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Sheffield Adventure Film Festival is celebrating its 10th birthday this month (March 20-22). The weekend long festival – presented by technical outdoor equipment specialists Rab and supporting Sheffield's Helipad Appeal – now attracts more than three thousand visitors. Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7125
In reply to UKC Articles:
Win a £200 Rab MENS jacket. Would have been nice to have known that before getting all the way to the small print. Thanks, what an awesome prize.
Win a £200 Rab MENS jacket. Would have been nice to have known that before getting all the way to the small print. Thanks, what an awesome prize.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Yes, an ill-fitting garment is always my first choice for thermal regulation.
Yes, an ill-fitting garment is always my first choice for thermal regulation.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Rab haven't made a women's version yet, but if you look at other manufacturer's offering (Montane for example) a lot of the fast and light stuff isn't made in women's version, economies of scale partly but also they're not fitted jackets, they're made for backing off, so durability is pants, sacrificed for weight.
They're described as slim fit so no good for the portly gentleman, but again a lot of that stuff is, Raidlight, for example, seems to be aimed at 6 footers who weigh about 9 stone.
I guess manufacturers could describe it all as unisex and let people take their chances.
Rab haven't made a women's version yet, but if you look at other manufacturer's offering (Montane for example) a lot of the fast and light stuff isn't made in women's version, economies of scale partly but also they're not fitted jackets, they're made for backing off, so durability is pants, sacrificed for weight.
They're described as slim fit so no good for the portly gentleman, but again a lot of that stuff is, Raidlight, for example, seems to be aimed at 6 footers who weigh about 9 stone.
I guess manufacturers could describe it all as unisex and let people take their chances.
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In reply to winhill:
I fully accept that the clothing any company chooses to make will be determined by market forces, I'm just really disappointed that this competition doesn't offer an alternative jacket (or prize) for women. The fact is that it ISN'T a unisex prize, it's designed for men.
I fully accept that the clothing any company chooses to make will be determined by market forces, I'm just really disappointed that this competition doesn't offer an alternative jacket (or prize) for women. The fact is that it ISN'T a unisex prize, it's designed for men.
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In reply to Alyson:
That's a supposition rather than a fact. As winhill says, other similar products from other manufacturers are designed to be light, and not specifically designed for men - indeed I gave one Montane to to my partner as it fitted her far better than it did me. I've not seen the RAB version but I imagine that the same applies. I don't know why they describe it as "men's" rather than unisex - possibly because their website is designed that way, all clothing is either for Men or for Women.
> The fact is that it ISN'T a unisex prize, it's designed for men.
That's a supposition rather than a fact. As winhill says, other similar products from other manufacturers are designed to be light, and not specifically designed for men - indeed I gave one Montane to to my partner as it fitted her far better than it did me. I've not seen the RAB version but I imagine that the same applies. I don't know why they describe it as "men's" rather than unisex - possibly because their website is designed that way, all clothing is either for Men or for Women.
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
It's hardly supposition that it's designed for men when Rab describe it as being "available in a men's cut only"! In contrast you "imagine" that it might fit both men and women - which one of us is making suppositions again?
I've tried men's 'small' jackets on and they're always much too big for me across the shoulders.
> That's a supposition rather than a fact.
It's hardly supposition that it's designed for men when Rab describe it as being "available in a men's cut only"! In contrast you "imagine" that it might fit both men and women - which one of us is making suppositions again?
I've tried men's 'small' jackets on and they're always much too big for me across the shoulders.
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In reply to Alyson:
As stated before, Rab are offering the jacket as a free prize to promote their new hardshell. Rab aren't obliged to offer an alternative product for women. If you didn't read the small print then you really have no basis for complaining.
They probably don't make the jacket in a woman's cut as they don't know whether it will sell yet - it's all about supply and demand. It's just business, so if you don't like it, I suggest you don't enter competitions...
As stated before, Rab are offering the jacket as a free prize to promote their new hardshell. Rab aren't obliged to offer an alternative product for women. If you didn't read the small print then you really have no basis for complaining.
