UKH

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7524436.stm

Heartbreaking.

In reply to PeterM:

With respect to the family.

I'm convinced that mountaineers should not rope up if they do not place protection. Assuming they hadn't.

In reply to RocknRoll:
I'd imagine the route they chose involved glacier travel, in which case climbing roped but without protection is essential. Much alpine climbing involves being roped and taking running belays on rock spikes etc. Equally, the ropes could be for giving the children confidence, just unfortunate that in this instance had tragic consequences

Heartbreaking indeed, and a big shock to many people. Including to the locals on the Italian side for whom - although it's realistic to say that they are used to climbing accidents - the death of almost an entire family has a huge impact at present too. It's only a week ago or so that a team of 3 French climbers (also roped together) had a similar accident in virtually the same place, yet they survived with heavy injuries afaik.

The mother is back in her hometown in Holland meanwhile. Her husband was a GP there (physician) with his own practice in a community health center. The whole family were experienced rock climbers and they were not new to the Mont Blanc massif. Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf in one of its stories covering this tragedy, also shows a photo of the 20 yr old son "hugging a mountain", as allegedly he used to call it. The children all grew up with (rock) climbing...
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/1551619/__Nederlanders_omgekomen_in_Alpe...

The Daily Mail put a newsarticle online with more background info in English
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1038565/Mother-sees-husba...

http://www.wereldomroep.nl/actua/nl/samenleving/080725-ongeval-alpen

Dutch mountainguide Edward Bekker who works in the area where the accident happened, saying a.o. that it's not a matter of Mount Dolent being so dangerous. But that in this 'alpine climbing' terrain, there are not many hooks in place, so it gets more difficult and at times impossible to secure yourself and your group to the mountain. And he continues about the amounts of snow, saying there is still a lot of snow, yet it's warmer so the snow is becoming more slippery.

In reply to mieke:

what lessons can be drawn for someone heading out to the alps?

untie if there is no protection?
use ice screws on steep ground?
used deadmen on steep soft snow?

In reply to RocknRoll: That it's potentially dangerous. All your suggestions are OK if time allows - but speed is the essence of safety. Sometimes, things go wrong. Tragic, sad, but sadly inevitable. There again, without those tragedies there would be no true adventure and the Alps would lose their compulsion for many of us.

In reply to RocknRoll:

I short-roped a beginners on the Matterhorn, we moved together. On the descent he slipped and I pulled him up short - we were not pitching it. Without being tied together he would have gone all the way to the bottom!

Chris

In reply to PeterM:

Ditto to Chris, I short-roped a beginner winter climbing: they fell on the descent on steepish snow, I did an ice axe brake and immediately arrested the slide. Calculated risk. I personally would have been safer unroped but as a team it was the right option.

Re lessons, I guess you'd first need to know the precise circumstances - time of day, weather conditions, temperature, type and gradient of terrain, length of rope between rope team members, relative weights of climbers and their arrangement in the rope system, competence of climbers, etc.

In reply to PeterM: im sure there has been many more certain deaths prevented by roping up than deaths caused by roping together.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Like wise, I have stopped a beginner going the full run of the N Face of the Chardonnet while simul climbing on short coils. He would be in god's choir if he wasn't roped

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Likewise, short-roping on PD terrain in the Alps I have stopped two different climbing partners on potentially v dangerous falls on steep snow-ice by using the rope round an ice axe brake that held successfully. (Of course we would both have died or been very seriously injured if it had failed.) On neither occasion did we ever refer to it later, or perhaps not until many years later. That seemed to me all part of what good teamwork is about.

In reply to RocknRoll:

In this specific case, the explanation given today by the VdA rescue is that a root cause for the Dolent accident was related to the climbers being roped all four together in a single team.

At the moment, “preferred procedure” here is one guide + one client (that translates for non guided teams in “one experienced climber + another climber”). Four men ropes may be problematic when moving together on steep slopes, as if one climbers falls knocking down another one, their combined falling weight may be impossible for the others to control. In fact, almost no guide here, no matter the experience, will accept to guide more than two people, particularly on steep terrain (even if not technical)

However, as Guido Azzalea (he's the big boss of the VdA guides) said today: "It's totally useless to make too many assumption or speculate on mountain tragedies, as they can simply happen. And they can happen even if you're being guided"

The majority of mountain accidents are provoked by a mix of external, uncontrollable circumstances PLUS one of more mistakes made by the climbers. Only a small percentage is the result by big, evident blunders only (overlooking the weather, wrong evaluation of personal capabilitites/conditions, etc), and yesterday’s tragedy was clearly NOT one of these.

The normal route of Mt. Dolent (which I know well, having been there many times) is, in the right conditions, neither particularly difficult (PD+) nor dangerous - probably less than the Tour Ronde. It’s also locally known as a frequented, popular introduction to alpine climbing (I climbed it first in 1978 with my dad, and I was just 17, but I had been already there in 1975 at 14). In winter it’s a very popular ski mountaineering route.

