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After this weekends' Great Climb, when Dave MacLeod and Tim Emmett successfully climbed a new route on Sron Uladail, there are two more climbing events on the TV this week: Eiger Wall of Death and Andy K and Karen Darke on the Michael Ball Show. On September 24th the climbing film The Wildest Dream is released starring Leo Houlding and Conrad Anker. Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=57570
In reply to UKC News: I notice that according to the website of the wildest dream, its being released at ONE cinema in the whole of the UK, London! When will the world realise that there is more to the UK than just London maybe UKC can run some sort of campaign to get it released more nationally?
In reply to carrot_boy:
Eh?
"The Wildest Dream will be in UK cinemas from Friday 24th September. We will be posting details of where it is showing on this page, as soon as they become available."
Eh?
"The Wildest Dream will be in UK cinemas from Friday 24th September. We will be posting details of where it is showing on this page, as soon as they become available."
In reply to stewieatb:
Did anyone hear Leo Houlding on Radio 4 this morning.... he wasn't giving much away, maybe pee'd off that John Humphries kept calling him Lee
Did anyone hear Leo Houlding on Radio 4 this morning.... he wasn't giving much away, maybe pee'd off that John Humphries kept calling him Lee
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I think you may have failed to emphasise the most important part of this newscast.
The Wildest Dream stars Alan Rickman!
I think you may have failed to emphasise the most important part of this newscast.
The Wildest Dream stars Alan Rickman!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Was just that Humphreys obviously wanted him to give an opinion of whether he thought M&I had reached the top and asked twice but Leo Houlding was very much sitting on the fence
Was just that Humphreys obviously wanted him to give an opinion of whether he thought M&I had reached the top and asked twice but Leo Houlding was very much sitting on the fence
In reply to UKC News:
Another recommendation if anybody's willing to to a bit of googling: about three years ago on German TV I saw a superb docu-drama: the Kurz Eigerwand attempt, re-enacted by a group of young Swiss guides using period costume & gear (and evidently not having an easy time of it). Very well done, but I can't recall what it was called and ahve no idea whether it wouldbe available in English. Well worth seeking out for anybody who can understand a bit of German, however.
(A quick google suggests I might be thinking of the feature film "Nordwand", but I'm not sure)
Another recommendation if anybody's willing to to a bit of googling: about three years ago on German TV I saw a superb docu-drama: the Kurz Eigerwand attempt, re-enacted by a group of young Swiss guides using period costume & gear (and evidently not having an easy time of it). Very well done, but I can't recall what it was called and ahve no idea whether it wouldbe available in English. Well worth seeking out for anybody who can understand a bit of German, however.
(A quick google suggests I might be thinking of the feature film "Nordwand", but I'm not sure)
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
That probably *was* a bit annoying, but then Jim Naughtie might be equally pee'd off by people referring to him as John Humphries.
> (In reply to stewieatb)
>
> Did anyone hear Leo Houlding on Radio 4 this morning.... he wasn't giving much away, maybe pee'd off that John Humphries kept calling him Lee
>
> Did anyone hear Leo Houlding on Radio 4 this morning.... he wasn't giving much away, maybe pee'd off that John Humphries kept calling him Lee
That probably *was* a bit annoying, but then Jim Naughtie might be equally pee'd off by people referring to him as John Humphries.
In reply to AlanLittle: do you mean 'Drama in der Eiger Nordwand'
aka 'The Beckoning Silence'?
youtube.com/watch?v=AmjJBu0xiwc&
aka 'The Beckoning Silence'?
youtube.com/watch?v=AmjJBu0xiwc&
In reply to AlanLittle:
I'm confident you are right in thinking 'Nordwand'. I dl'd this last year in 720p, unfortunately no subtitles. It was worth watching due to the fact it seemed quite true to the accounts I have read and didn't seem to ham it up in any way.
I'm confident you are right in thinking 'Nordwand'. I dl'd this last year in 720p, unfortunately no subtitles. It was worth watching due to the fact it seemed quite true to the accounts I have read and didn't seem to ham it up in any way.
