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Not seen an 'incident report' so strongly worded as this before. It beggars belief really.
http://www.lamrt.org.uk/incidents/2012/incident/63
Best wishes to the MR team member injured in the call out.
See this report on UKH too (Ed.)
http://www.lamrt.org.uk/incidents/2012/incident/63
Best wishes to the MR team member injured in the call out.
See this report on UKH too (Ed.)
In reply to MHutch: They should be charged for the second rescue!!
In reply to MHutch: Utter dickheads
In reply to MHutch: Meant to say, a couple of months ago I joined the OVMRO Support Group. Some of the tales I've heard do beggar belief and serve to bolster my respect for the "frontline" members.
In reply to MHutch:
Yes, noticed the beeb had picked this one up also
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-19456070
Yes, noticed the beeb had picked this one up also
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-19456070
In reply to MHutch: no words can describe what can only be described as idiocy
In reply to MHutch: Given that the team knew that they were looking for a party that they had already rescued and that the team are all volunteers could they not have simply ignored the call and gone to the pub?
If you volunteer to do something should you then be complaining when people provide you with opportunities to do whatever you've volunteered for?
pmc
If you volunteer to do something should you then be complaining when people provide you with opportunities to do whatever you've volunteered for?
pmc
In reply to baron:
if they were to ignore them then they wouldn't have been able to tell us how idiotic these people were.
> (In reply to MHutch) Given that the team knew that they were looking for a party that they had already rescued and that the team are all volunteers could they not have simply ignored the call and gone to the pub?
> If you volunteer to do something should you then be complaining when people provide you with opportunities to do whatever you've volunteered for?
>
> pmc
> If you volunteer to do something should you then be complaining when people provide you with opportunities to do whatever you've volunteered for?
>
> pmc
if they were to ignore them then they wouldn't have been able to tell us how idiotic these people were.
In reply to GrahamD:
It's difficult to have respect for anyone so stupid
> (In reply to MHutch)
>
> 75 years old and attempting the C2C - respect for that at least !
>
> 75 years old and attempting the C2C - respect for that at least !
It's difficult to have respect for anyone so stupid
In reply to MHutch: Shouldn't this be posted on the lost and found forum?
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
How about the word 'idiocy' :-P
> (In reply to MHutch) no words can describe what can only be described as idiocy
How about the word 'idiocy' :-P
In reply to GrahamD:
if they hadnt needed mountain rescue twice then yes.
> 75 years old and attempting the C2C - respect for that at least !
if they hadnt needed mountain rescue twice then yes.
In reply to MHutch: Its about time these challenge walks peaks etc> were programmed into a treadmill and these fools can do the same walk in the comfort of their own home
In reply to MHutch:
From an aborted attempt at the Ennerdale round a few weeks ago - camped all night below Pillar while a jet engine blew water onto/into/under my tent - walked out the next day back to the car park - the preparedness and quality of clothing of the C2C crew was a wonder to behold. The canadian/yank in tee shirt jeans and a pair of leather shoes with copy of C2C guidebook open at relevant chapter was stand out. 2-3 inches of water on the path adjacent to Ennerdale water and up to the Youth Hostel would of made for an 'interesting' start to day 2 of the plod.
D
From an aborted attempt at the Ennerdale round a few weeks ago - camped all night below Pillar while a jet engine blew water onto/into/under my tent - walked out the next day back to the car park - the preparedness and quality of clothing of the C2C crew was a wonder to behold. The canadian/yank in tee shirt jeans and a pair of leather shoes with copy of C2C guidebook open at relevant chapter was stand out. 2-3 inches of water on the path adjacent to Ennerdale water and up to the Youth Hostel would of made for an 'interesting' start to day 2 of the plod.
D
In reply to dissonance:
No one plans to be rescued - we all make errors of judgement. Sometimes the errors have bigger consequences than other times, thats all. I'm still impressed at the thought of a 75 year old giving it a go - certainly less frightening and dangerous than watching some 75 year olds try to negotiate the M25.
No one plans to be rescued - we all make errors of judgement. Sometimes the errors have bigger consequences than other times, thats all. I'm still impressed at the thought of a 75 year old giving it a go - certainly less frightening and dangerous than watching some 75 year olds try to negotiate the M25.
In reply to GrahamD:
certainly less frightening and dangerous than watching some 75 year olds try to negotiate the M25.
Well, they won't hurt other people walking. Hang on, except for the MR guy with the broken leg...
certainly less frightening and dangerous than watching some 75 year olds try to negotiate the M25.
