UKH

Any more names? What do you call yours, and what's the difference?

Mine's a rucksack, sometimes a sack or a pack.

In reply to Trangia:

I know someone who calls his a backsack

In reply to Trangia:

Ex-military types tend to call them Bergens.

Al

In reply to Trangia:

Back sack and crack

In reply to Trangia:

a haversack

In reply to Trangia:

I say rucksack or backpack, but they all mean the same thing although they have different ages and roots.

Knapsack is German in origin and dates to 1600.
Haversack is French in origin and dates to 1735.
Rucksack is alpine German in origin and dates to 1866.
Backpack is English in origin and dates to WWI.
Bergen is English/German in origin and dates to WWII.

In reply to GridNorth:



Fine for the military, but I always think that sounds so crass in a civilian context

In reply to Trangia:


I once worked with an ex squaddie at PyB and he insisted on saying Bergens. I called them sacs or rucsacs. This infuriated him to the point that one day he fixed me with one of those one-more-word-and-you're-dead stares and said flatly 'They're Bergens, Jon'. And Bergens they were, after that...

In reply to simonharpham:

You know too much..

In reply to Trangia:


I never realised that people used that term - ooh, that sounds so crass!

ooh, you are awful!

In reply to Flinticus:

Nah, I just use etymonline.com.

In reply to simonharpham:

I always thought Bergens were named after a Norwegian called Bergen but I bow to your superior knowledge.

Al

In reply to Trangia:
For my reply I sought advice from Max Bygraves, that great expert on all things outdoor, and found that he endorses the use of knapsack. Altogether now - singalongamax:

I love to go a-wandering,
Along the mountain track,
And as I go, I love to sing,
My knapsack on my back.
Chorus:
Val-deri,Val-dera,
Val-deri,
Val-dera-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
Val-deri,Val-dera.
My knapsack on my back

But seriously, in Britain, unless army (about which more earlier) it has to be rucksack, or more often spoken as simply "sack", surely? Backpack is far too American and knapsack and haversack are archaic, no?

In reply to subtle:


I think it's a good word to try and convey what I was trying to get across. Can you think of a better word to describe the behaviour of someone who is actually not ex military at all, but wants other people to think they are by casually dropping military terms into their speech? You must have come across these slightly sad individuals?

In reply to simonharpham:







Wow! I'm impressed by your historical knowledge, and date precision.

Looking at Rucksack. How should it be pronounced? Many people say Ruck as in the Rugby "ruck", but if it's of German origin should it not be "rook" as in the bird?

Looking at Bergen - isn't that Norwegian rather than German?

In reply to simonharpham:

I always thought a haversack was something different, one strap a bit like a satchel ?

In reply to GrahamD:
I think you can only refer to it as a haversack or knapsack if you are one of the Famous Five or Secret Seven.

In reply to Trangia:

We used to refer to my Grandads as his 'heavysack'

In reply to Trangia:

Rucksack, or just bag. Never "pack", it sounds too much of an Americanism.

In reply to Trangia:
It's more "rueckzak" than "rook", as there's an umlaut on the U in "Ruecksack", which, as I have done there, you substitute with "ue" if you can't / can't be bothered to type it.

In reply to Neil Williams:



Is it American? The British Army called it their "pack" in the Great War, see the penultimate line of Sassoon's poem:-

The General
BY SIEGFRIED SASSOON
“Good-morning, good-morning!” the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
“He's a cheery old card,” grunted Harry to Jack
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack.

But he did for them both by his plan of attack.

In reply to Trangia:
I was told (by a guide in the Blue John Cave as I recall) that knapsack is an old mining term for such a bag, referring to the act of 'knapping' a rock.

In reply to Trangia:

A lot of Americanisms are actually olde Englisheisms that we evolved away from but they didn't. Stuff like "ize" is as well.

In reply to GridNorth:




Right on Al. Though I think it was Bergans rather than Bergen. I even had a "Bergans of Norway" labelled canvas sack when I started climbing in 1965, inherited from me Dad who'd had it since World War II. It was the classic triangular framed job, widest at the bottom.