In reply to Lurkio:
Though John Humphrys probably also gets pee'd off by people calling him John Humphries
> (In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC))
> [...]
>
> That probably *was* a bit annoying, but then Jim Naughtie might be equally pee'd off by people referring to him as John Humphries.
> [...]
>
> That probably *was* a bit annoying, but then Jim Naughtie might be equally pee'd off by people referring to him as John Humphries.
Though John Humphrys probably also gets pee'd off by people calling him John Humphries
In reply to UKC News:
You can watch Eiger Wall of Death today on BBC 4 at 9.00pm and it will be repeated on Thursday (2nd Sept) at 2.40am and Sunday (5th Sept) at 12.25am
You can watch Eiger Wall of Death today on BBC 4 at 9.00pm and it will be repeated on Thursday (2nd Sept) at 2.40am and Sunday (5th Sept) at 12.25am
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Interesting.
In reply to UKC News:
Great documentary!
Great documentary!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Ok. I really liked the old footage they used but thought the over emotionalising of the mountain was unnecessary.
Ok. I really liked the old footage they used but thought the over emotionalising of the mountain was unnecessary.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Wow! Stunning, I'm still shaking - partly because i could so easily have missed it, had I not out of pure TV addictedness scanned around for anything else happening after "Coast"... (can someone please organise an email or text alert system for climbing-related TV/Radio features?)
The main joy for me was hearing all these legendary chaps talk about their personal experiences of and attitudes to the Eiger, plus the archive pictures.
Wow! Stunning, I'm still shaking - partly because i could so easily have missed it, had I not out of pure TV addictedness scanned around for anything else happening after "Coast"... (can someone please organise an email or text alert system for climbing-related TV/Radio features?)
The main joy for me was hearing all these legendary chaps talk about their personal experiences of and attitudes to the Eiger, plus the archive pictures.
In reply to grindelwald:
Quite an emotional face really - lots of people have died on it, many have have hard times on it, all I'm sure have felt relief and joy on the summit.
How do you reflect such emotion in words, images and moving images?
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> Ok. I really liked the old footage they used but thought the over emotionalising of the mountain was unnecessary.
> Ok. I really liked the old footage they used but thought the over emotionalising of the mountain was unnecessary.
Quite an emotional face really - lots of people have died on it, many have have hard times on it, all I'm sure have felt relief and joy on the summit.
How do you reflect such emotion in words, images and moving images?
In reply to Fishmate:
I've got "Nordwand" on DVD with English subtitles, it's called "North Face" (reasonably) and the director is Philipp Stoelzl. It's a good thriller and very well made with quite convincingly imagined personal and political background stories, but it is fictionalised (it's got Toni Kurtz's girlfriend standing about 5 feet from him when he dies...).
I've got "Nordwand" on DVD with English subtitles, it's called "North Face" (reasonably) and the director is Philipp Stoelzl. It's a good thriller and very well made with quite convincingly imagined personal and political background stories, but it is fictionalised (it's got Toni Kurtz's girlfriend standing about 5 feet from him when he dies...).
In reply to SomerKate:
Part of our brief at the UK News page is to inform climbers what is happening in the world of climbing, that includes climbing on the TV.
That is why we ran a news item about The Eiger: Wall of Death and it has been there for three days. Check the news page at UKClimbing.com as well as the forums!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
Over 6,000 people have read this: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=57570
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Wow! Stunning, I'm still shaking - partly because i could so easily have missed it, had I not out of pure TV addictedness scanned around for anything else happening after "Coast"... (can someone please organise an email or text alert system for climbing-related TV/Radio features?)
>
> Wow! Stunning, I'm still shaking - partly because i could so easily have missed it, had I not out of pure TV addictedness scanned around for anything else happening after "Coast"... (can someone please organise an email or text alert system for climbing-related TV/Radio features?)
Part of our brief at the UK News page is to inform climbers what is happening in the world of climbing, that includes climbing on the TV.