They probably don't make the jacket in a woman's cut as they don't know whether it will sell yet - it's all about supply and demand. It's just business, so if you don't like it, I suggest you don't enter competitions...
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In reply to blackreaver:
True, but it does seem rather short-sighted and very poor PR. How hard could it have been to offer a women's alternative?
> As stated before, Rab are offering the jacket as a free prize to promote their new hardshell. Rab aren't obliged to offer an alternative product for women.
True, but it does seem rather short-sighted and very poor PR. How hard could it have been to offer a women's alternative?
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In reply to blackreaver:
Err, I did read the small print. If you look at my first post you'll see my quibble was with having to get that far before discovering how noninclusive the prize is. Still, it's always refreshing to be told 'don't enter competitions' as if that somehow solves the problem.
Err, I did read the small print. If you look at my first post you'll see my quibble was with having to get that far before discovering how noninclusive the prize is. Still, it's always refreshing to be told 'don't enter competitions' as if that somehow solves the problem.
In reply to Alyson:
If you did read the small print, then why did you enter the competition if you weren't happy with the prize being a Men's jacket?
All the time I see adverts for 'women in mountaineering film festival' and I don't complain about it, so I don't really see what the problem is with Rab only offering a Men's jacket to promote their new hardshell.
If you did read the small print, then why did you enter the competition if you weren't happy with the prize being a Men's jacket?
All the time I see adverts for 'women in mountaineering film festival' and I don't complain about it, so I don't really see what the problem is with Rab only offering a Men's jacket to promote their new hardshell.
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In reply to Alyson:
While I agree it would be nice for Rab to make a women's cut, it's a bit more complicated than that.
My wife has various bits of outdoor gear (belay jacket, rucksack) in the "men's" cut because the women's ones are too narrow across the shoulders. Other manufacturers she can't fit because the "women's" fit is for one particular shape of woman, not the large variety of different shapes that women can be. (Whereas men tend to be, basically, a variation on a cylinder.) This seems to be a common complaint amongst my outdoorsy female friends.
> It's hardly supposition that it's designed for men when Rab describe it as being "available in a men's cut only"! In contrast you "imagine" that it might fit both men and women - which one of us is making suppositions again?
> I've tried men's 'small' jackets on and they're always much too big for me across the shoulders.
While I agree it would be nice for Rab to make a women's cut, it's a bit more complicated than that.
My wife has various bits of outdoor gear (belay jacket, rucksack) in the "men's" cut because the women's ones are too narrow across the shoulders. Other manufacturers she can't fit because the "women's" fit is for one particular shape of woman, not the large variety of different shapes that women can be. (Whereas men tend to be, basically, a variation on a cylinder.) This seems to be a common complaint amongst my outdoorsy female friends.
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In reply to blackreaver:
This is just moronic.
> All the time I see adverts for 'women in mountaineering film festival' and I don't complain about it, so I don't really see what the problem is with Rab only offering a Men's jacket to promote their new hardshell.
This is just moronic.
In reply to UKC Articles:
yea, people that insist there's nothing wrong need to get a grip. Maybe it's not up there with the great evils of the world, and perhaps it's at least in part a product of market forces. However, a large film festival advertising itself in a way that alienates (or at least discourages) female participation is pretty poor form. these sports struggle with female participation enough as it is.
yea, people that insist there's nothing wrong need to get a grip. Maybe it's not up there with the great evils of the world, and perhaps it's at least in part a product of market forces. However, a large film festival advertising itself in a way that alienates (or at least discourages) female participation is pretty poor form. these sports struggle with female participation enough as it is.
Post edited at 17:12
In reply to climbwhenready:
Just to clarify, I think the lack of women's outdoor gear on the market is a big problem. But sometimes it can be the case that "men's" is "unisex".
Just to clarify, I think the lack of women's outdoor gear on the market is a big problem. But sometimes it can be the case that "men's" is "unisex".
In reply to climbwhenready:
We all know the process by which they separate gear into men's and women's right?
