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Something I've read in Alex Roddie's intriguing novel (background here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5011 and here: http://www.alexroddie.com/p/novels-by-alex-roddie.html ) set me wondering.
Anyone know about climbers who have successfully fielded their partners in long factor 2 falls using a waist belay?
Looking forward to hearing stories from gnarly old-timers and knowledgeable history types..!
Anyone know about climbers who have successfully fielded their partners in long factor 2 falls using a waist belay?
Looking forward to hearing stories from gnarly old-timers and knowledgeable history types..!
In reply to nwclimber:
I do remember a tale of someone who held a huge fall on a wasit belay on Psychedelic Wall/astral highway. Melted through his Goretex jacket and fleece - early goretex (in that it was unusual), so must have been circa 1979. It didn't end particularly well but not catastrophically. Around 200 feet in total if I recall. The belayer (whose story it was) thought he was going to die.
I do remember a tale of someone who held a huge fall on a wasit belay on Psychedelic Wall/astral highway. Melted through his Goretex jacket and fleece - early goretex (in that it was unusual), so must have been circa 1979. It didn't end particularly well but not catastrophically. Around 200 feet in total if I recall. The belayer (whose story it was) thought he was going to die.
In reply to nwclimber:
I once did. It was on the N face of the Aig du Plan. My climbing partner fell from a long way up a very steep (Scottish V) ice pitch, ripping two screw runners out. I was belayed on a single screw and deliberately using a waist belay to minimise shock on the anchor. As you can tell we survived, though we didn't complete the climb.
I once did. It was on the N face of the Aig du Plan. My climbing partner fell from a long way up a very steep (Scottish V) ice pitch, ripping two screw runners out. I was belayed on a single screw and deliberately using a waist belay to minimise shock on the anchor. As you can tell we survived, though we didn't complete the climb.
In reply to nwclimber: I think a lot of falls like that are slides rather than freefalls, a friend held his partner who fell about 30 or 40 mtr above him on the Upper Colouir of Stob Ghabhar. She shot down passed his belay (no runners) and took flight over the icefall pitch. He burnt through some gloves IIRC and she flattened some spikes on her crampons, but amazingly wasn't really hurt beyond some bruises. So I guess he held an 80 mtr fall directly onto a waist belay!
In reply to nwclimber: I held my old pal Dick Mctaggart when a peg came out on the now quarried away aid route "Roozleboom" at Sea Walls,Avon Gorge.I was actually using a shoulder belay so I dont know if that counts and he pulled out two more pegs so you can guess roughly how far he fell.I had a nice temporary scar though.
In reply to rif:
gulp!
> (In reply to nwclimber)
> I once did. It was on the N face of the Aig du Plan. My climbing partner fell from a long way up a very steep (Scottish V) ice pitch, ripping two screw runners out. I was belayed on a single screw and deliberately using a waist belay to minimise shock on the anchor. As you can tell we survived, though we didn't complete the climb.
> I once did. It was on the N face of the Aig du Plan. My climbing partner fell from a long way up a very steep (Scottish V) ice pitch, ripping two screw runners out. I was belayed on a single screw and deliberately using a waist belay to minimise shock on the anchor. As you can tell we survived, though we didn't complete the climb.
gulp!
In reply to TobyA:
That's insane! Out of interest, do you think the fall could have been held by a shoulder belay (or even with a belay device)?
I've heard a couple of stories which feature similar situations, and the consensus always seems to be that the force-absorbing properties of a waist belay can help dramatically with this kind of fall.
> (In reply to nwclimber) I think a lot of falls like that are slides rather than freefalls, a friend held his partner who fell about 30 or 40 mtr above him on the Upper Colouir of Stob Ghabhar. She shot down passed his belay (no runners) and took flight over the icefall pitch. He burnt through some gloves IIRC and she flattened some spikes on her crampons, but amazingly wasn't really hurt beyond some bruises. So I guess he held an 80 mtr fall directly onto a waist belay!
That's insane! Out of interest, do you think the fall could have been held by a shoulder belay (or even with a belay device)?
