UKC

There is some positive news to report regarding access to Dali's Hole in the Llanberis slate quarries.

Elfyn Jones, the BMC Access & Conservation Officer reports: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=58295

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Brilliant, well done.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Sounds promising. Good effort.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: nice work! what film was filmed there??

In reply to al123: Clash of the Titans..

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: This is great news - well done!

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Well done Elfyn, I'm glad things have moved on in such a positive way...

'The bolts would of course be replaced on the existing sports routes and belays.'

- before this is done hopefully the quality of the rock these bolts were placed in needs to be assessed.

When I removed these bolt hangers a good number of bolt placements and lower offs were in my opinion suspect / dodgy.

The safety of the rock on a few of these routes also needs addressing.

Some of the bolts / hangers were also not Stainless Steel as placed on most routes elsewhere in the quarry.

Hopefully the BMC (of which I am now a member!) will be fully aware of all this will take the necessary actions before opening up Dali's for business once again.

Well done once again and lets hope it all works out.

Ian

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: The BMC doing what it does best - ACCESS !

In reply to Sl@te Head:

and the best news is Ian's joined the BMC, Hurrah!!

I hope other lingerers will follow!

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Just saw that. Are they taking the piss?!?!

In reply to Aly:
why do you say that?

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:


Excellent job Elfyn. This is great news not just for Dalis hole but for the whole quarry. Brilliant.

In reply to Mike Raine:

lol!

Good going, well done

In reply to IainRUK:

why ? why is it brilliant, it`s a crappy little hole with one decent route, get a grip and climb something else instead, plenty more bolted routes elswhere !!!!!!!!

In reply to mr mills: ohh grumpy...get a grip being so aggressive over a crappy little hole...never climbed there - only climbed in the other areas of the quarry... I just think a formal agreement will hopefully prevent further problems with the quarries. Climbers seem to forget that 2 of North Wales' most important fell running routes use the quarries, so yes access was a concern, add to that one of the great hill reps sessions its a very important quarry to us..so yes I think it's brilliant there looks like being an end to the antogonism.

In reply to IainRUK:

Not being aggressive Ian, just expressing my opinion, I would not think it would affect any other areas in the quarries or the fell running routes why should it ?
As for the BMC taking over Dali`s Hole well, as a member I dont want my membership money going to waste just to open up what could become a headache for the BMC, how will they be able to control who enters the area ?
The isues that First Hydro had was the concern of the general public entering Dali`s Hole, how will the BMC solve this problem ?

In reply to mr mills: Really? I think this had real potential to spiral. The fell running routes rely on FHC's good will. Which there is plenty of. All they have to do is shift a few piles of slate, knock down a few inclines and the paddy route would be changed for ever. However even during the filming and access issues if you approached and asked them they were very responsive to allowing access. TBH I think they do almost all that can be practicably expected of them regards allowing climbing in the quarries.

If the solution is a key code (from what has been mentioned this is the solution elsewhere) and fenced off hole, then fair enough.

TBH my interest in climbing at Dali's is limited, there are a few routes my that interest me, but my main concern was knock on affects.

In reply to mr mills: Agree. I would have thought a more practical, safe and sensible agreement would have been to keep the groups and loose, blocky and quite frankly shitty low-grade sport out of Dali's (and the quarries in general).

I would have thought the pragmatic approach of tolerating individual climbers climbing at their own risk (pretty much keeping the status quo as of a few years back really) would have been a lot easier to agree to than giving carte blanche for all manner of groups, beginners and picnicking non-climbers to muck around in a genuinely somewhat dangerous environment.

In reply to mr mills: spot on

In reply to IainRUK: but there would have been none of this i.e. no threat to access if people had just recognised there was a problem following the addition of these routes and accepted that they would have to go elsewhere for the greater good.

In reply to steve456:

My thoughts exactly.

E

In reply to ksjs: I agree, I'm not sure how they are mutually exclusive views... Hence why I haven't climbed there. However that wasn't working early on, I think it actually was for the last few months, but maybe that was because people thought the BMC were making progress.