Weather yesterday was ok, and according to all reports, the four victims were fit, experienced, acclimatized and well equipped. Actually Laura, the manager of the “Grandes Jorasses” campsite at Planpincieux, told she had been impressed by the group attention of scheduling climbs according to fitness and acclimatization, where plenty of others are far more casual in the approach to these things

Also, the accident happened in the only delicate bit of the route, the steep slope above col 3558. It’s exposed and wild but not difficult. There are slightly different lines that can be followed from the col to the summit, but I understand that yesterday none of these is significantly worse than the other.

I believe that (beside the “no four people ropes” rule) the only other “lesson” which can be learnt for yesterday tragedy is quite obvious: mountain accidents can happen to anyone and anywhere, and attention level is never high enough.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Thanks, Luca, for reminding everyone of the true, dangerous nature of Alpine climbing, which is part of its essence.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Thanks for that very useful post, Luca. As usual you're way ahead of everyone else in your knowledge of what actually happened, and manage to say something about it without implying that anyone who has an accident must be an idiot (OK, sore point... ). In particular, you're way ahead of the journalists, who as usual have little or nothing to tell us about what actually happened other than a "horror death plunge" <sigh>, and seem obsessed with the claim that Mt Dolent is near Mont Blanc, despite the fact that it isn't particularly.

TC on the wrong computer

In reply to Anonymous:

You're so right about dumb journalists. In Holland several newspaper editors and newsprograms made quite an issue of the fact the family wore no helmets. And it took the subsequent comments of the chairman of the Dutch NKBV (climbing&mountaineering organisation) to assure people that wearing helmets would've made no difference here...

I'm actually more shocked that it's out in the news meanwhile who of the four slipped and fell first...
I don't think that's anyone's business anymore (meaning the general public).

In reply to Luca Signorelli: I always apply the principle "never relax till you're inside the hut at the end of the route".

We all know that Alpine climbing can be dangerous, but this seems to have been a particularly horrible accident, given the circumstances - most of a family killed before the eyes of a surviving family member.

An awful tragedy. Not much more one can say.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Thanks Luca for your reply.

In your experience do you rope up for similar ascents where you are climing with a peer? (i.e. not short roping someone less experienced)

If you do rope up do you put running protection such as ice-screws etc. into the glacier on steep sections?

In reply to mieke:


Just to put things are they really are, and in hope people stop making wild guesses:

Yesterday the Dolent slope had a bad case of "red snow" (I posted on another thread what red snow is: snow mixed with sand taken from the altitude winds all the way from North Africa). It's nothing unusual, but it calls for some extra caution. The snow/sand combination, during the hottest hours of the day, makes for a particularly sticky mixture, that may create some serious balls below you crampons, few times even in presence of anti-ball plates. So one has to be careful and do the usual "hit the boot with your axe" manoeuvre when moving, which may be awkward to do if simul climbing in descent.

The best guess we can do is that a snowball formed below the crampons of one of the four climbers, who slipped, hit one of his companions and caused the fall of all the team. It's something that could have happened to anyone, and with two separate ropes, the outcome COULD (but again, no speculations!) have been different.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:
>Just to put things are they really are, and in hope people stop making wild guesses:


Grazie mille, Luca.

Scusi: that's just about my only "Italian". I'm Dutch, and if I would climb on the roof of my house I could actually see the hometown of this poor family. But I've never known any of them. Yet I'm real grateful for all your comments and information here, and your attempts to help stop wild guesses and (false) suggestions.

Who knows maybe in future a day will come when the mother is capable of reading your observations. And those of a small handful of other skilled mountaineers/alpinists who've basically commented likewise the past day, yet not as detailed as you. And if she would, it might just help console her a bit.

In reply to mieke:

>>your attempts to help stop wild guesses and (false) suggestions.

With respect, there is a dialogue and a discussion. Some speculate as to what happened and what can be done to avoid similar accidents in future.

Whether the speculation is 100% accurate is not particularly important. What is important is that the potential scenarios are discussed and useful advice is given.

No one is out to do harm or injustice. We are not trying top apportion blame or idly guess what happened. We are learning. It bores me to tears when there are attempts to suppress this useful dialogue.

At the end of the day Luca is speculating too.

In reply to RocknRoll:

Being roped means that you're either placing pro (running or not), or the leader will never fall and will be always able to stop a fall of the second.

If you're expecting to find ice the answer is yes, as if you're suddenly hitting a ice section on a snow route it's too late to rope then - you must be tied in already. Same if there's a good chance to put running pro (like a rock rib running parallel to the slope you're climbing, etc.

On a soft snow route in an open, steep slope, you're often better off unroped.

The sad reality - I never climb with peers! They're ALWAYS better than me!!!


