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The Nkbv and DAV , (which is like the BMC) are trying to bring into the climbing halls the importances about using a half automatic belay device in the halls.
On the market at the moment are petzl grigri (1,2 and +), mammut smart, edelrid mega jul, jul2 en eddy, CT click-up, Camp matik, Salewa Ergo and the Trango clinch and vergo.
Some are made for just toprope climbing and others can be used for multipitch.
I myself have used a 8 or a dmm pivot (the last year).
What is your preference on an indoor/ outdoor belay device.
On the market at the moment are petzl grigri (1,2 and +), mammut smart, edelrid mega jul, jul2 en eddy, CT click-up, Camp matik, Salewa Ergo and the Trango clinch and vergo.
Some are made for just toprope climbing and others can be used for multipitch.
I myself have used a 8 or a dmm pivot (the last year).
What is your preference on an indoor/ outdoor belay device.
In reply to resqueman: Click up by a massive country mile. Its much closer to a standard tuber than any other device I've used.
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In reply to resqueman:
Why are they doing that? Do they assume that people will not be able to hold falls / lower climbers with more 'static' belay devices?
> The Nkbv and DAV , (which is like the BMC) are trying to bring into the climbing halls the importances about using a half automatic belay device in the halls.
Why are they doing that? Do they assume that people will not be able to hold falls / lower climbers with more 'static' belay devices?
In reply to Andy Say:
Its the logical next step after having used the hms knot for the last couple of centuries
To the OP, if you are german, you will find Brits perculier in their hatred for assisted belay devices. Just as we find the DAV's love for the odd too. I have an Alpine up, and although it's a little complicated, I really can say it's been the best assisted device I've tried. I've tried grigri's, both 1 and 2, mega jul, wild country SRC and Metolius BRD. It pays out smoothly, has every mode you could ever need, the magic plate is smoother than any other I've tried, the abseil as an anti panic function, you can belay dynamically with it... but it is bulky and complicated.
Its the logical next step after having used the hms knot for the last couple of centuries
To the OP, if you are german, you will find Brits perculier in their hatred for assisted belay devices. Just as we find the DAV's love for the odd too. I have an Alpine up, and although it's a little complicated, I really can say it's been the best assisted device I've tried. I've tried grigri's, both 1 and 2, mega jul, wild country SRC and Metolius BRD. It pays out smoothly, has every mode you could ever need, the magic plate is smoother than any other I've tried, the abseil as an anti panic function, you can belay dynamically with it... but it is bulky and complicated.
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In reply to resqueman:
If I am poking my nose into an area that about which I am not fully up to date please forgive me. I thought that the devices listed were Assisted Belay Devices meaning that the belayer was helped in some way to arrest a fall. Any implication that the device did the job was to be avoided. Personally I think that anything that sends out a message that the human element in belaying is in some way redundant is dangerous. To me Half Automatic implies that.
If I am poking my nose into an area that about which I am not fully up to date please forgive me. I thought that the devices listed were Assisted Belay Devices meaning that the belayer was helped in some way to arrest a fall. Any implication that the device did the job was to be avoided. Personally I think that anything that sends out a message that the human element in belaying is in some way redundant is dangerous. To me Half Automatic implies that.
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In reply to resqueman:
I still can't stop liking the mega jul despite lots of people suggesting I'm a weirdo for doing so. http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6739
I still can't stop liking the mega jul despite lots of people suggesting I'm a weirdo for doing so. http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6739
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In reply to resqueman:
The orig. (gen 1) GriGri is by far the best "automatic" belay device. Easy to use, even with fluffy topropes found from gyms. And pays out slack fantastically with modern ropes.
Sadly, rather hard to find NIB these days.
This is the one device I swear by. But only use it for indoors, and single pitch climbing... mostly.
Oh, and you forgot the Camp whatever... "automatic" belay device, which is basically about the same as GriGri 2+...
The orig. (gen 1) GriGri is by far the best "automatic" belay device. Easy to use, even with fluffy topropes found from gyms. And pays out slack fantastically with modern ropes.
Sadly, rather hard to find NIB these days.
This is the one device I swear by. But only use it for indoors, and single pitch climbing... mostly.
Oh, and you forgot the Camp whatever... "automatic" belay device, which is basically about the same as GriGri 2+...
Post edited at 05:04
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In reply to resqueman:
Not having tried them all, but I'm a big fan of the CT Click-up for single rope use.
Not having tried them all, but I'm a big fan of the CT Click-up for single rope use.
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In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
The two relevant categories under EN-15151 are "braking devices with manually assisted locking" and "manual braking devices".
The GriGri, Camp Matik, Edelrid Eddy, Trango Vergo (the Cinch replacement) and the Mad Rock Lifeguard are category 1 and all the rest category 2.
