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Out of interest, it seems to me that you don't actually need to do MIC/MIA etc etc to be a BMG. Is this correct?
Seems a more viable way to go for the keen climber, as you dont have to spend time and money on ML etc etc and just go and bash out some routes, whch you will be doing anyway, get on the BMG scheme and then you're done.
Seems a more viable way to go for the keen climber, as you dont have to spend time and money on ML etc etc and just go and bash out some routes, whch you will be doing anyway, get on the BMG scheme and then you're done.
In reply to Paul Doran: Yes, but you have to attain the prerequisites which are fairly stiff... having said that if you are young and talented and climb hard then there's not problem...
In reply to Paul Doran: Many do work towards MIC/MIA first, as to gain enough experience to become BMG, you'd need to either have one hell of a lot of money stashed away to gain the experience required (20 alping north faces etc). or work through the lower quals, and instruct at a lower level while completing personal climbing towrds the BMG in holidays etc.
The latter is my plan.
The latter is my plan.
In reply to Paul Doran: Depends what you want to do with it though.
I think (but stand to be corrected) that you would still for example need to be MIA + MLw to run ML training & assessment courses.
I think (but stand to be corrected) that you would still for example need to be MIA + MLw to run ML training & assessment courses.
I didnt think running as assesment course was one of the pre requisites?
In reply to Paul Doran: Yes you are perfectly correct, you don't need any quals to enter the scheme.
What route you take will depend on your personal experience, enthusiasm and background. Things like whether you've a hillwalking or skiing background will make a slight difference as well as more obviously your top-end climbing skills. Most important is also whether you are most motivated by being in the UK or the Alps.
Most people probably need 12-24 months of concerted and serious effect to get the BMG pre-requisites from a starting position of being a committed and highly skilled climber and mountaineer. Even most MIA/MICs will need perhaps 2-6 months personal climbing, not doing much work to qualify. You are probably then looking at perhaps another 2-3 years before you get to the stage you have passed Summer and Winter assessments and can start earning year round from being in the scheme and then another 1-2 years to finally qualify.
In comparison getting the MIA pre-requisites whilst time-consuming are completely straight-forward by comparison. They are essentially doing a bit of UK hillwalking and cragging which is trivial and cheap compared to getting major Alpine North Faces and linked high-level ski-tours done.
Most of those I know personally starting or planning to do Guide training are MIA/MICs but that is probably more a reflection on who my peer group are than anything else. I probably won't go down the BMG route myself for the moment. I can't really justify the time and effort learning to ski properly combined with perhaps 2 months in the Alps not working in order to fully tick the pre-requisites.
What route you take will depend on your personal experience, enthusiasm and background. Things like whether you've a hillwalking or skiing background will make a slight difference as well as more obviously your top-end climbing skills. Most important is also whether you are most motivated by being in the UK or the Alps.
Most people probably need 12-24 months of concerted and serious effect to get the BMG pre-requisites from a starting position of being a committed and highly skilled climber and mountaineer. Even most MIA/MICs will need perhaps 2-6 months personal climbing, not doing much work to qualify. You are probably then looking at perhaps another 2-3 years before you get to the stage you have passed Summer and Winter assessments and can start earning year round from being in the scheme and then another 1-2 years to finally qualify.
In comparison getting the MIA pre-requisites whilst time-consuming are completely straight-forward by comparison. They are essentially doing a bit of UK hillwalking and cragging which is trivial and cheap compared to getting major Alpine North Faces and linked high-level ski-tours done.
Most of those I know personally starting or planning to do Guide training are MIA/MICs but that is probably more a reflection on who my peer group are than anything else. I probably won't go down the BMG route myself for the moment. I can't really justify the time and effort learning to ski properly combined with perhaps 2 months in the Alps not working in order to fully tick the pre-requisites.
In reply to Paul Doran:
Fwiw, my ex is halfway through the NZ IGFMA course and if I remember rightly, he's only got a (UK) SPA. He's spent oodles of time ski-touring and alpine climbing though.
Fwiw, my ex is halfway through the NZ IGFMA course and if I remember rightly, he's only got a (UK) SPA. He's spent oodles of time ski-touring and alpine climbing though.
In reply to Paul Doran: Most of the above stuff is correct.
In terms of BMG prerequisites, one needs to bear in mind they are a bare minimum and not only require a certain amount of routes at certain grades but also spread geographically and over several seasons/years.