If conditions allow, absolutely yes, unless we're in a terrible hurry to move. In ascent, and if not short-roping, I use often a couple runners with Tibloc ascenders on them, as they will prevent the second to pull down the leader in case of a fall. The problem with this technique is that it makes any error of route of the second a big problem (he can't go down!).

It's also VERY important that the rope is always kept reasonably tight. And you can't use the Tibloc tecnique when short roping someone.

The W side slope of the Dolent doesn't allow much chances for running pro, unless conditions are particularly icy (it's a steep spot, make no mistake, 40° in one point). In case you temperature is unusually high, you may alternatively go up or down the rock crest between the two couloirs (some III), or make some abseil (three) down the SE couloir, which is steeper but safer in certain conditions. Both these conditions are more difficult than the W couloir.

Just to give you an idea:

the view from col 3558 - on the L skyline there's the rock crest mentioned above, the W slope is behind that.

http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10001/Album652/P...

The W side slope looking down from the shoulder 3774

http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10001/Album652/P...

The steepest bit, a diagonal traverse right below shoulder 3774

http://www.lafiocavenmola.it/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10001/Album652/P...

In reply to RocknRoll:


I wasn't referring to the people who had posted on the thread - it was a reference to some of the stuff I've read on the Web concerning this accident. The informations I've posted are taken from somehow official sources - while obviously no 100% accurate, they're not wild guesses.

In reply to RocknRoll:
>With respect, there is a dialogue and a discussion. Some speculate as to what happened and what can be done to avoid similar accidents in future.

Imo there is no doubt that we agree, RocknRoll. But the way I see it, there are three separate things (or interests). Apart from UKC and discussion here also about preparations to try and prevent similar accidents, there are the media. And it seems useful - especially here - to "expose" their general lack of knowledge (as displayed in several reports meanwhile). And thirdly there must be a few people particularly in The Netherlands who - in future - can surely do with the opinions and explanations of someone like Luca. Because of his vast knowledge and experience.

Using the words "wild guesses" and "(false) suggestions" I wasn't referring to the UKC-board, but first and foremost to the general gossip and (media) hearsay that will unfortunately often accompany tragedies like this one. So if anything can be learned from this terrible event, make sure - anyone - that you do so!

Source: http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/2474712/De_sneeuw_was_al_te_week_om_val_te_stui...


The snow was already too weak to stop the fall

COURMAYEUR - Leader Delfino Viglione of the Italian recovery team and his men have carefully reconstructed the accident of the Germs family. ,, We could not see exactly in what order the victims have walked, because at the foot of the mountain their bodies and the ropes were completely intertwined with each other. In order to quickly recover their bodies, we were forced to cut loose the ropes. But we assume that while descending the boy walked up front, followed by his two sisters and the father as leader of the group behind (above) them.

,, Probably the boy slipped and the girl behind him did not respond quickly enough. When she too went down on the ground, the other sister followed and the father as well could no longer hold. He did try though: we found traces of his ice axe in the spot where the fall began. But by that time, by noon, the snow had already become too weak to provide for some grip.''

After sliding down hundreds of meters along the icy slope, the four people fell into a several dozen meters deep abyss with a rocky ground (base). It’s there where they had fatal skull fractures.

,,Also because all four of them had left their helmets in their rucksacks. I do not want to say that it would have made a difference, but it's not impossible that one or more would have survived the fall with a helmet on,'' notes Viglione.

The sight at the foot of the slope was terrible, he says, but he and his men had little time to think about that. ,, The operation was particularly difficult because it took place in very dangerous terrain, at the foot of an ice slope from where new pieces of ice and rock could fall down any moment. We therefore needed ropes to lift two of the victims into the helicopter. After that the weather slightly improved and we were able to float (fly) one meter above the ground, and recover the bodies directly. Then we had to look after the mother and complete all sorts of bureaucratic formalities.''

Suggestions to limit access to mountains such as Mount Dolent, the Italian military leader thinks are nonsensical. ,, It’s for a fact that the mountain will claim victims. On our side of Mont Blanc, in the Valle d'Aosta, about 15 to 20 per year, and on the French side, at Chamonix, even 50 to a 100. But you have to consider that millions of people climb up the mountain, and greatly enjoy it, also because of the tension (adventure). We cannot put an end to that. We can point out the dangers to people, we can make sure they are well-informed and direct them to mountainguides, but ultimately it remains everyone's individual responsibility.''

Ten kilometres away, on the Grandes Jorasses campsite at the foot of the Mont Blanc massif, where the Dutch Germs family camped for two weeks, there is an atmosphere of defeat. The family was part of a group of more than thirty Dutch mountaineers, who are now sitting at their campsite and gazing in front of them.

Also owner Nadir Ducret is badly shaken. ,, Our camping exists for 42 years already, but we have never experienced anything like this. Four members of one family: the mountain has never before been so greedy.''

