However, on a personal note, even if my 1st paragraph above was correct, if it was me, since I was on belay I'd want to stay on it all the way to the top even if the last bit was dead easy.

In reply to johnwarburton:
Surely s/he was just joking?

Not everyones idea of a laugh but a fair few climbers I know would/could come out with something like that in jest.

In reply to Tig44:


Really. Thanks for your addition.

In reply to johnwarburton:

I'd be a bit lax belaying anyone called Royston

In reply to johnwarburton:

What's the problem, aren't routes at stanage short? More like extended boulder problems. Just have a mat at the bottom, take your top off and crack on up, belayed or not.

In reply to ashtond6:
In case the situation should ever arise. I DON'T want you belaying me

Joking aside. It may be "common" practice but it is not good practice. It denotes a lax attitude to safe climbing in a two person situation. There are occasions where you might take someone off belay before they have finished climbing, for instance if they are short on rope. If you are alpine climbing then you may well be moving together for speed but that is a different thing. Another reason may be rope drag. But in all instances where communication is possible it is the lead climber who makes the call not the belayer and I have seen too many people come a cropper on the "easy" finish to make that call until I am certain that I am safe.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

How do you know these guys aren't on a timed challenge? Or on a routes per day aim?
Like I said, fairly standard practise on these kind of things

In reply to ashtond6:
See my edit.

Incidently I did Easter rib as one of my routes per day a few years back

In reply to johnwarburton:


They probably had their reasons; you're being a bit overly judgemental, in my opinion. The potential dangers are pretty obvious, and they were probably well aware of them. It's not like they were advocating the procedure for general consumption.

In reply to johnwarburton:

A lot of people climbing have never had to hold a real lead fall and so don't know how important good concentration and technique is when belaying. Holding your partner taking an unexpected whipper is very different to taking their weight when lowering off. I was leading once with a very good friend belaying. I was a bit wobbly at the crux and shouted to him to 'watch me'. 'Yeah yeah no problem' was the reply. I turned to see him belaying one handed while drinking a cup of tea with the other. After some not so polite reminders that belaying is a two handed activity, he reluctantly put down his drink. So with confidence shaken somewhat I managed the crux. Literally two seconds later I hear him shout up to me 'say cheese'. You've guessed it - he was now taking photos. Still a very good friend, but I never climbed with him again.

In reply to Pbob:

Belaying is a one handed operation, but taking in rope often requires two hands. Drinking teas and using a camera are perfectly permissible ..........if you can judge when its ok.

I once got a black eye taking a photo when the leader fell. I stopped him single handed no problem, but the rope whipping tight up from the belay plate smacked the camera into my face! He was delighted with the photo [pre digital era so can't post] and not a bit upset at being belayed one handed.

I like climbing with people who are ambidextrous, capable and experienced. I'd be really quite worried if my belayer operated in pure text book fashion, whatever that is )

In reply to top cat:


All I ask of a belayer is to do one thing and one thing only - belay me. I don't want them drinking tea. I don't want them taking photos. I don't even want them telling their ten funniest stories to the multitudes. I just want them to do one thing and one thing only - belay me.

I'm not being precious about this. I've held some shocking falls and I've taken some shocking falls. When you belay someone you (literally) hold their life in your hands. Yes, even on a climbing wall.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

I've taken hundreds of photos while belaying - maybe thousands - and I don't think I've ever endangered anyone in the process, and this includes holding falls while looking for photo opportunities. I've also had lots of conversations while driving and - you're not going to believe this - belayed people around corners where I couldn't even see them!

There are limits to what each individual, including me, is happy doing, depending on experience and confidence. If a leader is looking sketchy at any time of course the camera gets dropped onto my wrist loop or neck strap without delay, and of course also the brake hand is held securely at all times. And if I'm chatting I might suddenly become unresponsive, or maybe say "give me a mo..." and make it obvious a situation now needs more full attention. I think it's best not to rely on hard and fast rules that assume everyone is similarly experienced, competent and confident. Like pretty much everything else in life really.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Agreed. I have no problem with my belayer having a casual conversation with the people next door or the rest of a group, as long as they're still actively paying attention, and shut up if I express concern/think I'm going to fall off the crux. I had a belayer indoors at a noisy wall once who, mid-route, stopped paying out slack after I'd stopped to contemplate the crux for a while. No ability to go up and no desire to fall off and find out if they actually had me, I was on the wall for about two minutes screaming at them while they stared into space/at other groups/at anything other than me. Much shouting occurred once I got back to terra firma

Tea and cameras, not so great unless you're talking multipitch and guide mode. Besides, who wants yet another rubbish bum photo?

