UKH

Hi folks

This is due a further reprint shortly. Would welcome any feedback - grades, stars, corrections & amendments etc.

I am planning on dropping several unpopular little visited crags, such as Caisteal Abhail on Arran, Creag Tharsuinn at Arrochar, possibly the Anvil in Argyll, in order to free up some space for additional topos, photos and new routes where possible.

Cheers,

Gary Latter
gary@scottishrock.co.uk

In reply to Gary Latter:

Hi Gary,

I think this is a good idea. I would try to include topos for all numbered routes (where feasible) and cut down on the descriptions unless imperative for route finding.

From a personal viewpoint, I'd like to see the history sections reduced in size (I'd save them for a book dedicated to that solely). Other than that, both volumes are really inspiring books with great photography.

In reply to Gary Latter:

Couple of minor topo things
page 99 - Mink walls the lines are all offset left and down from where they should be
page 171 - Eves arete the traverse line is above the overhang (rather than below as shown)

Look forward to the new version, my current one is starting to lose crags off the back and front...

In reply to Gary Latter:

I need to look at home to remember the details and will probably forget to do so, but from memory there were a couple of transposed routes in the Glen Clova topos. I eventually concluded that I did Parapet Route Direct (right hand) and not Pilgrims. Whatever I did felt more like HVS than MVS though! Maybe someone else will concur.

We also did Beanstalk direct finish that day (my only visit) and it felt like HVS too.

In reply to Gary Latter:

The topo/description is the wrong way round for Zigzag Double Direct (E2 5c) and Zigzag Direct (HVS 5b) in Glen Clova. This mistake led to me doing my first E2 lead actually, having only done 1 E1 before... so... thanks for that, I guess!

In reply to Gary Latter:

Cinderella at glen clova Cinderella (E6 6a)

I haven't done it but reports are that the gear you talk about is not there and it is E6.

Can't think of anything else at the moment.

Will you be updating Creag Dubh with your new routes?

In reply to Dangerous Dave:

Cinderella at glen clova Cinderella (E6 6a):

Aye, was speaking with Niall McNair at the weekend when we were in Clova, and he said the flake that the rock 4 was behind is no longer there, so now fairly bold - RPs & perhaps a skyhook now. Different route from when I climbed it back in late eighties, when it was a well protected OK E5.

Will you be updating Creag Dubh with your new routes? Only the starred ones. Oh wait a minute, the new Highland Outcrops omits most of the stars for my routes, with exception of Barrier Wall routes, which all went in as originally starred. Guess will try & include some of them, most of those on Barrier Wall can be put on a detailed topo. I've done a few more things since the new Highland Outcrops guide appeared, and fair few decent lines still to add...

In reply to all:

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

In reply to Gary Latter:

So not much detail to give but I remember finding the topos and descriptions of the Ardnamurchan crags confusing. Not sure whether I'm alone in this or not.

In reply to MB42:

Couple of minor topo things
page 99 - Mink walls the lines are all offset left and down from where they should be
page 171 - Eves arete the traverse line is above the overhang (rather than below as shown)

Aye, knew about the first one, some kinda glitch with publisher.

Look forward to the new version, my current one is starting to lose crags off the back and front...

Hopefully not because you've been using them as toilet paper!? Would've thought bit too shiny paper for that, but you never know...

Thanks for these.

In reply to sheelba:

Thanks. Intending to get a trip back out there. Was out in spring, but wild weather, never got further than the coffee shop unfortunately.

In reply to mishabruml:

The topo/description is the wrong way round for ZigZag Double Direct (E2 5c) and ZigZag Direct (HVS 5b) in Glen Clova. This mistake led to me doing my first E2 lead actually, having only done 1 E1 before... so... thanks for that, I guess!

Glad to have been of assistance!

In reply to mav:

Thanks for these. Someone else told me about Parapet Route discrepancies, & see on logbook here seems like 3 separate worthwhile routes there, plus the newer HVS 5b Pilgrims which is also reckoned to be very good.

Worth noting that there is now an abseil point at the top of Flake Route/Central Crack, on huge block on edge - 45m abseil gets you back down to path at base of lower tier.

Also placed sling & maillon at top of The Red Wall - 25m abseil down to right edge of crag.

On The Doonie, also replaced sling & maillon on large rowan at top of Furstenberg Finish to Special Brew (can gain this by climbing down 3m from top of Guinness also).

On the Upper Doonie, there is also a new sling & maillon on large thread at top of Vindaloo Direct - route is only 30m long (not 45m).