They take a segment of the target demographic (as many as they can usually ~5000-10,000) in this case climbers likely to spend £200 on a waterproof (read: fanatics) then they measure their bodies, they then take the average of those measurements and use them to create a "average/general cut".
Then based on what sexes the survey was done on they either label it male or female.
It is likely a male jacket will be a poor fit on most females of average shape and size.
The reason they haven't supplied this jacket for women has got to be a sales driven one they think women are less likely to buy it so it hasn't been manufactured in a women's cut therefore they cant offer it.
However this is all besides the point, they have many other jackets for women, why not offer them as a prize? even if they aren't as good it would still be a reasonable gesture.
We all know the process by which they separate gear into men's and women's right?
They take a segment of the target demographic (as many as they can usually ~5000-10,000) in this case climbers likely to spend £200 on a waterproof (read: fanatics) then they measure their bodies, they then take the average of those measurements and use them to create a "average/general cut".
Then based on what sexes the survey was done on they either label it male or female.
It is likely a male jacket will be a poor fit on most females of average shape and size.
The reason they haven't supplied this jacket for women has got to be a sales driven one they think women are less likely to buy it so it hasn't been manufactured in a women's cut therefore they cant offer it.
However this is all besides the point, they have many other jackets for women, why not offer them as a prize? even if they aren't as good it would still be a reasonable gesture.
In reply to Sciguy:
Really? That doesn't seem likely to me. Surely it would be far cheaper to just use data from an anthropometric survey company.
> We all know the process by which they separate gear into men's and women's right?
> They take a segment of the target demographic (as many as they can usually ~5000-10,000) in this case climbers likely to spend £200 on a waterproof (read: fanatics) then they measure their bodies, they then take the average of those measurements and use them to create a "average/general cut".
Really? That doesn't seem likely to me. Surely it would be far cheaper to just use data from an anthropometric survey company.
In reply to Sciguy:
But their target is not likely to be average, if it's aimed at distance runners, mountain marathoners, ultras, then the body shape tends to be much more anodyne. Lots of running gear is like this (tall, thin). It's just possible (no data to back this up) that the variation in the target segment is less between females than males, so a higher percentage of the target could be met with women rather than men.
I expect Rab want the focus to be on their latest thing, plus of course if you offered the women a pastel blue anorak they might be equally alienated.
> It is likely a male jacket will be a poor fit on most females of average shape and size.
But their target is not likely to be average, if it's aimed at distance runners, mountain marathoners, ultras, then the body shape tends to be much more anodyne. Lots of running gear is like this (tall, thin). It's just possible (no data to back this up) that the variation in the target segment is less between females than males, so a higher percentage of the target could be met with women rather than men.
> However this is all besides the point, they have many other jackets for women, why not offer them as a prize? even if they aren't as good it would still be a reasonable gesture.
I expect Rab want the focus to be on their latest thing, plus of course if you offered the women a pastel blue anorak they might be equally alienated.
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In reply to climbwhenready:
Can you think of an outdoor activity that is impacted by a lack of women specific gear?
> Just to clarify, I think the lack of women's outdoor gear on the market is a big problem.
Can you think of an outdoor activity that is impacted by a lack of women specific gear?
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In reply to winhill:
It's a competition - a pure PR exercise.
"Not only do we not make this product for women but we don't make anything equivalent that we could offer instead because we are entirely failing to acknowledge female participation or interest in adventure sports" makes for fairly crap promotional literature.
I can see there are some concepts you are struggling with a bit, so here's a friendly heads-up. Being offered a piece of outdoor kit in a particular colour of fabric does not make a woman as "equally alienated" as not catering for her at all.
> I expect Rab want the focus to be on their latest thing, plus of course if you offered the women a pastel blue anorak they might be equally alienated.
It's a competition - a pure PR exercise.
"Not only do we not make this product for women but we don't make anything equivalent that we could offer instead because we are entirely failing to acknowledge female participation or interest in adventure sports" makes for fairly crap promotional literature.
