UKC

NEWS: VIDEO: The Black Cuillin

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 UKC News 09 Dec 2014
Cullin Ridge, 2 kbIn this excellent video from Nadir Khan we see mountain guide Paul Tattersall take us along the classic Cullin Ridge on Skye.

"The Cuillin Ridge is the most celebrated and fearsome of all of the Britain's mountain ridges. Difficult route finding, unremitting steepness and exposure and a degree of technical climbing set it apart from anything else in the UK."

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69356

 James Edwards 09 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:

Thank you for making this short film; I greatly enjoyed it.
It feels like a long time since I was on the ridge.

"I must go up to the ridge today,
To the lonely ridge on Skye,
And all I ask is a clear mountain view,
And a route to climb her by."

James e
 Nadir khan 09 Dec 2014
In reply to James Edwards:

Thanks James, glad you liked it and thanks for taking the time to comment
 Scomuir 09 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:

Nice film, really enjoyed it, but just want to point out that Paul is not the only person to take a mountain bike to the top of all of the Munros. He's possibly the first, but definitely not the only one. My cousin and his mate did a round of the Munros in 1990 or 1991 (I can't remember which year, but definitely one or the other!) with their mountain bikes, obviously including Skye. There's a cracking photo in my Aunts living room of the abseil off the Inaccessible Pinnacle.

Given that there's no specific records kept of this type of thing, then how does anyone know who's done it or not? It's entirely probable that there's been others since...
 James Rushforth Global Crag Moderator 09 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:

Nice little video Nadir, looks like entertaining shooting conditions. I hope you didn't suffer any long term ligament damage!

Need to get to Skye...
 ChrisBrooke 09 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:

Nice work Nadir.
Clauso 09 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:

Ta. I enjoyed that... It passed a happy few minutes, while chained to my desk during my lunchtime, anyhow.
In reply to Scomuir:

Thanks for that, I've amended the text. I said he was probably the only one because, to be frank, I couldn't believe anyone else would have bothered. Mainland Munros you can ride? Sure, there's an obvious attraction. Cuillin peaks where you'll be carting it on your shoulder most of the day (Danny MacAskill aside)? I'm not so sure.
 Scomuir 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

No bother Dan. I know the article said "probably", The film states is as a definite fact, when it should have something like "to our knowledge" added to it.

I find this a lot in skiing. Many people seem to think that just because they haven't heard of something, or found it on the internet, it then makes the leap to being a "fact". Just because I don't know of anyone who's taken a space hopper along the ridge, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
 Dave Hewitt 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Scomuir:

> I find this a lot in skiing. Many people seem to think that just because they haven't heard of something, or found it on the internet, it then makes the leap to being a "fact". Just because I don't know of anyone who's taken a space hopper along the ridge, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Agreed - it's a general problem and it annoys me too. In terms of my own area of hill-list research, there are considerable numbers of people who decline to put their name forward to "the authorities" when they've finished a round of something. That doesn't stop people saying there have been x numbers of Munroists or y numbers of Wainwrighteers when x and y are merely the numbers in the published lists.

A few years ago I came across someone who had completed 11 rounds of Munros, unlisted. The known "record" is Steven Fallon's 15 rounds, but this person - or some other megabagger - could well be ahead of them, so even in the case of Fallon's remarkable number of rounds I always try and say "the highest known total" or something along those lines.
 planetmarshall 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> A few years ago I came across someone who had completed 11 rounds of Munros, unlisted. The known "record" is Steven Fallon's 15 rounds...

Well, to be fair, there is a reason it's called a 'record'.

 Dave Hewitt 09 Dec 2014
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Well, to be fair, there is a reason it's called a 'record'.

But if this unknown person has now done 16 Munro rounds, wouldn't they have the "record"? Or if someone had got along the Cuillin ridge faster than Finlay Wild's very fast time but had kept quiet about it? I guess what I'm saying is that I'm wary of using the term "record" (or similar things such as "most", or "highest number") in this kind of hill context because there are a lot of below-the-radar people out there.