Many good keen climbers have spent several seasons in the alps looking to tick off the harder alpine faces to complete the BMG list (not the only reason they were climbing, i might add) and i think the notion of spending 'a couple of months' in the alps to tick off the harder routes required is rather underestimating the likely time commitment required!
My advice is get out and do as much climbing/skiing as you can, all over the place and when you are nearer completing the list, then focus on the last remaining gaps in the CV.
Most successful applicants are likely to be well 'over qualified' in 1 or 2 disciplines at least.
Hope this helps a bit...
In terms of BMG prerequisites, one needs to bear in mind they are a bare minimum and not only require a certain amount of routes at certain grades but also spread geographically and over several seasons/years.
Many good keen climbers have spent several seasons in the alps looking to tick off the harder alpine faces to complete the BMG list (not the only reason they were climbing, i might add) and i think the notion of spending 'a couple of months' in the alps to tick off the harder routes required is rather underestimating the likely time commitment required!
My advice is get out and do as much climbing/skiing as you can, all over the place and when you are nearer completing the list, then focus on the last remaining gaps in the CV.
Most successful applicants are likely to be well 'over qualified' in 1 or 2 disciplines at least.
Hope this helps a bit...
In reply to Paul Doran: Sorry, don't meen as a prerequisite, meant if you wanted to go down the route of being a course provider of ML / SPA etc. in the future.
In reply to Paul Doran:
Paul, the guides qualification is the hardest of all of them to get - in terms of it's pre-requirements and its assessments. If you have no background at all in instructing/teaching/guiding/working with people in the mountains, then you'll instantly be at a disadvantage and be making a very hard series of assessments even harder. It's not cheap either, so consider that if you fail a stage and have to re-do it, then it'll cost you even more.
So, even if on paper missing out the other qualifications looks like a short cut to a glamorous life, in fact it could be a long, expensive way round to getting one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet.
Paul, the guides qualification is the hardest of all of them to get - in terms of it's pre-requirements and its assessments. If you have no background at all in instructing/teaching/guiding/working with people in the mountains, then you'll instantly be at a disadvantage and be making a very hard series of assessments even harder. It's not cheap either, so consider that if you fail a stage and have to re-do it, then it'll cost you even more.
So, even if on paper missing out the other qualifications looks like a short cut to a glamorous life, in fact it could be a long, expensive way round to getting one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet.
In reply to jon: Come now - it's not that bad is it I've seen your suntan and the little glint in your eye... as my mate says, life in the mountains is tough (it's an Tyrolian saying a bit like worse things happen at sea, which he's subverted to his own cause!)
In reply to Paul Doran: Thers a BMG open day coming up this Saturday 22nd May at PYB.
In reply to Petearrgh
To be fair mate it might take you rather a long time to fulfill your plan.
Looking at your profile as ever.... unless you have not updated for a while.
Unless you up your game a bit you ain't got a chance.
And this is from a fellow punter.
To be fair mate it might take you rather a long time to fulfill your plan.
Looking at your profile as ever.... unless you have not updated for a while.
Unless you up your game a bit you ain't got a chance.
And this is from a fellow punter.
In reply to Paul Doran:
It seems that there is a great deal of interest in folk wishing to be guides by dint of this short thread having so many hits, so it is perhaps worth pointing out that unfortunately it is a bit late for people to get in touch with the BMG to attend the open day at pyb this Saturday, but these events are being held currently every two years.
There are obvious pros and cons to going in cold with no quals but lots of climbing and skiing and the other extreme loads of experience working with people in the mountains. A happy middle ground is probably the best, such as getting an MIA and having a bit of work experience. It is perhaps obvious but worth stating anyway that the BMG training scheme won't teach you how to climb, but how to guide which is very different, but subtly so.
I don't think that the pre requisites are all that stiff really. If you love the life of climbing just keep a note of what, where and when and with who and you may just find that you wake up one day and have much more than the minimum requirements. Yes it may take many years but the journey isn't half fun and will give you memories and friendships that will last a life time.
On a slightly cautionary note, I think that it is important that people don't strap them selves on to big routes for the sole intention of their application forms, rather they WANT to be there and the fact that 'it counts' is a bonus. Indeed, perhaps a defining characteristic of a Guide is that they will be out exploring on their days off and will have a genuine love of being there with partners and clients.
Oh, and make sure you can ski well, it really does help.
