UKH

Sorry, yet another what winter softshell thread!
I currently use a hybrid hoodie (simond hybrid hoodie) for winter climbing with a Paramo Enduro windproof as shell.
I also carry a hardshell too in case it gets really nasty. This combination is light, flexible and gives me a wide comfort zone.
I tend to chuck a heavy base layer underneath for winter toastyness.
I keep being drawn to winter softshells such as the Montane Sabertooth or the ME Vulcan but do they offer any real advantage for the additional weight?
With the proliferation of hybrid windproof mid layers has the heavy softshell had its day? The Simond / Paramo combo is similar weight to a Vulcan and I can always bang an extra primaloft top in my pack for less weight than the winter softshell / mid layer fleece combo.
Am I missing something?
I get that they will be harder wearing but do they offer more weather protection?

In reply to angry pirate:

You've got more costumes than Mr Feckin Ben! Use a Buffalo!

In reply to Dave the Rave:

I was a buffalo boy for a good few years but found it too warm. Plus they don't look so good wandering round the supermarket
I migrated onto Paramo but have been dragged back to conventional layers by a combination of my sheep like mentality and successful marketing by the outdoors companies. That and I spend a good chunk of time on the hill fairly inactive waiting for groups so kept getting soggy in anything but Goretex.

In reply to Dave the Rave:


This

In reply to angry pirate:

Personally use softshell more for the walk in or hillwalking but as soon as the climbing gear comes out the hardshell goes on.

In reply to angry pirate:

Only trends and fashions become 'obsolete'.

Waterproof is waterproof. It either is or it isn't. I don't know how heavy is heavy. I just wear stuff that keeps me warm. I don't care about trends.

So just wear what you feel comfortable in. regarding hardwearing. Easy. Buy something with a thin delicate shell, and it will soon wear or tear. Buy something with a thicker shell and it will last longer.

In reply to angry pirate:

Depending on how you define softshell, I've stopped wearing it almost entirely - apart from a windproof for running.

I've ended up wearing a single hooded synthetic layer on top of a base layer, and that does the job of the 2 layers I used to wear (a fleece and softshell) there.

In winter that layer for me is a Rab Strata (although going to get a Patagonia Nano Air soon), and in summer it's a Vapour Rise, and that does me for 90% of usage, with putting on a light waterproof shell when it's wet and/or a light synthetic belay jacket for static warmth.

In reply to angry pirate:

You're already wearing a softshell, the Enduro? Why are you drawn to the heavy softshells?

In reply to JayPee630:


Your Nano Air won't last long thrutching up chimneys.......

In reply to JayPee630:

Vapour rise is softshell in original form.

In reply to nathan79:

Yeah, that's why I was unsure about what exactly he meant by 'softshell'. Anyway, I was taking it to mean the membrane and non-membrane tops that are marketed as softshell that he mentioned, and not really including buffalo/vapour rise/etc type things. Although I know they are really softshells too!

In reply to galpinos:

Don't climb hard enough to thrutch up any chimneys!

In reply to JayPee630:

It's a mind-boggling minefield.

In reply to galpinos:


I've climbed grit in one of my Nano Airs (I save the other one for winter) once a week for two summer seasons. No tears so far.

In reply to BnB:

Really! Mine feels so fragile. Might give it a grit outing then.

If I put I hole in it, I'll send you the bill......

In reply to angry pirate:

Still wear Buffalo Big Face Shirt a lot. The 2 long side zips mean it can be made quite cool so very versatile covering a range of conditions without the need to change layers much. Generally use a cheap baselayer to avoid jacket needing frequent washes, and can take off jacket if really hot. However rough chimneys etc can rip it badly and find it insufficient by itself in heavy downpours.
In winter/Alps wear Buffalo HA Salopettes, which provide increased warmth for lower abdomen. Can wear them in quite hot conditions with the full length zips completely undone so no warm air is trapped.
However because of Buffalo versatility and my own meanness I haven't tried other more modern systems which I'm sure do have many advantages.

In reply to angry pirate:

I've never been sure what a softshell is so can't really comment. As far as I can tell, it seems to mean anything that isn't a base layer or a waterproof so on that basis it isn't obsolete - although I can see the term become obsolete as marketing decide a rebrand is in order.

In reply to galpinos:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've always either used a waterproof jacket in rain with a pertex windproof for almost everything else except a long detour via buffalo. So Ive been sold on non membrane softshells way before they were called such.
I think if the enduro as a heavy windproof rather than a softshell though I suppose that is what it is. It has survived grit on numerous occasions, has been superbly windproof and breathable for winter walking this year and was spectacular for climbing in Rjukan last week.
Having not ventured as far as Scotland this winter I half wonder whether it would be warm enough (I'm used to a Paramo waterproof which had a snuggly liner)
Membrane softshells look and feel warmer in the shop but I suspect that I'm just being sucked in by marketing.

In reply to angry pirate:
I don't know if I'm counting my pennies, if I'm out of touch with gear, or something else, but I can hear my Dad saying 'The right gear to wear in winter is what kept you comfortable and alive last time you were out'.

He's been known to expound in exasperation at my gear buying ways...

In reply to Timmd:


One generation always struggles to understand the next, eh?

In reply to BnB:

To be fair I take after him a lot, and we think surprisingly alike about 99% of things, he just has a talent for expounding in exasperation on occasion.

In reply to angry pirate:

The best use I've found for soft shell jackets is for those cool ish cragging days where you want the wind proofing and there's potential for a shower or two. My old Rab Cioch jacket was great for days in the peak district and as tough as hell showing no signs of grit damage. I'm not sure I'd bother with one for winter climbing as it's rather heavy and I normally take a shell and a belay jacket so a heavy softshell is a bit neither here nor there.

In reply to BnB:
Now he's retired it's me who wonders at his gear buying ways ('He'll never use that...').