retail gone mad?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 Bluebird 06 Mar 2014
just got back from purchasing a C3 crampon from a well known large outdoor retailer... took my B3 boots in to make sure what I was buying would fit. Shop assistant helpfully fitted one crampon to my boot, whilst I did the other. His mate, after checking with his manager, informed said shop assistant he wasn't allowed to fit crampons just incase I was left with the impression they were sorted/safe/reliable and fit for use. We then had to go through this farce where the crampons had to be readjusted so they wouldn't fit the boot, before I could buy them and thereby removing liability from retailer.

For some reason the guy took umbrage when I said I'd never trust anything to do with my personal safety conveyed by a shop assistant; there is only one person responsible for my own safety.

it's really come to something where retail staff aren't able to offer help and advice for fear of being held liable.
 The Pylon King 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

Its the fault of the stupid people in the world. The people who claim compensation. The people who need insurance for everything.
 ThunderCat 06 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

> Its the fault of the stupid people in the world. The people who claim compensation. The people who need insurance for everything.

Facilities put a "This container may contain hot liquid" sign next to the kettle in our canteen last year.

It's still there.
 jon 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:
So on that reasoning if you bought some skis from them, they wouldn't adjust the bindings to your boots? Or would they de-adjust them so they didn't fit? Surely sending stuff - including crampons - out of their shop that ISN'T adjusted correctly is negligent. This is all just bollocks, isn't it.
Post edited at 10:43
 Carolyn 06 Mar 2014
In reply to jon:

Well, I guess it means that they'd only let a qualified ski technician adjust your bindings, not any member of staff who happens to be hanging about. And that they don't train their staff to adjust crampons, or check that they have the skills to do so.

I'm sure there are still small independent shops that'd happily let their staff help you fit crampons, knowing the staff they employ are more than capable of doing so.
Page 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

It's a good job you didn't buy thermal underwear. They can be highly dangerous if the fit is incorrect.
 ByEek 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

It is total bonkers. Are there any cases in this country where an outdoor enthusiast has taken a shop to court over advice given and won?

It all sounds like fear of something that doesn't exist to me.
 jon 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Carolyn:

OK maybe. However, refusing to adjust crampons is one thing but to go to the lengths of DE-adjusting them before letting them out of the shop really is bollocks. This does seem a very Anglo/American thing to me. I don't know of any shop where I live that would not adjust crampons to fit if asked. They'd simply see it as part of the service.
 pebbles 06 Mar 2014
In reply to jon:

doesnt seem unreasonable to me to expect a shop selling outdoor kit to be capable of advising you on the fit and suitability. and if they havnt got the knowledge to do that, should they really be selling technical equipment?
 JoshOvki 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

I used to work for a large outdoor retailer who advertise on this site. We where never restricted like this. If we had the knowledge to help the customer fit crampons we did, if we didn't and the customer needed help then we would find someone that did.

If what they did was not safe/fit for use then maybe they shouldn't be advising on crampons in the first place?
 Michael Gordon 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

which outdoor retailer?
 terrarob 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

I used to work for one of the big outdoor chains and we had to do this crap, even though we were all end users ourselves and knew what we were doing. It is because of the fear of No-win-no-fee vultures ready to pounce whenever possible!
 Martin W 06 Mar 2014
In reply to jon:

> refusing to adjust crampons is one thing but to go to the lengths of DE-adjusting them before letting them out of the shop really is bollocks.

Logically, if the staff didn't know how to adjust the crampons correctly then how could they know that they'd been de-adjusted correctly??!
OP Bluebird 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Martin W:

I thought that.. but for a while it was looking like a somewhat circular argument they were trying to make would prevent me from actually buying the C3 so I decided to keep quiet until I'd actually purchased them!
Funnily enough when I entered the ship carrying my boots, I saw the shop manager and I said "Hi buddy, just brought my own B3's in to make sure the crampons I want to buy actually fit"
to which he replied "good idea!"
 alimckay 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

I work for a retailer with these restrictions. The line is that we have a responsibility to ensure that the crampons fit the boot correctly, however we are not a qualified instructor so we can't sell/give them to the customer in a ready to use state without any adjustment from the customer. They need to seek instruction if they are not sure or more likely just do it themselves, so the store has no responsibility.