James e BMG trainee
It seems that there is a great deal of interest in folk wishing to be guides by dint of this short thread having so many hits, so it is perhaps worth pointing out that unfortunately it is a bit late for people to get in touch with the BMG to attend the open day at pyb this Saturday, but these events are being held currently every two years.
There are obvious pros and cons to going in cold with no quals but lots of climbing and skiing and the other extreme loads of experience working with people in the mountains. A happy middle ground is probably the best, such as getting an MIA and having a bit of work experience. It is perhaps obvious but worth stating anyway that the BMG training scheme won't teach you how to climb, but how to guide which is very different, but subtly so.
I don't think that the pre requisites are all that stiff really. If you love the life of climbing just keep a note of what, where and when and with who and you may just find that you wake up one day and have much more than the minimum requirements. Yes it may take many years but the journey isn't half fun and will give you memories and friendships that will last a life time.
On a slightly cautionary note, I think that it is important that people don't strap them selves on to big routes for the sole intention of their application forms, rather they WANT to be there and the fact that 'it counts' is a bonus. Indeed, perhaps a defining characteristic of a Guide is that they will be out exploring on their days off and will have a genuine love of being there with partners and clients.
Oh, and make sure you can ski well, it really does help.
James e BMG trainee
In reply to James Edwards:
Undoubtedly true, but exactly the advice about the scheme, I don't like hearing...
> Oh, and make sure you can ski well, it really does help.
Undoubtedly true, but exactly the advice about the scheme, I don't like hearing...
In reply to jon:
I'm not sure I agree with you Jon. Personally, I think it's actually an advantage not to have any qualifications when you start the scheme, because there is less pressure going into the UK based assessments. I've been going through the BMG scheme, but have just withdrawn for a number of reasons, and I found that there was a lot of self-imposed pressure on people who already had MIA/MIC because they were expected to be super-slick on assessment (in reality everyone has to perform to roughly the same standard).
Having said that, I definitely had to process a lot more information and probably practice a bit more to get through the UK summer test, but once you're getting on with it it all just seems like part of the process and it's fun learning stuff and getting better at what you're doing. (I was amazed at the difference between what I thought I knew compared to what I actually knew!).
My advice to someone who is absolutely certain they want to be a guide is to go climbing and skiing as much as you can (scraping by on whatever work you can get) and just get on with it before you get a mortgage/family/etc. You do need to be pretty certain though, because it is a massive commitment in terms of money, time and emotion.
I would also add that if you see the pre-requirements as a burden rather than an opportunity to go climbing/skiing and have a brilliant time then it's probably not for you!
I'm not sure I agree with you Jon. Personally, I think it's actually an advantage not to have any qualifications when you start the scheme, because there is less pressure going into the UK based assessments. I've been going through the BMG scheme, but have just withdrawn for a number of reasons, and I found that there was a lot of self-imposed pressure on people who already had MIA/MIC because they were expected to be super-slick on assessment (in reality everyone has to perform to roughly the same standard).
Having said that, I definitely had to process a lot more information and probably practice a bit more to get through the UK summer test, but once you're getting on with it it all just seems like part of the process and it's fun learning stuff and getting better at what you're doing. (I was amazed at the difference between what I thought I knew compared to what I actually knew!).
My advice to someone who is absolutely certain they want to be a guide is to go climbing and skiing as much as you can (scraping by on whatever work you can get) and just get on with it before you get a mortgage/family/etc. You do need to be pretty certain though, because it is a massive commitment in terms of money, time and emotion.
I would also add that if you see the pre-requirements as a burden rather than an opportunity to go climbing/skiing and have a brilliant time then it's probably not for you!
Just to be clear, I am not trying to become a guide, I started climbing about 3 months ago, was just interested in how it fitted together.
I'm still trying to learn the difference between as arse and an elbow.
I'm still trying to learn the difference between as arse and an elbow.
In reply to Paul Doran:
An arse is what you use when climbing an offwidth chimney, an elbow is what you use when climbing sub body size offwidth, but larger than fist.
> I'm still trying to learn the difference between as arse and an elbow.
An arse is what you use when climbing an offwidth chimney, an elbow is what you use when climbing sub body size offwidth, but larger than fist.
In reply to Paul Doran: Please note that the deadline for applications is the end of May each year. Well, here are the Pre-Requisites as listed on the BMG website. Although it might sound like a huge amount, it is achievable if you really want it. Most successful applicants have 10-15 years experience. Anyway, applicants must:
"Be at least 22 years of age.
