UKH

In reply to Jonno:
Climbed on Tryfan East Face last Sat we started the decent from Adam and Eve around 15:15 and just about made it to the car as it went dark. On the way down we passed one young lad on his way up!!! He had no rucksack, no hat or gloves, no shell and certainly didn't have a head torch. We passed another group further down the hill and they were on their way up also! Both parties would of certainly had a walk off in the dark, on icy ground.

In reply to Jonno:

at what point do we just let natural selection take its course.

In reply to Jonno: Ah the I can look down on you thread for precious types. Must be an awful way to feel good about yourself.

In reply to Fawksey:
Sorry Fawksey but it not right that people put MRT members lives in danger by being ill equipt. What if you were climbing on Sat and had a fall BUT the MRT were busy rescuing somebody in jeans and trainers?

In reply to Fawksey:

ur right, we should just let these things go. The moron in jeans and trainers deserves to put MRT at risk without the intense burden of being held accountable

In reply to PDL: I would hope any MRT member worth his salt wouldnt put his life in danger.

I think Mike Ruddall's death is the only occurence on an actual shout where a team member has been killed. While Im here, a very selfless act it was too.

Dave Anderson too while searching Rowten pot for the CRO

In reply to Silum: Ive never met yet a memebr of MR who didnt like doing what he/she is doing. Though I will add nobody likes dealing with dead people. They are volunteers. Ive also not met one who looked down their noses at those they rescued. That seems to be the preserve of those whove never done it.

In reply to Fawksey:

like I said, it about accountability. Of course the MRT dont mind the work they do (thought Christmas dinner might be the exception lol) ...thats not even close to the point and im pretty sure your just being argumentative for the sake of it. These unequipped morons should be held accountable, its got nothing to do with stroking my own ego.

In reply to Fawksey: Hmm - as a former member of 5 or 6 rescue teams (just happened to live in the right place and felt all community minded) I can say with certainty that Rescue teams have broadly three groups of people - the Capn Mainwarings who want to shout orders and organise landrovers but who do little on the hill; the eager beavers who like being in a vehicle with blue flashing lights; and the guys n girls who do the job because they feel a civic duty. As a former member of the last lot I feel it my duty now to point out that no-one minds going on the hill for a genuine accident - most folk have one at some stage - hopefully minor. Most of us do mind going out for idiots who should have known better.

In reply to Silum: Not necessarily your ego, I didnt mean you individually. Lets move on from being ill equipped to be in-experienced. Do we then rush to give every fallen climber on a crag in the UK the "Jonno" award for wasting MR's valuable time because they went outside of their abilities? No.

Seeing a bunch of youngsters in cords and trainers on Snowdon with an Asda bag full of cans of Fanta and twix's should teach us all not to take ourselves so bloody seriousley. Their mistake is no different than someone falling off acrag they thought they could climb.

In reply to Silum:
Perhaps you are right.
What about making them pay their own rescue?
Paying rescue...if controversial could possibly minimize numbers of unprepared folks who will just phone when feeling slightly out of their comfort zone (which varies widely).

And for those who are responsible but may need rescue: well insurance will pay for it. That's the main point for joining the Club Alpin Francais for lots of folks (I was a member for 15 years before I moved to the UK).
And even for those, aim at getting yourself out as you put yourself in it in the first place. I think, we (inc. I) have come to rely far too much on the presence of possible rescue.

It will not be a complete answer, see what happens in Cham, but could go a long way... indeed, if you know the helicopter bill of £2,000 will come to you, you think twice about making that phone call.

In reply to Jonno: Hey Jonno how come you aint lining up to give the climber who fell at Stanage yesterday some grief? He forgot to clip into his first bit of gear and decked out according to the MRT report.

Do you think he was being stupid? Do you think he's wasted MR's time?

In reply to Fawksey:

To quote the MRT "If people are well equipped and experienced, it is fine to go up Snowdon, but we've had to rescue people from high up who are wearing just trainers, jeans and fleeces."

Fawksey are you saying it is ok to just wear Jeans, Trainers and Fleeces?

In reply to JonRoger: On the way down from Helvellyn 3 weeks ago I met an ex member of the Patterdale MRT who felt like you when rescuing idiots. I also suggested to him that we bring in mountain rescue insurance, if you dont have it you pay to be rescued, and he aggreed with this. I pay £109 a year for both my wife and I for mountain rescue in europe, not expensive. That day there were people on Helvellyn who were poorley equipped for the day (full winter conditions).

In reply to PDL: No to be fair Im not.