Imagine me then, with that and me Dad's Black's ventile anorak and Munari of Cornuda Italian leather boots, cutting a dash around the Lancs quarries and Yorkshire limestone crags we started on.

In reply to Trangia:

I was in el Chorro many years ago on a big route and two hardcore guys caught us up and we briefly shared a stance for a water break before they sped off. We'd made a little water bottle backpack by clove hitching a sling to the top of the bottle leaving two loops for the arms and when they saw it one of the guys said in a strong accent "I like your backside"! So that's what I call mine....

In reply to GridNorth:

No, I think you're right ... I got the thing about Bergens from the WIKI article on rucksacks ...

"In fact, Britons used to call Alpine-style backpacks "Bergen rucksacks", maybe from the name of their creator, Norwegian Ole F. Bergan, combined with the name of the Norwegian city of Bergen.[citation needed]"


Besides I don't actually know anything, I just regurgitate stuff I read elsewhere

In reply to Trangia:

The Pattern '08 webbing contained both a Haversack and a Pack. My etymological dictionary gives Haversack as coming from the German Hafersack being an Oats bag. 'Pack' originates in Flanders/Netherlands/ North Germany and originally refers to a bundle -of wool.

In reply to Tom Last:

Indirectly yes, apparently they both come from the German 'Knappen' which is the source word for knap as in to strike flint, and also means 'crack' 'snap' 'quick sudden bite' and refers to preprepared broken up pieces of food carried for utensil and preparation free eating, something to consider when travelling. So a knapsack is a bag for chunks of ready to eat food, the sort of thing you would 'snap up'.
Scnapps also comes from this, something you drink quickly/suddenly
I suspect that the Sheffielders use of the word 'snap' for food stems from this too.

In reply to simonharpham:


Isn't that what every body does?

Al

In reply to Martin Bennett:

I'm sure you were kitted out like that when we went to Morocco !

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Nah. Some of us just make it up.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Good knowledge and interesting stuff, cheers.

In reply to Trangia:

Cragsack.

In reply to Trangia:
Dora the Explorer has a backpack. So, as a result what were once backpacks in Chateau Radar are now very definitely rucsacs. (I've always had rucsacs, or sacs). Grandad Radar (my dad) talked of knapsacks and haversacks. Radarling #2 has a Bergen cos he is in army cadets and is all camo and ready to kill bad guys. He gets very upset if I call his bag a rucsac.

In reply to Trangia:


Daysack

In reply to radar:

I love this obsession from military types with calling a rucksack a Bergen, its kind of like Spinal tap,

"This is my Bergen, it goes to 11"
"But its a rucksack"
"No its a Bergen"
"What makes it different from a Rucksack?"
"Its.... a Bergen"

In reply to DerwentDiluted:
I would say it's fair enough to call a pack a Bergan or a Bergen (I have looked this up, it's a known and accepted variant on the word) if it has "Bergan" written on it but to call an Arcteryx rucksack a Bergan is just perverse.

Al

In reply to Trangia:

I've always used a rucksack but as a concession to modernity I now spell it rucsac. Unfortunately nobody notices.

In reply to Trangia:
I always say Sack.
Though I'm not sure if it's spelt Sack or Sac.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Or cares

Al

In reply to The New NickB:

Sadly I googled 'haversack' after that and it does appear to be a different beast to a 'rucksack'. Single strap rather than double. Definately out of Swallows and Amazons though.

In reply to GridNorth:


A rucksack is a rucksack. A Bergan is a huge rucksack. Over 100L. With a top flap. Made of tough old school materials that won't break when you stand on it to get more shite in.
Always weighs twice as much when it's wet.

In reply to Fredt:
If it comes from the German it's Rücksack, which literally translates as "back bag" or "back sack".

"Rucsac" sounds a bit 1980s/1990s for some reason.