I'm not saying I agree with this it's just what we are told to do. In reality I just adjust the crampon one notch bigger/smaller and inform the customer what I have done and what they need to do to get it back to how it was. It does seem a bit silly to be honest.

Ali
 martinph78 06 Mar 2014
In reply to alimckay:

> however we are not a qualified instructor
>They need to seek instruction if they are not sure or more likely just do it themselves, so the store has no responsibility.

This makes perfect sense. It is the retailers job to ensure they sell you the correct product, not to instruct you on how to use it. Otherwise where does it stop? Retailers showing customers how to tie into a harness, or use a belay device?

Yes, it may be considered "stupid", but in this day and age it is not unexpected.


Bluebird, you said it yourself:

>it's really come to something where retail staff aren't able to offer help and advice for fear of being held liable.

It is, but that's not the assistants, or retailers fault.

OP Bluebird 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Martin1978:

therein lies the rub though. " It is the retailers job to ensure they sell you the correct product"
getting correct fit on a crampon to a particular boot is really rather important (particularly since you can't return them for a refund if they don't fit once you've left the shop); I would not expect a retailer to teach me how to use it correctly. Confirm one that fits yes, teach, no.
 martinph78 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

That is what they did though? They (and you) ensured it fitted, returned it to it's original state, then sold it to you.


 jon 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Martin1978:
Look at it another way. If they fitted it correctly then they should have no worries as nothing can go wrong. Maybe they are therefore simply saying that their staff can't be trusted!
Post edited at 13:04
 @ndyM@rsh@ll 06 Mar 2014
In reply to jon:

I work in an outdoor shop and i sell these things, in a good winter like last year i must have personally fitted close to a hundred pairs of various crampons to various boots, with the trickle that goes out over the rest of the year it'll easily be more than a hundred. That's just me, with all the other staff (around 10 on a busy weekend) how perfect do you think we are that we could never ever make a mistake?
 martinph78 06 Mar 2014
In reply to jon:

> Look at it another way. If they fitted it correctly then they should have no worries as nothing can go wrong. Maybe they are therefore simply saying that their staff can't be trusted!

I could look at it a hundred ways, and agree that many of them are stupid, but it won't change the store policy or the libelous country that we now live in.


 JoshOvki 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Martin1978:

> the libelous country that we now live in.

Do we really live in that much of a libelous country now?

If we did shops would most shops would never help a customer find a harness, what if it doesn't fit them properly, then fall out of it and DIE?! What if it is a child... WON'T SOMEONE THING OF THE CHILDREN!
 jon 06 Mar 2014
In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

It isn't very difficult to adjust a pair of crampons properly. If you've adjusted that many, I'd say you wouldn't make a mistake. I adjust my clients' crampons. I don't stand back and tell them to do their own as I don't want me to sue them.
 crayefish 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

That's f*cking retarded of them! And rather strange as when you rent crampons from a local shop they make sure they are fitted to your boots properly (well my friends who rented them have had that!).

Who is to blame? America and all those lawyers who need to be rounded up into an internment camp.
 martinph78 06 Mar 2014
In reply to JoshOvki:
> Do we really live in that much of a libelous country now?

Best ask the lawyers of said retailer what they think.

It's not long ago that Tito Traversa died as a result of an incorrectly slung quickdraw. That investigation went right through the chain, including the store that sold the equipment.

It would be naive to think this wouldn't happen again.

The manufacturers include a disclaimer with climbing equipment (along the lines of personal responsibility to use equipment correctly), etc, so why wouldn't a retailer have their own disclaimer?