Damaging of the property, the bad mouthing of FHC was escalating the situation and I think Elfyn and the BMC had their hands forced somewhat here. I don't think they had much choice than to step in.

FHC don't actually pose that much a threat if people stay out of site, leave if asked to and be polite to the guys. They could do so much more to stop climbing, even taking action to try to stop the guidebooks. Damage the routes and ban access full stop. They don't.

I think the main thing to come from this is low grade sport does have a market (whether it should or not is a different argument - and yes I used the word market..), but it was popular. Climbing is getting popular, low grade sport allows people a taste of climbing outside. I know people harp on about serving their apprenticeship and seconding. Then those should go out and offer to do so..I know many who are always after being taken out. I've done it a few times, but I'm not overly keen on doing that too much to be honest.

In reply to Enty: Yeah, low grade shit sports routes are popular. That just demonstrates the appeal and the lack of quality low grade sport venues. Whether low grade sport should exist isn't really the point here. IMO it should. There are some decent lower grade routes in the quarries now though.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: This is good news and very promising for the rest of the Quarry. In the light of recent threats from First Hydro to close pretty much all access etc this is a step in the right direction for sure. Regardless of quality etc of the routes at this location it is the bigger picture that needs to be considered. It only takes one company/landowner to start making waves and others soon fall in line. Vixen Tor anyone?
So well done Elfyn and BMC Cymru

In reply to mr mills:

I agree - it has a couple of good routes and a load of choss. How much membership money is being used so that people can make money out of taking groups there?

cheers
mark

In reply to Mark Westerman: That's a good point..should commercial groups therefore pay...

But also how much of the BMC's funding comes from lower grade climbers, and therefore should the BMC also support their development..

In reply to Mark Westerman:

A bit like Horseshoe then...

In reply to Toreador:

yeah but I go to Horseshoe so thats different...

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:
Can't believe some of the negativity on this thread

Dali's hole was a popular venue. Many of the people going there were BMC members. Some of you may feel disdain, contempt even, for the people who enjoyed going there. Well tough. Take your elitist pretensions elsewhere. Dalis. like horseshoe, serves a purpose.

You should also look at the bigger picture. As climbing becoming more popular, we need to be looking at maximising the potential of quarries. So when a quarry owner says "we don't want climbing because we don't want the liability", then obviously the BMC's first response is "you have nothing to worry about". And if the quarry owner then says to the BMC "well you take responsibility", hands up all those who who think the BMC should say "ooh, no way, too risky" ?

Well done to Elfyn and the team on this. Never climbed at Dali's, maybe never will, but more than happy to see my membership money being spent on things like this

In reply to Chris the Tall: I'm with you to a point. Access in Wales seems to have a really effective champion at the moment and this can only be a really good thing.

but..

On a more strategic level, I worry that the BMC is too reactive, and perhaps too responsive to vociferous activists - the "Squeaky Wheel" effect. In terms of spending money and taking on long term responsibilities (liabilities?), I'm not sure the organisation always takes the long term view. Perhaps what the BMC needs is a more detailed aquisition strategy that takes a more objective view of what it should be taking on, rather than becoming an emergency "landlord of last resort". Perhaps to better protect access for climbing and walking in England and Wales as a whole, the loss of Dalis Hole is a price to pay?

In reply to Chris the Tall:
Agree, basically. I've taken a happy beginner to Dali's. Also if securing Dali's means more secure access to the quarries of Australia and California 'over the same fence' it's a small price to pay. (Two awesome chasms for the price of one dross hole).

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I don't feel disdain or contempt for anyone who enjoys climbing at whatever grade. I was just making the point that the routes are poor and most of the time its used commercially.

So unless the BMC have a bottomless pit of money, then I guess we have the right to comment about where and when they spend it?

cheers
mark

In reply to John Henry Bull:

There are many areas in which you can take beginners in the quarries now with the development of up to a 100 or so new low grade sport routes.