In reply to Bootrock:
surely its just a rucksack from the Norwegian company called Bergans?

But have you looked at their current range ? (https://www.bergans.com/catalog/backpacks? ) - nothing like the heavy canvas & metal framed things beloved of Scout leaders back in my childhood, they even have 'lady' models! (https://www.bergans.com/catalog/backpacks/daypacks/Istinden-26-L-Lady)

(edited to correct spelling)

In reply to Trangia:

Ha! It's not my knowledge - I'm just handy with a search engine ... I expect those dates are earliest occurrences in print and the words probably occurred earlier in spoken language. And yeah Bergen would be Norwegian ... I misread the WIKI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpack)

In reply to GrahamD:

From the looks of it that would be the original meaning (a small cloth bag on a strap worn over one shoulder to carry havercakes or oatcakes), but in current English usage it's a synonym for backpack.

In reply to simonharpham:


And lashings of ginger beer!

In reply to simonharpham:

It may be common but not universal. My father and grandfather always made a distinction between a rucksack and a haversack. Especially important because at the time it was cool to have a khaki canvas rucksack from the army and navy (preferably with added 'designer' frayed bits and covered in felt tip band logos) but an otherwise equivalent khaki haversack was naff and basically a satchel.

In reply to Trangia:

Weren't the original knapsacks gas mask bags?

Al

In reply to Neil Williams:
Firstly, you're wrong: "Rucksack" does not have any umlauts - at least not according to any of my German or English/German dictionaries or Google. (Excluding my monstrous yellow hardcover one, which is currently 20km away, at home.)

Seccondly, the "ue" spelling is an unhelpful substitution for "ü" in my experience because it suggests a sliding vowel sound from "u" to "e" to the English reader who has never had a German lesson. This sort of sliding vowel sound may be common in english but is almost never found in German. (I know it is the technically correct substitution, I still find it unhelpful.)

In reply to GrahamD:
I think you are right. In the days of 37 pattern webbing on school field days "Haversack" rations were issued which were carried in a small pack with a single strap. I'm sure John Peel would have known the difference, with his references to "adjusting your webbing".

I thought Bergan came in to distinguish the brand of scandinavian style rucsack issued to Commandos etc in WWII which had that brand name from the normal webbing horror pack


perhaps they got them from Black's - That Bergan style was sold in outdoor shops well into the 70s - I had one before I knew better things existed. Triangular metal frame with leather straps and a kidney banging strap across the lower back.

In reply to GrahamD:

The ex wwII haversack was often used as a"bait bag" by men going to work when I was growing up - don't know when that died out.

In reply to Doug:

I meant when used as a military term.

In reply to GridNorth:

I suspect that they were named after something from the Skiing firm that still exists, but were mistakenly called Bergen after the place almost everyone had heard of and associated with Norway.

In reply to Trangia:
Found it, the Bergen is the Pattern '42 Bergen Rucksack made for special forces use based on a design by Bergans, a Norwegian manufacturer.

British WWII Era Commando P42 Bergen Rucksack ima-usa.com
http://www.ima-usa.com/british-wwii-era-commando-p42-bergen-rucksack.html

So, its a rucksack type made for military use and the term Berge/an is a brand name. Continued use of the term Bergen by the military is now a colloquialism.

In reply to Trangia:

Bergans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergans?wprov=sfla1

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

the external frame was patented by Oetzi's people long before!

In reply to Trangia:

OK, We have a haversack for my ramble, A rucksack for my hike, a Bergan for my yomp.

What do I take on a walk?

In reply to Fredt:



A pork pie.

In reply to Xharlie:

So it hasn't, which is odd considering that Rücken is back. Ruck (without the umlaut) actually translates as "jerk" - not the insult, but as in a sharp pull. I wonder how that derivation came about?


I'm not convinced that's much of a problem, partly because someone who has never spoken any German isn't going to have much of an accent, and partly because the sound actually is represented by a kind of merged "ue" sound (but not a flowing vowel from one to the other, more both at the same time). In any case, it would hardly be appropriate to define the rules of one language (German) based on people learning it from another language (English).