That is why we ran a news item about The Eiger: Wall of Death and it has been there for three days. Check the news page at UKClimbing.com as well as the forums!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
Over 6,000 people have read this: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=57570
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Yes I know there is a lot of emotion in the summits, deaths etc on the mountain (I personally know of 2 people who have been killed on it). I just thought, in my opinion, that they went on and on about the mountain itself as though it were a living thing and in the end it became irritating. I think the Beckoning Silence was a far superior docu/drama which also gave a heightened sense of emotion but done in such a way it was almost an understatement.
Yes I know there is a lot of emotion in the summits, deaths etc on the mountain (I personally know of 2 people who have been killed on it). I just thought, in my opinion, that they went on and on about the mountain itself as though it were a living thing and in the end it became irritating. I think the Beckoning Silence was a far superior docu/drama which also gave a heightened sense of emotion but done in such a way it was almost an understatement.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Didn't spot this thread, i thought the interview footage with Brian Nally was unreal, so painful to watch.
Did anyone else get a real sense of the world dropping away when they took the camera out of the stollenloch?
Didn't spot this thread, i thought the interview footage with Brian Nally was unreal, so painful to watch.
Did anyone else get a real sense of the world dropping away when they took the camera out of the stollenloch?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
My favourite Eiger film, I couldn't fault it.
Don't get me started on the later 'Nordwand' though
My favourite Eiger film, I couldn't fault it.
Don't get me started on the later 'Nordwand' though
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Watching that on youtube right now, the very end of toni Kurz's rescue is just hard to watch
> (In reply to grindelwald)
>
> I watched Beckoning Silence again the other day, it is good isn't it?
>
> I watched Beckoning Silence again the other day, it is good isn't it?
Watching that on youtube right now, the very end of toni Kurz's rescue is just hard to watch
In reply to UKC News: It was very good I think they should a series showing more of theactual climbs say half hour programs.
In reply to Graham T:
Brian Nally's interview was heart breaking.
Brian Nally's interview was heart breaking.
In reply to grindelwald:
Yep, having watched that and the beckoning silence tonight, I am wondering if I will get to sleep tonight
Yep, having watched that and the beckoning silence tonight, I am wondering if I will get to sleep tonight
In reply to SomerKate:
Fear not, nothing is ever shown once on TV these days
For those who missed it and for all insomniacs it's repeated on:
BBC 4 2:40am Thu 2 Sep
BBC 4 12:25am Sun 5 Sep
and of course
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00tlwj3/The_Eiger_Wall_of_Death/
Fear not, nothing is ever shown once on TV these days
For those who missed it and for all insomniacs it's repeated on:
BBC 4 2:40am Thu 2 Sep
BBC 4 12:25am Sun 5 Sep
and of course
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00tlwj3/The_Eiger_Wall_of_Death/
In reply to grindelwald:
What a fantastic and thoughtful film. Just watched it on iPlayer. Really enjoyed it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00tlwj3/b00tlwg9
What a fantastic and thoughtful film. Just watched it on iPlayer. Really enjoyed it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00tlwj3/b00tlwg9
In reply to UKC News: I thought it was a good overview of the history of Eiger North Face climbing. Necessarily brief, I suppose.
The odd part was that we saw quite a large section with Kenton Cool and Neil Brodie, who were seemingly preparing for an ascent. As a taste of what was to come, they filmed a quick reconnaissance via the Stollenloch.
Whilst this gave great footage of the contrast between the calm and cosy railway tunnel and what lies on the other side of the magic doorway; unexpectedly, that was all we got. No actual attempt on the route. I was left with the impression that they ran out of time before conditions became suitable. So, rather than throw out what they had, they decided to show a bit of it and then include more history to fill out the gap left by the non-climb.
Nevertheless, good stuff; particularly the authoritative and articulate monologues from Venables, Bonington and Cave. Not too much on the philosophy of why such a climb is justified (or otherwise) either, which tends to become as pointless and tedious as the perennial "are the Turner prize entries really art"?
The odd part was that we saw quite a large section with Kenton Cool and Neil Brodie, who were seemingly preparing for an ascent. As a taste of what was to come, they filmed a quick reconnaissance via the Stollenloch.