Ducret and his mother and sister have come to know the Germs family well. ,, Especially the father, because he spoke French. He was a nice, cheerful man, always in for a chat in the morning. I myself have three children too, but much younger, and the relationship of these parents with their son and daughters served as an example to me. And now this disaster. Yesterday afternoon everyone here was still cheerful and happy, and now everything has suddenly turned sad and ugly.''


Source : http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/2474735/Vader_trachtte_kinderen_nog_te_redden.h...

Father still tried to save children

COURMAYEUR - The four members of the Germs family from Almere (Netherlands), who on Thursday died before the eyes of Ada - the mother - in the Italian Alps, have not acted really foolish. But they have made mistakes. This is said by Delfino Viglione, maresciallo ( "Marshal") of the Alpine Emergency Corps, who has headed the recovery crew.

,, The Dutch were reasonably experienced and had the proper clothing and equipment. The weather conditions too were excellent. But they were with too many tied to the same cord. Two or three, that’s possible if you descend in a row, but four will soon become too many. And also for people with experience it’s recommendable to hire a guide out there'', argues the lieutenant, pointing at the glaciers of the wild Mont Blanc-massif.

His team was able to make a reconstruction of the fatal falls. It would then appear that the son probably headed the descent from Mount Dolent. He was followed by his two sisters Els and Karin, with father Piet Germs being the last one.

According to Viglione the son stumbled and the sister who followed him was unable to react quickly enough. When she too went down on the ground, the other sister followed and the father as well could no longer hold. ,, He did try though: we found traces of his ice axe in the spot where the fall began.''

In reply to mieke:

Sorry I misunderstood who you were referring to.

Back on topic. The thread, and in particular Signorelli's contributions, was significant enough for NY-based 'About.com: Climbing' to link and quote from it:

http://climbing.about.com/b/2008/07/26/dutch-family-killed-in-the-alps.htm


There are no further details re. the accident in the Dutch press meanwhile, apart from yesterday's explanation in De Telegraaf that the mother had simply been too tired to join the climb all the way up. And therefore it was agreed she'd stay behind and take a rest, waiting for her family to return. They briefly spoke with eachother by cellphone once the four climbers had summited. They took a short rest, and than began their descent.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/1563331/__Moeder_te_moe_om_mee_te_klimme...

In reply to PeterM:

A terrible tragedy. For the wife/mother it is a nightmare beyond comprehension. I see that "she later identified the bodies".

In this day and age of other scientific means of identification I have often wondered at the necessity for next of kin to have to go through this additional trauma, not only in this case but in all cases of sudden death? I don't think I could do it and it is a terrible thing to expect anyone to do.

My heart goes out to her and all their family and friends.

Definitely the most tragic accident I've ever heard of. The poor mother and friends.

Not to judge too much, but I'm more and more convinced that the way to cross exposed snow slopes when you are with friends of equal abilities is to take the rope off in nearly all cases. Of course with the above accident, you could assume a roped technique would be more applicable, however in that case he could have lowered the children one by one on 60m rope lengths from secure stances, employed running belays with deadmen, etc. However on short exposed snow slopes linking roped terrain, you often keep the rope on in the name of speed so I am reluctant to judge too much. In any case it is a very sad story that I hope we can all at least learn from.

Two more similar accidents to consider that I haven't yet had time to write threads about here:

1) An Estonian women was decending the normal route of the Aig du Chardonney, having just climbed the summit via the Forbes arete, slipped on the snow/ice and fell more than 300 meters, coming to a stop in the bergshrund below. Two French climbers called the PGHM for a body recovery and my partner and I helped translate and set up rappels for the poor other Estonians in the party. We were all quite traumatized since two of my group saw the accident first hand, but the Estonians were traumatized to a point we feard they might not descend safely... we followed them closely until the glacier.

Thankfully the group was not roped together at the time, since the snow was well past the limit of even short roping techniques. The only options were to climb down solo or set up rappels, for the party of equal abilities. The rappels would have taken a very long time but as the group seemed to lack sufficient crampon techniques and there was no rush on the weather, perhaps this would have been the better option... the woman simply slipped while making a change in direction. The slope was only about 30 degrees but quite hardpack and obviously fatally exposed.

2) Last year I watched in horror as a friend of mine last year fell around 100 meters down the Vallee Blanche side of the Midi-Plan Traverse route. He luckily bounced his was down a 50 degree snow slope, narrowly avoiding some rather nasty cliffs just to his right. The fall was caused when he fell into a hidden bergshrund, throwing him off balance backwards and upside down as he fell down the slope. We had just completed the rappels and were coiling the ropes to continue and he had just wanted to move a few meters to a more stable position to help pull down the cords.