Personally I believe it was unjust for F/H to close Dali`s Hole as the general public scramble all over the place regardless !

Now that they have come up with what they considered to be the solution to the problem and as I know up to now the only problem in the quarries I really dont get it, all this nonsense, I really dont know why I bother to express an opinion on here sometimes with all the do-gooders trying to be politically correct all the time, just move on !!!

In reply to toad: I think you are right. I'm also worried about things like a 'BMC statement on wind farms'..I'm not sure such a diverse group should have a set policy..unless done through postal voting possibly. I think the way it is currently run could allow the vocal minority to hold too much sway.

In reply to Mark Westerman:

Yup, a pile of .... has been made an expensive pile of.... by the addition of some bolts and the investment of many bmc man hours

How much membership money is being used so that people can make money out of taking groups there?


Very, very good point there. How many bmc members does this actually benefit against how many paying customers. Perhaps the bmc needs a "commercial membership rate"?

In reply to IainRUK: from what i understand FHC have done all they can to allow climbing and be co-operative.

the problem here is (was) some people's (climbers) lack of perspective and sensitivity. climbers generally manage to observe a range of access limitations and arrangements e.g. bird restrictions, sticking to paths, parking spots and times etc. Dali's didnt have to be any different but it was and all for the sake of something that was on offer elsewehere with none of the attendant issues.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

I'm sorry that this development has upset some of you, believe me there was a lot of soul searching. We really felt we needed to do something in response to concerns voiced at a BMC Cymru/Wales meetings by local climbers. We had tried appealing to climbers to limit the numbers at Dali's Hole but this hadn't worked. There are lots of climbers out there, not just commercial groups, who were really enjoying climbing the routes there and First Hydro were keen to do a deal and that is just one of many things that the Welsh Access Officer has been working on. I don't think there is any large cost issues for the BMC but whatever they are they will be less than Wilton, Longridge or Horseshoe.

The BMC does work on behalf of a broad church of people and I hope we can respect that different people want the BMC to do different things.

Mike Raine
Chair BMC Cymru/Wales

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Have to agree with Mike Raine on this. The decision to do this was based on BMC members who turn up to the area meeting to discuss such issues. The majority of the members agreed that this was the right path to follow, and it was put forward at National Council meetings, which is made up from BMC members all around the country. If you feel strongly over these issue you need to attend the meetings and voice concerns.

BMC is a membership organisation, so fees are used on how the membership sees fit. From my understanding this crag won't be breaking the BMC bank, and is hardly costing anything to manage (there are not buying it!).

The crag may not be the best in the area by far, but it serves a purpose to those who enjoy convenient, low grade sport climbing, and that's why at its prime it became one of the most popular crags in North Wales.

Bryn

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I wouldn't get too het up Chris about negative comments on this thread. The majority of people who have read the news itemm over 3,500 - http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=58295

....have not commented.

I'm guessing that many who are now aware of the progress at Dali's see the work the BMC has done at Dali's as very positive indeed.


And many who went there and who will go there in the future, are probably not BMC members (yet!) but will benefit from the work that the BMC has done.

The BMC works hard for all climbers whether members or not, and whatever style of climbing they prefer and of all ethical hues.

I've climbed at Dali's. I thought it was a great little spot and I can most certainly see the attraction of lower grade sport routes.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:


I'm on Kalymnos and it's raining - I've got to vent my frustrations somewhere !!!

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Oh noooooo. Hope it clears up soon Chris.

In reply to Mike Raine:
Incidentally, I wonder what actually are the annual costs to the BMC of of Wilton, Longridge and Horseshoe, plus Aldery, Bwlch-y-Moch and whatever else the BMC owns? As a member I'm now quite interested, but I have no idea.

In reply to John Henry Bull: I'd be very interested to know, mostly because land holding isn't explicit in the accounts - I didn't know 'till I just looked at the accounts, for example, that the BMC owns Wilton via a holding company. Is ownership of other sites similarly detached, and why?

In reply to toad:
It's not at all clear is it? Looks like it might be included in the (in 2009) £251K covering 'Cost of specalist programmes', but no breakdown is given.

