UKC

Signs in the mountains are a contentious issue with most serious hill walkers, climbers and mountaineers against them. But with the increasing numbers of people venturing into the UK's mountains and hills some have suggested that warning signs about being well-equipped and experienced, as well as signposts alerting people to steep drop offs or rocky ridges could save lives.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Think Mike has hit the nail on the head

"This proposed urbanisation of the wild mountain environment is totally unacceptable to our members"

Why do certain authorities always take the approach of "someone could get hurt therefore something must be done". In reality, the more you try to protect people from stupidity, the more stupid they become !

In reply to Chris the Tall: Spot on, I wonder why some people believe it is their responsibility to legislate for the stupitidy of others.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: I'm suprised we haven't seen this earlier - look at the alps - fingerposts and red and white paint splashes abound.

In reply to toad:

i think the government should enact legislation to ensure that on the inside of everyone's front door there's a sign saying "the outdoors is dangerous, it could be cold and wet, there's maniacs out there who'll knock you down with their cars, that's if you dont' get robbed or stabbed on the way to the shop... et c."

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Has anyone addressed the counter-intuitive point that signs can actually increase the numbers of incidents?

Seeing signs and market posts create an unconscious feeling of safety - sort of "Well, it's the proper path so it must be OK". Thus folk who wouldn't normally consider it venture up that way.

It's similar psychology to the removing of abseil posts & the shelter in Coire Leis - knowing they were there was luring people into trouble.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Mike's best point is that "people who ignore the obvious dangers presented early on the ascent of Crib Goch will not be the sort of people to turn back at a sign post"

In reply to Alun: There's a sign post already there though, and it's before the early dangers...

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

There's a railway and what is little short of a road pushed to the top of Snowdon, several well worn trenches that pass for paths, not to mention the cafe and 100's of people every weekend. It's hardly a wilderness area! Why not have some inobtrusive signs if they will actually help, if you don't think you need them then walk on past like all the errosion and litter most see fit to ignore/step over.

jk

I don't think signs on the mountain would be a good idea. Don't they already have one in the major car parks?

In reply to jkarran:


I suggest that they will not help; and that there'd be more incidents not less.

In reply to KeithW:


Maybe but without a trial it's just guesswork really. I have no idea what the majority of incidents on Snowden are, if I had to bet I'd go with turned ankles on the walking (as opposed to scrambling) sections. Also I imagine a fair few of the incidents on Crib Goch (sp?) involve 'experienced' folk who get careless. On that basis I'm inclined to agree with you but it'd be interesting to see if they did make a difference over a couple of years.
jk

In reply to Garry Hughes:

Exactly. Whenever there's a thread about signs on Crib Goch I always want to scream "there's already a sign there!!". What more do they want to do? If the current sign isn't sufficient, what difference will a new one make?

I don't think signs are really needed here though - a quick glance at a map shows it's a knife-edge ridge after all. Hardly unexpected when you get on it!

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: i feel that putting signs up would encorage people without the nessesary skills to undertake routes they dont understand the danger of, i have the phrase
"but honey it must be safe as there are signs to tell us where to go"

warning signs in the car park, yes im for that, but any kind of route finding signs on a mountain f**k off!

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Yep, signs = more ill-prepared muppets heading out. What happens when it's dark? Or a sign get blown down by the wind?!

In reply to jkarran:

I don't have any figures to back up the strong hunch I have about this; but I think the example I mentioned on Nevis supports it.

I think you're right about the majority of incidents being 'turned ankles'; that seems to be the most common accident in all MRT reports.

I have seen folk on Crib Goch who shouldn't have been there, who were clearly weren't expecting the exposure, and maybe signs would have made them think twice. But the pair that stick most in my memory were clad in just jeans and trainers, very unsteady in the wind, could see how narrow the ridge was in front, had concerned comments from other walkers, and yet still carried on. Hard to see how a sign would have helped them.