In reply to icnoble:
As a youngster it was even cheaper as a member of the CAF and it covered worldwide. It did not, however, give as much money when you look at the breakdown (stuff like if you become disabled, dead...) which I always thought made the BMC significantly more expensive.
Interestingly when I first moved here, I couln't convince myself that one didn't need an insurance to get out and about.

In reply to PDL:

Can't imagine there has been a sudden increase in the amount of ordinary people who stagger up Snowdon without jackets and overtrousers. Just in the number of people who start feeling a bit cold, then reach for the phone. Without a mobile, I imagine the vast majority of them would summon the reserves needed to stagger down the Llanberis path successfully. Or perhaps we're just all a lot softer than we used to be.

In reply to French Erick: MR rescue people walking their dog who have had an accident or become ill and because of the nature of the ground the ambulance crew are unable to remove them. Does this person need insurance?

Most people in this country resent paying the BMC anything I cant see the majority wishing to have to purchase insurance aswell.

In reply to Jonno: I always have to laugh at the arguement's in either direction when it comes to mountain rescue. The but the rescue teams love it argument simply isn't my experience in Llanberis Mountain Rescue who along with Ogwen MRT and other in major mountain areas are basically being push to breaking point.

We have had somewhere like four or five rescue since Christmas Day, this is a holiday period for most people, however it seems that as a voluntery organisation we are expected to turn out for the 'love of it'. Well rescuing people for being idiots is very hard to maintain the motivation for, especailly when MR has a general policy of not criticising people. Personally I have no problem with it, as many people are poorly equipped or have if they do have the equipment have no idea how it works!

This year Llanberis mountain rescue team has responded to over 100 call outs. More than two every week. Often these have happened as multiple incidents. We also have to deal with the messy situations of fatalities in the hills where we act as scenes of crime officers, forensic photographer/videographer for the police. This year I have been present at two suicides, and two fatal falls from crib coch/crib y drysgyl.

I firmly believe that rescue team should consider charging the police for body recovery and giving people rescued an invoice (although I don't believe we should chase up payment) for the rescue so they can see just how many people were involved and for how long, and what it would have cost.

I have written a few other things on Mountain Rescue on my blog.

http://lifeinthevertical.blogspot.com/2008/11/cautionary-tales.html
http://lifeinthevertical.blogspot.com/2008/12/bringing-in-dead.html

In reply to Fawksey:
yes... if you're not ready to take all responsibilities for yourself in order to enjoy the great outdoor by either paying the full bill of the rescue, or your yearly insurance, go walkies on an easily accessible place.

That is my opinion, but I respect other's. We're in a democracy and I am very likely to be in the minority (possibly of 1!).

I grudge the tax payer and/or charity money when it comes to leisure/ hobby/ pass-time activity. I would much rather have it spent on education, inner cities... than on an helicopter ride for a sprained ankle.

If I want to go in cold places, or dangle up a cliff face, I see no reason why the guy next door, who has only interest in football and shopping centres, should be financially solicitated in any ways.

In reply to mark reeves:

Mark

Are those who are rescued/escorted off, due to inadequate clothing/skills interviewed after the rescue?

It's all very well calling people idiots, and the inevitable Darwin jokes, but that does nothing to solve a real problem...... too many call outs, deaths, injuries... etc

Why are these people going up in the hills ill prepared. Is it ignorance?

These types of rescue happen all over the UK, every week.

Is anything being done as regards education - particularly at parking areas, trailheads, local accommodation, cafes, climbing/outdoor shops.... to warn people of the dangers.

M

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Does one really need to be reminded it's dangerous?
Surely any "idiots" can assess that for themselves?

I mean we all know that fire burns...or do we?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

you bring up a good point, but surely we already know the answer. The "inevitable" darwin jokes are there for a reason. Who looks up at a bright white Snowdon, -2C temps at the parking lot, 5pm in the afternoon in their jeans and trainers and thinks, "yea lets have a crack"

In reply to French Erick:

Totally the wrong attitude Eric.

We may know the risks because we have learnt.

Others haven't.

You can call people names and take the piss until you are blue in the face.

There's a big problem here, it needs solving.

I'm interested in what is being done.

Mick

In reply to Silum:

People who need educating about the risks.

In reply to Fawksey:

Why would this story make me 'feel good about myself' ? Like all those paddlers who are regularly rescued above Conwy Falls it's tiresome really reading the same old same old.Although 17 does seem a tad above average ?

Yes I've been a MRT member myself although I'd hate to be a member of a honeypot team like Llanberis or Ogwen. What a pain running out every five minutes to lead someone off Tryfan in jeans,Adidas trainers and a Lidl carrier bag !

Anyway...we can't all be as generous and public spirited as yourself. Some of us have to wallow in our low self esteem and deep rooted anxiety !