I've heard a couple of stories which feature similar situations, and the consensus always seems to be that the force-absorbing properties of a waist belay can help dramatically with this kind of fall.
In reply to nwclimber: I know this post is going to generate some tales of daring do. But I remember being told a story by a freind and truly great climber of the 1940s and 50s that he held two climbers simultaneously on the Buchaille on a waist/body belay. But then again he was, and still is (92 years old) a bit of a climbing god as far as I'm concerned. RN
In reply to rossn: I should probably have clarified that one, I'm talking about the rope rapped directly across your back no through a waist belt. RN
In reply to nwclimber:
A friend of mine known as ‘Cuts’ held a leader fall on Orion Direct, back in the 70’s. He was on the belay above the basin [which is on at least one good nut]. ‘Skip’ was trying a variation and came off. Factor 2 fall if I remember rightly, ‘though we didn’t know what such things were in those days. He fell quite a way – at least 40 ft. or more. Waist belay and Dachstein mitts. I remember Cuts telling me that it wasn’t a severe shock load more like a fast building irresistible pull. The nut saved them. I think Cuts suffered some mild burns to his hands. Skip damaged his back. They managed to ab to the foot of the face with help from another team then choppered away.
Even earlier than that [in the late nineteen sixties] I fell off the crux on North Buttress on Shepherds. Climbing on a single hawser-laid nylon rope, ‘bowlined’ around my waist – probably equivalent of todays 9 or 10mm dia. I had a peg [insitu] as a runner, maybe 10 ft below. I was unhurt but shaken [my first leader fall]. My second said he hardly noticed any load on his waist belay. He wasn't wearing gloves of course [no-one did].
A friend of mine known as ‘Cuts’ held a leader fall on Orion Direct, back in the 70’s. He was on the belay above the basin [which is on at least one good nut]. ‘Skip’ was trying a variation and came off. Factor 2 fall if I remember rightly, ‘though we didn’t know what such things were in those days. He fell quite a way – at least 40 ft. or more. Waist belay and Dachstein mitts. I remember Cuts telling me that it wasn’t a severe shock load more like a fast building irresistible pull. The nut saved them. I think Cuts suffered some mild burns to his hands. Skip damaged his back. They managed to ab to the foot of the face with help from another team then choppered away.
Even earlier than that [in the late nineteen sixties] I fell off the crux on North Buttress on Shepherds. Climbing on a single hawser-laid nylon rope, ‘bowlined’ around my waist – probably equivalent of todays 9 or 10mm dia. I had a peg [insitu] as a runner, maybe 10 ft below. I was unhurt but shaken [my first leader fall]. My second said he hardly noticed any load on his waist belay. He wasn't wearing gloves of course [no-one did].
In reply to nwclimber:
Spent some time on Winter ML training fielding slides directly onto bucket seats and waist belays. Even with the "victim" sliding from about thirty feet above us and accelerating through slippy wet snow, we were able to hold these surprisingly easily. I'd acknowledge however that a launch into space might be a different matter...
The key issues we were taught were (a) wear a rucksack, (b) understand how to wrap the "dead" rope under and over your arm, and crucially (c) dont skimp on engineering the bucket seat!
Spent some time on Winter ML training fielding slides directly onto bucket seats and waist belays. Even with the "victim" sliding from about thirty feet above us and accelerating through slippy wet snow, we were able to hold these surprisingly easily. I'd acknowledge however that a launch into space might be a different matter...
The key issues we were taught were (a) wear a rucksack, (b) understand how to wrap the "dead" rope under and over your arm, and crucially (c) dont skimp on engineering the bucket seat!
In reply to Only a hill:
No idea, besides anything who uses shoulder belays? I guess you can hold just about anything with a belay device if your belay is good - it must have been in this case. I can ask Matt what he remembers, it may well have been that Jess hit soft snow of something like that to help slow things, and like I say he described it as more a slide than fall.
> That's insane! Out of interest, do you think the fall could have been held by a shoulder belay (or even with a belay device)?