It's a non-issue anyway. As we all know how to fit a crampon safely ourselves, and all take responsibility for our own equipment and it's correct use, why are we bothered if a retail assistant is told they aren't allowed to do it?
Post edited at 14:39
 JoshOvki 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Martin1978:

I imagine someone buying there first pair of crampons before going away on a course might not know how to fit there own crampons but still want to make sure they get ones that fit there boots well. Likely to be checked out by the instructor on their course first but still.

If they are not allowed to help people fit crampons, why in the world are they allowed to help people fit a harness?
 martinph78 06 Mar 2014
In reply to JoshOvki:

You'd be best writing to the retailer involved and ask them as anything else would be pure speculation.

 wivanov 06 Mar 2014
In reply to crayefish:
> Who is to blame? America and all those lawyers who need to be rounded up into an internment camp.

I suppose some of that is true. OTOH, here in the States I can buy iodine at any pharmacy, buy many kinds of climbing cordage and webbing (not just pre-sewn slings), have cams and other gear reslung with sewn slings by someone other than the manufacturer and many other things. Is it true that many of these things are not available or illegal in the EU?

Certainly agree with you about the lawyers, tho...

Edit: Forgot to mention denatured alcohol. I can buy that by the gallon virtually anywhere.
Post edited at 14:53
 JoshOvki 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Martin1978:

I would but we haven't been told which shop it is.
 alimckay 06 Mar 2014
In reply to JoshOvki:

Like I said we have a responsibility to make sure the crampons fit the customers boot, so they will know that their crampons are suitable and fit correctly. By which I mean we put various sets on the boot and advise which one (in our opinion) fits the best, then it is altered. The customer (in your case a beginner) will then either read up on how to adjust the crampon or get a qualified person to do it for them. They have left the store knowing that their crampons were the best fit for their boots, however, we cannot be held responsible for them blindly taking the word of what is essentially a unqualified shop assistant (I agree some might have huge experience and might even be a MIC themselves but the rules are made for everyone).

Its similar to prussik loops, we can advise on the length, the thickness, but we cannot tie the double fishermans knot for them. If they do not know how they either need to research it or seek instruction.
 TMM 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Martin1978:

> I could look at it a hundred ways, and agree that many of them are stupid, but it won't change the store policy or the libelous country that we now live in.

Do you really mean 'libelous' (sic) or do you mean litigious? I don't believe that 'libel' has any bearing on retail liability.
 OwenM 06 Mar 2014
In reply to wivanov:

Webbing and cordage,yes you can get but getting hard to find.
Iodine, I don't think you can.
De-natured alcohol called meths yes you can buy this.
 alimckay 06 Mar 2014
In reply to JoshOvki:

In the case of harnesses they are fitted to make sure they fit, then the customer removes the harness and in doing so loosens off all the straps, pays and leaves the store. Then re-fits it themselves each time the climb. which is the same as we are told to do with crampons. The harness is not ready to use when it leaves the store (the straps need tightening) same as the crampons aren't ready to use (the bar is adjusted).
 JoshOvki 06 Mar 2014
In reply to alimckay:

I am suddenly very glad the place I used to work at applied some common sense to these matters!
 martinph78 06 Mar 2014
In reply to TMM:

Yes, I meant litigious.

 alimckay 06 Mar 2014
In reply to JoshOvki:

I didn't say I agreed with it. IMO anyone involved in the selling of crampons should be a fairly regular user of them themselves and be confident in fitting them on their own boots and anyone else's. If they aren't confident they should get someone in the shop who is. However I can also understand the retailers worry about potentially getting sued if anything were to go wrong.

Does anyone know if it would be classed as the retailer at fault or the specific Sale Assistant if it ever got the that stage? I suppose no one knows seen as from the sound of it it has never happened, just interested that's all.
 crayefish 06 Mar 2014
In reply to wivanov:

> I suppose some of that is true. OTOH, here in the States I can buy iodine at any pharmacy, buy many kinds of climbing cordage and webbing (not just pre-sewn slings), have cams and other gear reslung with sewn slings by someone other than the manufacturer and many other things. Is it true that many of these things are not available or illegal in the EU?

