UKH

Do people still rate a fleece jacket/trousers as good mountain kit?

Is it all about the softshell these days?

In reply to lordyosch:

What mountain?

In reply to zimpara:

Just thinking in general. The kit web sites have so little fleece these days. Much more softshell and insulated stuff.

In reply to lordyosch:

Yes. Having tried just about all the new synthetic insulating material on offer at the moment, I still think hi-loft fleece is the best thing under a waterproof on a cold, wet day.

In reply to lordyosch:

I LOVE powerstretch fleece tights, and powerstretch as a midlayer top too.

That said, I agree that instead of the old fluffy Polartec 200 and 300 weight fleeces I used to wear, I now have an assortment of jackets like Marmot Variant, Montane Prism (brilliant!), and several mid layer hard-face fleeces similar to Powerstretch.

So the fleece isn't dead, but it's evolving

In reply to lordyosch:

It might not be at the cutting edge any more- though from other people's comments it very well may be- but speaking for students and any other skint climbers, a Craghoppers fleece is very much better than a Patagonia Nano Puff I can't afford.

In reply to lordyosch:

Montane prism for me, fleeces don't generally come with hoods do they? Which could be why soft shells are popular. Is the prism insulation or softshell though... hmm

In reply to lordyosch:



Well....looking at what I'm wearing right now then, no. Softshell has its place as a sort-of-warm pretend waterproof that breathes. But fleece is good. Crap windproofing but ace warmth.

In reply to Jamie Hageman:

My Prism's great but I find it quite a bit warmer than a Polartec 100 fleece - I don't find the two to be interchangeable. I've also got a Montane version of the waffle fleece ME Eclipse tops, and that can be a bit on the thin side. For me, there's definitely a place for that trusty and bombproof bog standard fleece.

In reply to lordyosch:

Both have their benefits and places I'd say.

In reply to LJC:

This.
When you're wearing a hard shell for most of the day, fleece is ideal. It only does one job, insulation, but does it well. Soft shells are great for high activity drier days.

Plus, I've yet to see any high end soft shell jackets with wolf pictures on.

In reply to lordyosch:

Yeah fleece is so last season. In fact I'll take any old aqua fleece or older version of wind stopper jackets off your hands for free. Leaving space in your cupboard for some high tech patagucci jackets that will no doubt tear the first time it skims a bush.

imho, as an under layer beneath jackets or gortex salopettes, fleece is superior, it traps more air, keeps your warmer, wicks better. The high tech stuff is pretty, and will repel moisture and wind as an outer layer, but it's mid layer properties just aren't as good. Even the older(pre 2000) ME or helly hanson stuff is just as good as anything new.

In reply to lordyosch:

My very expensive softshell jacket lies hardly used as I can't figure out what its best use is.
Not as warm as a fleece on a cold day, not as waterproof as a hard shell on a wet day, its a sort of 'jack of all trades master of none, type of jacket.
Might be good on a dry,windy day if you're moving or it isn't very cold but so is my cheap aldi jumper and windproof jacket.
I fear I might have fallen victim to the fashion advertisers.
Again!

In reply to baron:

Fashion is a consideration. Them lurid fleece suits had a "gimp" like quality especially when worn with a matching balaclava. I had an all in one purple number.

In reply to Andy Say:

Some fleeces were quite windproof too. I've had one of the original yellow/grey ME ultrafleeces (passed on, hasn't 'grown' with me) and still have a red/black ultrafleece jacket with the powerstretch hood. Windproof and seemingly indestructable. A bit heavier than modern stuff, but gets used more and will probably outlive them (and me).

In reply to Marek:


Duofold! A great brand with laminated microfleece around a windproof layer. I think ME bought them out to get hands on their thermals and didn't need the fleeces so the brand died. But quality stuff!

In reply to lordyosch:

No!

I pretty much live in fleeces of one sort or another. My BIGGEST gripe in outdoor shops is that I can never find 200, 300, 400 Polartec fleece jumpers of the sorts that I like to wear pretty much all the time. Yes, my (Quecha or Craghoppers) microfleece is ideal for work and is dirt cheap, but I want something warmer to wear the rest of the time. Stock some and I will come into your store and also no doubt get tempted by other goodies as well, but I've become increasingly unbothered about going to even look.

Fleeces are forever!

In reply to lordyosch:

Yes. I have owned a Marmot Driclime and a Rab Vapourise for ten years. Good kit in their own right but not warm enough for cold days when you stop. The Driclime has several tears whereas the vapour rise is more robust. I tend to wear them for walking up, then bag them near the top in favour of either a buffalo or Helly pile jacket and 3 layer goretex. Only then do I feel protected and warm.
I had an old ME aqua fleece which was neither waterproof or breathable.
Not versatile enough IMO.

In reply to Andy Say:


It's not just that. A drizzle or lean against whet rock and your fleece is soaked.