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



I think I'm being very flippant because I'm bored and you are partly right in saying "the attitude is wrong"

Partly though as when we think "educate" I think we should be able to make assumptions on some common sense.
I am more keenly aware that I have been blessed with living in it since I was a toddler, since I seem to have got (not through any gift or unusual aptitude, I must say) all the dos and donts without having to be told in a formal manner. But surely, we are not at such a stage of spinelessness and stupidity that we need to be educated on every single aspects of the outdoor?

I am also mulling over all those near misses, and unfortunate accidents, I have been involved in. We sometimes need to learn by ourselves to make it a valuable lesson.

This a very loosely built argument, not to say rubbish, since I don't know myself where I want to get but are we not in danger of "over education" to the extent that people stop listening (take pupils in schools as an example).
I only knew for sure the hot stove burnt when I apply both my hands on it age 3. I distinctively remember my mother warning me about umpteen things (ovens, lighter, very hot tap water...)until I felt stifled by everything and still had to find for myself.

In reply to French Erick:


It's not about being idiotic or otherwise, it's about having experience. I can look up a mountain on a bright sunny day and I know that a) it will be a hell of a lot colder on the summit and I will need extra layers b) the weather can change extremely rapidly and I should be prepared if it does c) a decent pair of boots will stop me slipping or twisting an ankle and d) I can navigate my way out of trouble if the cloud descends.

I don't know these things because I'm more intelligent or less idiotic than anyone else, I know them because I've been up lots and lots of mountains. It may be fun for the more experienced folk to sneer at people who haven't had the opportunities we've had and call them idiots, but it doesn't really help anyone does it?

In reply to Jonno: You didnt answer my question about the fallen climber at Stanage.

Mark Reeves is a professional and I wouldnt think it beyond the bounds of probability that he would like to turn MR professional too. There are a fair few in MR who would like to turn it into something for them rather than for others.

In reply to Alyson:

Thanks Alyson.

Makes a change from the individuals who cry 'idiot' all the time.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

No, these arn't the people who need educating about the risks... these are the people who need educating.

In reply to Alyson:

I agree. But where does common sense and winter climbing in jeans come in? Idiot is too kind a word.

In reply to Silum:

The default human condition unfortunately is to slag other humans off. Try over riding your programming.

Look I'm doing it myself ; 0 )

K'n hate smileys.

In reply to Silum:

There's no such thing as common sense when it comes to mountain craft. You have to learn that sense, as you did.

In reply to Jonno:

Mountain Rescue insurance is a terrible idea. The only people who would have it would be the ones who would only need to be rescued after an unavoidable accident. Meaning those of us who take proper precautions would be financially penalised. It would not stop fannies in trainers going up hills in mid-winter. If the thought 'I'm dressed like I'm off to the Bluewater to get some bargains in the sales.' doesn't stop them, the thought 'I don't have adequate insurance' isn't either.

Plus, are you going to start asking for special insurance from everyone who does something which is percieved as being risky? Should rugby players pay more because they are a burden on paralysis units, or horse riders pay more because they are um, a burden on paralysis units? Alternatively should people who sit around doing sod all pay special insurance because they are likely to develop heart disease and be a burden on bl**dy everybody.

Personally, its not the fannies in trainers that bug me, it's the fannies in £300 gore-tex jackets and Brasher boots who somehow can't afford an ice axe. Because they should and DO know better!

Cahotic

In reply to Alyson:

It doesn't make me even smile, more despair that there will always be people to put themselves in those situations in the first place.

It's hard enough when you realise that even with your knowledge and experience it really hinges on very little.

My mind is uncontrollable today and already gone on a tangent: education does not, unfortunately, equate experience... otherwise we would have very few problems

In reply to cahotic:

I did Striding Edge, covered in snow a few weeks ago - in my trainers.

What did you call me again?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well i respectfully disagree.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Was it appropriate to wear trainers? If not, you're a fanny, because you really should know better!

Cahotic

In reply to Alyson:


Thinking about this, maybe taking the piss might help with education. Not much point in talking to the BBC about it unless you're hoping for them to cover it and - hopefully - cause a few people to reconsider their plan to scale Mount Snowdon in a pair of Speedos and Grandad's wellies. They're trying much the same thing with 999 calls - make a stupid one and you now get held up for ridicule. Why not take the piss publicly out of the worst cases?

In reply to cahotic:
How about free insurance? It would work like this.

You have to pay (or part pay) for rescue unless you have registered with the free insurance scheme or are a member of the BMC etc. In registering you get an education pack explaining the do's and don't of walking in the hills.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


I find it funny how many stories people have of 'I walked past someone who was halfway up Tryfan in trainers/flip-flops/wallace and gromit slippers when it was 5 below and there was half an hour of daylight left' and how few of those stories end with 'so for their own safety I shared some of my hard-earned mountain wisdom with them.'