Whilst this gave great footage of the contrast between the calm and cosy railway tunnel and what lies on the other side of the magic doorway; unexpectedly, that was all we got. No actual attempt on the route. I was left with the impression that they ran out of time before conditions became suitable. So, rather than throw out what they had, they decided to show a bit of it and then include more history to fill out the gap left by the non-climb.
Nevertheless, good stuff; particularly the authoritative and articulate monologues from Venables, Bonington and Cave. Not too much on the philosophy of why such a climb is justified (or otherwise) either, which tends to become as pointless and tedious as the perennial "are the Turner prize entries really art"?
In reply to UKC News:
Anyone else find that picture of Kurtz haunting?
Anyone else find that picture of Kurtz haunting?
In reply to UKC News: Haven’t seen it mentioned on here but the Asgard Project is going to be on Freeview channel Quest 26/09/10 http://www.climbmagazine.com/asgard_project_discovery_channel.aspx never known so much mountaineering/climbing on the telly.
In reply to UKC News:
Did anyone else notice Chris Boningtons comment (something like) "The TV and viewing public have lost the taste/understanding for hard climbing"
Thats funny considering what we all watched over the weekend.
I think the one with Joe Simpson is better.
SDB
Did anyone else notice Chris Boningtons comment (something like) "The TV and viewing public have lost the taste/understanding for hard climbing"
Thats funny considering what we all watched over the weekend.
I think the one with Joe Simpson is better.
SDB
In reply to ShinyDiscoBalls: what he was saying was that the press can't easily understand the point of today's hard climbs, and the Eiger North Face was from the era where there were still obvious challenges that even the press could get their heads round.
In reply to Andy Stephenson:
They said that this was the third year that they had tried to film an ascent. I got the distinct impression that the project had started off as a film of an ascent of the North Face with some historical background which out of necessity turned into a historical documentary interspersed with a bit of modern footage.
Either way I thought it was very good.
> (In reply to UKC News) I thought it was a good overview of the history of Eiger North Face climbing. Necessarily brief, I suppose.
>
> The odd part was that we saw quite a large section with Kenton Cool and Neil Brodie, who were seemingly preparing for an ascent. As a taste of what was to come, they filmed a quick reconnaissance via the Stollenloch.
>
>>
> The odd part was that we saw quite a large section with Kenton Cool and Neil Brodie, who were seemingly preparing for an ascent. As a taste of what was to come, they filmed a quick reconnaissance via the Stollenloch.
>
They said that this was the third year that they had tried to film an ascent. I got the distinct impression that the project had started off as a film of an ascent of the North Face with some historical background which out of necessity turned into a historical documentary interspersed with a bit of modern footage.
Either way I thought it was very good.
In reply to ShinyDiscoBalls:
I thought the Eric Jones/ Leo Dickinson was probably the best of all. At least the contemporary protagonist in that film actually made it to the top!
Eiger documentaries do seem to be a little formulaic, but I guess it's hard to tell the story of a modern ascent without making it at least partly a historical documentary.
> I think the one with Joe Simpson is better.
I thought the Eric Jones/ Leo Dickinson was probably the best of all. At least the contemporary protagonist in that film actually made it to the top!
Eiger documentaries do seem to be a little formulaic, but I guess it's hard to tell the story of a modern ascent without making it at least partly a historical documentary.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Personally I thought it was very poor. Probably because I fell asleep about half way through...
> (In reply to grindelwald)
>
> I watched Beckoning Silence again the other day, it is good isn't it?
>
> I watched Beckoning Silence again the other day, it is good isn't it?
Personally I thought it was very poor. Probably because I fell asleep about half way through...
In reply to HDV:
I have not seen that one, would you recommend it?
I remember reading or hearing a quote something like "the best training for the Eiger is to sit waist deep in a freezing river and get your friends to throw stones and snowballs at you"
Any idea of the source? or did I make this up?
Thanks in advance.
SDB
> (In reply to ShinyDiscoBalls)
> I thought the Eric Jones/ Leo Dickinson was probably the best of all. At least the contemporary protagonist in that film actually made it to the top!