No idea, besides anything who uses shoulder belays? I guess you can hold just about anything with a belay device if your belay is good - it must have been in this case. I can ask Matt what he remembers, it may well have been that Jess hit soft snow of something like that to help slow things, and like I say he described it as more a slide than fall.
In reply to TobyA:
It interests me because the shoulder belay was often used in the late 19th/early 20th century, before the waist belay really caught on (due to its greater safety). In the scene nwclimber describes in the OP, the belayer decides to use a waist belay in order to hold a large fall on steep snow/ice--an unusual tactic for the period.
Like you say I'd be surprised if anyone uses a shoulder belay these days!
It interests me because the shoulder belay was often used in the late 19th/early 20th century, before the waist belay really caught on (due to its greater safety). In the scene nwclimber describes in the OP, the belayer decides to use a waist belay in order to hold a large fall on steep snow/ice--an unusual tactic for the period.
Like you say I'd be surprised if anyone uses a shoulder belay these days!
In reply to Only a hill:
I was taught to climb in the 1960s using both a shoulder belay and a waist belay. Never held a leader fall on either, but arrested numerous seconds slipping.
I do still sometimes use one to bring up a second or if using a confidence rope in scrambling if I want to stand right at the edge of the top so that I can look down and watch the second climbing. Obviously I belay myself back to anchors.
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
>
> Like you say I'd be surprised if anyone uses a shoulder belay these days!
>
>
> Like you say I'd be surprised if anyone uses a shoulder belay these days!
I was taught to climb in the 1960s using both a shoulder belay and a waist belay. Never held a leader fall on either, but arrested numerous seconds slipping.
I do still sometimes use one to bring up a second or if using a confidence rope in scrambling if I want to stand right at the edge of the top so that I can look down and watch the second climbing. Obviously I belay myself back to anchors.
In reply to nwclimber:
We practise this a lot on winter courses and it is surprisingly effective as long as you belay dynamicaly and don't just lock off.
We've often done the same controlled sliding falls using a conventional belay device or with a direct belay. On weak snow or poorly frozen shattered rock the anchors have readily failed using direct or belay devices. However using dynamic waist or even shoulder belays the force is not even transmitted onto the dodgy anchors.
I personally have held factor 2 sliding falls in winter while standing and not even attached to a belay by very gradually slowing down the falling climber!
I should add this was in winter and on Grade 1/2 ground, wearing gloves and lot of thick clothing. It wasn't in the summer wearing a T-shirt on vertical or overhung rock!!!!
We practise this a lot on winter courses and it is surprisingly effective as long as you belay dynamicaly and don't just lock off.
We've often done the same controlled sliding falls using a conventional belay device or with a direct belay. On weak snow or poorly frozen shattered rock the anchors have readily failed using direct or belay devices. However using dynamic waist or even shoulder belays the force is not even transmitted onto the dodgy anchors.
I personally have held factor 2 sliding falls in winter while standing and not even attached to a belay by very gradually slowing down the falling climber!
I should add this was in winter and on Grade 1/2 ground, wearing gloves and lot of thick clothing. It wasn't in the summer wearing a T-shirt on vertical or overhung rock!!!!
In reply to nwclimber: Back in the early 70's I saw a leader fall from very near the top of One Step in the Clouds at Tremadoc. We watched in horror as he disappeared into the trees. We dashed across to see if we could help. The leader was fine but the second was in a bad way, he was using a waist belay.
John
John
In reply to nwclimber:
I caught a factor-2 fall with a waist belay (we called 'em hip belays). Total fall distance wasn't huge; the leader had climbed until his feet were just a few feet above my head when a handhold broke and he pitched off. He didn't hit anything until the belay stopped him. I was anchored and standing and the impact drove me down to my knees. The rope slipped a little bit, but I didn't get burns. Neither of us had any real injuries; we carried on with the climb.
