UKH

Hi

Just wondered how on earth you manage to put in the hours and gain the necessary experience and finance it all? I'm unemployed atm, might get some temp work shortly but not confirmed yet. I really want to get qualified, and would like a notion of what climbers who managed to succeed actually did to cover the cost of transport/kit/food/accomm etc.

I'm guessing temp jobs, lots of borderline poverty stories, adventure centres and so on. Any advice would be welcome.

Thanks in advance
James.

In reply to jamesdavidson: Pretty much as you suggest, although I have met a few folk who hold down full-time, non outdoor industry jobs whilst working towards their MIA/MIC's (there was a vicar on my MIA training and a research scientist on my MIC training).

I gues that the majority are, however, working in the outdoor industry as you would expect and in a very wide range of jobs.

You get the hours in by working and playing hard in equal measures, with some people moving to live in specific areas for periods in order to work towards specific awards. For example folk might go to live in the Lakes or North wales to work towards their MIA and then up to Scotland for a few months/couple of years to work towards their winter ML/MIC.

I just ended up spending loads of cash on fuel to get up to Scotland as often as possible.

Not on it but the Guides scheme is a whole other proposition!

If you have the pre-requisites then the National Centres both run training/night watch schemes.

Not many specifics but I hope this helps... good luck & enjoy

Mark

In reply to jamesdavidson:

When I decided I wanted to move up from ML/SPA to the higher awards I considered how much time and money it would take and how possible it would be with my job. It looked like it would be very difficult so

I gave up my job
Sold my house
and went transient for a few years just climbing, mountaineering and other things. Lived in my van for a winter season in Scotland.
I did some work in gear shops now and again to keep some money coming in.

Now I have a good job working 4 days a week in Outdoor Education at a College and work Freelance the rest of the time. It is possible to do it alongside other jobs but I chose not to. I never really fancied doing the centre assistant route.

I have no regrets but that doesn't mean in a few years time I won't consider going back to a different job and just do a few days a month freelancing.

In reply to jamesdavidson: Since i've come back into the outdoors i've concidered doing my MIA training and assessment but at the moment i'm wondering whether its all worth the expense. I'm lucky that my wife is well paid so I freelance and get out to the crags whenever I can. I also feel a bit long in the tooth to be a centre assistant having done a range of highly challenging jobs from Soldier/medic to Close Protection work. I'm just wondering if any qualified types can fill me in as to whether the expense and effort put in is justified although I have to admit that the type of work seems alot more interesting than running sessions on single pitch crags.

In reply to climber_medic:
Going through the MIA at the moment, agree with what the others have said (their also further down the line than me) but I guess at the end of the day if you enjoy the work then you'll do whatever you need to. Never met anyone with MIA/MIC/BMG who does what they do for the money!

Is pricey though - I work for a school and they've been contributing to the costs, I would have struggled working full time in a non-related job in order to pay for it AND fit in the days requirement etc

If you enjoy it, I'd say do it regardless...

Jax

In reply to traditionalJax: Thats a fair point mate as at the moment I go out with people who are less experienced than myself and get a buzz out of getting them to the top of something. Therefore I will carry on as I am and do the course when I feel ready!!

Cheers

In reply to jamesdavidson:

Hi James,

not sure if I've interpreted your question correctly but for 2010 MIA prices are £920 for training (9 day course) and £650 for assessment (5 day course). As for the experience well surely you go climbing anyway so there's no extra cost there. To put it in perspective many people spend up to £1000 to get their D1 mini bus driving licence so MIA is a bit of a bargain really.

In reply to Mike Raine: Firstly, thanks for all the info. I'm so tempted just to jack everything in and go climbing lots. But there are really significant financial hurdles

In reply to Mike Raine: It's all fair and well saying that the courses don't cost a great deal compared with other certificates etc, but that's not what would stop me. It's the sheer level of experience required. Gear costs a lot, petrol certainly isn't cheap (I havn't got a car or a licence but have taken some lessons), and I need to eat and sleep somewhere as well.

Plus, there are seemingly no jobs. Like, literally, nothing. Unfortunately i'm not skilled (degree in history. Totally pointless. PGCE takes up too much time when I could be climbing).

I think the best thing is to jump from temp job to temp job, move round lots, living mostly in the back of a van. Sounds like a great way to escape office work!!

Once again, thanks for the replies

In reply to climber_medic: Its well worth getting into as the MIA type work is much more interesting and better paid than spa work. If you run NGB courses and have a lot of contacts you can expect to earn £30k plus. This does however take a long time to build up and you need to get to be known in your area. Working for the military running their MIA type stuff is really interesting as well as doing the AT type work. Basically the higher you go in the award schemes the keener the clients get and more fun you have. I started by cleaning bogs and bins at the Lodge! Luckily its got a bit better since then...

In reply to Mike Raine:

Agreed!

The only real expense is the cost of the training & assessment course.

I always find people who complain about the cost of getting hill days or climbing days. If that troubles you? Ask yourself are you logging days purely for a qualification or are you getting out and having a good time which just so happens to add to your log.

I was complimented on a rescent ML refresher for the number of days walking I had in rain/wind/mist etc...because people often don't go walking when the weather is bad. I aim to go climbing, if its too wet to climb I will walk. But I always get out.

In reply to Katie86: Actually maybe now I think about it, you do have a point. I'm not doing this for the logbook, but because I genuinely love the outdoors and hopefully might be able to pass on knowledge to someone else as eager one day.

Just so far from the damned mountains with barely any money to eat with, never mind get train tickets or pay for fuel.

I'll find a way.