In reply to Gary Latter:
Feel free to give your own routes on Creag Dubh more stars than the existing classics. I don't mind.

In reply to Gary Latter:
How about including the excellent non-tidal bit at Mid Clyth as plan B for Sarclet. Something on the Aberdeen coast would give a good option for visitors when weather only good in east. Maybe Craig Stirling/Newtonhill - tremendous, clean, bird free routes from HVS to E6!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Mid Clyth sounds great - only problem is that its just a wee bit outwith the area covered by the South volume, which covers the area south of the Great Glen.

Would be great to extend the guide to include other areas, but limited space available, so no plans to to extend the area to the Aberdeenshire coast. The premise of the books was always to restrict the area covered to the Highlands & Islands. Other folk have suggested including popular crags such as Cummingston or Logie Head on the Moray coast, Kirrie Hill in Angus, and Hawkcraig in Fife, but again, I'd prefer to stick to the original areas.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

In reply to Gary Latter:
Hi Gary
Some things I've noticed:

P135 Apparition pitch 1 "as for guerdon grooves" but guerdon grooves isn't described in your guide.
P174 De Vreemde Stap is more like 25m in length. I also did Hesitation in a single pitch with 50m ropes.
P177 topo 1. Tilt is shown following line of chimney route. 4. Central Grooves shown following east face route.
P231 Storm "Omitting...tree belay to finish up Fang" should be finish up heatwave?
P274 photo caption should read (pitch 2) on The Bullroar.
P285 topo 13. The Long Climb is wrong. Further over to the right for top section. The basin is just above the "on" of Orion for example. 1. Direct Route on the Douglas Boulder is shown too far right also.
P353 topo 3. Jump for Joy top pitch not shown.
P354 Erse pitch 1 is 5b
P384 topo 4 and 4a are transposed
P432 topo 1. Crystal Ridge follows Pinnacle Buttress, CR starts to the right of snow patch.
P449 topo 1. Highway to Hell is further right.

Not that I'm an anorak,
Good book otherwise,
Cheers,
Capt.

In reply to Gary Latter:

Hey Gary

Black Friday on Styx Buttress, Polldubh is E5 6b.

Cheers

In reply to Gary Latter:

Black September at Creag na h-Iolaire (Glen Lednock) is E4 6a in both the old and the new Highland Outcrops guide (but gets E3 in yours). I vote E4 too - nasty ledge to hit if you fail the 6a crux.

Central Groove at Balnacoul Castle (Glen Lednock) has been upgraded from E2 5c to E4 6a in the latest Highland Outcrops guide - mainly due to the old pegs having rusted away - probably best to get that updated in your guide too. See also comments in UKC logbooks.

In reply to Gary Latter:

Could you please either clarify the route description or the topo for climb Ring of Fire Right-Hand (E3 6a) at Polldubh in Glen Nevis? My partner ended up taking a huge and scary lob after not realising he was on the E5 direct version, and we heard later another friend had done the same.

In reply to all:
Many thanks for the latest suggestions. Agree with all the grade changes.

Anyone able to offer better description for Ring of Fire Right-Hand? Done it a few times, but not for years. Always thought it was one of the best pitches of its grade in the glen? Is it OK at E3?

Having said that, used to recommend Black Friday as steady well-protected E4 and a good introduction at the grade. Thought possibly E5 6a at a push, but never considered it would be thought 6b. Anyone any other thoughts on the grade?

Whilst talking about routes in Glen Nevis, dont suppose anyone can comment on the quality of any of the many new routes that have appeared in the new Highland Outcrops South guide - in particular the following 3* routes: Over and Out on Pandora's Buttress; Tobe Hooper on Styx & the unlikely looking E4 Mirage up the left side of Edgehog on Wave Buttress?

Thanks for the feedback.

In reply to Gary Latter:

Hi Gary, Really enjoy the book - should keep me busy for years.
Comment on Ardverikie Wall: I think it's much better (rope drag!) to split the first pitch: there's a good belay about 10 m up. Then the next 35 m....
Loved the route...

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

I'd go E4 6b, short hard bit, very well protected and safe.

In reply to Maarten2:


I'd concur, have always done it that way. I also don't think it's Hard Severe...

In reply to Jamie B:

What do you think it is? (I haven't done it)

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Done it a few times and felt severe to me. Agree about splitting the start too.

In reply to Rich W Parker:
Funny you say that and i can understand the reasoning.