To be be in the first group it has to be demonstrate that it will stop a fall without human interference (holding the rope). The second group fail to do this.
The German-speaking countries usually use Automatic and Half-automatic to differentiate between the two which is at least more accurate than the usual English speaking confusion!
> If I am poking my nose into an area that about which I am not fully up to date please forgive me. I thought that the devices listed were Assisted Belay Devices meaning that the belayer was helped in some way to arrest a fall. Any implication that the device did the job was to be avoided. Personally I think that anything that sends out a message that the human element in belaying is in some way redundant is dangerous. To me Half Automatic implies that.
The two relevant categories under EN-15151 are "braking devices with manually assisted locking" and "manual braking devices".
The GriGri, Camp Matik, Edelrid Eddy, Trango Vergo (the Cinch replacement) and the Mad Rock Lifeguard are category 1 and all the rest category 2.
To be be in the first group it has to be demonstrate that it will stop a fall without human interference (holding the rope). The second group fail to do this.
The German-speaking countries usually use Automatic and Half-automatic to differentiate between the two which is at least more accurate than the usual English speaking confusion!
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In reply to jimtitt:
Interesting, thanks for the info. How are the first category tested? Is it just one fall scenario or do they test a range of falls and loads? Do they make any attempt to catch them out with edge cases or is the testing under fairly idealised circumstances? And what's the pass criteria? 100% success in the tests?
Interesting, thanks for the info. How are the first category tested? Is it just one fall scenario or do they test a range of falls and loads? Do they make any attempt to catch them out with edge cases or is the testing under fairly idealised circumstances? And what's the pass criteria? 100% success in the tests?
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In reply to beardy mike:
The only device I have a dislike for is the Grigri as it is counterintuitive in use to someone panicking, and this has resulted in accidents. You grab tighter on the lever, you release the rope. A design change meaning that to lower someone you would have to hold the lever in a middle position (i.e. it would lock when fully released *and* when pulled hard) would mean I'd remove any objection, though I do find it clunky and awkward for lead use.
Of the other devices I quite like the Mammut Smart, though I've not quite got round to buying one. I found the Click-up a bit clunky and awkward.
The only device I have a dislike for is the Grigri as it is counterintuitive in use to someone panicking, and this has resulted in accidents. You grab tighter on the lever, you release the rope. A design change meaning that to lower someone you would have to hold the lever in a middle position (i.e. it would lock when fully released *and* when pulled hard) would mean I'd remove any objection, though I do find it clunky and awkward for lead use.
Of the other devices I quite like the Mammut Smart, though I've not quite got round to buying one. I found the Click-up a bit clunky and awkward.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
The GriGri 2+ (and Camp Matik) both "fix" this issue the same while bulky Petzl Id't or what ever it was called. Meaning if you pull it the lever too hard, it'll stop giving slack.
> The only device I have a dislike for is the Grigri as it is counterintuitive in use to someone panicking, and this has resulted in accidents. You grab tighter on the lever, you release the rope.
The GriGri 2+ (and Camp Matik) both "fix" this issue the same while bulky Petzl Id't or what ever it was called. Meaning if you pull it the lever too hard, it'll stop giving slack.
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In reply to beardy mike:
I do recall tales of the original Sticht plate being 'banned' in Germany after someone was dropped.
> Its the logical next step after having used the hms knot for the last couple of centuries
I do recall tales of the original Sticht plate being 'banned' in Germany after someone was dropped.
In reply to Neil Williams:
Surely that would only happen if they were using the lever to pay out slack? Everyone I have ever seen seen belaying with a gri-gri has their hands no-where near the lever - it remains folded down until the leader has stopped climbing and wants to be lowered.
> The only device I have a dislike for is the Grigri as it is counterintuitive in use to someone panicking, and this has resulted in accidents. You grab tighter on the lever, you release the rope.
Surely that would only happen if they were using the lever to pay out slack? Everyone I have ever seen seen belaying with a gri-gri has their hands no-where near the lever - it remains folded down until the leader has stopped climbing and wants to be lowered.
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In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
Well, yeah, lowering is one opportunity for people to be dropped. If the belayer lowers the climber faster than intended, they can panic and just keep hauling on the lever. People can also death grip the device if someone falls off unexpectedly, especially if they're holding the device to pay out slack at the time.
> Surely that would only happen if they were using the lever to pay out slack? Everyone I have ever seen seen belaying with a gri-gri has their hands no-where near the lever - it remains folded down until the leader has stopped climbing and wants to be lowered.