I think there are a lot of people who like to watch others get into difficulties so they can feel smug about themselves.

In reply to French Erick:
Even with all the possibly taught/ instilled mountain craft and some of the innate common sense, I also remember being blatantly part of the "idiots" group.
As a teen I was as daft as a brush... and the worse is that I "knew better".
"Education" at the time was the worst you could offer me as I would rebel against it just out of spite. I got away with it lightly with my many broken bones and stitches. BTW I only got rescued once, and even then made my own excruciating way back to the bottom all the while cursing my own stupidity.

OK, I wasn't in jeans, trainers... but was definitely either under equipped, practicing whilst under-experienced or just being an idiot dare devil.

In reply to Silum:

It comes in because most people would go and play in the snow in their local park wearing jeans. If they haven't been up a mountain before but have spotted some snow and want to get up there to play in it, they may well wear jeans. There is a that feeling among non-mountaineers that Britain is safe - that dangers only occur far away in other countries on mountains that involve ropes and sherpas.

I think we underestimate how much experience has taught us.

In reply to PDL:


Yep, that sounds like a reasonable idea. Still, I'm not sure that we should single out climbing hills as being a 'special' activity. There are plenty of other sports which also involve risk and therefore an associated cost to the tax-payer. Although I realise activities in the hills also represent a risk and outlay of time and effort on behalf of voluntary MRTs.
I definately think education is the way forward though. There's a definite instinct to think 'This guys an eejit' when you see someone ill-equipped on the hill, but theres a significant chance he just doesn't know what he's got himself into. Which is why it's people that should know better who annoy me.

Cahotic

In reply to psd: I dont know if they still do but I remember the CRO having a "debrief" after rescues (aslong as they werent going straight to hospital) with the rescued before inviting them down the pub. Maybe this is an opportunity for education. Though I suspect some MR members wouldnt want to do this function, some dont want to be involved in raising money for their own organisation themselves and susect thatthey mighht not want to get involved in education.

Then again maybe its time some people in MR stopped trying to steer it towards being a statutory service and let it go back to being public spirited outdoor people rescuing outdoor people.

In reply to Alyson:

Very true and this was the question we kept asking ourselves on the way home but hindsight is a great thing. When one has just spent 6 hours on the mountain, is knackered, hungry and wants to get off before dark the last thing one wants to do is lecture every Wallace and Gromit slipper adventurer about hill craft on the way down.

Unfortunatley MRT have to pick up the pieces.

In reply to Silum:

And you'd be wrong.

In reply to cahotic:

The right trainers are appropriate for most mountain conditions in the UK. I was wearing Five Ten Prodigy's. I had some instep crampons with me and a walking axe. I had three layers, base, mid, outer and a shell, spare hat and gloves, a flask of coffee, sandwhiches, a map, a whistle and a compass, and I've a fair amount of experience.

It's not just about foot wear.

In reply to Martin76:

>Can't imagine there has been a sudden increase in the amount of ordinary people who stagger up Snowdon without jackets and overtrousers.

There surely will have been since say the fifties - more cars, leisure time, etc. But I agree with your general point: people with mobiles phone, people without keep walking.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Also John, there has been a promotion of the outdoors by the media (tv/mags/internet/films/books) and by outdoor companies, especially the bigger ones.

The Outdoors is promoted as an adventure lifestyle.

People buy the kit, read a bit, then set off --- in greater numbers than ever before.

A few are bound to muck up.

Mick

In reply to Alyson:

The only time I've seen someone walking off to their death (on Tryfan, as it happens) they seemed well dressed and were loudly explaining to their wife which way they thought the Heather Terrace was. They were broadly right so I said nothing - it was only a few days later when I saw a photo on the BBC that I learnt they'd missed it totally and he'd fallen off some steep rocks and killed himself. Apparently they'd wandered too high. Part of me wishes I'd said something along the lines of it being a bugger to find from the southern end sometimes, but at the time I'd just managed to walk off the wrong side of Tryfan in the mist and wasn't feeling like sharing any 'wisdom'.

There's a lot in the saying that good judgement comes with experience, experience comes with bad decisions. People are always going to do stupid things, and MRT will often pick up the pieces. The big challenge is to work out how to minimise the consequences of stupid decisions. I'm not sure how much you can do once you're out on the hills though - if I saw someone in trainers I'd probably mention that it was slippy higher up and hope they took the hint, but how can you check for a compass or the skills to use it?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

i'd love to take a poll on those who think going out into the freezing mountains in winter in Jeans and trainers as its getting dark comes down to a lack of common sense.