Well, they won't hurt other people walking. Hang on, except for the MR guy with the broken leg...
In reply to ceri:
Its pretty unlucky for a MR member to break a leg, isn't it ? its not like there was anything particular about this rescue that made it more inherently dangerous for the team than any other rescue.
Its pretty unlucky for a MR member to break a leg, isn't it ? its not like there was anything particular about this rescue that made it more inherently dangerous for the team than any other rescue.
In reply to GrahamD:
And how many of us haven't continued with something despite an injury, hoping it might improve?
The only things I can see that are wrong with this group are their lack of map/compass/navigation skills/head torch. And there are unfortunately many people in the hills that the same applies to.
Not sure why this group has deserved to be singled out in this way.
And how many of us haven't continued with something despite an injury, hoping it might improve?
The only things I can see that are wrong with this group are their lack of map/compass/navigation skills/head torch. And there are unfortunately many people in the hills that the same applies to.
Not sure why this group has deserved to be singled out in this way.
In reply to Toreador:
Seriously? You did catch the part where they required rescue twice on two consecutive nights didn't you?
Seriously? You did catch the part where they required rescue twice on two consecutive nights didn't you?
In reply to Toreador:
Because having screwed up and needed to be rescued one day they did exactly the same thing, made exactly the same mistakes and even added an extra one with exactly the same result the next?
> Not sure why this group has deserved to be singled out in this way.
Because having screwed up and needed to be rescued one day they did exactly the same thing, made exactly the same mistakes and even added an extra one with exactly the same result the next?
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
and the bit where the MRT member bust his leg during the search? I wonder if the rescued family be making up any loss of earnings that might arise?
and the bit where the MRT member bust his leg during the search? I wonder if the rescued family be making up any loss of earnings that might arise?
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
No doubting the level of muppetry - just the 'holier than thou' level of judgement from the all-too-perfect posters on this forum.
No doubting the level of muppetry - just the 'holier than thou' level of judgement from the all-too-perfect posters on this forum.
In reply to 999thAndy:
That is very unlucky on the part of the MRT member but it could just as easily (in fact more easily) have happened whilst rescuing one of us know it all climbers from the bottom of a snow gulley.
> (In reply to Wiley Coyote)
>
> and the bit where the MRT member bust his leg during the search?
>
> and the bit where the MRT member bust his leg during the search?
That is very unlucky on the part of the MRT member but it could just as easily (in fact more easily) have happened whilst rescuing one of us know it all climbers from the bottom of a snow gulley.
In reply to deepsoup:
The second was due to an injury rather than muppetry. "Setting off on the day with an obvious injury that was not going to repair itself" - hindsight's a wonderful thing.
I'm not saying they're not idiots, just that there are plenty of other idiots out there who weren't ridiculed in this way.
As Graham said, the point that people have made about the MRT member's injury is plain daft. MRT injuries are unusual but a risk of the "job".
> You did catch the part where they required rescue twice on two consecutive nights didn't you?
The second was due to an injury rather than muppetry. "Setting off on the day with an obvious injury that was not going to repair itself" - hindsight's a wonderful thing.
I'm not saying they're not idiots, just that there are plenty of other idiots out there who weren't ridiculed in this way.
As Graham said, the point that people have made about the MRT member's injury is plain daft. MRT injuries are unusual but a risk of the "job".
In reply to MHutch:
Definition of Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
Definition of Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
In reply to Jon Wickham:
...unless you're trying to catch a low probability event in a stochastic system of course.
> (In reply to MHutch)
>
> Definition of Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
> Albert Einstein, (attributed)
>
> Definition of Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
> Albert Einstein, (attributed)
...unless you're trying to catch a low probability event in a stochastic system of course.
In reply to Jon Wickham:
I thought that was the definition of bouldering...
> Definition of Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I thought that was the definition of bouldering...
In reply to Toreador:
Re the strongly worded nature of the LAMRT report, I think this is the key passage: “a number of team members removed themselves from the room, because they could no longer listen to the list of excuses for their situation”. That kind of attitude is rare but does seem to be on the increase (perhaps connected with the idea that MRTs are statutory rather than voluntary bodies), and in conjunction with an injury to a team member it isn’t likely cast the casualties in a good light.