Well, yeah, lowering is one opportunity for people to be dropped. If the belayer lowers the climber faster than intended, they can panic and just keep hauling on the lever. People can also death grip the device if someone falls off unexpectedly, especially if they're holding the device to pay out slack at the time.
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In reply to Luke90:
to be honest, if someone is prone to panicking whilst lowering their partner - as placid and non-dynamic a part of the belaying process as there is - I don't think I would trust them with any device - I suspect they would find a way around the most "idiot proof" of engineering.
to be honest, if someone is prone to panicking whilst lowering their partner - as placid and non-dynamic a part of the belaying process as there is - I don't think I would trust them with any device - I suspect they would find a way around the most "idiot proof" of engineering.
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In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
People aren't robots, they can respond unexpectedly. I'm not suggesting that a competent belayer is likely to get breathlessly hysterical over lowering somebody. Perhaps panic was the wrong word, maybe "making incorrect split-second decisions while under sudden and unexpected pressure". If the climber starts to move faster than anticipated, there's an instinctive reaction to grip/pull harder, which I believe is where problems have sometimes arisen with the GriGri, as confirmed by Petzl's addition of features to overcome the problem. Fortunately, I've never witnessed this problem, I'm just relaying what I've heard other people describe and it seems logical. Especially given that GriGris are often used with beginners.
People aren't robots, they can respond unexpectedly. I'm not suggesting that a competent belayer is likely to get breathlessly hysterical over lowering somebody. Perhaps panic was the wrong word, maybe "making incorrect split-second decisions while under sudden and unexpected pressure". If the climber starts to move faster than anticipated, there's an instinctive reaction to grip/pull harder, which I believe is where problems have sometimes arisen with the GriGri, as confirmed by Petzl's addition of features to overcome the problem. Fortunately, I've never witnessed this problem, I'm just relaying what I've heard other people describe and it seems logical. Especially given that GriGris are often used with beginners.
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In reply to Andy Say:
The DAV (german norm) have done some tests with belaying a first and second on lead climbing.
Out of the test is that Novice and experienced belayers tend too give out to much slack, and not be able to hold a fall.
A half automatic has provide to re juice accidents by 20%.
(there is still a problem with people not finishing there knots, but that is a different problem)
The DAV (german norm) have done some tests with belaying a first and second on lead climbing.
Out of the test is that Novice and experienced belayers tend too give out to much slack, and not be able to hold a fall.
A half automatic has provide to re juice accidents by 20%.
(there is still a problem with people not finishing there knots, but that is a different problem)
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In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
In english they call it a assisted Belay Devices, the dutch and german name is translated Half automatic.
The germans see a Edelelrid ohm as a assisted belay device.
(they have more names for thing than in english)
In english they call it a assisted Belay Devices, the dutch and german name is translated Half automatic.
The germans see a Edelelrid ohm as a assisted belay device.
(they have more names for thing than in english)
In reply to Neil Williams:
Don't climb with people who are prone to panic attacks? I have never seen anyone at the crag have a spontaneous
panic attack.
GriGri 1 by a mile. It has stood the test of time. The only people who don't like them are those who haven't really tried it properly. They get a bad rep from the same hysterical types that don't like the bowline for tying in.
> The only device I have a dislike for is the Grigri as it is counterintuitive in use to someone panicking
Don't climb with people who are prone to panic attacks? I have never seen anyone at the crag have a spontaneous
panic attack.
GriGri 1 by a mile. It has stood the test of time. The only people who don't like them are those who haven't really tried it properly. They get a bad rep from the same hysterical types that don't like the bowline for tying in.
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In reply to resqueman:
Last month I was in contact with the DAV safety unit (DAV-Sicherheitsforschung) inquiring to the reasons why they recommend semi automatic belay devices over tube type belay devices for use in their indoor gyms. It turned out they have no statistics backing up that recommendation but refer to a "higher safety potential". To complete their recommendation they stress the importance of education and training no matter what belay device you use.
I tend to concur with their feeling that indoors and at single pitch crags the semi's have a higher safety potential, namely the ones with "panic-control". However, for general mountaineering and when handling half ropes I prefer tubes with grooves for additional friction like the Petzl reverso and the ATC guide.
Last month I was in contact with the DAV safety unit (DAV-Sicherheitsforschung) inquiring to the reasons why they recommend semi automatic belay devices over tube type belay devices for use in their indoor gyms. It turned out they have no statistics backing up that recommendation but refer to a "higher safety potential". To complete their recommendation they stress the importance of education and training no matter what belay device you use.
I tend to concur with their feeling that indoors and at single pitch crags the semi's have a higher safety potential, namely the ones with "panic-control". However, for general mountaineering and when handling half ropes I prefer tubes with grooves for additional friction like the Petzl reverso and the ATC guide.