I dare say, you might just find *insert shock horror here* that you are wrong.

In reply to Silum:

You will learn, eventually, that so called 'common sense' is learned - usually through experience.

It won't happen today though.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

In the same way Fire=Hot, yes its a learned response. Common sense is by its very definition common natural understanding. It quite clearly IS common sense not to do these things, these are stupid people who you could throw all the education at them, they do non sensical things. Nature used to weed them out of society, until mobile phones and attempts at educating them came around. Nice try though.

In reply to Silum:

It's not what you wear that is the issue, it's waht you do!

You may find that there are enough unthinking judgemental types on the web to "prove" your point. This wouldn't necessarily mean that you or they were right!

In reply to Silum: I think we are all vaguely on the same side here and maybe have a lot more to agree about than the bits we are choosing to discuss.

Anyway the firemen and ambulance technicians that die entering confined spaces to rescue people and are suffocated by gas or lack of oxygen, are they lacking experience or common sense? My experience and training have taught me never to enter any confined space without first testing the atmosphere. I think they lack experience not common sense.

There are probably more days when I didnt need all the kit and clothing I had on the hill then when I did need them.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

All people we (LLMRT) rescued are interviewed, about what happened, what they did right or wrong. However all rescue team try to be 'none judgemental'. It is often little more than haven't you been silly kind of a chat.


There is a great amount of ignorance to the mountains these days, with a lot of people believing that if they get into trouble they will be bailed out by RAF helicopter or a rescue team. They also look at the UK mountains as a non-serious place. Also there was a famously bad article in one magazine that once describe Crib Coch as an easy walk!

Also there is a big difference in what you and I might think of as appropriate for winter walking and what other less experienced people think is appropriate. In fact you and I might go up the hill in Jeans and trainers, but we might know the route, and our ability. For someone that doesn't it can be just another factor that adds up to disaster, as it is often never one thing that triggers a accident or incident, often when you hear the whole story its like an episode of casualty, you just know something bad was inenvitably going to happen.

The have been small sign and poster in various parking areas for a while now. There are even some leaflets that the Llanberis Mountain rescue Team, put together and paid for the printing of, on the accident black spots and winter safety. Last year the North Wales Police ran a free intro to navigation day, ironically they advertised it locally, so that our biggest demographic (people from the south east are statistically more likely to need rescuing) was not aware of the days. I am not sure what the up take was, but I did get an email from the police asking if I would volunteer to help run the course!

Education is a key factor in these preventing incidents, however MR teams spend enough time rescuing without taking on the added burden of educating people as well. there are many centres and instructors who will provide this training for a fee. As someone who makes a living (well of sorts) from instructing, I would be quite pissed off if rescue teams started undercutting us because they staff there courses with volunteers.

Anyway, Happy New Year Mick

In reply to Silum:

Not necessarily. A couple of years ago on my way up to Stob Coire nan Lochan in Glencoe in February I was overtaken by a guy in jeans, trainers and a leather jacket. It was a bit icy in places below the lochans but not too bad...not bad enough for crampons, though the coire was full of snow.

Just before we got up to the lochans he passed us again on the way down, moving fast and sure-footedly. He'd obviously just been up to the lochans for a morning "stroll". The weather looked fine, he was fit and moved fast enough that even if it did come on to piss it down/ a cold wind to get up, at worst he'd have had wet legs for half an hour.

"Idiot" certainly wasn't the word forhim...he was obviouly doing a walk within his capabilities, dressed as he felt fit given the level of committment he was applying.

Last time I was in Wasdale, my daughter and I were doing the Mosedale Horseshoe in thick cloud/ highish wind when we were passed by Jos Naylor...a what? 72 year old man, dressed only in singlet, shorts and trainers and carrying only a half-litre bottle of water. By your criteria he was a total idiot for being up there at all, though I reckon he'd have had a better chance of getting himself out of difficutlies up there than my daughter and me, for all our rucksacks full of extra clothes and emergency gear.

What equipment is needed, what time is required for a trip etc is not a "one size fits all" scenario. someone could be perfectly safe in jeans and trainers while someone else with full winter gear could be a total liability.

