UKH

Considering that the path to and a long way round Llyn Idwal is wide and solidly paved with stone blocks, and that Llyn Idwal is a short and relatively flat walk from Ogwen Cottage, is it now a country park rather than a mountain environment?

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Given the amount of young children and inappropriately dressed adults seen around there recently, I would suggest that it was a country park.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Country park as far as the path boundary.. mountain environment there on?

In reply to Chris_Mellor:


I would say mountain environment - certainly once you reach the lake.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I would say you are dipping your toe in the mountain environment. If it wasn't for the road and you walked from either Capel or Bethesda it would feel different, but the environment would be exactly the same. Think of say cwm glas in the pass.

It can have mtn weather, has mountain features and plants etc..

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Increasingly a venue for photography workshops too.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I don't think country park and mountain environment are mutually exclusive.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Some years ago we set off to Cwm Cneifion from the cafe in appalling weather - rapidly turned to full whiteout somewhere by the edge of the lake. There were only a couple of other cars in the carpark and we passed some people heading down who said it was pretty grim higher up....

We staggered on entirely disorientated and took a series of bearings to try and enter the cwm above the slabs. As we kept getting blown over etc this took some time and I was surprised when the ground flattened out and I tripped over the top of a wooden post in the snow.

After a while I recognised it as the top of the ladder stile between Bristly Ridge and Tryfan. I'm happy to say (1) my winter nav got much better after that, (2) we got proper winters back then, and that (3) Cwm Idwal is a mountain environment which can be wonderful and benign at times, with fewer objective dangers than crossing the road to Greggs the Bakers, and a serious arctic environment at others.

HTH

b

In reply to Chris_Mellor:


Needs a few garden gnomes, birdbaths, a bit of digger work, some information boards, a funded community green initiative for 20 quango people and you have Disneyland like parts of the Lakes. Why leave it alone?

In reply to Chris_Mellor:
The cut-off path that was constructed across the floor of the cwm tips it into country park status for me. No more turning back at the stream or puzzlement at the cleft in the rock. No more failure, no more education.

In reply to Chris_Mellor: In the early 1980's me and my girlfriend, along with many others, failed to leave the car park at the begining of the path because it was thick, hard ice and having no crampons it was impossible to gain any purchase on the sloping ramp that forms the path's begining.
As freakish as that winter was, it gave us a lesson in not taking the mountains for granted.

In reply to baron:

Funny you should say that - exactly the same happened to me and a mate in 2015.

We clawed our way out of the car park, watching a man sliding down towards us on his bum, and finally admitted defeat after about 10m and put our crampons on. Even that was a comedy sketch as we both slithered around trying to hang onto things.

That slope out of the car park is blinkin dangerous.

In reply to Dave the Rave:

And I would suggest you mean "number " rather than "amount" .

In reply to Chris_Mellor:
If its status is reduced to that of a country park then presumably any incidents which take place there could be tackled by the local paramedics rather than calling out the MRT who might have more pressing concerns elsewhere.

In reply to Tom Valentine:


Please explain?

In reply to Dave the Rave:

If you can count them(like new potatoes on a plate) it's number.
If it's a single entity(like mashed potato) it's amount.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Of course it's a mountain environment. The presence of a path, of people, of shell suits, litter and proud parents taking their new-borns outside doesn't alter that. Just like Chamonix is a mountain town; the fact it makes me think it's like Blackpool placed in the alps (harsh, I know; but it does) doesn't alter that either.

T.

In reply to richprideaux:


It's also popular with botanists these days.

In reply to Tom Valentine:


On bank holidays it's mashed potato, so amount is fine then?

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Perhaps I should have used porridge and shredded wheat.....

In reply to Dave the Rave:
What's wrong with having an accessible trail?

It's just a few minutes from the road in a temperate environment.

In reply to Tom Valentine:


How often do call outs occur?

In reply to Roadrunner5:


Thin end of the wedge?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Well you could argue that the A5 through the valley was the not so thin end of the wedge.

In reply to Roadrunner5:
Looks like one so far this year (with "Idwal" in the callout log description) and probably half a dozen last year.

As I said, if it's not wild enough to be considered a mountain environment then presumably a couple of paramedics could see to some of these incidents.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Do you mean for there specifically? Or do you think we shouldn't have accessible trails?

Juan

In reply to JuanTinco:

The usual argument ends up being between those who want no trails at all, accessible or otherwise, and those who want a tarmac track to the top of every hill.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

If you see a chipmunk then you know it's a country park.

In reply to The Ivanator:

And a coffee shop at the start of the path ? tick

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I think if anything it provides a safe area for people to to preventing them getting to dragged to other more unsuitable honeypots.

So one call out so far and they would have probably done the old path or headed up higher we don't know.

A more healthy environmentally aware populace is no bad thing at all. It's cam ideal, it's always been a tourist location.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I don't think SNPA know what they want, I was at a meeting and asked about the new path through the pass and they denied it existed.. yet we used it all the time.

Low level options are no bad thing.

However llanberis has been complaining about tourist sports events recently.. and about the pump storage schemes..

North Wales doesn't have much to offer other than adventure tourism as traditional industries, beach holidays, farming and the quarries are largely gone.

But there's a lot of battling out out between the various stakeholders..

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Like so many mountainous locations I'd say a lot depends on the weather. Descending at dusk in heavy snow and a blizzard a few years ago, with all the paths covered, it certainly felt like a mountain environment!

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Much the same as its always been - paved or not

In reply to Roadrunner5:


It's currently a good path from PyG up to the Pass. We managed to follow it down the other side at the end of last year, but it's little more than a few marker posts with hardly any actual path. Gives the impression of a project that started but ran out of money. Seems to finish at the road a few hundred metres up the road from the CC hut, so there's still a long distance on the road (or cross country) to get any further.

