UKC

Guy Jarvis is live on UKC TODAY......

You can hit him with any questions regarding NICAS and how the scheme works, how it will affect climbing, how you can join and when and where it is running.

Read More:http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=47512

What is NICAS? See this UKC Article to find out:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1870

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Morning Guy,

There are two concerns that were brought up on the other thread associated with the NICAS article.

Some are concerned that,

1. In the future, because of NICAS, only those with qualifications will be 'allowed' to climb outside and that if you want climbing insurance you will have to show the insurance company a certification of competence.

and..

2. That NICAS will breed a generation of climbers that only want to climb inside and our climbing culture and community will be less for that.

Could you address both these issues.

Thanks,

Mick

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Morning Mick

Good questions and my answers are:

1) There is no precedent for this happening in any other sport I know. Do you need to have a swimming badge to go swimming? This is totally against not only UK climbing culture but also UK culture in general. This will also never happen for indoor climbing either as it would be commercial suicide. By the way, if anyone ever tried to link NICAS to some insurance or qualification scheme the board of trustees would be on them immediately demanding they desist. Personally I would seek to end NICAS if I thought there was any credible threat of this happening.

2) Your point about wall trained climbers is more interesting as this has been happening for years. I would say that in Bristol about 70% of our users never go outside. Young climbers are our future and one of the main reasons for setting up NICAS is that it addresses just this issue and educates young climbers about the wider world of climbing. In the end it's their choice where they go from the indoor world - but at least it will be a more informed choice.

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS:
Morning Guy,
there was also a suggestion that this is just a money making scheme aimed at getting more people into walls. I find this a bit cynical but can understand why people will see it that way. Could you give a bit more background on why you felt the need for an award scheme?
Al

Morning Guy,

As a teacher in school, with access to various climbing walls, how would I go about running the NICAS with my students? Are there any minimum requirements for staffing - CWA or SPA?

Also are there any resources that you would recommend to support the delievery of the scheme?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hi Guy

I noted that a component of the advanced level is:

- Demonstrate background knowledge on UK climbing history, issues, equipment and the Mountaineering Councils

Apologies for my ignorance of what is available but assumiong the participant wanted (or their parents wanted) to continue down a formal route what would be the next natural certificate/level if they wanted to progress to leading outside ? Would that be the SPA or would there be a lot of overlap ?

In reply to AlH:

Morning Al

Yes. The main reason I developed the whole concept of NICAs was that I saw very little progress and coaching occuring in climbing instruction indoors. I have been instructing for over 25 years and little had changed in this area. Most sessions had revolved around the teaching of belaying and then top roping routes until both climber and instructor became bored. Consequently many novice climbers gave up and instructors became stale.

Now most major climbing walls are commercially run (even authority walls have to make revenue). The great thing about this is that they have to be very responsive to their customers. So yes, there is a spin off to well run walls that cater to a need. If you improve your provision people will come more often as they will see greater value in attending. I have no problem with this - it just means that climbing walls are getting better at what they do. Better than paying with taxes!

It also has to be said that NICAS is designed to be used by small walls also (in school gyms, community centres and so on) and is a non-profit making charity. It has been designed to be as cheap as possible for participants and for awarding centres to run.

In reply to clive@chase:

Hi Clive

You will need to contact your nearest awarding centre which you can find out from the NICAS website. They will induct you into the scheme and you can then train and assess your students. The awarding centre will issue certificates when the students have compleetd each level. The centre will also moderate their performance (not yours) to check that they are up to standard.

The NICAS handbook is available as a pdf download on the website and this expalains the minimum requirements for delivering each level of the scheme. For levels 1 and 2 an approved site specific qualification may be perfectly suitable. For level 3 the CWA is ideal and for level 4 you will need in house training on top of a CWA or SPA qualification - or the new Climbing Wall Leading Award (out next year..)

There are very few good resources for coaching climbing published yet however two I can recommend are: Climbing Games by Paul Smith - a superb toolbag of ideas; Coaching Climbing by Michele Hurni - great advice about coaching youngsters from someone who trained the likes of a young Chris Scharma.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Morning Guy,

I think the aims of the NICAS scheme have a lot of merit and that it will be the coaches working at Level 5 who will be particularly influential in the choices young climbers make about their future development.

