The search is over. Are you listening Rab?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 BnB 24 Feb 2017
After extensive testing I've settled on the best winter climbing baselayer of all (for now, for me). No, it's not the Brynje mesh, although that is really good, but it has the problem of being impossible to wear on warm/brisk walk-ins without something over the top.

It's a Rab AL https://rab.equipment/uk/al-pull-on with the sleeves cut to tee shirt size, hems finished with a sewing machine. Worn under a Nano Air midlayer and shell. I wore this combination on Wednesday for a verglassed Tower Ridge in fierce wind and spindrift. Despite completing the route in 4 hours, not once did I overheat, nor, even in those extreme conditions, did I once reach for the belay jacket, despite a number of pitched sections. Obviously this was a fast-moving day, but yesterday I climbed more leisurely in relentless snow on East Buttress of Beinn Eighe and can report the same balance of comfort across all circumstances.

Just the right weight as a base layer, that is to say warm, but not as overwhelmingly warm as an R1, incredibly fast wicking thanks to the Polartec® Grid® fabric, good for several days use thanks to Polygiene®, and with a much longer back length than the pull-out-of-your-pants Brynje mesh.

So Rab, if you're listening, how about a short-sleeved version of this top?
In reply to BnB:

I want sleeves to keep my forearms and wrists warm to help stave off Raynaud's. So I'll be sticking with my MEC T3 hoodies.

Now on clearance at CD52... = £31.5 (carriage and duty are the killers, though...)

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5026-604/T3-Hoodie
OP BnB 24 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

I get that a Reynaud's sufferer will experience winter very differently from a quick to overheat fellow like me. But how many sleeves do you need? With both a hardshell and puffy insulation midlayer, two is surely plenty?
In reply to BnB:

> I get that a Reynaud's sufferer will experience winter very differently from a quick to overheat fellow like me.

You have answered your own question. Close-fitting forearm/wrist protection is helpful. Trust me, short sleeve Ts don't cut in in anything other than summer.

Full-length base layers also delay mankiness in puffy midlayer...
 Mr Lopez 24 Feb 2017
In reply to BnB:

> warm, but not as overwhelmingly warm as an R1, incredibly fast wicking thanks to the Polartec® Grid® fabric,

Uh? Patagonia's R1 fabric (obviously used on the R1) is actually polartec power grid, which also comes from the mill with that polygiene as standard.

The fabrics in the AL and R1 are one and the same
Post edited at 16:49
1
OP BnB 24 Feb 2017
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Yes but the R1 is constructed of a thicker, warmer version of the same fabric. Too warm to wear under a synthetic fill midlayer AND hardshell in my experience.
 Mr Lopez 24 Feb 2017
In reply to BnB:

Are there different weights of it? Pretty sure it's made in only one weight. Maybe that's the 'sell by the roll' production and Rab got some specially made?
 nufkin 24 Feb 2017
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Are there different weights of it? Pretty sure it's made in only one weight. Maybe that's the 'sell by the roll' production and Rab got some specially made?

Polartec (Malden Mills?) do - or at least did - seem to make oodles of different types of their various fleece fabrics. I can't tell what Rab use since the website doesn't seem to work on my Mac, but Patagonia say they use the '6.3oz* Powergrid'.

All that is by the by, of course - proper winter types would wear it in a vest version



*per sq. yard, presumably. Even on their Euro website. Luddites
 Martin W 24 Feb 2017
In reply to nufkin:

Rab's web site doesn't say what weight of Powergrid is used for the AL. It does say that the size large weighs 195g, which is near enough 8oz. How much fabric do you think is in a size large AL? I'd be surprised if it wasn't pretty close to a square yard. Then you have to allow for the weight of the zip - and the hems if you want to be really fussy.

If the fabric in the AL is heavier then my off the top of my head calculations would suggest to me that it's only by a few %.
OP BnB 24 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

I simply can't wear long sleeves under a puffy and then work up a sweat. My arms would turn beetroot. Funny how we can be so different.
OP BnB 24 Feb 2017
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Are there different weights of it? Pretty sure it's made in only one weight.