In reply to Jonno :

nobody here was introduced to the mountains with a brand new rucksack full of new kit and shiney new boots , basically we all started out by borrowing gear and making the most of it . that is all these guys are doing , maybe they dont know people who have waterproofs or boots they can borrow .

maybe people should stop calling these guys idiots and start thinking about how these guys are actually putting down the playstation controller and getting out and doing something

yeah they may not have the right gear but im pretty sure most of you didn't when you started out , but they have made the decision to be cold and to carry on and try to get to the summit . they may make it up or they may turn back that is thier choice but they will learn the hard way

have you even thought that maybe they do know the risks and decided to go for it anyway ?

stop being so narrow minded and remember that we all started somewhere with no gear or experince and we've only got the skills we have now by actually getting up the mountains and learning from our mistakes

thats it im off my soap box now

In reply to mark reeves:



I agree. MR teams have enough on their plate.

A National campaign is called for, with the BMC, the BBC and the outdoor trade and media to be involved.

HNY to you as well Mark.

Back to my roast.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

But how many of these people will be actually aware of the BMC/outdoors trade?

IIRC, there used to be signs at Pen-Y-Pass carpark warning people of the dangers.

In reply to 2pints:

I'll spell it out.

An education campaign spread by the media, (TV, internet, paper, film) funded and organised by the BMC, outdoor trade and media, with the assistance of the BBC.

Delivered by websites, a film (docu) on TV and web, and paper (mags).....and by word of mouth, leaflets and signage - the whole caboodle.

Attempt to reach the maximum amount of people as possible.

That may reduce the call outs and increase safety.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/rockface/
??


have a good night peeps!

In reply to Silum:

I think it's fair to say that evolution in our species has come to a grinding halt... Stupidity seems to be rewarded!

In reply to Silum:


In the 60's the Brits in the Alps used to be reffered to by the 'Munich School' as 'Das Bluejeans'. This was reffering to people like Paul Nunn, Martin Boysen and Doug Scott, I really don't think super modern kit is the real issue here, its skill, experience and common sense.

In reply to Al Evans:


Well said Al. in my first Alpine Seasons in the early 80's I basically climbed in what I was wearing on the drive out. For climbing, if it was cold, you just put on everything you had. As Doug said, 'I'd put on an extra jumper, youth'
Our first time up point 5 gully on the Ben was done in crampons which kept falling off because I was wearing 'bendy boots' which i'd bought from an army surplus shop.
I'm not sure if we had common sense did we?

In reply to French Erick: How much does it cost to police football matches?

In reply to marsbar: The clubs have to bear the cost, certainly of all the police in the ground, I guess there is more general work on the street caused by footy matches which I don't think they are liable for.

Myself and a friend popped around the horseshoe on the 30th Dec; the view onto the top of the miner's track before the summit ridge was somewhat farcical: Throngs of people, mostly completely ill equipt, climbing very high on the frozen grass to avoid the path which had become a complete ice-rink. A pair of crampons and it would have been easy to get up and down...

On the summit, there were enormous numbers of people in clothing you would go out clubbing in, clearly with no 'stuff' in case of a need for navigation, shelter, repair etc.

We, of course, had discussions about this, and not in an elitist fashion - the mountains are there for *everybody* and as has been pointed out, it's not (only, always, ...) stupidity that makes one badly prepared, it's experience. Our take on it was a hope that those who struggled on and up, freezing their arses off, maybe having a near miss, will think twice next time and learn about what those "people with pointy things on their bags" are doing. This is not a primary educational campaign, of course, and doesn't stop the not-so-near misses.

In reply to James Jackson:

well I think this idea of the mountains are there for everybody is something a lot of us differ on opinion with. Building a giant path up snowdon (under the guise of protecting the surrounding area)is the result of this thinking. Theres nothing elite about climbing these things but that doesnt translate into "anyone can do it"... or "alter something until they can".

As for our own abilities, obviously we all have our own skill level... this topic dosnt really concern us, its about the chumps who have no clue what they are doing. So obviously what we lack in equipment (ill regularly go out in the the hills with trainers for example, it allows me to run for one!) we make up for in whatever level of experience. But lets not forget were talking about the inexperienced who are making the decision to go out in jeans and trainers and no other supplies into the winter mountains... these people lack common sense.

In reply to Silum: Just because product manufacturers would like you to mistake goretex for common sense, that's no reason to go ahead and do it.

Common sense doesn't tell you how much colder it is at 3000ft than 300ft, experience does. Lets not forget that Snowdon is a mountain with a railway up the side and a cafe on the top - and this makes it 'feel' a lot safer to your average punter than some remote munro would.

In reply to Silum:

No they don't lack 'common sense', they are wearing trainers at least, i'd say if someone set of in flip flops and a thong they would lack common sense. Outdoor activities are shown in the media more and more to be something anyone can go have a crack at and as Alyson has said look at Snowdon, even Tryfan, these aren't massive overwhelming beasts, i'm sure they appear as a perfect starting point. And setting off without decent enough gear isn't lacking common sense, its lacking the specific knowledge that we learn from doing it.