In reply to johnwarburton:

Maybe they were just having a laugh? Partners of mine have called out a cheery "off belay" to me previously whilst I've been engrossed in some difficulty of other, the bastards.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I couldn't agree more Mick, the most important job in climbing is belaying.
I hate it when you look down and see your belayer not paying attention and not watching you but chatting away to others.

Chris

In reply to tehmarks:

Besides, who wants yet another rubbish bum photo?

It's not that bad!

In reply to johnwarburton:

I shout off belay to my partners regularly whilst mid lead. After a brief conversation is best and ideally mid crux for full effect.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:


Or maybe it denotes a competent climbing partnership and enough experience not to be bound by "good practice".

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well it would I hope denote an established climbing partnership, where each understood the other. I note in the OP that the belayer says "SHOULD I take you off belay" which denotes experience in this.
But your phrase "not bound by good practice" is a curious one. Implying that at a certain level of experience you can abandon "good practice". So by that token it would be ok for someone to drive at over 100 in a built up area, without a seat belt whilst drinking because they are a racing driver with enough experience to get away with it.
Let's face it climbing is inherently a risky business, so we don't climb to be safe. But taking someone off belay before the completion of a climb seems pointless at best. They still have to set up a belay at the top, unless they are intent on abandoning gear, so I can not see that being taken off belay before completion of the climb actually helps in any significant way. At that point you are effectively soloing with a rope for no real gain

In reply to Robert Durran:


Quite right. When leaders tell me they are safe and that I can take them off I wilfully ignore them by giving them a few armfuls of slack but keeping hold of the rope. It's an understanding I have.

Anyway I find it's quicker than all that faffing about taking them off if they are in a real hurry to get to the top.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:
No there are times where you belay by instinct. They are out of sight or windy, the rate of rope being taken makes you think they are safe and taking in. It's a flat top and a big walk back to anchors, so you take them off. Especially on routes you both know, often you might agree in advance at point x I will give you a shout of ok or thumbs up and take me off; it avoids the need for that embarrassing shouting up and down the crag etc.. I don't think they were suggesting taking someone off mid route where as you say you are exposed to risk.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

>So by that token it would be ok for someone to drive at over 100 in a built up area, without a seat belt whilst drinking because they are a racing driver with enough experience to get away with it.

No but it might be fine for them to drive on a motorway at 100. Seems a bit extreme comparing soloing an E1 to this. I've seen plenty of people at stanage soloing that grade and harder. Never heard of anyone performing what you're suggesting.

Without context, to me, the initial posters outrage sounded like a misunderstood joke.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:


I really, really hate this phrase "good practice" (or "best practice") which is increasingly used as a weapon for criticising anyone who does not conform to some set of rules apparently passed down from some make-believe ultimate authority on climbing. There is no such thing. Climbing is about using your experience to make your own decisions.


The analogy is nonsense. Driving at 100mph is braking the law. There are no rules (thank goodness) in climbing and those who try to impose them by use of this "good/best practice" bollocks can get lost.


Maybe they are quite happy soloing and it allows their partner to get other stuff done (maybe putting on their boots, keeping warm, eating something etc.)

In reply to john arran:


John, you say 'of course' and I have no doubt that 'of course' applies to you 100% of the time. But I wouldn't assume it for everyone. I see an awful lot of shit belaying at crags and walls - even without distractions. On a probabilistic basis, I suspect the more distractions the more chance of shit belaying.

Right now I'm looking at a guidebook photo of a quite serious little trad route. The belayer isn't looking at the leader - I certainly would be. Yes, she may have looked down just for a second or two when the photo was shot. But she's also only got one hand, seemingly the wrong way round, on the ropes.