My R1 and AL are certainly different weights, as is the ME Eclipse (microgrid but not Polartec). Perhaps they were built in different production years from the "same" fabric. In colder conditions a heavier wieght baselayer might be beneficial but I'd be wary of boiling on the walk-in.

 Joak 24 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Trust me, short sleeve Ts don't cut in in anything other than summer.Full-length base layers also delay mankiness in puffy midlayer...

Long sleeves all year round for me. Warmth in winter. In summer I just push them up past my elbow if it's warm, pull them down if it gets chilly....or when the midges appear.
 TobyA 24 Feb 2017
In reply to Mr Lopez:

I've got an R1 pullover from maybe about 10 years ago now (still works great and looks as new despite being that old and very well used), but its definitely a bit thicker than the MEC hoodie I have from maybe 6 years ago (as mentioned by the Captain above) and the Marmot one I just reviewed for UKC which is most definitely Power Grid. But I don't know if the Patagonia R1 has got thinner since I bought mine way back when.
 TobyA 24 Feb 2017
In reply to BnB:

Tis odd because I think of myself as someone who warms up very quickly when walking uphill but can't say I've ever noticed my forearms being too warm. I just soak my back if I've got too much on.
 Mr Lopez 24 Feb 2017

Interesting. When i was looking at buying some power-grid the 'official' Polartec resaler for non-maufacturers only had one weight/version of power-grid. There's tons of other polartec 'grid style' fabrics under different names, and a few of those are offered in different weaves with different facings, and with different sized grids under the same name, i think power-dry was one of them? But both the AL and R1 are advertised as 'grid' so there must be different versions of it that are exclusive to the manufacturing market.
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Are there different weights of it?

Most certainly.

The R1 is a thick '100 weight' fabric. At least, my Pullover is.
The MEC T3 hoodie is almost gossamer-thin.

http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-r1-regulator-fleece-hoody/40074.html
6.3-oz Polartec® Power Grid™ 93% recycled polyester/7% spandex with Polygiene® permanent odor control
Weight 364 g (12.85 oz)

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5026-604/T3-Hoodie
Weight 206g (Small)
Fabric weight 138gsm (4oz/sqyd)
Fabric content 50% polyester 42% recycled polyester 8% spandex
 Rick Graham 24 Feb 2017
In reply to BnB:
> I simply can't wear long sleeves under a puffy and then work up a sweat. My arms would turn beetroot. Funny how we can be so different.

I am with you on this one.

Have some thermals with cut down arms but zip neck, never seen that combo for sale.

Cut pockets off some garments , do you really need one on every layer?

Also cut neck collars off waistcoats etc.

Rarely bother with hemming cut edges, it can reduce the stretch and the materials rarely run, also CBA

Edit. the best mod was getting a few more years out of an Ice Warrior Pertex Pile jacket, resurrecting it from gardening duties. Left the wind proofing on the hood, cut the sleeves down to just above elbow, took the pertex off the body and what was left of the arms.
Affectionately dubbed the " tramp coat", it was brilliant for cold weather climbing.
Sadly left on a stance on the Rouse/Carrington on the Perillons, assuming an abseil descent when an over the top decision was made. Anybody got it? Lucky fellow.
Post edited at 20:03
In reply to BnB:

+1 on the nano air. Great piece of kit. Vents heat and moisture so well it even keeps itself dry in short showers if you're mid ascent. Still need a puffy for belays though I find.
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Have some thermals with cut down arms but zip neck, never seen that combo for sale.

Mammut did some Power Grid Ts a couple of years ago; I saw the women's version in TKM. The Cotoleft Zip T-shirt
OP BnB 24 Feb 2017
In reply to jonny.greenwood:

> +1 on the nano air. Great piece of kit. Vents heat and moisture so well it even keeps itself dry in short showers if you're mid ascent. Still need a puffy for belays though I find.

Yes, its brilliant kit, isn't it? A belay jacket certainly helps for long waits but, wearing the combination in the OP, I've only needed it one day this past week. That was in a breezy Sneachda belaying for hours.
 Rick Graham 24 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Mammut did some Power Grid Ts a couple of years ago; I saw the women's version in TKM. The Cotoleft Zip T-shirt

But I have been comfortable for the last 30 years or more!