I caught a factor-2 fall with a waist belay (we called 'em hip belays). Total fall distance wasn't huge; the leader had climbed until his feet were just a few feet above my head when a handhold broke and he pitched off. He didn't hit anything until the belay stopped him. I was anchored and standing and the impact drove me down to my knees. The rope slipped a little bit, but I didn't get burns. Neither of us had any real injuries; we carried on with the climb.
In reply to Trangia:
Out of curiosity I once tried this method of bringing up a second. It didn't feel very secure to me, but then again it wasn't a method I was familiar or comfortable with.
I often favour the direct belay over a spike when on easyish ground--often applicable on winter ridges as well, although of course it isn't a dynamic belay...
> I do still sometimes use one to bring up a second or if using a confidence rope in scrambling if I want to stand right at the edge of the top so that I can look down and watch the second climbing. Obviously I belay myself back to anchors.
Out of curiosity I once tried this method of bringing up a second. It didn't feel very secure to me, but then again it wasn't a method I was familiar or comfortable with.
I often favour the direct belay over a spike when on easyish ground--often applicable on winter ridges as well, although of course it isn't a dynamic belay...
In reply to nwclimber:
Waist belays were pretty much the standard belay prior to the introduction of other belay methods in the late 70's , 80's etc.
Some pretty big falls have been held by waist belays
Waist belays were pretty much the standard belay prior to the introduction of other belay methods in the late 70's , 80's etc.
Some pretty big falls have been held by waist belays
In reply to nwclimber:
My brother Pete took a 40-foot runnerless free-fall on "The Niche" on Lower Falcon in 1967. I was pulled upside-down but managed to stop him about 10 feet from the deck with rope burns that were more spectacular than serious. Also lucky that the rusty belay peg in the back of the niche held me. I believe Pete held a similar fall by Joe Tasker on Cloggy a few years later.
My brother Pete took a 40-foot runnerless free-fall on "The Niche" on Lower Falcon in 1967. I was pulled upside-down but managed to stop him about 10 feet from the deck with rope burns that were more spectacular than serious. Also lucky that the rusty belay peg in the back of the niche held me. I believe Pete held a similar fall by Joe Tasker on Cloggy a few years later.
1
In reply to Shani: Very reminiscent of a fall I took in the early 70's from Mousetrap at Gogarth. I was resting quite comfortably after the traverse when I squeezed the hold a little too tightly and it shattered in my hand. When I came to halt, after quite a long fall onto a manky peg, I looked all around in vain for my mate and ended up calling out for him. When he answered he was 15 feet above me just hanging on the waist belay. I don't recall how we managed to extracate ourselves.
In reply to nwclimber:
Oh the memories! Oh the pain! Have been on both ends of falls - hawser-laid nylon ropes, complete with gritty bits. I was introduced to waist belays as normal for the second, shoulder belays from above. Held a substantial leader fall on a waist belay on Rannoch Wall, nice spiral burns up the forearm and hand. Then fell off Catastrophe Grooves top pitch (climbing on recently broken ankle) and Nick, having led, managed to hold me on a shoulder belay as I swung for a while, with only minimal burn damage.
Modern belay devices are great, but multiple abseils in Yosemite wearing shorts using a Reverso caused burns in another part of the male body (if you are careless.)
Oh the memories! Oh the pain! Have been on both ends of falls - hawser-laid nylon ropes, complete with gritty bits. I was introduced to waist belays as normal for the second, shoulder belays from above. Held a substantial leader fall on a waist belay on Rannoch Wall, nice spiral burns up the forearm and hand. Then fell off Catastrophe Grooves top pitch (climbing on recently broken ankle) and Nick, having led, managed to hold me on a shoulder belay as I swung for a while, with only minimal burn damage.
Modern belay devices are great, but multiple abseils in Yosemite wearing shorts using a Reverso caused burns in another part of the male body (if you are careless.)
In reply to nwclimber:
I was third in a team when the leader fell just after leaving the belay. Factor 2 fall, tt wasn't very big, probably less than 10 feet, but it burned a nice shiny 11mm groove into the belayer's forearm.