>
>
I have not seen that one, would you recommend it?
I remember reading or hearing a quote something like "the best training for the Eiger is to sit waist deep in a freezing river and get your friends to throw stones and snowballs at you"
Any idea of the source? or did I make this up?
Thanks in advance.
SDB
In reply to HDV:
I wonder why they didn't include Eric Jones and his first British solo ascent.
>
> I thought the Eric Jones/ Leo Dickinson was probably the best of all.
> I thought the Eric Jones/ Leo Dickinson was probably the best of all.
I wonder why they didn't include Eric Jones and his first British solo ascent.
In reply to ShinyDiscoBalls:
Thoroughly! The camera positions are stunning, the ascent is gripping, and Jones is understated but brilliant.
The historical sections use dramatic reconstruction as well as old footage very effectively (There is an absolutely horrific scene recreating John Harlin's fall).
Looks like it's out on DVD now too.
http://www.outside.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/5801|||0|user|1,0,0,1|2|
Might even treat myself to a copy to replace the old VHS that I taped off the TV and can't watch any more...
> I have not seen that one, would you recommend it?
Thoroughly! The camera positions are stunning, the ascent is gripping, and Jones is understated but brilliant.
The historical sections use dramatic reconstruction as well as old footage very effectively (There is an absolutely horrific scene recreating John Harlin's fall).
Looks like it's out on DVD now too.
http://www.outside.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/5801|||0|user|1,0,0,1|2|
Might even treat myself to a copy to replace the old VHS that I taped off the TV and can't watch any more...
In reply to UKC News: It was a great documentary, especially the harrowing tales from the rescuers and Nally.
Bonnington always comes across as so casual when talking about death - perhaps when so many of your friends die it almost becomes matter of factly
Bonnington always comes across as so casual when talking about death - perhaps when so many of your friends die it almost becomes matter of factly
In reply to Winterbotty:
The section about Nally was shocking to be honest, having read all the typical contemprary literature abou the Whillans/Bonington rescue I'd formed a very different perception of Brian Nally.
The inerview with him from the time was very moving, and not what I expected at all, he seemed an absolutely broken man.
The section about Nally was shocking to be honest, having read all the typical contemprary literature abou the Whillans/Bonington rescue I'd formed a very different perception of Brian Nally.
The inerview with him from the time was very moving, and not what I expected at all, he seemed an absolutely broken man.
In reply to HDV:
Seconded.
For anyone interested, I got my copy from Needlesports about 3 years ago. It has excellent footage of Eric solo-ing the face, with quite a bit of 'historical' stuff, which looked remarkable similar to the footage on the recent "Norwdwand' dramatisation. It also has some documentary stuff about how Leo did the filming of the climb.
Don Whillans trying to be 'nice' about Eric on the extras section is also something well worth watching.
Still enjoyed lasts nights showing though, and yes, The Brian Nally footage was haunting. A truly broken man.
Shame there was so much time devoted to Mr. Cool though.
> (In reply to ShinyDiscoBalls)
>
>
> I thought the Eric Jones/ Leo Dickinson was probably the best of all. At least the contemporary protagonist in that film actually made it to the top!
>
>>
>
> I thought the Eric Jones/ Leo Dickinson was probably the best of all. At least the contemporary protagonist in that film actually made it to the top!
>
Seconded.
For anyone interested, I got my copy from Needlesports about 3 years ago. It has excellent footage of Eric solo-ing the face, with quite a bit of 'historical' stuff, which looked remarkable similar to the footage on the recent "Norwdwand' dramatisation. It also has some documentary stuff about how Leo did the filming of the climb.
Don Whillans trying to be 'nice' about Eric on the extras section is also something well worth watching.
Still enjoyed lasts nights showing though, and yes, The Brian Nally footage was haunting. A truly broken man.
Shame there was so much time devoted to Mr. Cool though.
In reply to jon:
Which one? Actually I agree on both films
E
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Personally I thought it was very poor. Probably because I fell asleep about half way through...
> [...]
>
> Personally I thought it was very poor. Probably because I fell asleep about half way through...