I was actually edging on E5 6a originally. My thoughts were its hard to tell if any individual move is actually 6b or if was just very pumped. It's definitely a very sustained top half though. I'm really terrible at judging tech grade though. (actually i think its a crappy system since a 5b move can feel 6a if its right after doing 10 5c moves).

Either way its hard to grade. Its either very sustained but well protected top end 6a or its (low?) 6b. The more i think about it the more confused im getting!! Whatever gary decides on, its a good route.

Edit: Just read Gary's comments above doubting its 6b. I'd agree. E5 6a makes sense. I reckon. It's a step up from any E4 I've done.

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:


That's (part) of what the overall grade is for.

All this is making me feel better about my failure on it many years ago!

In reply to all:
Thanks again for the feedback.

When I used to do lots of instructing work, I probably climbed Ardverikie Wall half-dozen times a year, and always thought HS 4b was spot on. Don't agree with Severe. Never had problem with rope drag on that pitch, tended to climb with 60m ropes & run few of the pitches together. Though I do remember leading it trailing three 60m single ropes once (probably big fat 10.5 or 11mm ropes at that) - was a fair bit of rope drag then!

What are people's thoughts on:
Savage Slit, Coire an Lochain - I think V.Diff, others say Severe?
Recess Route on The Cobbler - again I've given this V.Diff, others say Severe?

In reply to Gary Latter:


I agree with V.Diff - and definitely only IV in winter
I think you could make a case for Ardverikie being MVS and I can see why people not well within their comfort zone might prefer to split the first pitch.

In reply to Gary Latter:
Banana Groove: The Banana Groove (E4 6a)

Now, we did this on a very damp day (Titan's Wall was streaming with water) so I had a tough time, but it felt very sustained for E4.

Also, I think you'd be better omitting the note about going left to the spike on pitch 3. I found going out and back very fall-offable and did't get a rest or any gear. I think going direct up the corner is easier. If peple spot the spike and chose to try it, fair enough, but I think the description makes it sound like "the way to go" which I don't think it is. Great line, shame it doesn't get more traffic to keep the lichen at bay.

July Crack: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=143647

E1 any day of the week (Kudos to Robin Smith)

Pulling through the bulge is only adequately protected and quite tricky. Can be done in 1 monster pitch.

The Risk Businuss - there are now 2 in-situ ab stations to save you topping out on the mank.

That's all for now.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Thanks Robert. Great to hear from "the stongest E4 climber in the world" commenting on a Hard Severe! Whatever next...

You done Stone Bastion on the Shelterstone? If so, what line did you take, and worth ** overall?

In reply to Gary Latter:


Afraid I'm only the "strongest E2 climber in the world" at the moment........


Afraid not.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Thanks Alasdair. I haven't got round to doing this yet, sounds my kind of routes, sustained and well-protected. Tried it few years ago, but really cold wind, so backed off. Will amend the description accordingly.

In reply to Gary Latter:


Felt like VDiff to me, and it was raining at the time. But then several other Scottish VDiffs have felt right for the grade when I've climbed them, but have since been upgraded to Severe (eg Great Ridge Direct on Garbh Bheinn, or the Cioch Nose in Applecross). So perhaps Severe is more in keeping with other routes.

In reply to Gary Latter:

I think at least part of the source of disagreements on this grade is that some folk move quite a long way up and left at the top of the flake crack to a larger heathery stance (as here:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pC8tyXXXtMw/Ve6BU8HsIrI/AAAAAAAADTw/d5rZjNBrXT4/s...
and
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hi83sIFeCxs/Ve6Ba4xb7rI/AAAAAAAADUI/u-AptnemlaQ/s... )
and then inadvertently take an easier line on the next pitch (P3 in SR1, original P4) which avoids the crux slabby wall. And then even the "correct" line has more than one option - as per the topo in Classic Rock.

It's also a bit less convenient to split P1 since the demise of the original flake/block belay.

In reply to Gary Latter:

What! Nothing on Beinn Sgulaird in Glen Creran?

In reply to Gary Latter:

Hi Gary

Secondhand info - talking to the guys who did the classic E4 Rat Race at Dunkeld Cave Crag on Saturday they mentioned that apart from being a brilliant route they also said the belay pegs after P1 were 'not great and not ones you really wanted to hang about on' with 'a single crappy back up wire', may be handy for folks to know if there really is nothing better than what they found?

Cheers.

In reply to pebblespanker:

They belay is not "that" bad in the grand scheme of things, but might be worth mentioning it's not the best.