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In reply to HeMa:
Sounds good.
> The GriGri 2+ (and Camp Matik) both "fix" this issue the same while bulky Petzl Id't or what ever it was called. Meaning if you pull it the lever too hard, it'll stop giving slack.
Sounds good.
In reply to snoop6060:
People are human - anyone can panic in the right circumstances. It's best to design counterintuitive failure modes out of safety systems.
It seems from what others have posted that Petzl agree and have finally addressed the issue in the latest design of Grigri.
> Don't climb with people who are prone to panic attacks? I have never seen anyone at the crag have a spontaneous
> panic attack.
> panic attack.
People are human - anyone can panic in the right circumstances. It's best to design counterintuitive failure modes out of safety systems.
It seems from what others have posted that Petzl agree and have finally addressed the issue in the latest design of Grigri.
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In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
It's a lowering (or abbing) issue, not a paying-out one.
> Surely that would only happen if they were using the lever to pay out slack? Everyone I have ever seen seen belaying with a gri-gri has their hands no-where near the lever - it remains folded down until the leader has stopped climbing and wants to be lowered.
It's a lowering (or abbing) issue, not a paying-out one.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Petzl just want to change the design so they can sell more. They almost certainly don't agree the grigri 1 is dangerous. Email em and ask. The grigri+ looks wank.
Petzl just want to change the design so they can sell more. They almost certainly don't agree the grigri 1 is dangerous. Email em and ask. The grigri+ looks wank.
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In reply to snoop6060:
Have a like for that.
> GriGri 1 by a mile. It has stood the test of time. The only people who don't like them are those who haven't really tried it properly. They get a bad rep from the same hysterical types that don't like the bowline for tying in.
Have a like for that.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
The GriGri Plus is aimed at beginners, for those that CAN belay the standard GriGri remains in production. Anyone who´ s used the Edelrid Eddy can tell you that "anti-panic" features are not as desirable as one might hope.
The GriGri Plus is aimed at beginners, for those that CAN belay the standard GriGri remains in production. Anyone who´ s used the Edelrid Eddy can tell you that "anti-panic" features are not as desirable as one might hope.
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In reply to jimtitt:
Have you tried a trango vergo? I had one in my hand last night.
Was ok, feeding out rope was something to get used to on trad.
Have you tried a trango vergo? I had one in my hand last night.
Was ok, feeding out rope was something to get used to on trad.
In reply to snoop6060:
Disagree on that. The GriGri is by far the most misused belay device out there. Standing in the gym, is like having the petzl video about how NOT to used the GriGri played about everywhere around you.
Even the gym manager belays with one hand on just the cam and the other one pulling slack...
Disagree on that. The GriGri is by far the most misused belay device out there. Standing in the gym, is like having the petzl video about how NOT to used the GriGri played about everywhere around you.
Even the gym manager belays with one hand on just the cam and the other one pulling slack...
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In reply to resqueman:
These particular devices are very much a matter of personal preference, probably more so than other devices. I've used a CT Click-Up, Mammut Smart, Gri Gri 2, GriGri 1, Megajule and I find the Clickup to be the best, closely followed by the Smart as IMO these two have the least affect on belaying technique.
Al
These particular devices are very much a matter of personal preference, probably more so than other devices. I've used a CT Click-Up, Mammut Smart, Gri Gri 2, GriGri 1, Megajule and I find the Clickup to be the best, closely followed by the Smart as IMO these two have the least affect on belaying technique.
Al
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In reply to GridNorth:
You mean your belay technique surely. I have a friend who´ s been climbing about 25 years at a high level and has never used anything but a GriGri.
You mean your belay technique surely. I have a friend who´ s been climbing about 25 years at a high level and has never used anything but a GriGri.
In reply to jimtitt:
Talking about things like Mega Jul Jim, I had a whole day off to myself and re-read this, took a while!!!
https://www.mountainproject.com/v/edelrid-megajul-belay-device/109133730
Talking about things like Mega Jul Jim, I had a whole day off to myself and re-read this, took a while!!!
https://www.mountainproject.com/v/edelrid-megajul-belay-device/109133730
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In reply to snoop6060:
I'm obviously a weirdo then; I don't like the Gri-Gri (useless for double rope trad for a start) but love the bowline.
> GriGri 1 by a mile. It has stood the test of time. The only people who don't like them are those who haven't really tried it properly. They get a bad rep from the same hysterical types that don't like the bowline for tying in.
I'm obviously a weirdo then; I don't like the Gri-Gri (useless for double rope trad for a start) but love the bowline.