I once fielded someone who took quite a long fall on steep ground, but she wasn't heavy and had a runner in. No harm done to either of us. However I wonder how much stretch those hawser-laid ropes had - they didn't seem to be very dynamic and I wonder to what extent the modern idea of fall factors can be applied.
I was third in a team when the leader fell just after leaving the belay. Factor 2 fall, tt wasn't very big, probably less than 10 feet, but it burned a nice shiny 11mm groove into the belayer's forearm.
I once fielded someone who took quite a long fall on steep ground, but she wasn't heavy and had a runner in. No harm done to either of us. However I wonder how much stretch those hawser-laid ropes had - they didn't seem to be very dynamic and I wonder to what extent the modern idea of fall factors can be applied.
In reply to Only a hill:
Wasn't a shoulder belay at least a contributory factor if not the cause of Maurice Linnel's death when belaying Colin Kirkus on Ben Nevis? I believe that during the fall the rope had become looped around his neck.
I don't have the Kirkus biography at hand, so am happy to be corrected.
> (In reply to TobyA)
> It interests me because the shoulder belay was often used in the late 19th/early 20th century, before the waist belay really caught on (due to its greater safety).
> It interests me because the shoulder belay was often used in the late 19th/early 20th century, before the waist belay really caught on (due to its greater safety).
Wasn't a shoulder belay at least a contributory factor if not the cause of Maurice Linnel's death when belaying Colin Kirkus on Ben Nevis? I believe that during the fall the rope had become looped around his neck.
I don't have the Kirkus biography at hand, so am happy to be corrected.
In reply to nwclimber: Took a sixty foot leader fall back in the sixties my mate held me no problem with a waist belay I had a lovely belt like bruise arond my waist from the No4 hawser laid rope and a compression fracture of 4th Thoracic vertbrae but managed to finish the route.second ascent of Thrombosis on Holwick Scar.Shouldnt have tried it in big boots after first ascent in Masters.
In reply to nwclimber:
Even nastier than waist and shoulder belays was kreutzsicherung where the belayer made in effect a half hitch under one arm and over the other shoulder. Topologically it is in fact a HMS tied using parts of ones body. http://www.1999er.gipfelbuch.de/images/kreuzsicherung.jpg
Even nastier than waist and shoulder belays was kreutzsicherung where the belayer made in effect a half hitch under one arm and over the other shoulder. Topologically it is in fact a HMS tied using parts of ones body. http://www.1999er.gipfelbuch.de/images/kreuzsicherung.jpg
In reply to jimtitt:
It looks a good idea though Jim in that it prevents the rope from being pulled up and off the belayer. I suspect it's not quite so good in practice.
I once took a FF2 fall off the second pitch of Mensor at Tremadog (do people still do it in two pitches?) I was a short way out from the belay and a hold broke. My girlfriend at the time held on and considerably slowed my descent till I landed in some brambles a fair way down. The burns to her hand were horrendous - a large deep Z-shaped wound. Rope burns, as anyone who has had one will know, take forever to heal, and this one was no exception. Sticht plates had certainly appeared at that time but I seem to remember that there was a reluctance to accept them on the grounds that they weren't dynamic enough. My girlfriend's belay was certainly dynamic...!
It looks a good idea though Jim in that it prevents the rope from being pulled up and off the belayer. I suspect it's not quite so good in practice.
I once took a FF2 fall off the second pitch of Mensor at Tremadog (do people still do it in two pitches?) I was a short way out from the belay and a hold broke. My girlfriend at the time held on and considerably slowed my descent till I landed in some brambles a fair way down. The burns to her hand were horrendous - a large deep Z-shaped wound. Rope burns, as anyone who has had one will know, take forever to heal, and this one was no exception. Sticht plates had certainly appeared at that time but I seem to remember that there was a reluctance to accept them on the grounds that they weren't dynamic enough. My girlfriend's belay was certainly dynamic...!
In reply to jon:
They do indeed. I remember observing with interest as the days went by and new blisters appeared under the polished groove in my hand from my one exceptional catch. I think there ended up being about 3 layers.
No sign of the scar anymore, interestingly
Interesting thread.....