> Certainly agree with you about the lawyers, tho...

> Edit: Forgot to mention denatured alcohol. I can buy that by the gallon virtually anywhere.

Yeah America seems to have a funny combination of a huge claim culture, but then very relaxed about other things (firearms, chemicals etc)! Guess they want dangerous stuff to keep the lawyers in business
OP Bluebird 06 Mar 2014
In reply to crayefish:

wonder if guns are sold with firing pins separate in a bag
- would hate for someone to hurt themselves, not knowing what they're doing
OP Bluebird 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

frankly on balance, I for one will be making more effort to support my local independent in future.

I don't want my retailer to consider themselves in someway accountable for my safety and thereby "sanitising" their advice, recommendations and helpfulness to cover their backsides.
 wercat 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

This is one of the multitude of unintended consequences of the decision to allow advertising by Salaryicitors back in the 80s, leading to No win no fee,

Juat Imagine when food manufacturers start putting labels on products

"The Manufacturer makes no admission as to the suitability of this product for human consumption or for any other purpose whatsoever..."
 Michael Gordon 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

> wonder if guns are sold with firing pins separate in a bag
>

I doubt they just hand them to you loaded with the safety catch off?
 Michael Gordon 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

Moral of the story - just fit your own crampons.

Oh and you've not said who the retailer was yet?
 wivanov 06 Mar 2014
In reply to crayefish:

> Yeah America seems to have a funny combination of a huge claim culture, but then very relaxed about other things (firearms, chemicals etc)! Guess they want dangerous stuff to keep the lawyers in business

/me smiles
Well, we're not there yet but I think we're becoming more EU-like in what we can and cannot buy. As a minor I recall buying .22 LR hollow points and chemicals as dangerous as carbon carbon tetrachloride.

Years ago, reslinging hexes and stoppers in in the local climbing shop, the guy not only cut eveything to length for me but helped me resling and tied some of the double fisherman's himself while I tied others.

That stuff would never happen now.

@OwenM: Thanks for the clarification.
 GPN 06 Mar 2014
In reply to wivanov:

> Years ago, reslinging hexes and stoppers in in the local climbing shop, the guy not only cut eveything to length for me but helped me resling and tied some of the double fisherman's himself while I tied others.

> That stuff would never happen now.

I wouldn't bet on it
OP Bluebird 06 Mar 2014
In reply to GPN:

they would do it for you, just to show it could be done, but then they'd cut the slings before you leave the shop, just so they're no longer liable.
 GPN 06 Mar 2014
In reply to Bluebird:

> they would do it for you, just to show it could be done, but then they'd cut the slings before you leave the shop, just so they're no longer liable.

Indeed!
Jim C 06 Mar 2014
In reply to ThunderCat:

> Facilities put a "This container may contain hot liquid" sign next to the kettle in our canteen last year.

> Our Facilities instructed the cleaners to go into all the fridges ( 3 office blocks- approx 15 fridges ) and dispose of any food that was past the date.

Snag was, the cleaners don't look at whether it is 'best before' or the 'Use By' date , and dumped perfectly good food, a day after 'Best Before' dates

Jim C 06 Mar 2014
In reply to alimckay:
I regularly send various things back to Engineering as I have spotted something that 'I think ' merits another look " If in doubt ask"
I cannot correct anything myself, as I am not a chartered Engineer.

( just a old Procurement guy who has seen almost 40 years of requisitions ; drawings; specifications etc cross my desk .
( what do I know in the eyes of the law)

The day we are no longer allowed to tie knots for customers or fit crampons to boots etc is the day I'll give up selling climbing equipment. If I didn't think that the people who worked for me knew how to do these things (and knew how to do them through years of experience, not through having attended a five minute "course") I wouldn't employ them - and yes I have discussed all this with my insurer and I am sure we pay an increased premium as a result, though interestingly they seemed more concerned that we occasionally ship orders to the USA.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...