It's possible to do it in a oner.

In reply to pebblespanker:



I agree. That's been dangerous for years. I think it makes sense to do Rat Race in one pitch (I expect most people do) and to either do Warfarin in one pitch with careful ropework or else to do a short pitch with a bomber belay in the big Mousetrap corner.

In reply to Gary Latter:


both are a bit mean at VDiff....
Savage slit has had the shyte battered out of it by ice tools; all the cracks and edges are well rounded off.
Recess route possibly depends a bit on the amount of seepage that's coming down it.
either grade wouldn't be completely wrong.

In reply to Robert Durran:

That's not a bad idea for Warfarin, splitting the pitches lower. It's a bit of a rope-dragger doing it in a oner.

In a world where trad was not threatened by sport, I'd advocate a bolted belay where the poor peg one is...but in the real world, rat race in a oner is the best option.

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:


Possibly but then the 10th 5c move should feel harder than that next move so it's probably not too important.

In reply to Gary Latter:

Hiya Garry,

Only thing I can think of is in regards to Nirvana Wall on Far East Buttress on Aonach Dubh. I found the first pitch quite tricky for Severe (4c maybe) as I went direct rather than traversing in from the left or right and the spike is very wobbly, UKC votes seem to concur with HS also. I was only leading HS/VS at the time however but I suppose that's what routes are graded for. Thought the top pitch was worthy of 4b, that big crack through after the roof was pure joy to climb and really well protected though, one of the best at its grade and style in Scotland?

In reply to Gary Latter:

Ardverikie: HS 4b sounds right to me. Splitting the first pitch is just bit more 'gentle' getting into the climb - you could at least give the option.

Recess Route: I guess the chimney is VDiff, if you're used to chimneying - Severe, if you're not. The move past the overhang on last pitch, is pretty tough for a VDiff (I went left - maybe right is easier?). 'High in the grade??'

Will do Savage Slit some other day...

In reply to Robert Durran:

P132 - July Crack on Buchaille Etive Mor - [As mentioned above] E1 5a rather than HVS, tricky pulling over the bulge and quite bold. Seemed better to do as one long pitch as well.

P259 - Crack Attack - Glen Nevis - Following the crack over the bulge I though was 6a rather than 5c.

P329 - Lady Charlotte - Cave Crag - Similar to Warfarin and Rat Race, its described in the book as 2 pitches but most do it as one long pitch which is better. Also thought it was worth 4 stars, on par with Rat Race.

P386 - Witch's Tooth - Glen Clova - Awhile since I done it, but thought it was worth E2 as its a fair bit harder than any other clova E1 (Red Wall, Vindaloo etc)

P389 - Roman Candle - Glen Clova - Probably worth E4 6a as its quite a bit more sustained than the one move wonder E3 'Just Another Sparkler'.

P423 - Pink Wall - Ballater - HVS 5a instead of VS 5a.

In reply to CMcBain:


I'd second that. My partner also thought similar as well.


Very similar routes I'd say, although maybe slightly harder. Stonking gear and short. If it's E4 surely its at the very low end of the grade. Found the top out on Just Another Sparkler harder I seem to remember. Harder moves on Empire of the Sun and that's after much more climbing, although its probably high E4. To round up, f*ck knows.

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

Yeah, it's not a huge deal at hard E3 or soft E4, just noticed it got E4 on ukc when I logged it awhile ago. Have still to do Empire so not sure where that fits into the Clova grading spectrum, although have heard it's quite pokey!

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

Hey Martin, Would be a lot easier if got this character 'f*ck knows' to sort out all the discrepancies!? Does he post here under a pseudonym - couldn't find a registered user on here?

In reply to CMcBain:

Hi Callum

Many thanks for these. There was a reprint of Volume 1 back in 2012 - July Crack given E1 5b & Crackattack E3 6a in that version. Any opinions on 5a or 5b for July Crack? It's possible to finish left of the crack at the top of Crackattack at 5c, but I've always followed the crack, which definitely feels like 6a.

Agree, makes a lot of sense to describe Lady Charlotte in single pitch, finishing up headwall, as for Voie de L'Amie - the way majority of people climb it, as opposed to that followed on the first ascent. Agree, worth 4* this way.

Witch's Tooth seems to divide people's opinion. If E2, 5b or 5c?

