UKH

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2014/11/23/cross-on-top-of-irelands-highes...

Of course, the genuine act of vandalism was when the damn thing was put up there in the first place. Good riddance to it I say; it's just a shame they didn't cut it up and throw away the pieces.

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Ed: And here on UKHillwalking: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=69329

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Save us from the "Political Correctness Police". I suppose every cross from every mountaintop world wide should be removed??. It wasn't doing anyone any harm so perhaps its your intolerance is the real issue.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Presumably you think the same about Pots and Pans, Frank.

In reply to goatee:

He is the agnostic/atheist police.

The politically correct police would be calling for the cross to be accompanied by various types of star and a crescent and a khanda and a lotus flower.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

That is hardly a mountain.

In reply to marsbar:

So what? Are summits more sacrosanct than other high places? Can't see the logic in that, myself.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Is there still a bicycle (in memory of the third policeman according to the plaque) ?

In reply to Frank the Husky:

''MacGillycuddy’s Reeks Mountain Access Forum said they will be organising the re-erection of the cross.''

I sincerely hope that they also reinstate a far more reliable fairy light system this time round. I was gutted to get to the top only to find that the old one wasn't working.

Only in Ireland?

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I don't know the other one, but pots and pans isn't exactly rural and is to me a lovely reminder of the people of those towns that gave their lives. I don't think summits are automatically sacred for that matter. However I'm not going to lose sleep over a religious symbol being removed, seems more protest than vandalism to me.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Kerry county councillor John Joe Culloty who earlier this year proposed a crucifix be hung in the council chamber in Killarney, said the cutting of the cross was a further step in the move towards “a Godless society”...

He said he saw the removal of the cross as part of a drive to “allow what is not normal and to become normal”. He said he meant abortion, gay marriage and “assisted dying” as issues which were not normal.

In reply to goatee:

FtH must go into meltdown whenever he sees the The Aiguille du Midi!

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Couldn't agree more, religion is tolerated in any modern society but that is in private life and places of worship. There is no place for religious signs, especially massive ones, in public places and it's hard to get more public than a mountain top. Small ones may be tolerated for abbing off but this monstrous cross clearly went beyond this need

In reply to Lusk:


That's not a religious symbol, maybe a phallic one but otherwise aimed at scientific observation.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I suppose that logic could also be applied to St Pauls etc etc. Intolerance is unacceptable.

In reply to marsbar:

Pots ans Pans isn't rural?
So, by your definition, neither is Aldermans.
Would you define it as an urban crag?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yeah well, under the new regime them boys that like wingsuiting around that Jesus dude in Brazil better find a new target...

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I think that chopping the cross was a pretty cowardly act of vandalism. The cross was erected in a different era and while Ireland is a quite a different country now I think that the cross should of remained as a nod to those days. I would guess that most people would of liked the cross to stay in place, certainly the landowners didn't seem to have a problem with it.

I'm not sure what motivated the chopper, it may have been environmental grounds or anti-religious, but either way I think it amounts of pure vandalism.

In reply to Dave Flanagan:

Anyone remember the car headlights and tiny wind turbine on the cross.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Holy cr*p, another discussion about unilateral removal of an installation on top of a hill; where have I heard that one before?

Martin

In reply to goatee:


You know that's a bit of an intolerant attitude, right?

Martin

In reply to Lusk:


FtH never goes to the Alps so he never has to go into meltdown. Well to be honest, he does go there to go skitouring with his fat owner, but then he would only ever use the cross to empty his bladder onto. I doubt he would ponder the existential meaning of his pisspost.

In reply to Tom Valentine:


Hi Tom, no I don't. Pots & Pans is a memorial to actual men and boys who were slaughtered in wars. It's not a symbol of a non existent god so I approve wholeheartedly. I hope you are well.

In reply to goatee:


You miss the point, boss, you miss the point. The article goes on about the vandalism of removing it, my point is that placing the thing there was the original act of vandalism. Aruably it might have been doing harm by getting in the way of a nice view and so on and so forth. You see what I mean though, right?