Cheers

In reply to jamesdavidson:

You're approaching the subject from the wrong angle. A sort of paper chase angle. Now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that and it's the route a lot of people take. However, it would make you a better all round instructor or guide if you already had all the pre-requirements built up over a number of years of your own climbing, rather than saying 'right, what do I need to get this bit of paper', and then going out and blindly working through things. I've probably expressed myself very badly - my apologies if it doesn't make sense.

In reply to jamesdavidson:

Seems our posts crossed...

In reply to Dan Mckinlay: Dan. Thank you for the reply it is appreciated. I've done quite alot of assisting with an MIA during this season and am building my freelance clientele in and around the south-west area as it is easier for me to get down that way due to where I live. I was quite surprised as I only really started freelancing this year after 4 years away doing medical work and so far I have had a very good response from my clients. Their main points being that they like to employ people with a bit of life experience which I have in spades. In reference to working for the military, I like the idea of that having done alot with the R.M so in future that is one of the options I will be looking at but for now i'm just enjoying being out climbing and enjoying myself.

In reply to jamesdavidson:
Hi James
I decided to go for the MIA about four years ago, and since then have passed the ML, done all the consolidation, MIA training and am aiming for assessment in the summer. I'm a full time teacher. Teaching is roughly equivalent to a four day week, with most of the spare time in the summer - which is nice and handy for practicing with clients etc.
I'm sure the whole process can be done quicker, but for me, if I pass, it'll be about five years from no quals to MIA, which I don't consider to be too bad.
In terms of costs, most posters have it right - if you're serious enough about climbing to consider the MIA/MIC etc, then you'll have all the gear and be getting out climbing plenty anyway. I've bought a few bits of gear I didn't have before (eg ascender, gri-gri), but the only real costs have been on training and assessment at PYB.
Although I'm not too sure about Mike Raine's advice to get my MIA: "Ditch the wife and kids." I'm sure he was joking. Actually I'm not that sure.
Cheers
Rich

In reply to jamesdavidson:

Hi James

When I did my MIA in the 1990s I managed to get it 50% funded from various charitable trusts.

There is still funding around out there if you do your research.

Its a good life and it is possible to earn a good living but I should remphasise not just to go route chasing for the quals. Go into the mountains cos you love them and the experience and quals will follow.

Good luck and if you want any more info - get in touch

In reply to jamesdavidson:

If you live in the north you can get your ml Assessment partially funded, mine last year only cost me £120.
Any ideas on other funding would be welcome for wml?

In reply to jamesdavidson:

If its what you want you'll be able to do it!

I work with lots of people who on FE /HE courses who 'want to be MIA's, MIC & Guides', those who really really want it are making it or setting solid foundations, others can barely make it on a practical day. Its not what you want, its what you do!

I was lucky in that

A) I was a climber first so had more than the minimium needed
B) Wife with OK job
C) Simple lifestyle so money could be spent on fuels, guide books and gear
D) Each time I needed the money the right job / contract came up to pay for it, even did loads of volountary work for a charity, they secretly bid for the money for my MIA assessment!!! Really touched by that, would have worked out quicker to get paid, but it was a great gesture.
C) Gave myself a strict timescale to many drift out of it
D) I really, really wanted it and my wife was totaly supportive

"borderline poverty" depends on what you count as rich, tommorrow I shall cycle through frosty country lanes, take a group into the Welsh mountains, cycle back with a full moon to my warm and crazy dog and beautifuly pregnant wife, I am the richest man I know!!

Just consolidating my MIA training was a brilliant experience, money is just one measure of value.

In reply to Simon Wells:

Word!!!

Beautiful and wise words Simon, that's the spirit

In reply to jamesdavidson:

I think Simon Wells made a couple of key points. Like him, I had always been a climber and therefore had the right level of general experience when I started the MIA scheme. Like a few others who have replied, I had been in the military and had had the opportunity of teaching and coaching others in the mountains. Having decided on a change of career the MIA therefore seemed like a half open door waiting to be pushed open and passed through. Having embarked on the scheme I set myself very clear goals and a timetable for completing the award. I kept to these religiously and it always felt like I was making progress towards my goal.

I would contend though that gaining the award is only the beginning of the journey. I am not the hardest climber by a long way though do consider myself to be a decent instructor and this is what clients require. Since gaining the MIA 3 years ago, I feel I have developed hugely as an instructor by continued exposure to clients, reviewing what I do and how I do it, looking at what other instructors do and accepting personal flaws and taking action to correct them. Seeing people develop and become independent through your efforts is hugely satisfying. Look at the costs and commitment of gaining the award as challenges and not obstacles and you'll get there.

In reply to jamesdavidson: I'm not certain but I would imagine most folk progress into as a form of natural progression, rather than chase paper. If you are really struggling to aquire the prerequisites at any stage, then you need to consider if your heading down the right route.

In reply to jamesdavidson:

One other thought - if you have a like minded friend or collegue following the same journey, you can support each oither and have an equally commited partner for getting out.

In reply to Simon Wells: Incredible words of wisdom mate! I've been climbing for around two years and only just considered getting qualified. I've been walking in the mountains and wild camping for much, much longer but looking at the logbook it seems that I may need to gain some 'recent summer experience' (all of my summer walking and climbing was in Switzerland and therefore not valid). Totally psyched for it, there's loads of peaks and routes I want to do and quite frankly, having had a night to consider things, think I should personally man up, get out of the house, and back into what I love doing after messing around for the last 3 months.

Don't care about the cash, as long as I can eat, travel, climb/walk teach and sleep.

Thanks everyone for the outstanding advice. I'll see you all Outside...