It’s a long time since I’ve seen or heard mention of an incident where “team members removed themselves from the room”. It brings to mind perhaps the most notorious of all UK rescues, a couple of decades ago in the Cairngorms: a three-day winter search for someone who several team members came to believe was deliberately lying low – and who later sold her story to a newspaper and didn’t give any of the money to the teams. That was a very different incident in lots of ways – and no one is suggesting that the C2C twerps last week had any malicious intent – but there was an injury to a team member on the Cairngorms callout as well (seemingly the chopper crew was asked to take the team member before the official casualty). The main similarity however is that some months later the Cairngorms casualty reappeared in a Braemar bar when some MRT people were also present, and a rescue-team friend told me that several of them “had to be restrained” from going over and confronting her.
The strength of feeling in these things run deep, and I can see why. A bit of humility and gratitude on the part of the casualty makes a huge difference.
> I'm not saying they're not idiots, just that there are plenty of other idiots out there who weren't ridiculed in this way.
Re the strongly worded nature of the LAMRT report, I think this is the key passage: “a number of team members removed themselves from the room, because they could no longer listen to the list of excuses for their situation”. That kind of attitude is rare but does seem to be on the increase (perhaps connected with the idea that MRTs are statutory rather than voluntary bodies), and in conjunction with an injury to a team member it isn’t likely cast the casualties in a good light.
It’s a long time since I’ve seen or heard mention of an incident where “team members removed themselves from the room”. It brings to mind perhaps the most notorious of all UK rescues, a couple of decades ago in the Cairngorms: a three-day winter search for someone who several team members came to believe was deliberately lying low – and who later sold her story to a newspaper and didn’t give any of the money to the teams. That was a very different incident in lots of ways – and no one is suggesting that the C2C twerps last week had any malicious intent – but there was an injury to a team member on the Cairngorms callout as well (seemingly the chopper crew was asked to take the team member before the official casualty). The main similarity however is that some months later the Cairngorms casualty reappeared in a Braemar bar when some MRT people were also present, and a rescue-team friend told me that several of them “had to be restrained” from going over and confronting her.
The strength of feeling in these things run deep, and I can see why. A bit of humility and gratitude on the part of the casualty makes a huge difference.
In reply to Toreador:
You may have a point about the 'holier than thou' thing perhaps, but this *is* UKC after all.
I've often been impressed (and a little bit humbled) at how non-judgemental MRT members are regarding numpties. They rarely seem to have a harsh word to say about even the daftest of them (in the case of the MRT members I know personally, even in private).
In this case the MRT certainly didn't seem to think they were ordinary idiots like plenty of others.
> I'm not saying they're not idiots, just that there are plenty of other idiots out there who weren't ridiculed in this way.
You may have a point about the 'holier than thou' thing perhaps, but this *is* UKC after all.
I've often been impressed (and a little bit humbled) at how non-judgemental MRT members are regarding numpties. They rarely seem to have a harsh word to say about even the daftest of them (in the case of the MRT members I know personally, even in private).
In this case the MRT certainly didn't seem to think they were ordinary idiots like plenty of others.
In reply to MHutch: If I've missed this somewhere I apologise... but did they ask to be rescued on either of these occasions? Were they ever in great peril or just having a bit of a mare?
In reply to Chris Harris: thats awsome and funny as hell.
In reply to deepsoup: I think MRT folk are more than aware, that a large percentage of the people they rescue, fall into the numpty/inexperienced/ ill-prepared category.
If every one who ventured into the hills was sensible, experienced, skilled and competent, then apart from those genuine accidents, which can happen to any of us, then the MRT wouldn't have as much to do.
Then again, maybe if we had a culture in the hills that if you screw up, you have to fend for yourself, then we wouldn't have as many numpty's venturing into the hills in the first place.
I think the very fact that the MRT folk are there, and so good at what they do, creates a somewhat complacent attitude.
If every one who ventured into the hills was sensible, experienced, skilled and competent, then apart from those genuine accidents, which can happen to any of us, then the MRT wouldn't have as much to do.
Then again, maybe if we had a culture in the hills that if you screw up, you have to fend for yourself, then we wouldn't have as many numpty's venturing into the hills in the first place.
I think the very fact that the MRT folk are there, and so good at what they do, creates a somewhat complacent attitude.
In reply to Goucho:
I'm not sure the effectiveness of the MRTs is a reason for complacency any more than a first world health service is a reason people choose to speed or smoke or drink.
Its probably the steady promotion of the outdoor 'lifestyle', better accessibility and better clothing.
I'm not sure the effectiveness of the MRTs is a reason for complacency any more than a first world health service is a reason people choose to speed or smoke or drink.