In reply to goatee:


St Paul's used to be a place of worship until it became a tourist attraction you had to pay for to visit.. still theoretically a place of worship though so, as I said above, has to be tolerated.

In reply to Frank the Husky:
Climbed Carrauntoohil a couple of years ago. Quite satisfying to see the cross looming out of the fog and horizontal rain and know that I was nearly there.
Same feeling on the Grossglockner after many hours on the Studlgrat ridge.

I am fairly ambivalent about the placing of cairns, monuments, shelters, crosses or anything else. But on national high points like Carrauntoohil, Grossglockner etc I think we should leave it to local people to decide and then respect their local decision.

Those who want to remove them should raise a local, democratic discussion. Times change and so do attitudes but vandalism is just cowardly. I'm glad they're putting the cross back.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

We have one here. Sits out on the Prairie like a beacon, even has the lights. Put up by the Pro Lifers and the knights of Columbus and I'd happily take an effing grinder to it. One of the greatest symbols of oppression I can think of funded by a bunch of middle aged Catholic men to dictate to women what they do with their own bodies.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Yes how would you like it if someone took an effigy of the son of the great sky pixie down from YOUR front garden? It's against the Law don't you know? It wasn't put on top of the mountain for pr@~ts like you to remove.

In reply to paul fleuriot:

It's not someone's front garden though is it.

By the way you can type "prat".

It's a tacky vacuous religious tourist attraction, doesn't belong on a mountain in my book, but then I have far more balanced approach to religion than the Irish state.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Sorry this was a tongue in cheek reference to a landowner that Frank the Husky and myself got a right roasting from for riding MTBs on tarmaced footpath near his property who asked how we would like someone in OUR front garden. Probably a different topic alltogether.
However my opinion is that wild places such as mountain tops should be free of any man made effigies. Let the place speak for itself and free from the needs of others to manifest physical incarnations of beliefs or feelings so as not to distract others who can keep such things inside where they belong, and enjoy the real undistracted experience of such magical places. How would it be if worship of the male member was the chosen path of many who felt the need for a 20foot statue their Icon on top of as many of the worlds summits as possible?

In reply to Babika:


People often say this sort of thing but although I agree vandalism can be a real nuisance I don't think it is cowardly... it must be quite scarey spending time cutting down a bit of trash like this oversized cross knowing the noise could attract people. So definitely not cowardly, that's just a soundbite you put in in an attempt to give weight to your (rather poor) argument.

If it was a mobile phone aerial stuck up there for pecuniary gain I bet you'd be amongst the first to complain, and quite rightly too!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

err no

if you actually read my post (as opposed to just rant away) you would see that I'm ambivalent to stuff on the top

Ambivalent means I don't really care whether its there or not.

And why is local decision making a poor argument? Do enlighten me?

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Now this is real environmental vandalism...

http://www.theguardian.com/science/across-the-universe/2014/jun/19/mountain...

In reply to maisie:


Yep

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Was the cross left on the ground or taken away? If it has gone then it could have been taken for scrap. Metal thieves even stole world famous sculptures by Henry Moore, worth thousands, from public parks, but they were made of bronze. If it was just steel then it looks like a political gesture.

In reply to armus:

It was left lying where it feel. This make me it think it wasn't a misguided environmental gesture as surely that would involve removing the offending item from the mountain.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

It can be worse! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335159/Mysterious-hill-crosses-pil...
I don't know what's attractable about this place and why I had to go there on school trips, etc., but I've been there at least half a dozen times.

I like the quote "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints". I'd rather see a bench on Ben Nevis than a cross on top of the hill, though.

In reply to PPP:

There's a sect that has taken to build giant crosses all over the place. I know of a village in Burgundy where one cropped up. After a lot of discussing the Mayor just cut it down, like on this hill top, because they didn't have planning permission. It was the same sort, simple girders welded, painted pink in the case I'mm thinking of. It had lights that flashed too at first IIRC.


