UKH

Hi, this has been in the back of my mind since last season, but I keep forgetting to post.

Disclaimer: Ok, firstly, I'm aware that you're always trying to avoid going near/below/across etc. terrain that you suspect to have avalanche potential. I'm an incredibly cautious climber (read cowardly) and generally don't go anywhere where I've got any concerns over avalanches.

Background: Despite the above, sometimes you just end up having to cross small sections of suspect terrain without an alternative (getting to/from the start of a route etc). In these circumstances (having already made the decision you can't practically avoid it and that you've taken all precautions you can), my interpretation is that you should cross the slope one by one, making sure you keep the person crossing the slope in view so that if it does go, you can try and track them and help them out as best you can quicker.

Question: However, what I've been considering is whether it is a good idea to have the person crossing the slope roped up or not, and whether you'd attach them to (assuming it's there) a fixed anchor to belay or someone not crossing?

My thoughts in favour of roping up are that you might stop them from falling as far, and if it's just something small which knocks them off their feed and potentially into a slide/fall it might prevent this altogether.

My thoughts against roping up are that, if you have a solid anchor, the force of the avalanche pushing against them and the rope holding them against it might cause significant trauma. If you don't have a slid belay and they're connected to someone off-slope it might possibly injure/involve the potential rescuer in the avalanche.

If there's no definitive recommendation I guess it might come down to the context/terrain as to weather stopping a slip/fall would cause less potential damage than being pummeled by snow or not (i.e. are you on a big open slope or near a cliff/load of rocks).

In reply to Robin Woodward:

I would suggest that a suspect slope is often likely to be wider than the length of rope you may have available and that each person may want to be 100 metres apart. Therefore, being roped may be impractical and unwise as it would guarantee both or all climbers/ skiers are dragged in and noone is available to dig!

In reply to Robin Woodward:
In general the risk from being injured and tied in is often lower than the risk from not being tied in. I would generally do this if there are good rock anchors and the conditions are somewhat dubious (but should be okish) and the fallout zone is bad (ie there is a terrain trap beneath me, perhaps a narrowing where I could get buried or a cliff edge I could go over or rocks I could hit). You may find this worthwhile when crossing a gully, either when traversing along the cliff base or inside the gully when the edges seemed of reasonable risk to be unroped but the gully centre does not.

I've also done this approaching Good Friday Climb on the Ben as the final slope you traverse can be suspect and there are reasonable anchors and if the slope went you'd go an awful long way.

I would have to be more desperate to use this technique with snow anchors as I suspect they may not hold but it does depend if the risk is from a shallow surface avalanche or something deeper. I'm sure many people have been killed from only the surface layers failing when the deeper snow is solid.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Crossing gullys was the example I had in mind really (rather than open slopes where I think I'd be more likely to find a way to avoid it or change plans). In writing the question down I also had the feeling that in these type of situations it's probably better to get bashed a bit on a rope rather than bashed a lot whilst falling. Also it's likely that this will result in you swinging to the side of the gully of the belay, and therefore might take you out of the main bulks of the descending snowpack and some possible terrain shelter.

In reply to Robin Woodward:
This is the open slope approaching good friday climb its a bit steep to be a huge risk but I've seen it dodgy enough to warrant roping up for both fear of slipping and avalanche as the surface snow was poorly bonded to some depth and there are rock anchors:

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Its not just the side of the gully you could hit its also whats under it. There could be a bit drop or very long unpredictable fall out zone as you commonly see on many of the gullies on the Ben, or indeed a canyon you get buried in (as you see beneath corie na ciste or Corie na Tulaich for example). Or you just get unlucky and get buried anyway.

Once avalanched the chance of death is quite high. I'm not sure if there are realistic figures for Scotland as the type of avalanches here will differ somewhat to many other areas, especially when coupled with days / times / locations people are likely to be out.

In reply to Robin Woodward:


And you are quite right, but the point about the width of the slope is a good one.

To be hit by an avalanche on a solid belay is certainly not good, but it is far better than being hit when not on a belay. As soon as you are swept away, all bets are off.

In reply to Robin Woodward:


Obviously there's always a large degree of risk assessment going on but I'd strongly argue that you don't 'have to' in the circumstance you mention. There are two obvious alternative options of either doing a different route with a safer approach, or not climbing that day.

When crossing unexpected dodgy terrain, perhaps a long way up a route with a difficult retreat, when it's a small patch of snow I'd personally rather be on the rope.

Happy climbing,
D.

In reply to Robin Woodward:

Maybe trail a rope if there's no suitable belay? Will give a rescuer more chance of finding you.

In reply to Robin Woodward:

If you can get a solid belay in then you should take your chances with that. The trauma from tumbling down a mountainside and potentially getting buried is probably going to be much worse than if you're held by a rope.

I'd be very wary about crossing an avalanche slope while roped up to my partner though. Better to cross it one at a time, then at least you have one person who can try to rescue the other. It's also easier to stay on top of an avalanche if you're not being dragged around by someone else.

In reply to Toerag:


Indeed, I have done this on the odd occasion. The chances of the entire rope getting buried are about zero and you know your mate is tied to the end of it which makes finding them a bit easier if they get buried.

Re belaying someone. If its a big open slope chances are you wouldn't be able to hold them if it went but for short sections, say a suspect gully I'd consider belaying on a classic so you can easily let a lot of rope slip as you (hopefully) decelerate their slide.

In reply to nb:
Good advice.

Also remember the forces involved in an avalanche are huge compared to merely holding a falling climber.
Heard a tale about being caught in an avalanche on a belay, the rope melted and welded itself to the tie in loops of a Whillans harness, had to cut the harness off to get out.

Could be better to direct belay but not be connected together, all least both climbers are not down the hill if the belay is overwhelmed.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Definitely direct belay - using an Italian hitch. Much easier to stop the person progressively. Like you say the forces generated could be huge, especially if the snow is dense.

In reply to Robin Woodward:

was there not a post on here a year ago with someone being yanked out there belay while lowering their partner down a suspect part of the Goat Track?

For me Direct rock belay using an Italian, don't clip into the same belay pieces and send your mate first! certainly a good idea for crossing an unexpected suspect gully slope, on the way to your rock start on the other side.

In reply to Toerag:


Maybe also tie an empty inflated dry bag to the end of the rope?