Lacking common sense would be not realising that everyone has a starting point and to look down you're nose at them because of that is the exact attitude which puts people off trying new things.

In reply to Jonno:

ohh well, the battle of the word definitions. Either way I feel no sympathy for these people getting rescued off the highway known as snowdon.

In reply to Silum:

Thats fine. I'd just appreciate it if you would keep your elitist and unhelpful comments to yourself.

In reply to EdEd: "And setting off without decent enough gear isn't lacking common sense, its lacking the specific knowledge that we learn from doing it."

What a load of shite.

These people are pure idiots. Once an idiot, always an idiot.

You trying to tell me that these people need educated, that it might not be a good idea to wander up the highest mountain in England and Wales - In winter - in jeans, trainers, and the like?

In reply to PDL: Did you attempt to dissuade these people from continuing or just turn a blind eye and leave it for the MRT's to sort out later?

In reply to drunken monkey:

Interesting that you're calling these people idiots yet you don't understand what i've written or the context it is in.

I'm telling you that these people wouldn't realise that that is a bad idea, not because they are idiots, but because they don't know any better. Why they don't know its the problem and just to say they are 'pure idiots, once an idiot, always an idiot' its the type of brilliant and helpful comment that results in nothing positive being done about it.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Oh and just to clarify the context was about such places as Snowdon, a place seen as a very straight forward and accessible mountain, probably due to the train running up the side.

In reply to EdEd:

as apposed to your helpful comments i presume?

Also, i cant help it if people are dumber than me... I have no other option but to be elitist.

In reply to Silum:

It's spelt opposed.

In reply to taylori:

Actually, I stopped the lad, looked at him shook my head from side to side and made a shaking fist gesture with my hand at him.

He then told me he was a Royal Marine and to mind my own business as it was his life and if he got into trouble he had a mobile phone on him and that he was sick of bumbly climbers telling him what to do.

I then grabbed him by the neck and he hit me over the head with his Aldi bag full of bottled water and kendle mint cake. We both slipped on the ice and my ice axe ripped his jeans. He then took off his flip flops and smashed my head torch.

He was last seen heading off up the hill bare foot in the dark, while we made it back to the car with enough food and water left to feed a legion. But I see what you mean maybe I should have given all four of them a small lecture in hill craft and where the cheapest gear shops where, but what I did do was what you should do and minded my own business.

In reply to Silum:

Well there we go.

In reply to Mooncat:

its spelled spelled too

In reply to Silum:


With comments like that, I would wager that there are actually rather a lot of people more intelligent than you. This is also plainly obvious by your confusing intelligence with experience.

In reply to EdEd:

humour... its not for everybody

In reply to Silum:


Is humous for everyone?

In reply to Alyson: Can I be your token one who has told people to go down - eg two gents in hish puppies and tweeds attempting Swirral Edge when it was sheets of glazed ice at the end of 2 months of cold conditions?

or enforced (I didn't let then disagree) roping an american teacher and his kid down from the Schreckhornhutte when they walked up in trainers and the paths froze overnight.

to the thread:
Please remember these hills are not just "accessed" by mountaineers and rich tourists but are also visited by local kids - do you enforce insurance for them as well? At what point do you encircle the hautres montagnes of the lake district with a fence and who will pay for it?

In reply to Silum:

No i like humour, i don't like the attitude that many people have on here, of just wanting to complain and point blame at other people. I understand the crucial importance for positive critisism but not for people looking down their noses at others and appearing (note the use of this word)to just want something to complain about. And that is worst still when in it is found on a forum like this where the experienced have an opportunity to slag of those who don't know what they do.

Its sad and a real shame.

In reply to EdEd:

overreact much?

In reply to Alyson:

IIRC GCSE Geography taught me that, or have the last few bits of useful information been removed from the syllabus...

In reply to chris j: Exactly. GCSE geography is acquired knowledge, not innate common sense.

In reply to Silum:

Spell - verb (past and past part. spelled or chiefly Brit. spelt)- Oxford English Dictionary.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Speaking as someone who has done their fair share of walking in miserable conditions wearing trainers and jeans, that's simply not true. Lacking experience and gear didn't stop a (not that much) younger me from going out in the wilds, often without proper clothing and gear or any navigational aids other than my vague knowledge of the area.

A number of years of hard won hill knowledge later I'd be pretty unlikely to (for example) go camping with a mate in the middle of Dartmoor in autumn with only jeans, t-shirt, trainers, a Tesco tent and a crate of beer. And so I probably wouldn't end up soaked through, slogging through four miles of bog after getting lost in a sudden mist.