Submit the Association's medical form completed by a medical practitioner.
Provide details of mountaineering experience in the UK over a period of at least five years, which should be geographically extensive. In all cases these routes must be led or alternate led, and not soloed. They should include:
At least 50 multi-pitch climbs led at El 5b or above in a wide variety of areas in the UK. Technical leads at E3 5c are recommended as this ensures that the applicant is consistent at E1 5b.
A comprehensive list of at least 50 snow and ice climbs of Grade III and above, of which 20 must be at Grade V or above. Over 70% (thirty five) of these should be in the Scottish mountains in a variety of areas. Non-UK experience may also be taken into consideration e.g. ice grade 4 in France or Canada, but the majority of experience logged must be UK/Scottish.
A general mountaineering history including hill walking in the UK and Ireland, mountaineering and camping experience
Provide details of Alpine mountaineering experience over a minimum period of at least four years. This experience should show the following:
Knowledge of several Alpine climbing areas, at least three of which should be European
Twenty ascents of major summits, ten of which must be PD or harder.
A variety of experience including rock, snow/ice and mixed (mentioning any winter ascents)
As a guideline, experience in the European Alps should include a minimum of twenty big routes, at least ten of which should be Alpine TD standard or above. Of these ten routes five should be at least 800 metres in length and be mixed routes of a serious and commiting nature (i.e. classic North faces or similar).
Greater ranges experience will be considered but the majority of routes and experience must be in the European Alps.
Applicants must include the names of climbing partners on all significant ascents.
Provide details of skiing ability on and off-piste including a minimum of thirty listed days of ski-mountaineering experience in glaciated Alpine terrain. Fifteen days or more of the thirty listed days must be linked days consisting of at least three consecutive nights in huts on recognised tours. Ski touring and skiing expeditions outside of Europe will be considered but the majority of ski-touring experience must be in the European Alps. Applicants are expected to ski all pisted runs with good style and demonstrate good balance, posture and control whilst skiing linked-parallel turns of varying radius. Applicants should cope well in all off-piste conditions showing the ability to ski safely, effectively and in control.
The applicant must be currently operating at the standards mentioned in 3, 4, & 5.
Provide written references from at least two referees, one of whom must be a fully qualified Guide. The Guide must be able to vouch, at least in part, for the authenticity of the candidate's application and be prepared to help and advise him/her through the scheme as a mentor. The Training Officer/Training Committee can assign a guide as a referee if the applicant does not know a Guide. One referee must be able to attest to the candidate's good character.
Provide details of a current first aid certificate with a mountain component.
List any relevant qualifications held e.g. MIA, MIC etc.
Send an Application Fee to British Association of Mountain Guides (details of the cost are to be found in the Guidance Notes for Applicants available from the BMG office.)
Send a copy of your application form to both referees along with a pro forma for the referee to verify your application."
So, that is the current pre-requisite. Enjoy the journey....
"Be at least 22 years of age.
Submit the Association's medical form completed by a medical practitioner.
Provide details of mountaineering experience in the UK over a period of at least five years, which should be geographically extensive. In all cases these routes must be led or alternate led, and not soloed. They should include:
At least 50 multi-pitch climbs led at El 5b or above in a wide variety of areas in the UK. Technical leads at E3 5c are recommended as this ensures that the applicant is consistent at E1 5b.
A comprehensive list of at least 50 snow and ice climbs of Grade III and above, of which 20 must be at Grade V or above. Over 70% (thirty five) of these should be in the Scottish mountains in a variety of areas. Non-UK experience may also be taken into consideration e.g. ice grade 4 in France or Canada, but the majority of experience logged must be UK/Scottish.
A general mountaineering history including hill walking in the UK and Ireland, mountaineering and camping experience
Provide details of Alpine mountaineering experience over a minimum period of at least four years. This experience should show the following:
Knowledge of several Alpine climbing areas, at least three of which should be European
Twenty ascents of major summits, ten of which must be PD or harder.
A variety of experience including rock, snow/ice and mixed (mentioning any winter ascents)
As a guideline, experience in the European Alps should include a minimum of twenty big routes, at least ten of which should be Alpine TD standard or above. Of these ten routes five should be at least 800 metres in length and be mixed routes of a serious and commiting nature (i.e. classic North faces or similar).
Greater ranges experience will be considered but the majority of routes and experience must be in the European Alps.
Applicants must include the names of climbing partners on all significant ascents.
