UKH

I would appreciate any opinions on the use of Two Way Radios as a safety blanket for Gold dofe participants on an expedition in the Lakes. For the use of contacting supervisors in the event of an emergency.

Thanks

Dan

In reply to Daniel Duerden:
We tried some motorola ones and they were of limited use to be honest, valleys, glens,thick tree cover all bolloxed the signal. They seemed to work best in the open, almost line-of-sight. You could try more powerful units but they are heavy cumbersome and costly.

At Gold they should really be self sufficient and have emergency action plans anyway. No need for 2 way radios.

In reply to Daniel Duerden:
We use them, with cadets (bigger, more powerful and on our own frequency). They are a godsend, or we'd be hanging around forever guessing where they were. It's more for the supervisor's peace of mind than anything and makes our lives much easier.

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

I have used them in the past in 'extreme' conditions but not routinely, My preferred emergency contact method is to give the group my Spot Tracker with the understanding that contact is not instantaneous so they still have to be self sufficient and deal with incidents themselves.

We tend to use the radios more for the support team to keep in contact if we have multiple groups out. My radios are quite expensive and are pretty reliable with a good range.

Steve

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

Kind of depends on the route, and where the supervisors will be, really. If they're walking up a valley, over a col, and down the valley the other side (which is typical D of E route), then they're not likely to be able to contact supervisors driving round to meet them at the other end.

OTOH, if the supervisors are walking the ridge above the valley (as a pair I saw at the start of the week were) then they'd probably work well. But they wouldn't really be needed.

They do need to be pretty much line of site - so, in my experience they work well from hills on one side of valley to another (eg comms around a ski resort), but I doubt they'd be much use in DofE situation.

A "safety blanket" that only works part of the time might give a false sense of security....

I'd say it is pretty rare that we can't get contact with them from a road, albeit that may involve a bit of driving around, so I'd say it is a pretty solid safety blanket. This is in the Lakes and our radios have a 10mile range (but have been known to go much further).

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

Seems a bit over kill. Isn't the whole point if DofE expeditions to let youngsters off the leash and fend for themselves? When I did it, you have to submit your route plan including timings. By the time you get to do your gold, you should have nailed timings. We were met by our teacher / assessor at certain unannounced points along the way.

You will never instill responsibility into the yoof if they always have a fall back.

Thanks for the opinions. I've tried to find a stance on this from the DofE themselves, but can't find anything. Does anyone know what their position is?

In reply to Daniel Duerden:
I doubt they will have an opinion. Why do you feel they need it? We are talking DofE gold here walking the Lakes. So we are talking about 16-18 year olds walking a wild part of the country but which at the same time isn't that remote. Surely the emphasis from you as a leader should be about ensuring they have contingency plans for dealing with any emergencies enroute? Basic first aid followed by basic survival and seek rescue strategies. It is all common sense. Add to this the fact that you should be meeting them several times a day at prearranged checkpoints and times and I don't really know what more there is to do.

I did my silver practice in the Lakes and the weather was so bad, we were encouraged to find an alternative route. Days 2 and 3 were basically valley walks and we didn't wild camp in Eskdale as hoped. But then that is the basis of good outdoor craftmanship right?

On the one hand you have a duty of care, but on the other, the whole point of the expeditions is to encoourage "young people in their self-development and recognise their achievements."

In reply to ByEek:



I agree. If you want kids to be self reliant you have to let them rely on themselves at some point. If you cant let them out by themselves they shouldn't pass gold imho.

An alternative is a single mobile wrapped and sealed up. Break the seal in a real emergency only (999 type stuff). Depends on reception in your area.

In reply to ByEek:

Thanks for all the responses. I'm just canvasing opinion and seeing if there are other points of view from my own.

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

I've used radios extensively across the north York moors with trainees.

To obtain hood coverage I tried to ensure that the user, including me, we're at high points in the landscape when being used or had maximum line of sight. I used scheduled times, hourly, when I/they could contact each other and give me. Their grid ref.

Range is line of sight for all handheld radios and with an old cb radio I've got over ten miles on good batteries.

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

I would be disappointed to find a child of mine had been told to take a radio on a D of E expedition at any level. At Gold level if they need radios, they aren't ready for the expedition. (IMHO)

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

For them to be of use I assume they would have to be on all the time. How are the batteries being charged? Are they carrying spares or are they recharging at camp-sites? I suppose you might have an hourly "radio on" protocol but 59 mins to wait for a response might be too long (though I'm struggling to think of scenarios that a properly trained group in an area that is commensurate with their training might struggle with - though of course there might be some).