My only criticism at this time is that the roll out of ABCTT coaching workshops does not appear to be happening. If you could tell me where to find one in the Peak or North West, I would sign up today.
Regards, Paul

In reply to Simon Lee:

Hi Simon

NICAS has a clear remit to train skills for indoor climbing only - this was agreed with the mountaineering councils. There are no NICAS levels for outdoor climbing though knowledge of outdoor climbing is part of the syllabus. However most climbing walls that deliver level 5 run outdoor courses should candidates want to learn these outdoor skills.

The SPA is an instructional award and so there are no national accreditaion schemes for personal outdoor climbing skills.

In reply to Dark Peak Paul:

Hi Paul

There was one level 5 workshop at Climb Rochdale earlier this year and we are running another at Undercover Rock in Bristol on July 7th. I would like to see a lot more workshops and will see if we can put another one on in your area soon. We are also waiting to see the outcome of the MLTUKs proposed coaching structure before we fix how we train for level 5. This is why we are keeping level 5 in the Primary Centres at present. In the end promoting coaching skills amongst instructors is a key aim of NICAS.

Guy,

Can we use the NICAS awards to climb at indoor centres around the U.K without having to pass assesments at each one if we are aged under 18? This would be realy useful

Thanks.
Frankie

In reply to Frankie1992:

Hi Frankie

NICAS has no jurisdiction over the management of climbing walls so I'm afraid the answer is no. However your NICAS logbook provides you with an excellent portfolio of evidence that you can show a wall if they ask about your experience.

Happy climbing..

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS: there are no national accreditaion schemes for personal outdoor climbing skills

Like I say I'm ignorant of what is available but that does surprise me.

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS:

Thanks Guy,

Perhaps you could post news of courses on the NICAS website. As far as I know, there have only been a couple of messages announcing the scheme launch last year.

All the best, Paul

In reply to Dark Peak Paul:



I've also just set up an account for NICAS at UKC and Guy is more than welcome to double up NICAS news at UKC.

I'm looking into using this as part of the climbing training that we provide to Scouts and Guides. Does an awarding "centre" need to be one single venue or could we use a number of outdoor walls and towers that we have access to? How large would a centre need to be to get approval?

In reply to Simon Lee:

Hi Simon

Outdoor climbing is a bit different to most other sports -it's dangerous and gloriously anarchic. The mountaineering councils are all opposed to 'outdoor qualifications' as the fear is that insurers and land owners could seize upon these to restrict climber's activities. NICAS has no intentions to wander into this territory.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Hi Simon,

As an instructor of sorts, I don’t find it surprising at all. Imagine you ‘signed off’ a new leader and the next day, through bad luck or poor judgement, they had a major accident. Moral and personal considerations apart, that strikes me as a legal nightmare. The indoor venue is a much more controlled environment.

As for the personal and moral issues of instructing as opposed to guiding, well I bet we could kick off a whole new thread…….

Regards, Paul

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS:

I see. Also in terms of, say, hypothetical level 6 'Outdoor Sport Climbing' the lack of suitable low grade sport climbing would be an impediment.

With respect to level 5 would you consider including some elements vital to outdoor sport climbing - I'm thinking particulary - how to thread a belay and lower off safely .

In reply to Dark Peak Paul:

I take your point Paul. NICAS has been going for one year as the fully functioning article and has exceded our hopes and expectations. However we started with minimum finance all derived from climbing walls and with no central funding. Consequently most of our work has been done by volunteer trustees and staff loaned to us from Leicester City Council - all with day jobs. I hope we can now get proper paid staff employed this year so that we can be on top of things better and promote more coaching.

In reply to timjones:

Hi Tim

This is a common question. We require candidates to register with one awarding centre which will take responsibility for the standards of training and assessment by moderating where appropriate. This centre will issue certificates and is answerable to the ABCTT. Awarding centres need to have certain physical and staffing requirements to be registered to deliver each level. These are laid out in the handbook on the website.