In reply to Roadrunner5:


Nothing? Who said there was. It's easy enough to go when it's quiet.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Quote: "Is Cwm Idwal a mountain environment any more?"

Yes. Absolutely. From anywhere within it you can look in any direction and all you see is . . . .
. . . mountains!

And unless you potter around the lake shore your direction of travel will have an up or down component in it. Tamer than some other areas, maybe. Tamer than it used to be, definitely. But let not the best be the enemy of the good.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

A very timely post, this, old friend.

So far, the people who genuinely believe it to be a mountain environment have not been subjected to ridicule or abuse. Let's hope it stays that way.

In reply to GrahamD:


I find that comment a bit sniffy. Far more intrusive and suburban are the masses of inconsiderately 'parked' cars along the A5.

Is it a mountain environment? Well you can try and objectify that by reference to altitude, topography, land use etc. Or you can weave your sense of how much of a mountain person you feel yourself to be into your rating by emphasising the hazardous aspects of the environment. This can be a neat self deception practiced by 'experienced mountain lovers' putting it minimal effort to access Cwm Idwal, and provides opportunity to decry folk who wander about there in e.g. jeans and T shirts- and yet the farmer here wears such clothing. Erosion apart, what someone wears doesn't change the environment. Cwm Idwal is Cwm Idwal, and will be, long after we have all disappeared.

People will carry their own preconceptions with them onto the hills, and so their perception of mountain environment is not so readily standardised. Their perceptions may be commonly held, but are largely subjective. On the most popular approach route, there isn't really a period of aclimatisation - walk up to the Llyn in 15 minutes, and even though now out of sight of the car, probably the backnote scent of car air freshener still sits in the nostrils. And a significant number of such walkers will be individuals out with their serious mountain goers paraphenalia. The good weather brings them out, as does the snow- as long as conditions on the road are relatively benign. That they tend to be concerned for themselves is borne out by their 'separation anxiety' parking. By such means, they're then caught in the bind then of looking to engage with a mountain environment, but having put minimal effort in, the experience is superficial.

Something 'better' is needed. Cwm Idwal isn't mountain enough. Time to book a trip to Everest base Camp, perhaps?

In reply to llechwedd:


Far from being sniffy. I find the need to classify somewhere as 'country park' OR 'mountain environment' as ridiculous. Cwm Idwal clearly has elements of both (ie easy parking, paths and coffee shop at the bottom but easy access to challenging mountain terrain).

What I find a bit naff is people trying to make out Cwm Idwal is some sort of a wilderness, only the preserve of 'real' mountaineers in their over priced designer anoraks.

In reply to GrahamD:

My thinking on this topic is that Cwm Idwal is a mountain environment that has been brought near to country park status by the well-paved track from Ogwen Cottage, and the wide paved area at the lake outflow. I can understand why the path was built; to counter significant path erosion, and also understand, while quietly lamenting, the Snowdonia National Park Authority's desire to increase visitor numbers to Snowdonia. But people have the right to visit Cwm Idwal - of course - and so they do, like I do.

The well-built track has helped turn Cwm Idwal into a visitor honey pot. There will be a risk that the easy-looking paved trail means visiting parties go into the Cwm and are caught out by a weather shift. That's their personal responsibility and stuff happens.

One advantage, to me, of Cwm Idwal being so popular is that other cwms, like Cwm Tryfan, are not.

In reply to GrahamD:


What's in a name? 'Country park'...Hmm , what image does that conjure up? ...and what about 'Coffee shop'?
I would interpret the use of 'Coffee shop' as a subtle marking of the service as urban familiar either a perjorative, or as a comfort to the namer.
I've always thought of the structure and its' predecessor as a snack bar/tea shack. Most people who live here do as well. I don't see that as at all 'Country park' . From the early 20th century, in a primitive form, the roadside shack served passing motorists and walkers and climbers. Before the Telford road, it was a natural journey break. Restrictive planning policies within the national park have kept buildings to a minimum. Hundreds of thousands visit Cwm Idwal every year and leave without contributing anything at all. The upgraded snack bar sits within a well designed purposeful building to manage visitor pressures and needs. It makes a little money.


I don't think this is the root of it. I think it's more the projection of such 'real' mountaineers unease -that they have driven all the way there, and barely exerted their overequipped selves in their short bimble away from their vehicle- onto the outgroup, i.e. the folk not like them.
People with disabilities might view Cwm Idwal a challenging environment. Not just the congenitally disabled, but folk who have been permanently and significantly disabled by e.g a climbing accident, or who are still going in late age having led a full and active life. See a wander through Cwm Idwal through the eyes of 'the other', and you soon realise that each of us carry a lot of internalised baggage onto the hills. Cwm Idwal has nothing to say on the matter.

In reply to llechwedd:

I thought a Country Park was a park that had been completely landscaped and had minimal 'really natural' features.

Man made lakes, planted forests, etc.

I don't think putting down a path is really enough.

I have taken my wife up to the lake and sat on the grass for a picnic. I've also climbed on Idwal and walked up Devils Kitchen.

Completely different activities in the same area. I don't think classifying it as either would change anything.

In reply to llechwedd:

What's in a name indeed. You clearly think 'country park' and 'coffee shop' carries with it unfortunate connotations. personally I don't care. 'country park' to me just means a piece of country made more accessible to more people - which the bottom of Cwm Idwal up to and round the lake clearly is.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:


Cwm Idwal has been popular with botanists for many years; it's been recognised as one of few locations where the Snowdon lily can be found and, I think, the only place where the Snowdonia hawkweed can be found. This, along with the geological features, is behind the area being an SSSI.

T.