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In reply to resqueman:
My preferences for the Click-up and the Smart are based on their feel and ease of use in practical situations and limited to single pitch Sport climbing so much of the comment and indeed results of tests in labs are not necessarily valid in that context. I'm not an an Engineer but neither am I an armchair climber. I sometimes sit on the floor
Al
My preferences for the Click-up and the Smart are based on their feel and ease of use in practical situations and limited to single pitch Sport climbing so much of the comment and indeed results of tests in labs are not necessarily valid in that context. I'm not an an Engineer but neither am I an armchair climber. I sometimes sit on the floor
Al
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In reply to Denni:
There is a Mega Jul Jim? (You sure it's not 'Gym'?). When did they sneak that out?
> Talking about things like Mega Jul Jim, I had a whole day off to myself and re-read this, took a while!!!
There is a Mega Jul Jim? (You sure it's not 'Gym'?). When did they sneak that out?
In reply to Neil Williams:
Even they grab at the wwr the hand that is on the rope should still do.the job.
If you mistrust your belayer so seriously I'd recommend that you find another partner.
> It's a lowering (or abbing) issue, not a paying-out one.
Even they grab at the wwr the hand that is on the rope should still do.the job.
If you mistrust your belayer so seriously I'd recommend that you find another partner.
In reply to timjones:
I prefer to design out counterintuitive failure modes rather than rely on fallible humans to mitigate them, personally.
> If you mistrust your belayer so seriously I'd recommend that you find another partner.
I prefer to design out counterintuitive failure modes rather than rely on fallible humans to mitigate them, personally.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
With such a hyper-cautious outlook can you ever manage to cross the road
> I prefer to design out counterintuitive failure modes rather than rely on fallible humans to mitigate them, personally.
With such a hyper-cautious outlook can you ever manage to cross the road
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In reply to Neil Williams:
It's interesting to me that the grigri is always held to account for user error, but no other devices are. A strange double standard. If a few accidents were caused (and I'm sure more than a few have been) by ATC belayers "panicking" and "intuitively" grabbing the live rope rather than the dead rope, you wouldn't get anyone talking about how the ATC suffers from "counterintuitive failure modes" or suggesting it needs a redesign.
If you hold the grigri to the standard people use for the ATC (belayer never makes a mistake), it comes out slightly safer (incapacitation by rockfall, factor 2s). If you hold the ATC to the standard people use for the grigri (belayer rarely gets anything right), the grigri is much better (you might not die, vs. you definitely will die).
No matter what belay device you are using you should:
a) be practised enough not to "panic" indoors
b) be able to do the basic rudiments of belaying (holding the dead rope) "intuitively" and when you are "panicked"
It's interesting to me that the grigri is always held to account for user error, but no other devices are. A strange double standard. If a few accidents were caused (and I'm sure more than a few have been) by ATC belayers "panicking" and "intuitively" grabbing the live rope rather than the dead rope, you wouldn't get anyone talking about how the ATC suffers from "counterintuitive failure modes" or suggesting it needs a redesign.
If you hold the grigri to the standard people use for the ATC (belayer never makes a mistake), it comes out slightly safer (incapacitation by rockfall, factor 2s). If you hold the ATC to the standard people use for the grigri (belayer rarely gets anything right), the grigri is much better (you might not die, vs. you definitely will die).
No matter what belay device you are using you should:
a) be practised enough not to "panic" indoors
b) be able to do the basic rudiments of belaying (holding the dead rope) "intuitively" and when you are "panicked"
Post edited at 09:21
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In reply to resqueman:
IMO the problem with the GriGri is that it has a higher potential to be misused not that it is inherently more unsafe.
Al
IMO the problem with the GriGri is that it has a higher potential to be misused not that it is inherently more unsafe.
Al
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In reply to timjones:
I am a bit risk-averse at times, but it's more a design view - humans "revert to type" when they are stressed. A classic one is aeroplane seat-belt buckles - in panic it has been shown that people try to release them like car ones, and in a fire the few seconds of realisation could be the difference between life and death. I've done it myself in less stressful circumstances - gone down to the right and wondered why the button wasn't there.
> With such a hyper-cautious outlook can you ever manage to cross the road
I am a bit risk-averse at times, but it's more a design view - humans "revert to type" when they are stressed. A classic one is aeroplane seat-belt buckles - in panic it has been shown that people try to release them like car ones, and in a fire the few seconds of realisation could be the difference between life and death. I've done it myself in less stressful circumstances - gone down to the right and wondered why the button wasn't there.
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In reply to GridNorth:
The Grigri on balance is probably safer than an ATC for the reason teltrabm says. However, that isn't a reason for them not to design out what is a fairly significant counterintuitive[1] flaw and so make it much safer. And it seems Petzl agreed as they apparently now have done.