I can't remember when my softshell trousers or jackets got wet. The outer is also hardwearing - I have been using a second hand Marmot softshell trousers for a while, then got few cuts. Now use them at home and they are brilliant. Totally worth it.

In reply to Andy Say:


Ultrafleece (= karisma?) really was one of the best all-round fabrics for UK activities. Fairly windproof and warm, and yet light and not bulky -- and close to indestructable. Shame that ME dropped it. It's still as good at what it does as anything around.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


You had one didn't you?

In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Has the Variant been useful for Jamie?

To the OP, I reckon a well fitting micro fleece, preferably of the grid type of smooth on the outside and maybe with a hood is one of the most adaptable mid layers you can get?

In reply to lordyosch:

The thing that fleece has going for it is indestructibility. It's not the warmest or lightest but I can wear a fleece pretty much every day for years without it falling to bits.

In reply to lordyosch:

I been rocking some old ME (I think) ultrafleece bottoms - they've got an elastic drawstring thingy around the waist and the ankles. Modified it to take braces - cracking bit of kit. Gonna test it out in scotland this season (with a pair of really old sprayaway overtrousers).

If anyone can recommend a good fleece with high pockets big enough for a map I'm all ears!

In reply to lordyosch:



The old Javelin jackets from the 70's were brilliant. Reasonably wind proof, warm and virtually indestructible. One of those over a Helly Hansen polar sweater and under a waterproof jacket has kept me warm and comfortable on many a winter route in Scotland, even in foul weather.

In reply to lordyosch:

As a cynic, I have a suspicion that softshell gets pushed because there's more money in it...

Fleece isn't 'technical' enough. Apart from the 'technical' fleeces, of course...

Softshell seems to have too narrow an operating weather range, and isn't waterproof, so you need one of those, too.

And I'm still not convinced by the synthgetic replacement mid-layers; again, more money to be made, and not as long-lasting.

There's still a lot to be said for a five-layer system of base layer, fleece, windprooif, waterproof and insulating overlayer. And I own about 25 soft shells...

Recently, I've found myself wearing very light fleece base layer (PowerDry or similar), and layering a shelled micropile. So I am wearing some of my softshell collection, but fleece too...

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Except you could melt holes in them with flying embers from a fire

In reply to TobyA:



Agreed. Works as wicking base layer or mid layer. In fact I've cut one at the sleeves to make a tee shirt that I wear under synthetic insulation for the coldest winter days,

But the basic proposition of this thread "is fleece better than softshell?" is surely flawed. Fleece is essentially a porous mid layer, softshell a wind blocking outer.

In reply to lordyosch:

I still wear an old ultimate thin fleece jacket for being in and around home, bought in 1984 from a factory outlet of Corahs for £11(which sounds a fair amount of money for then,but it was cheaper than the shops) and its great for lots of things.
I don't know if it counts as a soft-shell, but I do like the grey lightweight layer from Berghaus that folds into its own pocket and has the insulation in the form of primaloft. I always have it in my bag as its a relatively slim layer that has good insulation, and it doesn't take up much room.
So probably both have their role to play.

In reply to Doug:

Countless gritstone chimneys have put holes in both my ultrafleece jackets. The newer one had lower quality material and wore through faster; so, hardwearing but far from indestructible. If anyone made anything simlar now I would buy it.

In reply to BnB:


This is something a lot of people forget I suspect. The advertisements always show fleeces being worn as an outer layer for photographic purposes but it is only a mid layer unless conditions dictate otherwise. My cold day on the hills kit is still a fleece zip-neck shirt, thin fleece jacket, softshell or windproof and lightweight waterproof in the pack along with another zip-neck for emergency use.

In reply to Offwidth:


PHDesigns do a jacket in a similar fabric. There is also a windproof fleece in their sale, which starts on Tuesday.

In reply to More-On:

With hood and chest pockets?

In reply to Offwidth:
A yes to both of those.

http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/taiga-fleece-mountain-jacket

Edit:
The above link is their regular fleece offering. The one on offer in the sale is the Tundra Fleece mountain jacket for £99. Hood, chest pockets, wind and abrasion resistant (their words not mine).

In reply to LJC:

Just wondering have anyone actually tried using an old fashioned woolen jumper? I have an extensive collection all knitted by my own fair hand. I find wool much better than manmade products. If you choose the right wool they don't weigh much, don't smell and rarely need washing. Knitting is my favourite way to pass the long winter evenings.

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

My friend's dad was a Yorkshire climber of some repute back in the day, and it seems in every picture of him he's wearing a woolly jumper. She's continued the trend by sometimes turning up at the wall or crag in a fine-knit woolly polo neck jumper - I can see the logic.

In reply to nathan79:

That's them, cheers (couldn't link from phone for some reason)

Never tried them, but my PhD sleeping bags are very good fabric wise, so they should be OK...