Can you buy men's hooded gilets ? or get men's trousers without fifty pockets?
 Dave the Rave 24 Feb 2017
In reply to Joak:
> Long sleeves all year round for me. Warmth in winter. In summer I just push them up past my elbow if it's warm, pull them down if it gets chilly....or when the midges appear.

That sounds too much like common sense to me bud. It will never catch on
Post edited at 20:17
 Mr Lopez 24 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

I mean fabric branded polartec grid, rather than grid fleece in general
In reply to Mr Lopez:

The R1 and MEC T3 are both Polartec PowerGrid fabrics.
 Mr Lopez 24 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

The MEC T3 is advertised as power-dry? Could be they changed it though https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5026-604/T3-Hoodie
In reply to Mr Lopez:

They have it incorrectly labelled. Take a look at the version without the hood.

I have four of them, bought last year. And I have an R1 pullover.

The Polartec shop only carries a small range of the range available to manufacturers.
 Mr Lopez 25 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

I think not even polartec can work out the branding...

The MEC fabric is (from the shop's page) 50% polyester, 42% recycled polyester, 8% spandex, the only one i find that matches from the retailer is this, which is powerdry http://www.milldirecttextiles.com/fullroll_results2.asp?style=90016

When looking through the catalogue, in their yardage page they got a powergrid branded fabric, which is also powerdry, and matches Patagonia's 93% Polyester, 7% Spandex with recycled polyester http://www.millyardage.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=9026

I didn't order the fabric at the end when i had looked into it, but from that I had assumed powergrid was one specific type of powerdry. In the 'by the roll' shop there's no mention of powergrid on it though http://www.milldirecttextiles.com/fullroll_results.asp?action=find&id=1...


In reply to Mr Lopez:

Well, I just went to check the labels on the T3s. And they say 'PowerDry'...

In which case I don't know what 'Power Grid' is..

I've got the R1 and T3 in front of me now. They both have a waffle grid inner face. The gaps in the R1 grid are smaller than the T3. The grid spacing appears the same on both. I'd suggest the outer face is a little thicker on the R1. They both say 93% polyester, 7% spandex. The R1 is certainly thicker, heavier and warmer than the T3.

I suspect strongly that PowerGrid is a new brand name for a variant of PowerDry. Like you do. And that it's a confused state of use...

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5026-602/T3-Zip-T

They both have labels nside that say 'PowerDry'...

Whatever the fabric it's made of is called, the T3 hoodie is brilliant.
 ben b 25 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

Mrs B has a pair of Powerstretch wrist warmers (which are black, so don't look to 80s). She's found them great for keeping the, erm, wrists warm - which is where the arteries supplying blood to the fingers are closest to the skin and most liable to cold-related vasospasm. Often an area that gets cooler due to cuff/glove gaps etc. I think they were made by Houdini (?Swedish brand) but presumably not impossible to find outside Scandinavia - might be worth a try if Raynaud's an issue.

Cheers
b
OP BnB 25 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia & Mr Lopez:

Good to see my OP has prompted such a detailed discussion of different fabric weights of Powergrid/Powerdry etc. But does anyone make a short-sleeved tee in it? I know Mammut used to but can't find it now.
 ianstevens 27 Feb 2017
In reply to BnB:

> So Rab, if you're listening, how about a short-sleeved version of this top?

http://rab.equipment/uk/support/contact-us
 galpinos 27 Feb 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

http://www.millyardage.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1833

Power Grid seems to be subset of Power Dry, and is available if two different grid patterns (9110 and 9026).

I've an old R1 and it is a LOT thicker than an ME Eclipse (mine is a Pontetorto Technostretch but they are now a grid Polartec Powerdry).
 galpinos 27 Feb 2017
In reply to BnB:

Which Nano Air, the new light or the original?
OP BnB 27 Feb 2017
In reply to galpinos:

The original.