In reply to Babika:

It was the word "cowardly" I objected to, I'd say all such brazen acts are anything but cowardly, but you use the word just like Cameron does to denigrate the doer but 9 times out of 10 he really means "nasty" or "vile". He thinks the word will appeal to the macho in us, as you appear to. Maybe you used the word occidentally? A slip of the fingers?

In reply to Babika:



What you meant was 'indifferent'. 'Ambivalent' doesn't mean you don't really care or not: it means you have a mix of emotions and cannot quiter reconcile them.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I imagine there's a fair lot of people in Ireland who would have seen this cross as a symbol of all the harm that befell the people there through unquestioning acceptance of the authority of religion. A shame it's going to be re-erected.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Isn't this just crag swag? If someone leaves random bits of metal jammed into the rocks, then I reckon that's fair game.
Either that, or it's in situ protection, in which case it has no place in the mountains and deserved to be chopped.

In reply to stevieb:

I am not getting at you but who decides what has a place in mountains and what doesn't?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Self serving superiority complex claptrap. Disdain raining down on those that are backward enough to believe religious gobble de gook of any persuasion. Don't forget to wish everybody happy holidays on Dec 25th. Personally I believe that saying a prayer is as useful as saying hocus-pocus but I have no problem with others being less "enlightened". For most people it was just a symbol of an achievement on reaching the summit. If it offends people then look the other way, there's lots more to see and lots of other summits without any such offending structures.

In reply to Cuthbert:

No one has mentioned the Matterhorn yet.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Isn't the Matterhorn in Switzerland, rather than Ireland?

I lived in Ireland for 5 years, and can't recall having seen the Matterhorn there... Then again, I was very drunk at the time.

In reply to Clauso:

I thought we were discussing the validity of putting religious structures on top of mountains.
Why does it matter if it's in Ireland, Switzerland or Brazil?

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I just feel a bit cheated that I missed out on having a crack at the Matterhorn, while I was living over there. That's all... I wouldn't mind the cross.

In reply to goatee:

But some people think religious propaganda in an aggressive way is unreasonable, a cross is hardly an innocuous symbol, is it? Let alone a massive steel one. As for the pleasure of getting to the top don't most people realise that when there's no more up to do? Having a whacking great cross to mark the spot for what must be a tiny minority of walkers who have "altitude sensing difficulties" seems to be going just a bit too far.

In reply to Cuthbert:


local activists, and keyboard warriors everywhere

In reply to Frank the Husky:

They need to put a cafe up there, never mind a cross. So folks who make the effort to trudge up can be rewarded with a plate of fried squid.

In reply to Clauso:

Going over next week. If it's in Connemara I will check it out.

For serious anti religious vandalism, though, I might have a walk up Croagh Patrick.

In reply to Tom Valentine:


Unfortunately it isn't; it's way to the south in County Kerry.

In reply to Dave Williams:
Thanks Dave. I was actually thinking about Darren's Irish Matterhorn.

But now that you've mentioned it, which Irish peak is closest to the Matterhorn in shape, do you reckon?

(In the same way that some sources refer to Cnicht as "The Welsh Matterhorn")

In reply to goatee:
Is he not allowed an opinion? I don't think he did it ffs.

In reply to PPP:


Noooo! Don't go there!

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Crosses on summits. Can't bear them.

In reply to Tom Valentine:


I'd nominate the Sugarloaf, in Co. Wicklow, from certain angles...

In reply to planetmarshall:

Would be nice if this one was sacrificed for the good of everyone but I suspect after a few days it will be re-erected.

In reply to Ridge:

I once almost made a mistake going there. As a potential Munro bagger, that seems unavoidable anyway.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Mullaghanattin, Co Kerry - " Irelands Matterhorn"

http://mountainviews.ie/summit/58/_serverdata/pix/picmtn_ct-00058-5.jpg

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Every summit over here in Italy seems to have a metal cross and other bits of metal work.

In reply to Clauso:

Lovely looking peak which i'd never heard of. (Thought you were joking at first)

In reply to john arran:

Mick Ryan is clear on this. Hand wringing on UKC and the local cross consideration commitees have no real bearing on the matter... its cross raising activists and removal activists, that get out there and do stuff, that count