I can see there are some concepts you are struggling with a bit, so here's a friendly heads-up. Being offered a piece of outdoor kit in a particular colour of fabric does not make a woman as "equally alienated" as not catering for her at all.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Lissa (ShAFF PR) here (posting on Matt's account as I'm not I'm a climber myself)…
Sorry if anyone’s disappointed by Rab only having a men’s cut on the jacket. It wasn’t a calculated move to annoy or alienate women. We were going to just do a prize of ShAFF tickets but our title sponsor Rab last week kindly said they could provide a new Flashpoint jacket but that at the current time they’ve only got a men’s cut available.
Having been (rightly) criticised for the past couple of years about the lack of women on the big screen at SHAFF, Matt (the Festival Director) and myself have put a big effort into sourcing more films featuring women or made by women. ShAFF’s a small operation (just me and Matt on year round with a load of amazing volunteers who help us pull it together). It’s Rab coming on board as title sponsor that enables us to make the festival viable.
This is what we’re doing to encourage more women in adventure film:
- We’ve doubled the number of films with women behind and/or in front of the camera.
- We have created a new Best Women In Adventure Film prize.
- We have a new Women in Adventure Film Judge.
- Half the films in the trailer feature films made by or starring female athletes.
- We’re running the Women in Mountain Adventure Film Competition with the BMC, Women Climb and Sport Is Beautiful / Women’s Sports Trust with £850 in prize money and a spot at ShAFF for the winner. We have 14 entries.
- The mezzanine level of the Workstation Lowepro Adventure Photography Exhibition will be devoted to women in adventure photography and Lowepro have sponsored a Women in Adventure category in the ShAFF Single Shot photo competition.
- We’re launching a Women in Adventure Network with 6 panellists including Rab athlete Squash Falconer with an audience of invited guests to discuss how to improve female representation at the festival and more widely in the industry.
- We’re working with a local school and have invited 5 students to come and interview our panellists to tie in with their work on the Sport England #ThisGirlCan campaign.
Find out more: http://www.shaff.co.uk/shaff-fringe/women-in-adventure-network/
It’s not perfect but we’re trying really hard. If you’d like to get involved, or you’d just like to shout at me about this, drop me a line. I’m lissa@heason.net My phone number’s on the ShAFF website. It’s always the criticisms that push you to try hard and do better next time round and I used to work in politics so I’ve got a thick skin.
Meanwhile, believe me, I simply took the view as a female runner and cyclist that I wear loads of men’s kit and I’d be more than happy to win a £200 jacket in a men’s cut and it made for a better prize than just offering ShAFF tickets. Rab are a great, local company, founded in Sheffield, based in Derbyshire and really nice people. We’re really proud to work with them.
PS Dan Thompson, Marketing Manager for Rab adds: ‘The Flashpoint Jacket is a very technical piece which is unlikely to have mass market appeal and as such is currently only available in two colours and a men’s model (a women’s model is in the pipeline). Offering it as a prize was never meant to alienate anyone and we are sorry for any offense caused. We are more than happy to supply an alternative women’s product of the winner’s choice (with the same MSRP) if requested.’
Lissa (ShAFF PR) here (posting on Matt's account as I'm not I'm a climber myself)…
Sorry if anyone’s disappointed by Rab only having a men’s cut on the jacket. It wasn’t a calculated move to annoy or alienate women. We were going to just do a prize of ShAFF tickets but our title sponsor Rab last week kindly said they could provide a new Flashpoint jacket but that at the current time they’ve only got a men’s cut available.
Having been (rightly) criticised for the past couple of years about the lack of women on the big screen at SHAFF, Matt (the Festival Director) and myself have put a big effort into sourcing more films featuring women or made by women. ShAFF’s a small operation (just me and Matt on year round with a load of amazing volunteers who help us pull it together). It’s Rab coming on board as title sponsor that enables us to make the festival viable.
This is what we’re doing to encourage more women in adventure film:
- We’ve doubled the number of films with women behind and/or in front of the camera.
- We have created a new Best Women In Adventure Film prize.
- We have a new Women in Adventure Film Judge.
- Half the films in the trailer feature films made by or starring female athletes.