Mt thought is this, and they are just thoughts not criticisms:

Supervisors tend to be one of two breeds - roadside and in the field. If you're an in the field type, remotely supervising where you think or know the team/s might go wrong, then you're already in place. Radio is redundant.

If you're a roadside supervisor and the group is struggling for whatever reason out on the hill, then the radio no matter what it says their reception radius is, might not work. And even if they do contact you, what of it? Won't you just be repeating the "fall back on your training" mantra.

With an assessor hat on I might argue against radio use in a constant "radio on" situation as it arguably contravenes the second condition: Your expedition must be unaccompanied and self-sufficient. Might it be viewed that the radio becomes a crutch? An extra member of the training/supervision team? And is it really self-sufficient if they know that all they have to do is dial in the radio and ask for assistance?

Although DofE isn't a nav test I always remind students especially at gold that if I'm supervising and they're constantly getting "lost" then if I have to sort that out from becoming a bigger problem, some assessors might view my contacts as "too much" assistance and not self-sufficient. I use this as a bit of a stick to keep them up to scratch with the detail and discipline of navigating so that they won't need any assistance.

Personally and professionally I do think that mobiles, radios and trackers (gaaah) are put in place more for the convenience and peace of mind of staff rather than from any real value to the team, or at least any value that couldn't just be got from getting out of the car/mini-bus. Train the teams properly, get a good practice done then let them get on with it.

In reply to Dave Perry:




Line of sight with binoculars? And if it's so thick with mist and fog that is what a bad weather route is for (or I just reduce the distance between me and the team).

I once tracked a very adept team off Scafell in thick mist from a distance of 10 metres. Thank god for loud voiced teenage boys. Once we were out of the cloud base I disappeared. For four days they didn't see me, but I was where I needed to be at all times.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Add in a couple of "Check-tins" a day so you can get an idea of progress should you not see them.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Hol, ho

If its so thick with mist and fog, I'd expect that groups properly instructed on use of map and compass could cover a reasonable amount of ground with enough accuracy. Thats when a radio could be of use.

Of course supervising all groups by being close enough to keep them under radio supervision may not suit all instructors/safety cover and so on. It doesn't take longer than an hour or two for a group to end up out of Radio range so they need regular monitoring in my view.

A VHF/UHF radio which most hand helds are, propagate their signals much like a light beam. Of course it won't travel through or completely around large solid objects but the signal, like a light source can travel/illuminate to just out of sight.

The trainees I supervised were sixteen to seventeen YTS trainees.

I'd guess that capable DofE students are a little older and probably have a little more sense and ability and as one poster has said may need far, far less supervision especially if they are not on remote moorland.

If I was supervising similar groups now, I think I'd be more inclined to rely on mobile phones.

In reply to Dave Perry:



They wouldn't need a radio!
They are doing what they should be doing where they should be doing it.

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

Having done the DofE at Gold Level (expeditions in Sutherland and the Cairngorms), I think radios would take the element of adventure out of the whole affair, and possible provide an unnecessary mental crutch. I think the combination of experience and proper routecards is more than sufficient.

In reply to Daniel Duerden:

For official DofE guidance on the use of me bile phones and radios, consult chapter 9 of the 13th edition of the Expedition Guide.

Essentially, it recommends that mobile phones and radios should be used for emergency use only, but, reading between the lines, there seems to be some acceptance that some groups will want to stretch the definition of 'emergency'.

It is also instructive to remember that there is no 'one DofE', and that award programmes are tailored to the capabilities of individual participants.

For those parents arguing that they wouldn't want their children to be carrying communications equipment, I'll ask if they would be so sanguine if their child happened to die for the lack of what is everyday emergency equipment. Whilst rare, there are incidents where conventional emergency procedures would not bring help fast enough.

Most DofE supervisors are volunteers, and, for non-adult participants, are responsible for the safety of participants. As such, they should be given the right to decide what emergency measures are put in place. If you don't like it, don't place that responsibility in their hands.

The group I help with uses GPS trackers and phones. The phones are generally reserved for emergency use, but are turned on, and we sometime use them to ease supervision, This doesn't mean that we are sat in a van stuffing our faces with buns; we're out in the field tracking multiple groups. Everyone is made aware that both tracker and phone may not work, so conventional procedures are also taught, and we observe them and meet them in the field. We don't shadow them, even at bronze practice. Shadowing teams from 10m? Blimey, they must have been unobservant, or you're a ninja; ours sometimes spot us hiding behind bushes from 100s of metres away. We don't do gold, but I would expect ours to be making very few navigational errors by that stage; silver assessed in usually uneventful.

As for PMR446 radios, well, they operate at, no surprise, 446MHz, which is essentially line-of-sight, with a range of about 2-5km, depending on conditions and handset.