I was even wary of saying that Rob Woodall and Eddie Dealtry were the first Marilyn completers when they got up the Kilda stacks in October. They very likely were, but you never know...
 planetmarshall 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> But if this unknown person has now done 16 Munro rounds, wouldn't they have the "record"?

Not if it's not recorded, no, hence the term.

 Mike Lates 09 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:

I've got loads of enquiries from MTB folk following on from Danny MacAskill's video; know who to send them to now
 Dave Hewitt 09 Dec 2014
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Not if it's not recorded, no, hence the term.

Ah, I see what you mean. But I don't think "record" and "recorded" are the same thing. (Have spent all day/week subediting a dull business supplement, so am thinking about meanings and all that.)

What of situations where there are two or more different lists covering the same achievements? There are at least two published lists of Wainwright rounds, for example, with different people in them. In one the highest number of rounds is the 44 of Stephen Moore; in the other (can't find it offhand) I'm not sure Mr Moore appears - so are there rival record-holders in situations such as that?

It's a bit like darts or boxing, I guess, except that here there's also a whole group of people who aren't in any of the organisations but who could still have done top-of-the-table things.

Actually, in hill terms is not one common version of this the Bob Graham Round, where there are rules re being accompanied etc but plenty of people don't have any truck with them? Was Billy Bland accompanied when he did his very fast round? If not, then maybe some BGR listing people say he's not the record holder. I dunno - that needs someone who knows more about fell running than I do to comment.
 BALD EAGLE 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Nadir khan:

Excellent stuff Nadir great film! Cheers Dave
 Michael Gordon 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

An interesting discussion. The obvious parallel with climbing is in the case of 'new' routes. In a few cases the proof of them being new is things like a small loose rock blocking a jug which would surely have been removed if there had been a previous ascent, but mostly it comes from an educated assessment based on the nature and difficulty of the route, often with the reasoning "it's unlikely to be done without being recorded".

One can't help but wonder that centuries ago a local lad might have nipped up the likes of Bruach na Frithe, many years prior to the first recognised ascent.

The above is of course totally different to rounds of the munros - tons of folk do this and don't bother to tell the SMC. As for taking a bike up the Cuillin peaks, I'm also surprised that anyone had actually bothered prior to this year!
 petestack 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Scomuir:

> My cousin and his mate did a round of the Munros in 1990 or 1991 (I can't remember which year, but definitely one or the other!) with their mountain bikes, obviously including Skye.

I remember Noel Williams assisting a pair of MTB Munroists with the Cuillin Ridge... was it them or someone else?
 Michael Hood 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Michael Gordon: In sports like athletics it is very unlikely that a record is unrecorded - e.g. chances of somebody running even sub 10 secs for a measured 100m without it being known are very slim.

In activities like climbing/walking etc there are many who don't record their achievements (beyond maybe a personal log) so there is a much greater chance of the record being better than the best recorded.

However I think the likelihood of this is going down as society becomes more sound-bite 15-mins of fame like and the number of modest hermits decreases.





 Michael Gordon 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Michael Hood:

Of course for running, long jump etc some athletes have achieved their best times/distances when not competing. So that is the distinction there - although something might have been done (a record broken) the athlete wouldn't hold the record officially.
llechwedd 09 Dec 2014
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Not if it's not recorded, no, hence the term.

So does that mean I haven't got the 'record' for carrying a long piece of inhaled noodle in my nasal cavity to the summit of all the Cuillin Munros ?

Seriously though, a beautiful film and a joy to watch. I'm still smiling after getting my Cuillin fix from it. Thanks Nadir and Paul.
 Dave Hewitt 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Michael Hood:

> In sports like athletics it is very unlikely that a record is unrecorded - e.g. chances of somebody running even sub 10 secs for a measured 100m without it being known are very slim.

> In activities like climbing/walking etc there are many who don't record their achievements (beyond maybe a personal log) so there is a much greater chance of the record being better than the best recorded.

> However I think the likelihood of this is going down as society becomes more sound-bite 15-mins of fame like and the number of modest hermits decreases.