Again thankfully we were not roped together, since we would have pulled each other down the slope for sure given my own exposed position still on the mixed terrain... we had completed the climb until then unroped on all the snow sections due to the near impossibility to protect and since we both climb at the same level. Snow conditions were not ideal however, and as my partner had not led anything up until that point he lacked enough local terrain knowledge to realize the danger he was in...

3) On the same Midi-Plan traverse last year, our own Tobias at Home was climbing with one other English climber when that climber slipped on a section of the exposed North-facing slopes. Fortunately snow conditions were quite soft, so although his partner wasn't able to self arrest his fall did not generate too much force to the point where the rope went taught. Still, Toby was pulled off balance and began falling himself. But somehow the two managed to slowly come to a stop.

Be safe out there........................

In reply to Trangia: There are fairly obvious good reasons for it,and my experience is that most people want to see the bodies of loved ones,even if they are not too pretty.

In reply to Gael Force:

Does this not beg the question ,why would you take all your children with you on any mountain trip?, with the inevitable risks involved.

In reply to Gael Force:

It's not how I would want to remember my last sight of loved ones.

In reply to Trangia:
>It's not how I would want to remember my last sight of loved ones.

Sorry Trangia: but you weren't asked the question.

I'm convinced the Italians have done their duties the best way they could under present laws. And I'm convinced they've done their utmost to spare the lady as much as possible.
And as for people's (survivors') choices in such moments: there is no way anyone can tell in advance what s/he'll decide to do, and what not. So have a little respect, please.

In reply to PeterM: very sad indead, i feel for the mother/wife.

In reply to mieke:

Please don't accuse me of disrespect as none was intended. I was merely questioning the legal nessessity to put anyone through the additional trauma of formal identification when there are other scientific methods. Of course if that is a person's choice it is an entirely different matter.

I was wrong to link this sentiment to this particular tragedy, and was making a general comment on a matter I have felt strongly about for many years. If this was interpreted as being disrespectful I appologise.

In reply to PeterM:

This is so sad. My older children are just starting to get to climbing age and this sort of thing just freaks me out. It is so easy for it to happen...

Some comments?

1. Never have 4 on a rope shortroping. Shortroping (with no pro) is totally legitimate and works (see http://www.irl.cri.nz/newsandevents/innovate/Innovate63/Mountainsafetytechn... )
but only of the rope is kept tight - not possible with 4 persons. Also one person will probably not stop 2 who are slipping. Shortroping needs the most experienced climber higher up the slope (descending)with a tight rope to the next. My understanding (but maybe a guide can say) is that no coils should be held, and that the belay point should be at waist not chest level so the violent tug if there is a slip comes low down with less tendency to pull the belayer head first down the slope. The critical thing with short roping is to make sure no momentum is built up - any slack and it wont work. Personally I would only use it with a pair. Guides often have two clients being shortroped but I bet they are cacking it when the snow gets bad. If both clients went at the same time I reckon its down to luck whether the guide could stop them or not.


2. Soft chossy snow is really bad - often worse than you realise, particularly when someone starts sliding. I had a friend slip down a 30 degree slope a few meters in shite soft snow, not very fast, I pretty casually went to stop him on an ice axe belay, which just ripped straight out and we both went about 400 metres. Start very early and get back down as early as possible.

3. If you are late and on really bad snow, or in rock boots or some other bad shit, where if one of you goes then you both go, then the following has worked for me. Trample a stance with a big bucket seat and bracing for legs. First person descends kicking massive, safe steps, tight on the rope, up to full rope length. If they slip they will be easily held. If you only have 1 axe between you, the first person descends without an axe. At the end of the rope they kick a stance and pray/cry. The second then descends with the axe using the nice freshly kicked steps. Obviously, if they slip, this is basically game over. I guess it would be totally legit to unite at this point, as the rope is only endangering the first person down, and doing nothing for the climber. However, this might create tension in what is already a pretty tense situation. Repeat. I reckon this is safer than unroping as the first person down is belayed and if the steps or slope goes they are in a much better position. Two teams of two could obviously do this in series or parallel.

All in all those 30-40 degree soft snow slopes are seriously nasty, and have probably killed an awful lot of people - more I would guess than steeper ice or rock sections, due to non-existent pro, inherent instability and rapid build up of momentum.

In reply to PeterM:

Condolences to the family and friends of all those involved.

For those of you posting here to critise them, do you really think an initial post advertising such an accident is the place for this. Imagine how you would feel reading what you say from their family point of view at this time.

In reply to Trangia:

This probably ought to be on a separate thread, but I think there's good reason to have a witness see the body - it's a damned sight harder to fake than a DNA test which isn't observed all the way through by any individual and which has many points at which a sample could be switched to produce a false result. However cruel it appears to ask a friend or family member to identify the body, at least it gives no room for false hope - and little room for shenanigans.