Powergrid/Powerdry Teeshirt
Nano Air
Neoshell Hardshell (a Rab special order for GO which they knocked out for £100 a piece)

It's a fantastically warm yet breathable threesome that meant no sweat and only rarely a belay jacket over three days last week on Ben/Cairngorms/NW.
OP BnB 27 Feb 2017
In reply to iksander:

Awesome thanks.
 JayPee630 27 Feb 2017
In reply to BnB:

I've got a Patagonia thermal weight capilene hooded top that's powergrid and perfect winter baselayer too. Wear a Rab Strata over the top, but will upgrade to a Nanoair for next winter.
In reply to BnB:
Have you tried any tops made with polartec alpha? Currently trying out the Rab Alpha flux (lighter model of the existing Alpha Direct) paired with a brynje top and it's been amazing at venting whilst keeping me warm and dry. It could actually also be simply be used straight onto the skin as a baselayer.
Post edited at 17:40
OP BnB 27 Feb 2017
In reply to Succinctgearreviews:

> Have you tried any tops made with polartec alpha? Currently trying out the Rab Alpha flux (lighter model of the existing Alpha Direct) paired with a brynje top and it's been amazing at venting whilst keeping me warm and dry. It could actually also be simply be used straight onto the skin as a baselayer.

Yes, I've got a Rab Strata that I wear for the pub and dog walks. It's a good throw on item. I prefer the Nano Air however as it works so well under a hardshell when you need it to and creates the right climate (for me) on dry, brisk walk-ins over a tee shirt. Perhaps your Flux hits the same sweet spot?

OP BnB 27 Feb 2017
In reply to JayPee630:

> I've got a Patagonia thermal weight capilene hooded top that's powergrid and perfect winter baselayer too. Wear a Rab Strata over the top, but will upgrade to a Nanoair for next winter.

That's a similar fabric weight to the Rab AL. Only 10% lighter than the RAB piece, where the classic R1 is 70% heavier. Try cutting the sleeves off!!
In reply to BnB:

Wearing the T3 with a silnylon wind shirt today (and last year's Forclaz 500W trousers) walking from Badaguish. Got a bit sweaty on the climb up to the ridge, but, thereafter, temperature regulation done just with base layer and windshell hoods, despite stops, including lunch. Bone dry when I got down.
OP BnB 01 Mar 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:


> Wearing the T3 with a silnylon wind shirt today (and last year's Forclaz 500W trousers) walking from Badaguish. Got a bit sweaty on the climb up to the ridge, but, thereafter, temperature regulation done just with base layer and windshell hoods, despite stops, including lunch. Bone dry when I got down.

How many stops of between 30-60 minutes while your partner fiddled in gear on his pitches? Or was this a fast-moving ridge route, as sounds likely? The OP is about winter climbing.
OP BnB 01 Mar 2017
In reply to ianstevens:


I dropped them a line and received a personalised reply within 24 hours. Maybe they'll run it past the design team.
 JayPee630 01 Mar 2017
In reply to BnB:

Have you tried anything with the new Gore Thermium material yet? I got the new ME Prophet as a belay jacket this year and are pretty impressed with it. Light, warm, and very weatherproof. Can get by with a baselayer (hooded/long sleeves ), breathable synthetic, light waterproof, then that if needed even in the worst conditions.
OP BnB 01 Mar 2017
In reply to JayPee630:

> Have you tried anything with the new Gore Thermium material yet? I got the new ME Prophet as a belay jacket this year and are pretty impressed with it. Light, warm, and very weatherproof. Can get by with a baselayer (hooded/long sleeves ), breathable synthetic, light waterproof, then that if needed even in the worst conditions.

Another belay jacket and my wife's exasperation will hit deafening levels.
In reply to BnB:

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to claim that was a perfect system for winter climbing (I'd intended to say it was just a walk). It was also a sunny, warm day. Certainly not a sensible setup for winter climbing. I had a pack full of other layers...

More a comment about how well the T3 worked.
OP BnB 01 Mar 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Oh, no, I wasn't trying to claim that was a perfect system for winter climbing (I'd intended to say it was just a walk). It was also a sunny, warm day. Certainly not a sensible setup for winter climbing. I had a pack full of other layers...More a comment about how well the T3 worked.


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...