Agreed - that's the basic distinction I think, between formal sports eg athletics and more general "recreational" stuff eg hillgoing in its various forms. Mind you, I suspect the more that the soundbite / 15-mins stuff takes hold (and especially the me-me-me thing that you get on various other hill forums where people seem to want a round of applause - and often get it - for going up Ben Lomond on a summer's day), it could well be that the number of modest hermits / cards-close-to-chest curmudgeons actually increases, or at least that they become more entrenched.

Re the hill-round "record" thing, I was thinking about this as I trudged across to Sainsbury's in the windy dark just now. The problematic stuff would be if say Steven Fallon had chosen not to register his 15 Munro rounds with the SMC. No one doubts he's done these, and he's fairly well-known as he works as a pro guide these days and has a popular website. But if he wasn't in the "official" list then would Stewart Logan and Robin Howie, who are next in line with ten rounds each, be widely regarded as the people with the most rounds? I don't think so - surely it would still be Steven Fallon. So to an extent he's done the SMC a favour by choosing to stay inside their tent.
In reply to UKC News:

Lovely film thanks for posting that one I really enjoyed it!!
 Scomuir 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

I hadn't intended for this to detract from what is a great wee film, and the discussion maybe would have been better on another thread, but maybe a little late for that now.

With climbing, I view it as first "recorded" ascent, as it's the first time someone has bothered to record it. I've recorded climbs that I suspect have almost certainly been done in the past, but as they hadn't been recorded, I thought fair enough, as there is a means of recording them. I suspect no one has been keeping track of Munro rounds by mountain bike, or indeed, by spacehopper, but I guess they would fall under the the banner of Munroists. It is obviously up to the individuals if they wish to record it with the "official list keeper" or not, which in the case of my cousin, he's simply not that bothered from what I can gather.

There was an interesting discussion a year or so ago on a Facebook group about who had done the first descent of Number 2 Gully on Ben Nevis from the top (rather than from below the cornice, which was done in the 1980's). It seemed like it had become "fact" because a pair wrote it in the CIC hut book after their descent in the early 2000's, and a liftie at Aonach Mor they chatted to sometime afterwards hadn't heard of any descents, so that was that. I seemed to be in the minority in thinking that this wasn't the most robust means defining history, for want of a better term. Turns out that it had been done a few years beforehand by another pair from the top, and that's just what's known about at this point in time.

Now it seems to have a different slant on it with some, and at least in part, claims are made to appeal to sponsors. Wild claims of first descents, to first descents without the use of a rope, to first filmed descents have been made! I'm "guilty", if you like, of filming my descents and putting them online, as well as publishing details of the lines, but am under no illusion that any of them are first descents. There's no way of knowing anyway!

p.s. what's the record for the longest time taken to complete a round of Munros. I started in 1983, and somehow haven't finished them yet, despite having less than a dozen to go for some time...
 Scomuir 09 Dec 2014
In reply to petestack:

The more I think about it, the more I think it was 1990. It was definitely after the round by Paul, as they knew about it. If I remember correctly, a few of his mates from the Lochaber MRT helped out that day. Don't know if Noel was involved or not.
 petestack 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Scomuir:

> I hadn't intended for this to detract from what is a great wee film

Yep, a great wee film, and I should have said so too!

> p.s. what's the record for the longest time taken to complete a round of Munros. I started in 1983, and somehow haven't finished them yet, despite having less than a dozen to go for some time...

Sure it's far longer than either of us, but think I've got you beat so far... started with Ben Lomond sometime late 1970s and scheduled to finish (Munros, Tops and deleted Munros/Tops) on Slioch May 2015.

 Scomuir 09 Dec 2014
In reply to petestack:

I wasn't being serious about the longest round Slioch will be a fantastic one to finish on.
 Tim Lowe 09 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:
Good to see Tatt still doing amazing things.
Tim Lowe
 Dave Hewitt 09 Dec 2014
In reply to Scomuir:
> I hadn't intended for this to detract from what is a great wee film, and the discussion maybe would have been better on another thread, but maybe a little late for that now.

Me neither, sorry. It's a great film, as others have said. That In Pinn downclimb looks mental - and it's interesting to see Paul T make short work of the direct start to the east ridge, given that ordinary mortals, me included, tend to do the join-from-the-side thing.