Back to the OP though - I feel sorry for the rescue team who had to go up there knowing they were likely to confirm this woman's worst fears.

In reply to psd:

It must be reminded that, particularly after of a mountain tragedy, the body recognition procedure is done with the maximum possible tact, and never pressuring the witness, or going against his will. This is particularly true for the Courmayeur and Chamonix morgue, where (quite unfortunately) they have to deal with this all too often.


Indeed, I understand that some of the people involved in this operation felt it has particularly painful. Unfortunately, this is part of the duty of mountain rescue, not the glamorous work some of people believes.

Not to forget however mrs. De Jong, who had to bear the full weight of this tragedy, and more than anyone else, deserves all our sympathy and thoughts in this tragic moment.

While perhaps not really 'newsworthy' to this board for obvious and okay reasons, some contributors and/or readers of this thread may like to know that the four victims of this tragedy will be buried, in their hometown, Friday next (August 1.)

In Dutch, among a great many similar newsreports: http://www.dag.nl/1090793/NIEUWS/Artikelpagina-Nieuws/Alpinistengezin-vrijd...


= = = = = = = =

In reply to pingod (Sunday, 19:09 h)

No, I think it does not. Firstly because I'm in my fifties now, although my parents used to take me up to countless European mountains while I was still a toddler or a child. Secondly, with all respect, but did you ever consider how many of us are entirely used to getting in a car with all of our family, including babies and toddlers, with us? And just how do you estimate the risks concerned then?
No offence, but let me give you an example of what happened to a Dutch family rather near the British town (community) of Findhorn (Scotland), just a few days ago. They too had brought their children, in their car...
In English: http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/Crash-raises-road-safety-concerns-62565592...
In Dutch: http://www.elsevier.nl/web/10197181/Nieuws/Laatste-24-uur/Vader-en-zoon-kom...

= = = = = = = = = = =

In reply to those of you who've discussed IDENTIFICATION here, and in particular Trangia, no matter there's no doubt s/he means well:

Pléase don't forget that anything to do with "DNA"
a] usually takes a (very) long time to lead to 100% reliable results ;
b] how does that translate to relatives who - one way or the other - need to arrive at some sort of "ceremony" and "closure"? Not only for themselves, but for an entire community too? ;
c] People are absolutely not the same. What seems incomprehensible and unbearable to some of us, is not necessarily unbearable to everyone. It can feel like an obvious duty (of care) too.

Speaking for myself, I know that I would basically ALWAYS want to get the chance myself to see proof that any loved one(s) have perished. As long as my eyesight is well enough, this is a fundamental matter that at least I would néver want to leave up to any (DNA) laboratory "techniques", involving total strangers. No matter the circumstances.

= = = = = = = = =

FYI http://www.12vda.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4041&...

In Italian: an analysis of the Mt. Dolent tragedy.
F.e. this may come in useful: http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en

= = = = = = = = = =

The Mont Blanc Massif demanded yet another victim today, July 30. A 50 yr old, experienced enough, mountainguide... A TRUE RESCUER:

Ancora un incidente sul Monte Bianco: muore, scivolando da un costone, una guida alpina di Ivrea
http://www.12vda.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4061&...

In reply to Luca Signorelli:


These words turned today somehow sadly prophetic, as Roberto Giovanetto, a 50 years old guide from Ivrea (near Turin) died this afternoon on a freak accident above the Eccles bivy hut, near the start of Innominata ridge and the Freney Central pillar on the south face of Mt. Blanc. Robert had left his client into the hut, and gone on a short reconaissance up Pic Eccles to verify the conditions of next day route. For still unknown reason he has slipped, falling for 300m on the glacier below. His client, and the other people who were at the Eccles couldn't do anything else that call the VdA rescue to recover his body.

Roberto was an excellent guide and a cheerful man, and was a regular contributor on several Italian climbing forums. Actually, several of the photo report I've linked in this and other UKC threads were his own. Roberto was also a keen icefall climber, particularly in Cogne, and I believe many UKC reader may have met him at Bar Licone, or on the icefalls. He will be greatly missed by his friends and colleagues

In reply to psd:

Also with 2-5% chance of non-paternity the DNA test could cause additional trauma.

In reply to RocknRoll
>Also with 2-5% chance of non-paternity the DNA test could cause additional trauma.


At the risk of losing my UKC-forumregistration: why don't you just F*CK OFF please?

In reply to mieke: I understand your emotions, I think RnR is just a little naive, has too little experience and maybe is too far way to understand the possible impact of his posts.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I think RnR is just a little naive, has too little experience and maybe is too far way to understand the possible impact of his posts.

No, I'm with Mieke on this one. He's a completely insensitive tosser with sod all respect.

In reply to mieke:

What on earth is your problem? You've got the wrong end of the stick.