Which one? Actually I agree on both films
E
In reply to UKC News:
Well, I've just whizzed through The Michael Ball Show of 2nd Sept and can't find Andy K-P anywhere.........
What a dire looking program!
Well, I've just whizzed through The Michael Ball Show of 2nd Sept and can't find Andy K-P anywhere.........
What a dire looking program!
In reply to UKC News:
I sometimes think reading about epics have more detail and get you more into the situation than watching tv.
What comes to mind is
Dom Whilliams - never actually got to the top but spent time loads of on the Eiger.
Tom Patey - went with wHilliams
Bonnington - first Brit assent - went with Whilliams on a couple of ocassions and learnt the ropes
I sometimes think reading about epics have more detail and get you more into the situation than watching tv.
What comes to mind is
Dom Whilliams - never actually got to the top but spent time loads of on the Eiger.
Tom Patey - went with wHilliams
Bonnington - first Brit assent - went with Whilliams on a couple of ocassions and learnt the ropes
the Eric Jones one is definatley a must see, but equally is the beckoning silence joe simpson one.
Am I the only one who is slightly tired of eiger films, so many of the same story and route.
Lets see
this docu
Joe simpson one
Leo Dickinson one
The North Face
all go through the same stories,
Am I the only one who is slightly tired of eiger films, so many of the same story and route.
Lets see
this docu
Joe simpson one
Leo Dickinson one
The North Face
all go through the same stories,
In reply to UKC News:
Excellent. Interesting footage of the face from where they went out through the railway tunnel gallery.
A most univiting looking place.
Excellent. Interesting footage of the face from where they went out through the railway tunnel gallery.
A most univiting looking place.
In reply to UKC News:
Did any kind Brit record "Eiger Wall of Death", and have the capability of burning it to DVD, and sending it to an Ex-Pat Brit in Australia?
The BBC i-player is blocked for Aus.
If anyone is willing to do so, I would gratefully refund post and packing and sundry costs.
Did any kind Brit record "Eiger Wall of Death", and have the capability of burning it to DVD, and sending it to an Ex-Pat Brit in Australia?
The BBC i-player is blocked for Aus.
If anyone is willing to do so, I would gratefully refund post and packing and sundry costs.
In reply to UKC News:
Karen and Andy were on the Michael Ball show of 8 September (episode 18). They had some hilarious uncomfortable looks on their faces as they were being cooked for. The interview was alright.
Karen and Andy were on the Michael Ball show of 8 September (episode 18). They had some hilarious uncomfortable looks on their faces as they were being cooked for. The interview was alright.
In reply to stroppygob: I am giving it a go as I type...don't hold breath, technology even of the DVD/HDD player variety is a bit of a struggle. It's only going in slow mode ( if at all) ....I'll let you know later!!
In reply to stroppygob: Job seems to be a success...opening credits missing but otherwise ok. Mail me some detaile. Maybe Paypal me the postage though don't suppose it will be too much?
In reply to UKC News:
Embarrassing, two geezers offered to send me copies and I've lost both their e-mail addresses!
If your name begins with S, and you asked me to pop a few bob in the red cross box (which I certainty will do!) then can I let you know that the disc arrived safely.
Also, I used to live in the same part of the world as you.
Please e-m,ail me again so I can say thanks properly!
Embarrassing, two geezers offered to send me copies and I've lost both their e-mail addresses!
If your name begins with S, and you asked me to pop a few bob in the red cross box (which I certainty will do!) then can I let you know that the disc arrived safely.
Also, I used to live in the same part of the world as you.
Please e-m,ail me again so I can say thanks properly!
In reply to UKC News:
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! FFS!
My sky+ box decided to delete this! GRRRR! I only had time to watch the first 5 mins, went back later to watch the rest of it and it had gone.
Can I add myself to the list of people trying to blag a copy from the kind souls on UKC?
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! FFS!
My sky+ box decided to delete this! GRRRR! I only had time to watch the first 5 mins, went back later to watch the rest of it and it had gone.
Can I add myself to the list of people trying to blag a copy from the kind souls on UKC?
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