Incidentally, re his 1989 bike round, the end-dates were: start on Beinn Bhuidhe 27 April, finish on Ben Hope 16 July. It seems to have been the eighth known continuous and/or self-propelled round (or seventh if the joint Mike Cawthorne / Dave Hughes one from 1986 is counted as one), although there could well have been more and it's an inexact science anyway given the scope for variation in method.

> p.s. what's the record for the longest time taken to complete a round of Munros. I started in 1983, and somehow haven't finished them yet, despite having less than a dozen to go for some time...

Can't recall offhand (will try and remember to check), but I think it's mid/upper 60s, possibly 70 at a pinch. Quite a few people who have done very long rounds climbed one or two as young kids, then had a long gap before getting back to it seriously in middle age. If Tom Weir had wanted to he could have managed a round spanning something like 80 years, but he left a few Munros unclimbed (somewhere between 10 and 20, I seem to recall).
Post edited at 23:53
 planetmarshall 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> Ah, I see what you mean. But I don't think "record" and "recorded" are the same thing. (Have spent all day/week subediting a dull business supplement, so am thinking about meanings and all that.)

Further derailing the thread ( great video, btw ), but if you can't have a pedantic argument about semantics on UKC, then where else?

By definition, "record" means "the highest achievement recorded", at least that's its etymology, so if it's not recorded, by definition it isn't a record. However, my response was a bit tongue in cheek. The meanings of words change over time, and these days 'record' is usually meant to be the highest achievement made in some field whether officially recorded as such or not.
 Michael Hood 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Dave Hewitt: Well if I ever get round to doing the Munros my first one was Ben Nevis in 1966 so it'll be at least 50 years

 Dave Hewitt 10 Dec 2014
In reply to planetmarshall:
> By definition, "record" means "the highest achievement recorded", at least that's its etymology, so if it's not recorded, by definition it isn't a record. However, my response was a bit tongue in cheek. The meanings of words change over time, and these days 'record' is usually meant to be the highest achievement made in some field whether officially recorded as such or not.

Depends a bit I suppose whether there's an equivalent of the "journal of record" concept, as per The Times of yore. Re the main Scottish lists, the SMC Journal and the Munro's Tables book (and these days the online list) would be regarded as that by some, but there's been confusion in recent years with the Munro Society arriving on the scene and various other lists of actual hills and achievements aren't at all under the SMC aegis.
Post edited at 10:19
 Michael Gordon 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Scomuir:

>
> p.s. what's the record for the longest time taken to complete a round of Munros. I started in 1983, and somehow haven't finished them yet, despite having less than a dozen to go for some time...

This year's SMC journal has Robert Waterston as holding the record for longest round (69 years). He's currently 90 years of age.
 Dave Hewitt 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> This year's SMC journal has Robert Waterston as holding the record for longest round (69 years). He's currently 90 years of age.

Funnily enough I almost mentioned him upthread but wasn't sure whether he was an aged completer or a long-span person (or both). There's a woman who also fits one or both of those categories but I've not yet tracked her down in my less-organised-than-they-should-be notes

Robert Waterston's round ended with Mullach na Dheiragain on 11/7/04, and started with BCCB in the middle of the Beinn a'Ghlo group (a decidedly curiously one to start with) on 19/8/35, so that gives him a round of 68 years and a little under 11 months. He turned 90 at the back end of April this year.
 Eddie Dealtry 11 Dec 2014
Great video Nadir evoking the spirit of running the Ridge solo - and also the grand spirit of Paul, himself.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:
Dave, re BGR unaccompanied. Used to warn contenders that it's inevitable you'll end up on one summit alone and ask which it was after the event. I know of number through pacers having a job keeping up or a bit of chaos - one in particular.
 Serena Lambre 16 Dec 2014
In reply to UKC News:

Hi,
Great video, great article. Thank you for those.
Can I ask you, Dan or Jack, where the quote comes from at the beginning of the article:
"The Cuillin Ridge is the most celebrated ..."
I want to use it, but want to reference where it came from originally.
Many thanks,
Serena.

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