[1] The instinctive human response to something needing to be stopped is to grab, pull or push whatever you are grabbing, pulling or pushing harder or tighter.
> IMO the problem with the GriGri is that it has a higher potential to be misused not that it is inherently more unsafe.
The Grigri on balance is probably safer than an ATC for the reason teltrabm says. However, that isn't a reason for them not to design out what is a fairly significant counterintuitive[1] flaw and so make it much safer. And it seems Petzl agreed as they apparently now have done.
[1] The instinctive human response to something needing to be stopped is to grab, pull or push whatever you are grabbing, pulling or pushing harder or tighter.
In reply to Neil Williams:
The instinctive reaction of a good, experienced belayer will be to hold tight on the dead rope when the excrement hits the fan. There should be no drilled in alternative as there is with seat belts.
A belayer who instinctively reacts in any other way is not fit for purpose
> I am a bit risk-averse at times, but it's more a design view - humans "revert to type" when they are stressed. A classic one is aeroplane seat-belt buckles - in panic it has been shown that people try to release them like car ones, and in a fire the few seconds of realisation could be the difference between life and death. I've done it myself in less stressful circumstances - gone down to the right and wondered why the button wasn't there.
The instinctive reaction of a good, experienced belayer will be to hold tight on the dead rope when the excrement hits the fan. There should be no drilled in alternative as there is with seat belts.
A belayer who instinctively reacts in any other way is not fit for purpose
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Correct.
If you are using a Grigri correctly one of things you are ""grabbing" will be the dead rope. If you pull that harder there will be no problem regardless of what you do with the lever on the device.
If you don't have the instinct to hold the dead rope then you shouldn't be belaying anyone regardless of the device that you are using.
> [1] The instinctive human response to something needing to be stopped is to grab, pull or push whatever you are grabbing, pulling or pushing harder or tighter.
Correct.
If you are using a Grigri correctly one of things you are ""grabbing" will be the dead rope. If you pull that harder there will be no problem regardless of what you do with the lever on the device.
If you don't have the instinct to hold the dead rope then you shouldn't be belaying anyone regardless of the device that you are using.
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In reply to timjones:
One problem and the reason I don't like GriGri's is that you need one technique to pay out rope fast and another, different technique to hold a fall. I believe that some of the accidents that have occured were because of this confusion. With the Click-up they are both the same.
Al
One problem and the reason I don't like GriGri's is that you need one technique to pay out rope fast and another, different technique to hold a fall. I believe that some of the accidents that have occured were because of this confusion. With the Click-up they are both the same.
Al
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In reply to GridNorth:
Bit like driving a car then, press one pedal to go and another to stop. Exactly how low a level of ability are manufacturers supposed to cater for?
Bit like driving a car then, press one pedal to go and another to stop. Exactly how low a level of ability are manufacturers supposed to cater for?
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In reply to jimtitt:
No idea, I'm just expressing a personal opinion but seeing as you have drawn the analogy I could point out that an automatic car is easier to drive than a manual.
No idea, I'm just expressing a personal opinion but seeing as you have drawn the analogy I could point out that an automatic car is easier to drive than a manual.
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In reply to timjones:
You cannot lower on a Grigri without allowing the dead rope to slide through your hand, unless you have three hands. That is the key difference from the more intuitive use of the ATC, where the principle is that you don't ever[1] do anything without a firm grip by at least one hand on the dead rope at all times.
[1] OK, you do when paying out for lead belaying for a split second to move the hand down the dead rope, but I would expect lead climbers to be experienced and practiced enough not to stuff up lowering on a Grigri, however counterintuitive it may be. And some people lower on ATCs by letting the rope slide, but that, however common, really is a bad habit.
> If you are using a Grigri correctly one of things you are ""grabbing" will be the dead rope.
You cannot lower on a Grigri without allowing the dead rope to slide through your hand, unless you have three hands. That is the key difference from the more intuitive use of the ATC, where the principle is that you don't ever[1] do anything without a firm grip by at least one hand on the dead rope at all times.
[1] OK, you do when paying out for lead belaying for a split second to move the hand down the dead rope, but I would expect lead climbers to be experienced and practiced enough not to stuff up lowering on a Grigri, however counterintuitive it may be. And some people lower on ATCs by letting the rope slide, but that, however common, really is a bad habit.
Post edited at 17:29
2
3
In reply to resqueman:
I'm very much looking forward to the release of the Wild Country Revo - although the word on the street is they now won't be released until May.
http://www.wildcountry.com/revo/
I'm very much looking forward to the release of the Wild Country Revo - although the word on the street is they now won't be released until May.
http://www.wildcountry.com/revo/
1
In reply to Neil Williams:
And some people lower on ATCs by letting the rope slide, but that, however common, really is a bad habit.