There is 2-5% non-paternity ie. a child is not of their father due to the mother being unfaithful. This is a real fact. So to suggest that a DNA test be done if a man wanted to identify a deceased child would result in a failed result in 1 in 20 cases.

In reply to RocknRoll: A bit distasteful to bring that fascinating fact up in this thread.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Relevent to the debate on DNA identification and I would not have brought it up if it wasn't completely irrelevent to the tragic case that started the thread.

Thanks guys, minus RocknRoll who imho still needs to learn a few facts about how societies function best.

In reply to the latest replies:
The thread had a rather distasteful 'encounter' over the past weekend already. One or more moderators all soon tidied it up. No reason to fear they'll let us down this time...

In reply to RocknRoll: Disagree. Its probably the last thing on anyones mind who knew these people.

In reply to mieke:

Yawn,

I think you are getting too involved in this case and taking it too seriously. Take some time out.

In reply to RocknNRoll

(Internet) troll...

Do I (we) now need to assume that "Trangia" = "RocknRoll", re. the link and emphasis about repeatedly bringing up the alleged advantages of modern identification techniques? Instead of personal identification?

Any word on that, UKC mods? Both their IP-addresses?

In reply to mieke:

You are scary

In reply to mieke:

Do I (we) now need to assume that "Trangia" = "RocknRoll"

No, don't be silly.

lsn

In reply to mieke:

Please stop your rather pointless and stupid speculation, particularly on this very sensitive thread. I have already appologised publically if my views inadvertently showed disrespect. You seem to have a problem in accepting that not everyone holds your views and this is not a matter of disrespect. I have no need to and no intention of impersonating anyone else, and I don't wish to get involved in an argument, this is not the place, but I am finding your rather obsessive speculation insulting.

In reply to Trangia: Mieke has a long history of plaguing a number of Nepal trekking boards. She took it upon herself to champion the cause of a few unfortunate trekkers who have lost their lives whilst trekking in Nepal. She admits to having never visited the country herself and it is not clear whether she has actually travelled outside of her own country at all. Despite this she will regularly spout all manner of information (some of it quite inaccurate if you actually know the places she is talking about) that she has gleaned from the internet but normally with her own very cynical, depressing outlook on the situation.

This post is exactly like all her others. She will pick up on a tragedy and become emotionally involved with it despite it having nothing at all to do with her. This case is unusual in that it is a little closer to home for her. She will then get more and more feverish in her posting and if anyone dares to argue with her or tell her to pipe down she will start getting more and more nasty, all the time feeling justified in what she is doing as no-one should question her intentions as there is a tragedy involved and she is trying to do something "good".

On the Nepal trekking boards everyone tries at first to deal with her reasonably but that invariably fails as she will become more vehement and snarling until she has to be ignored like a troll. She will never back down due to her self-righteousness as she believes she is defending a cause that needs championing. Any objection made that she is in fact being extremely disrepectful to the families involved is met with short shrift. This however is nearly always the case with her but she can't see it.

To All and Trangia: Please don't argue with her any more it won't get you anywhere. You have already seen on this thread what she is like. It will just carry on the same until you back down or she is banned.

If you don't believe me check out those forums I mentioned.

Cheers

In reply to Luca Signorelli:


Very sorry to hear about Roberto's accident Luca. When I went to the Eccles hut, the last vertical 200m was pretty frightening due to rotten snow conditions, fortunately it was hard frozen overnight, so retreating the next day was pretty safe. Of course I don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding Roberto, who I am sure knew that this was a serious part of the range. Just shows that Alpinism is dangerous, and that anyone's luck can run out.

In reply to Simon4:

The accident happened apparently not much above the hut, but I'm being told it doesn't seem to have been related to snow - either the scree slope moved under his weight, or Roberto had some sudden health problem (which is unlikely, but still possible)



Yes, he knew that area very well, and yes, his luck run out. I find particularly poignant he died there, as last year he posted a wonderful report of his recent climb of the South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire, in the 25th anniversary of the first time he climbed it.

http://www.4026.it/pws/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_pa...

The last words he wrote are, read in retrospective, extremely hauting:

"I take a last look to the black shape of the South Ridge, and I'm suddenly sad thinking that one day I could not afford anymore these little adventures. But right now I feel that moment it's still far off in the future."

Roberto was really one of the old school, and his passion was traditional alpinism. However, he was really interested on the crag development - his last project was the re-equipment of Montestrutto, a small but delightful crag right at the beginning of the Aosta valley (it's easy to spot from the highway)

http://www.4026.it/pws/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_pa...

Sad to think that someone else will finish his job...

In reply to Luca Signorelli: I think the Aiguille Noire is a wonderful mountain - stunning from all angles, as photogenic as a supermodel. The Blanche is amazing from some points of view, but quite mundane from others - the Noire leaves it standing as an all round mountain.