Aware some of the better routes in Glen Clova underrated. The Red Wall is ***, but 5c (with overhead protection) starting as described, will describe easier left start also. Vindaloo is also *** E1 5b, but only 30m (not 45!). Placed new abseil thread & maillon at top recently. Also rope sling & maillon at top of The Red Wall - 25m abseil.

Agree, will upgrade Roman Candle to E4 6a, feels harder than adjacent Just Another Sparkler.

Will go with consensus and upgrade Pink Wall to HVS.

Thanks again.

In reply to Gary Latter:

I thought hard E1 for Witch's Tooth. The crux is hard 5b but well protected as far as I recall.

In reply to Gary Latter:

I thought E1 5a for July Crack as it was quite bold, but in hindsight 5b is fair as its probably similar if not harder to other E1 5b's thereabouts (Engineers Crack etc). Would maybe mention in the description it's a little bit bold, or atleast I thought it was!

Would agree that both Vindaloo and Red Wall are worth 3 stars. Witch's Tooth is on the border between E1 and E2, quite sustained albeit well protected climbing close to the ground. I reckon E2 5b on the low end of the grade would be fair and fit in with other routes around the same grade at Clova.

Look forward to the reprint, my copy is quite tattered and missing quite a few pages now - hopefully there's some dry weather in Scotland to coincide with the release...

Cheers

In reply to Gary Latter:

Polldubh, Styx Butress, Abseil in place down in right from the top of Right Wall, on small pine tree.
Binnein Shuas, Blaeberry Grooves, Abseil in place on jutting block to the right at top of first pitch. First pitch would get 3 stars anywhere else.
Glencoe, East Face of Aonach Dubh. Second pitch of Curving Crack, excellent climbing but poor protection after first 3 metres.
Charlie P.

In reply to clp123:

Thanks for this Charlie. Enjoying your retirement?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I would say Severe for Savage Slit. 1 or 2 bits are quite tricky for v-diff and the whole thing is quite steep and sustained.

In reply to Gary Latter:

Just been to Creag Nam Fitheach. I think a little more warning of the amount of bushwhacking required to get to the routes wouldn't go amiss. Also, maybe worth mentioning a wire brush would be helpful. (I know this is a standard for many climber's kit bag, but I was actually expecting this crag to be quite clean based on the UKC and guidebook description.)

America cannot be ** in its current condition - the first 1/3 of the route is entirely made of moss and slime and it's only 6 or 7 m right of 8, not 10.

Crucifixion Crack I think should be 6a, and ** but maybe *** if you're in a more adventurous spirit than we were?

Crystal Vision is obscured by carapace of moss, at first I couldn't even envision how to get to the crack proper, then I brushed some of the quilt away and thought...hmmm, maybe next time after an abseil and 30 mins brushing!

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Oh, and the Clearances in Glencoe. Now definitely E4 as there are no pegs and the gear is poor. I took a fall on the "bold wall" due to irredeemably cold hands and pump. I doubt anything but a totem would have held the fall...
Some spray/noise/bloggage here:

http://scottishclimbers.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/the-clearences.html

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Thanks for these Alasdair

Surprised that Creag nam Fhitheach is dirty, guess that just shows state of Scottish climbing. Most folk out bouldering or on sport crags...., though it is tucked away in the middle of nowhere.
Ian Taylor had said Clearances E4 few years back, after disintegration of the pegs.

Over in West coast at moment, checking out some other obscure wee crags in the baking sun - Rannoch Wall, Etive Slabs & Garbh Bheinn so far. Rest day today, taking crag shots in Glen Nevis & exploring the fleshpots of Fort William - aye right!
Thanks again.

In reply to Wicamoi:
We climbed on South Buttress in Glen Lednock few days ago:

Carcase Wall (2* in new Highland Outcrops South guide) is pretty filthy, with bit of a jungle bash on first pitch to get to the main upper 2 pitches. Didn't find a 'mossy slab' leading up to the base of the steeper 2nd pitch - was belayed on large rowan about 10m down and left of 2nd pitch - anyone gone this way? Climbed open groove to couple of aspens at 10m, following the line in topo. Top pitch finishes further right than marked - at same point as Central Groove - new sling & maillon now in situ on birch at top (50m just reaches base, though probably best split by 2nd abseil from tree 5m down & left from base of Central Groove).
Cleaned Central Groove. Was intending to replace pegs, but there are two fairly decent looking pegs in the upper groove. Trundled couple loose blocks from ledge at base of main groove & cleaned lower section (common to Gabrielle). Would agree with E4 6a, and probably worth a star.