The candidates however can gain additional experience at any other climbing wall and log this for the scheme. Their skills can be assessed at any wall but must be checked/moderated by the awarding centre before they award certificates.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Simon

We will not put outdoor skills into the compulsory syllabus of the scheme. However all centres are free to teach above the level of the scheme, or additional skills as they see appropriate. These would not be assessed however.

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS:

Thank you for that reply.


A lot hangs on the definition of centre. Could a Scout County register as centre, if an MIA was prepared to sign us off as having adequate facilities at two venues?

In simple but blunt terms, is it the size of your wall or the quality and integrity of your instructors that counts

It should be possible for us to deliver this to our members at a high standard even if we had no walls at all, but the rules seem to have been constructed to block it. Would it be a good idea to adjust things so that more youngsters can access the scheme at minimal cost?

In reply to timjones:

Hi Tim

The only thing we are trying to control are the standards at which certificates are awarded. To do this we need need named Course Directors at named climbing walls with adequate resources to deliver the scheme appropriately. Within these principles it should be quite possible to sort something out for you. We would need to discuss your proposed arrangements but I would need to think carefully about a system where key staff are either unidentified or could easily change over time.

Don't forget that you can deliver the scheme wherever and whenever you like if you get inducted by an awarding centre, are appropriately qualified and follow the handbook guidelines. It is just the issuing of certificates that is tightly controlled.

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS:

Got to instruct a group now so I'll be back around 2pm...

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS:

We have a core team of 4 SPA's plus 2 SPA trained instructors that I would envisage being the key staff. I certainly wouldn't envisage using unidentified staff or a rapid turnover other than a few that could be involved in assisting key staff occasionally.

The benefits that I would perceive are that we would be aiming to use a variety of our own walls plus commercial walls rather than just one centre. Hopefully by having our own Course Director and staff we could better serve our members and keep them more engaged in the award than the existing commercial optios which are all very busy walls and at least an hours drive away.

In reply to timjones:

Tim

I'm sure we can register one or two of your centres as the main awarding centres. If you fill out a centre registration form available as a download from the website detailing your proposed arrangements we will process it accordingly.

In reply to Guy Jarvis - NICAS:

Grand I'll get in touch with an MIA and then maybe back to you if any further questions arise.

In reply to Simon Lee: I think it's possible that you may not have got a full reply to this - bacause of the ambiguity of the word "leading" i.e to lead a climb vs. lead a group, so I'd like to add a little something here. If you were referring to leading sessions, then the formal route to progression for young people would be to work at a climbing wall, perhaps initially with in-house "site-specific" training and then to progress on to a National qualification, initially the Climbing Wall Award or perhaps the Single Pitch Award. The latter requires personal and teaching experience in outdoor climbing including non-fixed protection, and thus is considerably more ambitious in scope. The climbing wall award training course is accessible to 17 year old students provided the provider is geared to working with under-18's.

I would very much endorse what Guy wrote about qualifications though. None of us want to see the imposition of qualifications as a requirement for accessing crags or climbing walls, it's a gloriously anarchic sport and long may it remain so. However, parents and novices have the right to expect a teacher to be as competent as they claim to be and qualifications for leaders and teachers (linked to ongoiong development post-assessment) is an effective way of achieving this.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hi Guy!

One part of the Nicas scheme is completing a certain number of routes and for the next level of the scheme completing a certain number of harder routes. I presume the purpose of this is to encourage improvement. Two questions:

1) How effective is this - we all know that different walls have different ideas of grades.
2) What is to stop a 7a+ climber climbing all 4's and 5's so as to make the next level award easier to obtain?

Or do I have the wrong end of the stick and the grades are really not that important?

All in all a great scheme providing strucure to climbing development and getting folks involved, good luck with the scheme!

Oli

In reply to bouldery bits:

Hi Oli

Thanks for the positive comments. Sorry for the delay in replying - sunny Pembroke intervened. The scheme only introduces grades in as much as these are indicators of improvement. As far as different walls are concerened this hasn't been a problem so far as instructors can easily guage how an individual is performing. Deliberately doing easy routes is expressly not allowed and the handbook guidance mentions this. In the end this is what instructors and moderation by the awarding centre are all for.