In reply to Fredt:



In reply to Fredt:

The dog?

At my age, what's hanging off my shoulders doesn't weigh as much as the second sack I wear round the front. I call that one my belly. Or occasionally the cider-baby...

Day-sack if I'm out for a stroll or scrambling or cycling. Rucksack if there's more to carry. But they're both referred to as 'the sack' if they're named at all: 'Where's the lighter?' 'Lid-pocket.'

A mate at work is a retired ACE Mobile FAC and it's always a bergen to him. Just like Trangia, I can't say it myself - it sounds as pretentious coming from my civvie mouth as calling Afghanistan Afghan.

D

In reply to Fredt:


A day sack! No one's mentioned them yet.

Edit: Hold on, L defaid has!

And then there are bum bags too.

In reply to Trangia:




What, you mean fanny packs ?

In reply to Trangia:

What do people take on a fortnight's backpacking? Rucksacking? Haversacking? Bagging?

In reply to Trangia:


Ok, I concede, crass is a good option for describing that.
A better option though be to describe them as being (better not swear)

In reply to Trangia:

Tramping pack is what they're called in NZ. My crag bag (surprised nobody mentioned this one?) was actually bought as a tramping pack.

In reply to jon:


I always thought the UK military use came from the Norwegian (e.g. RM Arctic Cadre). And probably a confusion between the place, Bergen, and the manufacturer, Bergans.

Although the suggestion that the name derives from Dutch/Germanic meaning 'to store, or stash away' is pretty convincing.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bergen

In reply to Trangia:


If you're thinking of Bergen-Belsen, I'm pretty sure that's not the etymology.

Me: rucksack or daysack, depending on size.
Knapsack or haversack to me is a single, over-the-shoulder strap bag.

In reply to Trangia:

I've always called it a Pack. If it's good enough for the Stone Roses then it's good enought for me.

"The gold road's sure a long road
Winds on through the hills for fifteen days
The pack on my back is aching
The straps seem to cut me like a knife"
Fools Gold

In reply to Trangia:

Being German and all, I obviously call it a Rucksack. However, in English I say backpack. I am unsure why English maintains two words for the same thing, which seems awfully wasteful and inefficient to me

That is, unless there is a difference in meaning?

In reply to Removed UserFuchs:

backpack is american - first time I remember it being used was for the Apollo astronauts. I suppose we imported the term backpacking and then backpack itself. Was always rucksack for me and still is

In reply to Neil Williams:


From rug or rugg (or ruggi), old Schweizerdeutsch for back.

In reply to wercat:


I don't think we should trust people who hold their pants up with suspenders!

In reply to wercat:


You're right, we should strenuously resist all attempts to pollute our fine English language with words of foreign origin.

In reply to john arran:

Absolutely. Ban 'rappel' in favour of the good old english 'abseil'.

In reply to Removed UserFuchs:

Bothering about those things is much more a German thing than an English thing. We are good at being wasteful and inefficient, unlike Germany

In reply to jon:


Good old German you mean

In reply to Neil Williams:

Oh dear, Neil...

In reply to Trangia:


Mine's a carrying system (because I paid more for it).

In reply to jon:


I "rope down" just like Victorian gentlemen used to. None of this foreign nonsense for me.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You ARE a Victorian gentleman, Rob.

In reply to jon:

Looks like we need an irony indicator, Jon.

In reply to Removed UserFuchs:

I think it's possibly a region thing. Where I am they do hold different meanings; by and large you have a rucksack for going to school with and a backpack for going backpacking with.

No idea if this applies nationwide though, not something that comes up much.

In reply to Dheorl:


Surely you go to school with a school bag. Or, in my case, a 5p Tesco carrier bag.

In reply to Dheorl:


Where is this?

In reply to galpinos:

Bristol.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Sure... that's why I just said something different, because what I really meant was what you said...

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

In fact I think I always just say SACK!