Is shit belaying becoming increasingly common? Formerly many people came into climbing via hillwalking and learned to belay in the mountains where things felt somewhat scary. Nowadays many people come into climbing via walls where things feel much safer. Perhaps this difference is reflected in belaying attitudes.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

I totally agree with you Mick.
A close friend of mine was leading a climb when the words "You need a Combi boiler mate!"
floated up from the belayer who was on his mobile phone at the time.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I prefer to be belayed with an auto assist device when climbing indoors as there are too many distractions. At least with something like a GriGri or a Click-up you would get a second chance if the belayer was not paying attention. We all like to think we are 100% attentive but I think everyone is distracted at times. I do not believe anyone who says they NEVER take their eyes off the leader. It's probably only a matter of time before auto assist devices become mandatory indoors, it's already the case in some walls in the USA I believe.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


I agree. It never crosses my mind that I might be dropped climbing outdoors but is always in the back of my mind indoors. I am therefore much more reluctant to take falls when climbing indoors than when sport climbing outdoors.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I agree too. When I started climbing, belaying - with gloves and without devices - was obviously much dodgier, but (eventually) that instilled a great respect for the process and its weaknesses. The most casual belaying I have generally seen in recent years has been with GriGri's.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Me too!
Once, when at a climbing wall I was approached by the 'belay police' and told I was not using 'best practice'.
Strange, as I was using techniques I was taught at an outdoor centre years ago. So they were always dangerous
and unsafe?

It's a bit like saying your car drum brakes were always unsafe because we now have discs and are not complementary.

In reply to brianjcooper:
The problem with "best practice" is that it can be wall specific so becomes meaningless. At one wall near me bowlines are banned whilst at the other an appropriate knot is encouraged. Which is best practice? I do however have some sympathy with the ethos indoors but if I'm 2000 metres up an alpine North face you can stick it where the sun don't shine.

Al

In reply to brianjcooper:


Brilliant! Sums up the crazy absurdity of life.

Shakespeare would have smiled...

Mick

In reply to Robert Durran:


I see a big difference between the two, FWIW. I've stopped using the term "best practice" because, as you say, it implies that there's only one right way. I don't mind "good practice" because it allows variation.

In reply to bpmclimb:


But only so much variation.......... it is still implying an arbitrary cut off between "good" and "bad", when any given practice should be judged on its merits in context.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Not completely arbitrary, hopefully. Perhaps a slightly fuzzy line. For example, I would say that it's good practice to tie into a harness with either a rethreaded fig 8 or a bowline plus stopper, while it's definitely not good practice to use a granny knot!

In reply to GridNorth:


To be honest, Al: if you'd managed to get 2000 metres up an alpine North Face - assuming you mean "The Alps" here - it seems likely that both you and your colleague would have overshot the summit by some margin, and the fine detail of how you were attached to your respective ends of the ropes would have become somewhat academic! But I know what you mean.

Ok - I'll shut up now...

In reply to Ian Parsons:
Good point. That's what happens when your old imperial brain is still struggling with metric.

Al

In reply to Robert Durran:
Well first of all the driving thing is a very poor example and I apologise for that. You know what it is like you get out of bed and your brain isn't in gear.

I disagree with your view that there is no such thing as best practice. As clearly there is. But before we get all hot under the collar I am not criticising at this point but exploring the notion of good practice.
Climbing is a risky activity, I think we can all agree on that, but when we talk about best or good practice we are really talking about how we manage that risk and it is not a black or white thing either. You may be very happy to solo a route, I do it, many people do it. It is the most natural and free form of climbing. I say this to establish that we take risks that others wouldn’t and which may be fatal to us. But the management of those risks comes under good practice. So for instance soloing whilst drunk would not make it into best practice. Even if you personally had done it loads of times and not got killed.
When we climb with others with ropes then we are doing it for a specific reasons. We are doing it to be sociable on one level but we are also doing it to manage the risk and in that situation there is best practice.
Good/best practice simply means “I want to get up this piece of rock as safe as possible within the constraints I have set for myself (ie trad, sport, ladders etc.)”
So you expect certain things.
Aside from ropes and gear….
You want an attentive belayer and a technical repertoire of skills commensurate with the grade/situation.
So for instance would you be happy to climb with someone who fell asleep while belaying you or went off for a piss (I have done this but I did tell them first and tied them off), would you be happy to climb on their 30 year old rope, indeed would you be happy to climb with them if they brought you up a climb and you discovered that they hadn’t even bothered to set up a belay? Climbing as we have said is inherently risky but a given situation is made more or less risky by our own actions. So in extremis we may find ourselves unable to comply with “good” practice. We may well find ourselves in the margins of high risk where “What if?” is a high chance of failure but there is little choice.

>Maybe they are quite happy soloing and it allows their partner to get other stuff >done (maybe putting on their boots, keeping warm, eating something etc.)