Its probably the steady promotion of the outdoor 'lifestyle', better accessibility and better clothing.
In reply to GrahamD: Overall though, its good people want to get out more.. we want a healthy society, an awareness of why we must be environmentally aware.. an unavoidable side affect will be such incidences.. but through education and other measures (the GR's on stiles etc) we can try to minimise...
But people generally have more spare time and more money than 20 years ago so are looking more to the outdoors. Overall that's a positive.
But people generally have more spare time and more money than 20 years ago so are looking more to the outdoors. Overall that's a positive.
In reply to IainRUK:
I agree - I only hope I feel up to doing something like this (walking the C2C, not getting rescued twice) when I'm 75.
I agree - I only hope I feel up to doing something like this (walking the C2C, not getting rescued twice) when I'm 75.
who called MR on the first night? it sounds like they made it back under there own steam?
In reply to Toreador:
I assume you have 'job' in inverted commas to draw attention to the fact that they are volunteers? Saying it's a risk of the "job" doesn't make it acceptable that these people put these volunteer's in danger of injury by being stupid - no map, no compass, no headtorch etc. The fact that they went out and did it all a second time is why people heard about it. They disregarded all advice, and ignored the fact that someone got injured when they went astray. That is why people are making a big deal out of it. If there hadn't been an injury on the second night, would they have had a third rescue team out looking for them the next night.
Put aside the MR member injury - what if a serious injury occurred elsewhere to someone else the next day and the team members were exhausted from searching all night for this group? That could compromise the rescue effort for the next people due to mental and physical fatigue. People don't seem to consider that teams occasionally get called out 3 or 4 times in 24 hours and don't grumble, they just get on with it.
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> [...]
> I'm not saying they're not idiots, just that there are plenty of other idiots out there who weren't ridiculed in this way.
>
> As Graham said, the point that people have made about the MRT member's injury is plain daft. MRT injuries are unusual but a risk of the "job".
> [...]
> I'm not saying they're not idiots, just that there are plenty of other idiots out there who weren't ridiculed in this way.
>
> As Graham said, the point that people have made about the MRT member's injury is plain daft. MRT injuries are unusual but a risk of the "job".
I assume you have 'job' in inverted commas to draw attention to the fact that they are volunteers? Saying it's a risk of the "job" doesn't make it acceptable that these people put these volunteer's in danger of injury by being stupid - no map, no compass, no headtorch etc. The fact that they went out and did it all a second time is why people heard about it. They disregarded all advice, and ignored the fact that someone got injured when they went astray. That is why people are making a big deal out of it. If there hadn't been an injury on the second night, would they have had a third rescue team out looking for them the next night.
Put aside the MR member injury - what if a serious injury occurred elsewhere to someone else the next day and the team members were exhausted from searching all night for this group? That could compromise the rescue effort for the next people due to mental and physical fatigue. People don't seem to consider that teams occasionally get called out 3 or 4 times in 24 hours and don't grumble, they just get on with it.
In reply to kilner:
It seems they went astray the first night, hence the MR team were asked to look for them, finding them in the wrong valley.
Could happen to anyone - especially without maps/compass/headtorches
> who called MR on the first night? it sounds like they made it back under there own steam?
It seems they went astray the first night, hence the MR team were asked to look for them, finding them in the wrong valley.
Could happen to anyone - especially without maps/compass/headtorches
In reply to MHutch:
I am surprised we do not see more of them. The number of times I have been asked which is the right way to go! And I am talking about mountains not where the nearest post office or supermarket is
I am surprised we do not see more of them. The number of times I have been asked which is the right way to go! And I am talking about mountains not where the nearest post office or supermarket is
In reply to Paul Everett:
We see a fair few struggling to get out of Ennerdale in the right direction. It's just rare they need help again the next day....
We see a fair few struggling to get out of Ennerdale in the right direction. It's just rare they need help again the next day....
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
A lot of what happens in climbing is seen as "idiocy" by non-climbers. Having a specialist perspective on the activity, as we do, does not make our point of view more valid than Joe Public's.
In this respect I have been guilty of "idiocy" on countless occasions over the years - but I have got away with it.
A lot of what happens in climbing is seen as "idiocy" by non-climbers. Having a specialist perspective on the activity, as we do, does not make our point of view more valid than Joe Public's.
In this respect I have been guilty of "idiocy" on countless occasions over the years - but I have got away with it.
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