Provide details of skiing ability on and off-piste including a minimum of thirty listed days of ski-mountaineering experience in glaciated Alpine terrain. Fifteen days or more of the thirty listed days must be linked days consisting of at least three consecutive nights in huts on recognised tours. Ski touring and skiing expeditions outside of Europe will be considered but the majority of ski-touring experience must be in the European Alps. Applicants are expected to ski all pisted runs with good style and demonstrate good balance, posture and control whilst skiing linked-parallel turns of varying radius. Applicants should cope well in all off-piste conditions showing the ability to ski safely, effectively and in control.
The applicant must be currently operating at the standards mentioned in 3, 4, & 5.
Provide written references from at least two referees, one of whom must be a fully qualified Guide. The Guide must be able to vouch, at least in part, for the authenticity of the candidate's application and be prepared to help and advise him/her through the scheme as a mentor. The Training Officer/Training Committee can assign a guide as a referee if the applicant does not know a Guide. One referee must be able to attest to the candidate's good character.
Provide details of a current first aid certificate with a mountain component.
List any relevant qualifications held e.g. MIA, MIC etc.
Send an Application Fee to British Association of Mountain Guides (details of the cost are to be found in the Guidance Notes for Applicants available from the BMG office.)
Send a copy of your application form to both referees along with a pro forma for the referee to verify your application."
So, that is the current pre-requisite. Enjoy the journey....
In reply to stuartmacdonald: compare that with what is required for to enter the probatoire in france...
Cette liste doit comprendre au minimun 55 courses et escalades, dont au moins :
- 10 courses en rocher de niveau TD (6a) ou plus, effectuées en montagne au dessus de 2500m et de 350m de paroi minimun
- 10 courses en neige et glace dont 5 au moins seront de niveau D ou plus et de 500m de paroi minimun
- 10 courses en mixte dont 7 au moins seront de niveau D ou plus et de 500m de dénivelé positif
- 10 escalades rocheuses d'un niveau TD+ (6b) minimun, effectuées en falaise (150m de paroi minimun)
- 10 journées de ski de montagne (800m de dénivelé positif minimun)
- 5 cascades de glace de 100m minimun et de difficulté 4+ minimun
Somewhat easier!! You could tick all that off in a season
Cette liste doit comprendre au minimun 55 courses et escalades, dont au moins :
- 10 courses en rocher de niveau TD (6a) ou plus, effectuées en montagne au dessus de 2500m et de 350m de paroi minimun
- 10 courses en neige et glace dont 5 au moins seront de niveau D ou plus et de 500m de paroi minimun
- 10 courses en mixte dont 7 au moins seront de niveau D ou plus et de 500m de dénivelé positif
- 10 escalades rocheuses d'un niveau TD+ (6b) minimun, effectuées en falaise (150m de paroi minimun)
- 10 journées de ski de montagne (800m de dénivelé positif minimun)
- 5 cascades de glace de 100m minimun et de difficulté 4+ minimun
Somewhat easier!! You could tick all that off in a season
In reply to Tobias at Home:
The French prerequirements have been easier than the Brits for a long time. The difference is that during their time as an aspi they climb an impressive list of routes as part of their different stages. Things are changing just a little at the moment with SNGM taking a larger role in the training and assessment - whereas it always used to be just ENSA. ENSA was criticised by the SNGM as a lot of the ENSA profs have never or very seldom worked as guides - a bit like an academic never leaving university and seeing the real world - and this came to a head a couple of years ago. It was not unknown for rather unhealthy competition to creep in and ENSA profs tried to out do each other with impressive routes with their aspis. One of the biproducts of this change should be a change in the selection 'competitions' and this might have the effect of allowing climbers who would make good guides to get into the system and not just the high performers.
The French prerequirements have been easier than the Brits for a long time. The difference is that during their time as an aspi they climb an impressive list of routes as part of their different stages. Things are changing just a little at the moment with SNGM taking a larger role in the training and assessment - whereas it always used to be just ENSA. ENSA was criticised by the SNGM as a lot of the ENSA profs have never or very seldom worked as guides - a bit like an academic never leaving university and seeing the real world - and this came to a head a couple of years ago. It was not unknown for rather unhealthy competition to creep in and ENSA profs tried to out do each other with impressive routes with their aspis. One of the biproducts of this change should be a change in the selection 'competitions' and this might have the effect of allowing climbers who would make good guides to get into the system and not just the high performers.
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