In reply to toad:

The forecast cost for the current year for "managed rocks" is £4,500

- I didn't know 'till I just looked at the accounts, for example, that the BMC owns Wilton via a holding company. Is ownership of other sites similarly detached,
Yes

and why?
It separates the management functions, as a Director of the BMC I don't need to get involved in the minutiae of crag management.

In reply to scott titt:
Next to nothing then!
One of the BMC's reasons for reluctance to get involved in managing Wilton was any potential leverage it lent to landowners in future access deals, than might push up the cost. Is that really an issue, given this minute outlay?

In reply to scott titt: Thanks for that. I was Estate Manager for a land holding charity (a much bigger landowner that the BMC) for a number of years and that figure strikes me as being quite low, but obviously I'm not privy to the intentions for the coming year, or how income/expenditure from statutory grants and schemes etc is accounted for.

Is there a more detailed description or breakdown of how the BMC landholding is managed? I'm afraid the separate holding company element has piqued my professional interest, as it isn't a model I'm particularly familiar with. I appreciate that it's well outside the remit of this thread, though. ( and shamefully, I'm afraid to say my first thought was that the BMC was using it to try to limit liability).

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Some very interesting (and valid!)comments and concerns on this thread, many of which have been discussed at the Wales Area meetings and then followed up by discussions and scrutiny by the BMC's Land Managment Group.

In response to the comments regarding the BMC's role in managing/aquiring crags then there is a quite a rigorous process before the BMC takes on the management/ownership or lease of any site. This is all overseen by the Land Managment Group, a small but professional group of individuals who advise and oversee the managment and care of BMC owned and managed crags. This group is made up of land mangment experts, BMC's legal advisors, and access volunteers.
Essentially the direct management or aquisition of land by the BMC is regarded as an absolutely last resort in order to protect access to a site, and not an action that is taken without considerable debate and consideration of the long term implications of such action.

The BMC owned crags are held by subsidiary companies, partially for historical reasons, partially for legal reasons and in a couple of cases because the "holding company" is also a registered charity, which the BMC is not. The Land Managment Group is trying to simplify this as a matter of urgency.

Traditionally the costs associated with maintaining these sites has been absorbed into the BMC's general "Access & Conservation" work programme, but part of my remit as an Access & Conservation officer (partially due to my previous life being a Land Manager for a large conservation charity) is to set up and implement a more professional land mangment process for all BMC sites, not just those in Wales.
This will include setting up local advisory/managment groups for each site (if they don't already exist), made up of BMC members, local climbers, and if required specialists from other organsiations. It will also involve establishing baseline budgets for each site, based on an estimated annual work programme.
The reality is that the annual cost of looking after BMC owned/managed crags is incredibly low compared to other organisations (and we aim to keep costs low!), mainly due to the excellent work done by volunteers such as Henry Folkard or Mike Raine.

Elfyn Jones
BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Thanks from me Elfyn, keep up the good work. Colin.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Thanks very much. That was an excellent and clear answer and has reassured me that the BMC are taking a much more professional approach to land management. Volunteers are important, but I suspect the BMC is going to owe some of its staff a big vote of thanks in the future.

Helpful and informative - Take note, directors who don't bother with the details:

The BMC owned crags are held by subsidiary companies, partially for historical reasons, partially for legal reasons and in a couple of cases because the "holding company" is also a registered charity, which the BMC is not. The Land Managment Group is trying to simplify this as a matter of urgency.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:
Thanks for that excellent summary. Good to hear. What a complex world we live in - the simple and instinctive reaction is to get away from it and 'just go climbing'. Not that easy eh; hats off to the BMC and volunteers for making it more widely possible in these ways.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Thanks for that. Whether I agree with the purchase/management of Dali's or not, its good to see the descision isn't taken lightly and the cost is small.

cheers
mark

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Thanks for that response Elfyn, explained clearly the role of the BMC in the aquisition of land managment/ownership,
Keep up the good work !!