May be they are. May be they are both happy with that. But there is no escaping that you have added an avoidable risk. The question at what point for yourself is lack of good practice unacceptable? Or if you really don't like the term "good/best" practice at what point to you consider practice to be "stupid" or "insane"?

And finally.
>The analogy is nonsense. Driving at 100mph is braking [I love that] the law. There are no >rules (thank goodness) in climbing.

Criminal charges were considered by a court in Heerlen in 2003 when an experienced
climber belaying another experienced climber was distracted by other people and
unclipped the belay. His friend fell and was killed. The belayer was convicted of
manslaughter and given a six month suspended prison sentence.

.....

In 2008 a criminal court in Amsterdam considered manslaughter charges brought on
similar facts. A climber was belaying his friend on one climb whilst his girlfriend
was belayed by somebody else whilst she climbed another route. When she
descended and untied from her rope the defendant also untied although his leader was
still high on the wall. He fell and died. The defendant was convicted of manslaughter
but did not receive a prison sentence. The judgment was appealed and the belayer
was found to be not guilty on the curious ground that he had untied himself from the
rope in a series of automatic actions.

......

A climber, who was injured when his climbing partner failed to belay properly
successfully brought a claim before a court in Castellon in 2000 because the belayer
was negligent.

......


In another case in Michigan (Mankoski v- Mieras) the Claimant was lead climbing
and fell and hit the floor because the Defendant failed to belay properly. They were
both experienced climbers and friends who had gone to the wall together. The
Defendant argued that the Claimant was aware of and accepted the inherent risks of
injury in this activity and had signed a release (waiver) at the request of the wall
operator. The court accepted the Defendants argument and the release signed by the
Claimant was accepted as proof that the Plaintiff had accepted the risk.

Don’t be getting any ideas now.

In reply to various: Interesting discussion.

Belaying is a task that varies considerably depending on the style and grade of climbing as well as location. Communication can vary from trivial to non-existent, the time frame from seconds to hours and the consequences of a fall from none to fatal.

As such, in the real world, Mick's suggestion that a belayer should ALWAYS be paying 100% attention is not really reasonable (even if they are making things as easy as possible by wearing belay glasses). Equally, it should be obvious that there is not "one size fits all" approach.

Even a cursory understanding of human psychology suggests that taking measures to ensure the belayer concentrates most at the point of highest risk is a better approach than trying to insist on a constant and high level of attentiveness. Equally, there is a good argument that once the duration becomes long enough the potential benefits of using an assisted breaking belay device probably increase.

My general approach to climbing is possibly the opposite of Mick's. I generally assume my belayer probably isn't paying complete attention and isn't continually looking up, unless I actively ensure otherwise. That is normally through the time honoured tradition of yelling "Watch me!" at the greatest possible volume if I start to get scared or before attempting a crux sequence. It is also accomplished by discussing the route with my belayer beforehand so that they know exactly what sections are most difficult or dangerous and how and where to belay for them. Finally, it means I try to ensure I have eye contact with my belayer before lowering either indoors or on sport routes.

More generally, it also means discussing with my belayer what is a suitable amount of slack for the route and how dynamic a belay is appropriate. Unfortunately, again in the real world, there is a definite trade-off between having enough slack to easily clip and not be short roped against having the shortest possible fall. Unless you have an open and frank discussion with your belayer there is no point complaining later about either swinging violently into the rock or taking a massive fall.

Far too many climbers think that their belaying is excellent despite a complete lack of regular experience in holding leader falls. Equally, at the same time they often hold unrealistic expectations of their belayers. A bit more realism on both sides would not go amiss.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

totally agree.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Of course I'm not arguing that there are not safer and less safe ways of going about things in a particular situation; I just object to the way the terms "good/best practice" seem to have been appropriated by a faction which use them as if inscribed on stone by some unassailable authority in order to police the decisions of others.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well I will agree with you there. I am no fan of "comittee speak" where terms are appropriated to hinder rather than help.

In a similar vein is "Health and safety". As a H&S rep. I am a fan of health and safety at work but it annoys the hell out of me when someone tells me that they can't or I can't do something on the grounds of health and safety. I reply "of course you can. Just do the risk assessment, acknowledge the risks involved and get on with it." It is not about never doing risky things, just about knowing (and limiting) the risks involved in the things you are doing.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think you're rather overlooking the fact that your climbing doesn't take place in splendid isolation.

There is an obvious inter-connectedness between climbers. Most people I know climb with multiple partners at varying times. (You might be intensely antisocial and not, but I wouldn't dare assume). The approach and conduct of climbers influences other climbers and vice-versa.