Where on earth did you get that barmy idea?
And some people lower on ATCs by letting the rope slide, but that, however common, really is a bad habit.
Where on earth did you get that barmy idea?
4
In reply to GridNorth:
I don't think it is the two techniques that are the problem, the problem is that you have to disconnect braking in order to pump slack with a Grigri, (and the Smart, and the Juls), and there is the potential---definitely realized in cases I know about with the Grigri and Smart---that braking will remain disconnected when a fall happens.
Personally, from an essentially philosophical point of view, I think an assisted braking device that obliges you to disconnect the braking function in order to pump out slack is an intrinsically flawed bit of engineering. Although I don't think that there can be any question that this "flaw" causes accidents (which the device apologists always ascribe to user error, thereby defining away any possibility of device flaws), the DAV analysis of gym accidents suggests that tube-style devices (with no assisted locking feature) cause more accidents, so there you have it.
> One problem and the reason I don't like GriGri's is that you need one technique to pay out rope fast and another, different technique to hold a fall. I believe that some of the accidents that have occured were because of this confusion. With the Click-up they are both the same.
> Al
I don't think it is the two techniques that are the problem, the problem is that you have to disconnect braking in order to pump slack with a Grigri, (and the Smart, and the Juls), and there is the potential---definitely realized in cases I know about with the Grigri and Smart---that braking will remain disconnected when a fall happens.
Personally, from an essentially philosophical point of view, I think an assisted braking device that obliges you to disconnect the braking function in order to pump out slack is an intrinsically flawed bit of engineering. Although I don't think that there can be any question that this "flaw" causes accidents (which the device apologists always ascribe to user error, thereby defining away any possibility of device flaws), the DAV analysis of gym accidents suggests that tube-style devices (with no assisted locking feature) cause more accidents, so there you have it.
1
In reply to rgold:
Interesting, I only find it to be the case that you need the press the thumb if you use a rope of 10.5 mm.
In the wall, I use a 10 mm and never ever to use the thumb. I find that it also forces me to really watch the leader and anticipate the moment they reach for slack in which case I step by two or three steps into the wall and give an armful.
Pretty similar to a normal device, except that if you weren't expecting your leader to reach for slack, you'd short rope them.
It's a small price to pay in my opinion for the added security and the comfort when someone is hanging on a project or taking multiple falls.
Interesting, I only find it to be the case that you need the press the thumb if you use a rope of 10.5 mm.
In the wall, I use a 10 mm and never ever to use the thumb. I find that it also forces me to really watch the leader and anticipate the moment they reach for slack in which case I step by two or three steps into the wall and give an armful.
Pretty similar to a normal device, except that if you weren't expecting your leader to reach for slack, you'd short rope them.
It's a small price to pay in my opinion for the added security and the comfort when someone is hanging on a project or taking multiple falls.
2
In reply to Neil Williams:
Who on earth told you that?
You let the rope slide to lower and hold it firmly to stop. Loosing control of the rope is a bad habit but you can let it slide whilst retaining control.
> You cannot lower on a Grigri without allowing the dead rope to slide through your hand, unless you have three hands. That is the key difference from the more intuitive use of the ATC, where the principle is that you don't ever[1] do anything without a firm grip by at least one hand on the dead rope at all times.
> [1] OK, you do when paying out for lead belaying for a split second to move the hand down the dead rope, but I would expect lead climbers to be experienced and practiced enough not to stuff up lowering on a Grigri, however counterintuitive it may be. And some people lower on ATCs by letting the rope slide, but that, however common, really is a bad habit.
Who on earth told you that?
You let the rope slide to lower and hold it firmly to stop. Loosing control of the rope is a bad habit but you can let it slide whilst retaining control.
In reply to timjones:
Whoever taught me to belay....which is going back a bit, so a good question!
The way I was taught it was that you should instead put both hands down and slide one hand at a time (not hand over hand, as you can easily follow off the rope then), thus always holding it firmly with one of the two, thus maintaining better control, the exception being paying out when lead belaying as you can't avoid doing so as you need the other hand above the plate to pull through.
> Who on earth told you that?
Whoever taught me to belay....which is going back a bit, so a good question!
> You let the rope slide to lower and hold it firmly to stop. Loosing control of the rope is a bad habit but you can let it slide whilst retaining control.
The way I was taught it was that you should instead put both hands down and slide one hand at a time (not hand over hand, as you can easily follow off the rope then), thus always holding it firmly with one of the two, thus maintaining better control, the exception being paying out when lead belaying as you can't avoid doing so as you need the other hand above the plate to pull through.
In reply to Neil Williams:
That gets very fiddly if you're following it to the letter.