> (In reply to jimtitt)
> Rope burns, as anyone who has had one will know, take forever to heal,
> Rope burns, as anyone who has had one will know, take forever to heal,
They do indeed. I remember observing with interest as the days went by and new blisters appeared under the polished groove in my hand from my one exceptional catch. I think there ended up being about 3 layers.
No sign of the scar anymore, interestingly
Interesting thread.....
In reply to jon: I've still got the scar on my left hand from holding my mates fall from near the top of Congo Corner at Stanage in about 72', when we were using waist belays, and a Viking Kernmantel rope - stopped him literally inches from the deck, and I ended up 10 feet above him - god bless Moac Original's!!!
In reply to Goucho:
On one of my first times climbing at Llanberis my leader got a bit lost, it was his first year climbing too, and kept on going with hardly any runners until the inevitable happened. It was the first pitch and luckily the rope, single 9mm perlon, snagged, stripping the outer core off completely... leaving only the inner holding.
He ended up dangling about 10 feet off the scree - large blocky stuff, and I was pulled off my feet as he was 11 or 12 stone and at the time I was about 2 stone lighter. There was no difficulty holding him with a waist belay, no burns as it was winter so I was wearing a thick pullover, or something similar, both of us were tied on directly with an ordinary bowline. The fall must have been about 100 feet. I don't think he came climbing after that.
It convinced me just how strong ropes are as this was one that should have been used double, back in 1970 so they must be even better today. It also taught me to put in runners where possible and to avoid just going on up when you are lost
On one of my first times climbing at Llanberis my leader got a bit lost, it was his first year climbing too, and kept on going with hardly any runners until the inevitable happened. It was the first pitch and luckily the rope, single 9mm perlon, snagged, stripping the outer core off completely... leaving only the inner holding.
He ended up dangling about 10 feet off the scree - large blocky stuff, and I was pulled off my feet as he was 11 or 12 stone and at the time I was about 2 stone lighter. There was no difficulty holding him with a waist belay, no burns as it was winter so I was wearing a thick pullover, or something similar, both of us were tied on directly with an ordinary bowline. The fall must have been about 100 feet. I don't think he came climbing after that.
It convinced me just how strong ropes are as this was one that should have been used double, back in 1970 so they must be even better today. It also taught me to put in runners where possible and to avoid just going on up when you are lost
In reply to Trangia:
I've only used shoulder belays for bringing up seconds, quite useful for pulling.
> I was taught to climb in the 1960s using both a shoulder belay and a waist belay.
I've only used shoulder belays for bringing up seconds, quite useful for pulling.
In reply to pneame and Gouch:
There's a sequel to my story... it happened on a Sunday afternoon and she had to be at work the next day so didn't want to go to the C&A hospital (Bangor?) - in fact, lots of people didn't want to go there, but for other reasons! So she waited till we got back to Brum and went to the General. By then her hand had curled into a fist. The nurse in the Emergency cut the bandages off and said 'Right, let's have a look' and grabbed her fingers and pulled her hand straight. I thought they were going to be two casualties that night!
There's a sequel to my story... it happened on a Sunday afternoon and she had to be at work the next day so didn't want to go to the C&A hospital (Bangor?) - in fact, lots of people didn't want to go there, but for other reasons! So she waited till we got back to Brum and went to the General. By then her hand had curled into a fist. The nurse in the Emergency cut the bandages off and said 'Right, let's have a look' and grabbed her fingers and pulled her hand straight. I thought they were going to be two casualties that night!
In reply to jon: Bangor Hospital!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You inevitably came out with more injury's than you went in with
You inevitably came out with more injury's than you went in with
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Hell's teeth
Hell's teeth
In reply to Bruce Hooker:I had two 80' falls in the late 50's one in the alps and one on Eagle Crag girdle Borrowdale directly onto my second. Both were using over the shoulder belay.. As they were such long falls never felt a thing due to the streach on the ropes (two 9mm).Only scratched my hand on the alp fall but broke my seconds little finger as I hit his hand on the way down..and lost my cap.
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