As such, having broad agreement on how the majority in any locale approach any style or type of climbing (i.e. "good practice") is both useful and highly beneficial. At a basic level it allows interoperability. Using a knot that your partner can check adds to YOUR safety. Using a standardised series of climbing calls adds to YOUR safety. Having a partner who can anticipate your actions adds to YOUR safety. More generally, doing things in a standardised manner reduces errors when stressed.

Secondly, for novices, seeing other climbers being relatively consistent (and safe) in behaviour is vastly beneficial. It greatly aids their safety and development if by copying the majority they increase their safety rather than be confused to a variety of bespoke approaches with myriads of different specific advantages and disadvantages.

By all means do whatever you want, but don't delude yourself that, if everyone did their own thing, there was no online commentary, no manuals and no formal instruction, it wouldn't have consequences.

You might view a level of uniformity as dumbing down but the exact opposite is probably nearer the mark. It's far more likely to result in the up-skilling of those newer to climbing than ever limit the actions of experienced climbers.

Whilst an unimaginative "belt and braces" approach being expressed by those with limited knowledge, at the expense of nuance can often be irritating, on balance it does little harm and often some good.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

It does if I am soloing. Though usually I climb with a partner. I feel under no obligation to set an example to anybody else by exhibiting "good practice".

I am not objecting to standardisation among partners or close knit groups of climbers; there are obviously advantages. What I object to is the criticism from others outside such partnerships or groups citing "good/best practice". That is not to say that there should be no discussion about the way we do things; it is just the way that some people seem to see "good practice" as somehow set in stone and unarguable - this actually stifles positive discussion.

In reply to bpmclimb:


+1

I have no problem with the terms 'good practice' or 'bad practice'. Of course I object when something is labelled 'bad practice' when it isn't (which doesn't necessarily mean it is 'good practice'). To relate this to climbing, I would say that needlessly putting your partner at risk (without any signal from them that they are happy with the situation and more just through incompetence/arrogance) would often constitute 'bad practice'. Personally I don't think putting yourself at risk is as bad (but before people object, it obviously depends on the situation!).

In reply to johnwarburton:


So many replies here about regular teams on comfortable ground, timed challenges etc. But who's considered the possibility that the belayer was simply a beginner asking for advice, which he got? Does that make him an idiot? No. And yet the OP's made that assumption while simultaneously admitting to not knowing the team...

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


The 100% related to John always having one hand on the brake end of the rope - and obviously I'd trust him utterly. Totally agree, nobody always pays 100% attention all of the time - that's too much to ask of anyone. All I ask is that they're in a reasonable position to do their best.

For what it's worth, I have reservations about my own belaying. My biggest weakness is a tendency to daydream. But the 'mental background' is always the same. From the second that someone ties in and leaves the ground, as far as I'm concerned, they're in a danger zone.

Nobody gets it right 100% of the time. I don't. An incident a couple of years ago haunts me. It was complicated but... it should never have happened. The penalty was relatively light but it could so easily have been terminal. I should have spoken up beforehand but didn't.

Agree totally with tactical discussions twixt climber and belayer. Especially with new routes (with possibly friable rock), I'll go through key safety points again and again - especially if it's trad.

None of us can get it right all of the time But we can all try to get it right all of the time.

Mick

In reply to johnwarburton:

You've started something here John!

In reply to johnwarburton: I remember someone saying that to me as I was leading on Craig Dorys, and I didn't blame them. They'd nearly been wiped out by several flying holds and most of my gear would have ripped. I did consider asking them to observe me from a safe distance through binoculars, and from somewhere they had a signal to the coastguard.

"indeed would you be happy to climb with them if they brought you up a climb and you discovered that they hadn’t even bothered to set up a belay?"


Not done much winter climbing then I take it? I've lost count of the number of non-belays I've been brought up on, either literally no belay, or one so poor that it might as well not have been placed. I still climb with the guys.

In reply to top cat:

I think you are taking my comment out of context there.
If you will look you will notice that I gave provision for the allowance of circumstances. So if no decent belay is availible then you do what you must. However if a decent belay is feasible then you would expect them to use it

In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Fair points both: I should have made the effort to use some smilies )

In reply to top cat:

It isn't only ice though. I well remember belaying on some particularly unsound heather repeating the mantra "Don't F'ing fall" as my second came up