Roberto sounds like a great mountaineer, with a passion for just getting out and making the best of whatever could be done given the weather, his own situation and condition. Above all, it sounds like he had not got the slightest bit jaded by being a guide, being so familiar with the mountains and having them so close. May he rest in peace.

A great loss and a tragedy as poignant, in a different way, as the one that happened to the Dutch family.

The mountains can be a cruel mistress sometimes.

In reply to Simon4:

Very true. The Noire is really one of the great enigmas of Alpine topography - looks like it's been designed by a committee of Dolomite-born Tolkien enthusiast after listening too much Black Sabbath. It's scary, and deliberately so - it WANTS to be scary.

"La Blanche" is a remarkable mountain by itself, quite elegant and aloof, a bit all like an "oh yes, I'm really elegant and aloof, didn't I mention I'm elegant and quite aloof too, in case you've noticed", and in a different context it would be scene stealer... but then all the glances are stolen by that gothic, black, scary, throne shaped, 2.1 vertical km high "thing" right in front of it...



Yes, by all accounts he was one of those (alas, more and more rare) guides who are more interested in being good guides rather than world class mountaineers, and whose focus is on their profession and their love for the mountains. They still exist, here and there.

Yes, they're cruel sometimes. They don't care about how much we love them.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

You do write well, communicating both fact and feeling.

Thanks.

lsn

It's been Friday now, the 1st of August. And as the thread shows, fatal climbing accidents keep happening. In Holland a great many people meanwhile said a definite farewell to the four victims of the Mt. Dolent tragedy of last week.


http://www.gooieneemlander.nl/nieuws/regionaal/gooivechtstreek/article37370...

The 'WE' is now forever over

Almere -- Many have wondered in recent days what it must have been like for Mrs. Ada de Jong to see her husband and their three children die before her very eyes last week Thursday. ,, I am grateful that I've seen it'', the woman said Friday afternoon during an impressive memorial service. ,, Because I now know everything and have no more questions.''

The widow made a particularly strong impression during the memorial service and said she is convinced that her loved ones did not really suffer terribly. That knowledge was shared with her by people who did survive a fall in the mountains. Human functioning is something beautiful, and a fall like that creates an almost automatic shut-down of all senses and systems.

The white, cheerfully painted coffins containing the bodies of the Almere GP and the three children, during the service stood in a row in the auditorium of Almere’s Meergronden College. Portraits of Piet, Els, Mark and Karin were placed on the coffins. That way they were still part of the gathering a bit. But nevertheless there is a big difference now. ,, The “WE” is now forever over.''

During the memorial service for these climbers who perished in Italy, it’s the “WE” that kept being emphasised. At an earlier meeting of members of the skating club ASV, Mrs. Ada de Jong had also speeched. According to one of the club’s trainers, that had meant a lot to those who attended.

Following the memorial service, the bodies of the four residents of Almere were buried in Almere-Haven cemetery.


~ ~ ~

http://www.almerevandaag.nl/nieuws/almere/article3737735.ece/Nu_is_er_geen_...

~ ~ ~

In reply to Luca Signorelli:
I agree with Lowersharpnose; your contributions are well-written, informative, insightfull and sensitive.
I realise that this thread has stopped for some time now, but I only read this today, coming back from Austria. We climbed Grossglockner, roped up in a party of four... I'm trying to learn as much as possible from these comments about safety on steep snow.
One question remains: the reports state that the father tried to stop the slide but failed. Was he the only one with an ice axe? Was there no evidence that the others tried to brake their own slide?
In all comments on roping up it is assumed that the top climber will have to stop the whole party. Surely it makes a difference if all members have ice axes and are trained to use them? In the past I've been in a situation where the combined effort of four succeeded in stopping the whole party. With the fourth person having the largest contribution, because he had more time to react and 'dig in'.

In reply to Peter Jan:


A reasonable (unofficial) reconstruction of the accident is that the first - lowest climbed slipped because of snow under his crampons, and the rope between he and the climber immediately above was slack enough to made he/her fall as well. The father (who at the top of the rope) and the climber immediately below him tried to arrest the fall (and the father continued even after the entire team had begun sliding down the slope), but unfortunately, the snow was too soft (it was around noon of a hot day) and the momentum of the falling bodies at this point impossible to control. In a team of four, two climber falling with enough slack are well enough to pull away the other two, unless they're already well belayed/self protected.

Arresting a fall on snow, on a 45° slope, is not as easy as some climbing manual makes it - simply inserting the axe shaft in the snow may be useless if the angle isn't right, the snow is soft and the fall factor you're trying to stop is too high. Keeping the rope tight so the fall is arrested immediately (actually - the fall does not happen!) is a critical safety factor, but may be not enough.

What makes the whole thing even more sad is that there is a simple, relatively straightforward abseil descent (two abs) on the opposite side of the shoulder 3774 leading directly to the col below - however, it's likely the didn't knew about it.