The fact that we thought it a good idea at the time doesn't make us idiots with no hope of ever improving. I'd say that we're now both pretty competent mountaineers but, shockingly, we weren't born with that ability. I doubt you were, either, and I'm certainly glad that I've never come up against someone with your kind of attitude during my ongoing hillwalking education. Luckily I think the majority of climbers, rather than condemning the inexperienced but enthusiastic as hopeless morons, would encourage their ambition while lending a couple of pointers on how to get better.

And possibly, through endless teasing, never, ever let you forget those really stupid mistakes you do make.

In reply to Mick Ryan:

Have you ever read Jimmy Marshall's essays?

The freedom of the hills, without any gear or training.

People who are attracted to the hills should be free to find their own way and have their own adventures without this burden of 'responsibility' that an industry has developed to cater for...

I know you are not arguing for compulsory training but that is the way we are heading unless we, as climbers, dig our heels in and defend our freedom.

I never had a days training from naebody and I am still alive now.
Thank God for the freedom of the outdoors.

In reply to Silum:

Actually either spelling is valid according to the 'Oxford'.

In reply to Al Evans: Oxford.. well a much nicer place to live than scunthorpe (football team aside)

In reply to Jonno:

Education is the way forward. Maybe some hard hitting permanent signs, backed up by posters, in car parks, camp/caravan sites, tourist information offices, pubs, filling stations, hotels and B&Bs etc along the lines:-



WARNING! DANGER OF DEATH OR INJURY!

British Hills and Mountains Are Dangerous

(x) people needed rescuing from hills in this area in the last month/year. Last year (y) people died on the mountains of Britain

The weather can change rapidly and temperature decreases with height - the tops may be up to 10 degrees colder. Get a local mountain weather forcast*

Wear adequate clothing and good footware

Take a map and compass and know how to use them

Allow plenty of time - Don't start out late in the day

Inexperienced? The British Mountaineering Council on (Tel no) can provide contact details of approved local Guides/Walk Leaders

* Weather forcasts are displayed daily at the following locations ( list appropriate main car parks, camp/caravan site notice boards, etc etc) or phone (****) for an up to date forcast

In reply to Wee Davie: Plenty of sympathy with this view though Id like to go further and also remind people that the hills dont belong to "locals" or those in the outdoor industry who make a living out of it.

That also MR are a non statutory volunatry charity and not an authority thats there to police the hills.

In reply to Wee Davie: Totally agree but society has moved on since JM started climbing - taking responsibility for the consequences of ones actions seems to be a thing of the past and people seem incapable of doing anything without being trained / acquiring a certificate / having the "right" gear. The mobile phone genie cant be put back in the bottle now either - 30 years ago you would take things more steadily or natural selection would kick in!

In reply to Trangia:

great post.

Thats the kind of sign I laugh at whenever I see thanks to endless health and saftey rammed down our throats but seen in the context of reducing the strain on the MRT I think it makes perfect sense.

In reply to Wee Davie:

agree completely. But it IS a fine line between this and "17 People Rescued Since Christmas"

i heard a story that edmund hillary got turned away from snowdon by mountain rescue because he was wearing inappropriate clothing lol.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

only the other day i saw some idiot running up a mountain in little more than a pair of tights(!), some thin-looking nylon tracksuit top and trainers - were'nt even proper trainers by the looks of things. Even infant school kids know better than to run when it's icy!!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>


Do they come with a built-in firestarter?

If that doesn't kill the thread nothing will...

In reply to Trangia:
I seem to remember there being a massive warning sign at the start of the tourist path on ben nevis (potential death route might be a better name) and this didn't stop the trainers brigade ("I'm doing it for charity with my son, we've come all the way from newcastle. btw - how come you're not slipping?")

In reply to drunken monkey:

"At Christmas Joe made his first trip to Snowdonia. Wearing gym shoes
and climbing as it snowed they ascended the Idwal Slabs..."

so he clearly qualifies as an "idiot. You might like to read what else this particular "idiot" got up to ...
http://www.joe-brown.com/docman/joe-brown/joe-browns-biography/download.htm...

In reply to Pierre Maxted:

I'm not sure that stacks up. For starters, gym shoes were amongst the best footwear available for rock climbing at the time so by the standards of the day he was well equipped - and I'm sure many of us have climbed in snow of some sort or another without it being especially dangerous. An isolated flurry might count as 'snow' for narrative purposes, but wouldn't raise many eyebrows down the pub later on.

Even if we accept your contention that this could be seen as idiotic, why would his later career have any bearing on the sanity of that particular incident? Just because Joe Brown was a hell of a climber in his later career, it doesn't mean that he couldn't make dumb decisions when he started out.