In practice I would suggest that it is perfectly possible to retain control whilst letting the rope gently slide through your top hand as you reposition the bottom one.
> Whoever taught me to belay....which is going back a bit, so a good question!
> The way I was taught it was that you should instead put both hands down and slide one hand at a time (not hand over hand, as you can easily follow off the rope then), thus always holding it firmly with one of the two, thus maintaining better control, the exception being paying out when lead belaying as you can't avoid doing so as you need the other hand above the plate to pull through.
That gets very fiddly if you're following it to the letter.
In practice I would suggest that it is perfectly possible to retain control whilst letting the rope gently slide through your top hand as you reposition the bottom one.
Post edited at 11:56
1
In reply to timjones:
This, along with Neil's beginner method, sound like excellent advice for newbies who don't yet feel comfortable and confident belaying properly and smoothly.
> In practice I would suggest that it is perfectly possible to retain control whilst letting the rope gently slide through your top hand as you reposition the bottom one.
This, along with Neil's beginner method, sound like excellent advice for newbies who don't yet feel comfortable and confident belaying properly and smoothly.
1
In reply to resqueman:
I am a big fan of not letting the rope slide when using a device where this is possible, and instead shuffling your hands. I required people to do this when teaching. I used to have a friend who liked to be lowered rapidly (don't ask me why, I hate being lowered quickly). If I did this by letting the rope slide I would have burned my hand and let go. I think it's a bit like steering in a car; most people don't do it in the driving-test approved fashion, but it is actually a very good way to steer 99.9% of the time (unless you are doing stunt driving) if you actually practice being good at it.
The reason I like the grigri is because it is a bit like why the combined pill is more much more effective in common use (at preventing pregnancy) than the condoms. In order to use my grigri(2) safely I have to do the correct thing in low stress situations, i.e. lowering and not holding down the lever when giving slack. Provided I use the device 'correctly' in these low stress situations, then it will always catch a fall, which is a high stress situation, even if I screw up and am not paying attention.
This will not, of course, mean that anyone actually belays correctly; the amount of slack rope I see when people are only one clip up is always disturbing...
I am a big fan of not letting the rope slide when using a device where this is possible, and instead shuffling your hands. I required people to do this when teaching. I used to have a friend who liked to be lowered rapidly (don't ask me why, I hate being lowered quickly). If I did this by letting the rope slide I would have burned my hand and let go. I think it's a bit like steering in a car; most people don't do it in the driving-test approved fashion, but it is actually a very good way to steer 99.9% of the time (unless you are doing stunt driving) if you actually practice being good at it.
The reason I like the grigri is because it is a bit like why the combined pill is more much more effective in common use (at preventing pregnancy) than the condoms. In order to use my grigri(2) safely I have to do the correct thing in low stress situations, i.e. lowering and not holding down the lever when giving slack. Provided I use the device 'correctly' in these low stress situations, then it will always catch a fall, which is a high stress situation, even if I screw up and am not paying attention.
This will not, of course, mean that anyone actually belays correctly; the amount of slack rope I see when people are only one clip up is always disturbing...
Post edited at 17:56
1
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Thank you andrew for you advice.
I have been scouting the internet for assisted belay devices and gone to a test evening at a gym.
I have found and felt the Climbing Technology: click-up/Mammut: Smart/Petzl: GriGri2/AustriAlpin: Fish/Beal: Air Force 3/Edelrid: Eddy/ Camp: Matik and the Trango: Vergo.
I (own preference) think that the smart and click-up and fish are the best indoor belay device for people starting out and the safest way to prevent accidents indoors.
I liked the trango vergo the best, It was hard to get used to in the beginning (it was new to the instructor).
It has to be used horizontal to give out, and if it blocks when giving out you have to squeeze it together.
youtube.com/watch?v=QITpvF9SIGs&
The grigri2/Eddy/Matik are all the same, easy to use but if not used the right way, can be used wrong.
Thank you andrew for you advice.
I have been scouting the internet for assisted belay devices and gone to a test evening at a gym.
I have found and felt the Climbing Technology: click-up/Mammut: Smart/Petzl: GriGri2/AustriAlpin: Fish/Beal: Air Force 3/Edelrid: Eddy/ Camp: Matik and the Trango: Vergo.
I (own preference) think that the smart and click-up and fish are the best indoor belay device for people starting out and the safest way to prevent accidents indoors.
I liked the trango vergo the best, It was hard to get used to in the beginning (it was new to the instructor).
It has to be used horizontal to give out, and if it blocks when giving out you have to squeeze it together.
youtube.com/watch?v=QITpvF9SIGs&
The grigri2/Eddy/Matik are all the same, easy to use but if not used the right way, can be used wrong.
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