In reply to lordyosch:
I seem to be in a minority, but I absolutely swear by Windstopper fleeces (e.g. the Berghaus Choktoi). They seem, with just a T-shirt underneath, to perfectly regulate my body temperature even when it's quite chilly, and aren't at all bulky.

I also wear one near enough all the time as a casual jacket, and the black one looks neat enough for work, too.

In reply to Tall Clare:


Do they have the surname Austin by any chance?

In reply to Neil Williams:

Presumably you don't sweat at all then!?

I haven't tried a fleece with a membrane in 15 or so years but they always seemed a flawed concept to me. Now a pertex over a fleece is hugely flexible 'system'.

In reply to Offwidth:


I believe that this stuff, "Karisma", is the same thing as Ultrafleece (which is what ME called it):

http://www.hillgear.com/acatalog/Hilltrek_Outdoor_Clothing.html

In reply to Goucho:

Haha, yes they do. My friend seems to be the coldest person in the known universe, which I imagine came from her dad.

In reply to lordyosch:

I have a couple of good quality softshells but I am sure I wear my fleeces more often. What I wear depends on what I am doing and the conditions. Light fleeces work well in a multi layer system and allows flexibility. Big thick dense fleece fine on an inactive base camp day. Fleece can be very hard wearing and last for years.

In reply to lordyosch:

My own kit wardrobe contains an old ultra fleece but I've not worn it for years. Preferring alternatives these days.

I just got to thinking because entering fleece gives you many fewer results these days

Personally I go with...
Summer: base layer with wind shirt
Autumn/spring: base layer with softshell
With a synthetic "down" as an insulator and hard shell as final if needed.

Winter: pile and pertex (down as added layer)

In reply to lordyosch:

Big fan of the Gore Windstopper fleece back in the day. Warmer than softshell, windproof and waterproof ish.

In reply to Tall Clare:


The legendary Alan Austin

In reply to lordyosch:

"Has fleece had its day?"

Definitely not, particularly when handsome designs like this are still available...

http://www.everythingwolf.com/shop/productdetails.aspx?ProductID=3621

In reply to plyometrics:

I prefer this one https://cdn1.thehunt.com/app/public/system/note_images/3468764/note_view/98...

In reply to Offwidth:


For that sort of endeavour then moleskin breeches and a stout tweed jacket are by far the best.

In reply to TobyA:

I sweat quite a lot, and they are I find sufficiently breathable.

In reply to lordyosch:

I still use a 20 year old fleece faced in something lik pertex. As far as I can see this is a 'soft shell' for all intents and purposes - albeit somewhat more breathable.

In reply to lordyosch:

I've been through all sorts of soft-shell jackets. I actually have one now which I really like for winter (only cheap from Decathlon), but my fleeces which I had popped back in the cupboard, have all made it back out again. I have a zipped Karrimor fleece which is so comfy and warm.

Sometimes simple is best.

Still find the combination of fleece (thin or thick depending on the season) plus a pertex top the most versatile

In reply to GrahamD:


Pertex/pile. The old Buffalo gear had a lot going for it in terms of windproofness and warmth even when wet. Disgusting to put on when it was wet and cold, though

In reply to Andy Say:

I never did have a faced pile jacket but I did have a Javlin Super S jacket (pile jacket with the smooth outer face, bit like a 'soft shell' I guess) - which was way too warm for anything other than messing around the dinghy yard. For walking I used a cheapy pile jacket which I still rated over my first fleece except fotr the fact it wore thin in places much too quickly.

In reply to Goucho:


Rab make a javelin style jacket, I have one. Not sure of the name but mine is petrol blue with a hood. It is my go to jacket at this time of year.

In reply to Mr Trebus:

I still miss my North Cape fleece pullover from c. 1988. It was brill : (

In reply to marsbar:

Agreed, still have one downstairs and used to wear it all the time, unfortunately the zip is knackered now, which helps not at all.....

In reply to plyometrics:

Round are way that is known as a 'coalville coat'.

In reply to lordyosch:

I dunno, there's new fleeces like this: http://www.climbingtips.com/gear/berghaus-extrem-7000-hoody-fleece-review/

Which is pretty climbing-focussed. Sure it's not windproof/etc, but sometimes a simple, breathable midlayer is jolly handy...

In reply to sparkymark:

Which is a (poor) copy of the ME Eclipse/Patagonia R1 which have been around for years, especially the R1 which is the original hooded waffle fleece.

I live in these types of fleeces in the winter.

In reply to John_Hat:

My zip has gone too. I might replace it when I get chance.

In reply to galpinos:


... and seems to be a replacement for the Smoulder hoody

http://www.berghaus.com/mens-smoulder-hoody-jacket/421735.html

I like the MEC T3 hoody:

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5026-604/T3-Hoodie