- We’re running the Women in Mountain Adventure Film Competition with the BMC, Women Climb and Sport Is Beautiful / Women’s Sports Trust with £850 in prize money and a spot at ShAFF for the winner. We have 14 entries.
- The mezzanine level of the Workstation Lowepro Adventure Photography Exhibition will be devoted to women in adventure photography and Lowepro have sponsored a Women in Adventure category in the ShAFF Single Shot photo competition.
- We’re launching a Women in Adventure Network with 6 panellists including Rab athlete Squash Falconer with an audience of invited guests to discuss how to improve female representation at the festival and more widely in the industry.
- We’re working with a local school and have invited 5 students to come and interview our panellists to tie in with their work on the Sport England #ThisGirlCan campaign.
Find out more: http://www.shaff.co.uk/shaff-fringe/women-in-adventure-network/
It’s not perfect but we’re trying really hard. If you’d like to get involved, or you’d just like to shout at me about this, drop me a line. I’m lissa@heason.net My phone number’s on the ShAFF website. It’s always the criticisms that push you to try hard and do better next time round and I used to work in politics so I’ve got a thick skin.
Meanwhile, believe me, I simply took the view as a female runner and cyclist that I wear loads of men’s kit and I’d be more than happy to win a £200 jacket in a men’s cut and it made for a better prize than just offering ShAFF tickets. Rab are a great, local company, founded in Sheffield, based in Derbyshire and really nice people. We’re really proud to work with them.
PS Dan Thompson, Marketing Manager for Rab adds: ‘The Flashpoint Jacket is a very technical piece which is unlikely to have mass market appeal and as such is currently only available in two colours and a men’s model (a women’s model is in the pipeline). Offering it as a prize was never meant to alienate anyone and we are sorry for any offense caused. We are more than happy to supply an alternative women’s product of the winner’s choice (with the same MSRP) if requested.’
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In reply to MattH:
Thanks Lissa, that's a lovely response and I had noticed just how much ShAFF has done to be more inclusive. I think that's why the prize surprised me a little! I say that as someone lucky enough to have won prizes in previous years
And thanks very much for the offer from Rab to match the prize if asked to do so. That's all I was hoping for, I never meant to get dragged into a discussion of how awkwardly shaped women (apparently) are.
Thanks Lissa, that's a lovely response and I had noticed just how much ShAFF has done to be more inclusive. I think that's why the prize surprised me a little! I say that as someone lucky enough to have won prizes in previous years
And thanks very much for the offer from Rab to match the prize if asked to do so. That's all I was hoping for, I never meant to get dragged into a discussion of how awkwardly shaped women (apparently) are.
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In reply to MattH:
I find it bizarre that Rab's PR didn't pick up on this and just do this in the first place, particularly the (very welcome) lengths ShAFF are going to this year to be more inclusive.
> PS Dan Thompson, Marketing Manager for Rab adds: ‘The Flashpoint Jacket is a very technical piece which is unlikely to have mass market appeal and as such is currently only available in two colours and a men’s model (a women’s model is in the pipeline). Offering it as a prize was never meant to alienate anyone and we are sorry for any offense caused. We are more than happy to supply an alternative women’s product of the winner’s choice (with the same MSRP) if requested.’
I find it bizarre that Rab's PR didn't pick up on this and just do this in the first place, particularly the (very welcome) lengths ShAFF are going to this year to be more inclusive.
In reply to planetmarshall:
>Surely it would be far cheaper to just use data from an anthropometric survey company.
Actually, that is a far more likely, good point.
>Surely it would be far cheaper to just use data from an anthropometric survey company.
Actually, that is a far more likely, good point.
Post edited at 14:56
In reply to Alyson:
Thanks Alyson. That's kind and much appreciated. Glad you've won prizes in the past as well. Have to say, I'm one of those people who never so much as wins a bottle of wine in a village fete raffle! Have a lovely weekend. Lissa
Thanks Alyson. That's kind and much appreciated. Glad you've won prizes in the past as well. Have to say, I'm one of those people who never so much as wins a bottle of wine in a village fete raffle! Have a lovely weekend. Lissa
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