In reply to jkarran:



It would be very difficult to design a trial that would fairly quantify this. The short term effect would almost certainly be fewer accidents but it's the longer-term effects that worry people: more molly-coddling leads to complacency in the inexperienced and removes opportunities to gain experience. Any short-term, localised trial would pick up the first effect but not the second so would give a misleading result. My gut feeling it that the long-term effect would be detrimental but I'm not sure how that could ever be demonstrated to 'the powers that be'.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: as was mentioned before - it's hardly a wilderness area - there's must be a thousand who cross it on a summer's day. i say sacrifice it to save the rest of snowdonia.

is there anyway a road could be put into the side of crib goch so people could do the horseshoe in a 4x4?

actually, didn't someone try to do it on a motocross bike?

In reply to djviper:
>

Interesting what happens in NZ.

There you have signs saying 'Alpha hut 1 hr' 'Mt Holdsworth 30min' and arrows, around 1000 backcountry huts equipped with beds, toilets and stoves.

I'm not sure their model will work in a country as populated as the UK, but its an interesting way to look at things.

In reply to djviper:

No signs to "Mount Ogwen" then?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Quite clearly what we need are 'patrols' of good walkers, a sort of 'Mountain assistance', to patrol the area of Bwlch Moch and warn walkers of the dangers. http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=281387&v=1#x4176149

In reply to Tobias at Home:


now then that would be a sight .....


signs are not required on the route the bi-lingual mountain safe leaflet should be reprinted and available everywhere and people should see it online somewhere ?

I don't know of an electronic version - does anyone ? surely the PDF from the printers can be uploaded.


At the end of the day you cant stop the sill people from going up Snowdon can you .... a few catch the train up and decide to walk down others start from Llanberis late afternoon with flop flops and a carrier bag and a few bottles of pop / water ( they don't carry them down again at best they end up under a rock or over the side of Cwm Hetiau !!)

Just a thought....

You don't see signs in cities warning country visitors about knife attacks, muggers and the location of the nearest red light district do you ?

or did I miss them the last time I visited a city ....

In reply to Neil Adams:


Potentially regression to mean. Snowden is very popular where as other mountains are not as popular. I don't have a problem with some signage in the very popular/partucularly accident prone areas since anybody who is serious about obtaining a "wilderness experience" will go elswhere to avoid the snowdon crowds anyway. I would like the majority of the hills to remain un-signed though.

In reply to IainRUK:


Spain is the same

Personally I don't find a sign like this intrusive

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/70/226351040_38e4fd7b84.jpg

I know when I was in the Pyrennees we were grateful for signs to refuges, mostly because the maps weren't very reliable. The symbol for one particular refuge was sat between two parallel paths, however one path was several hundred metres higher than the other, so knowing which path to take wasn't possible from the map alone.

In this country the situation is slightly different in that maps are so good so you don't have the same issues.

In reply to ebygomm: Yeah, these are the NZ ones. Most put up by DoC (Dept of Conservation)

http://bp3.blogger.com/_IoDbwwAfbtY/Rq5mD-pw81I/AAAAAAAABkA/BN9w6YW-b4o/s16...

I had no issues with in. I'd have preferred them to use distances rather than times as you were always trying to guess, but at least it provided people with good info. Over there many people would go out without any maps and walk via sign posts, even through quite remote terrain. I still preferred a map, as I like to know where I am, but I suppose if you can't read a map, why have one.

In reply to ebygomm: in al lreality though, if a sign was placed, how long do you think it would remain until some militant rambler chopped it down...?

In reply to toad:

Wrong. In the UK, they don't use paint but they do use fingerposts in a lot of places where there's a farm gate or stile. You'd see an acrylic arrow of some sort to point you which way the path goes especially in lowland areas. I did the Southern Upland Way in one go in 1996. Great deal of junctions were signposted.

Wrong that nothing is signposted on upland areas. Just look at how many cairns there are on the Lakes fells. The stupid thing is the British don't like reflector posts or using paint on rock. They prefer 'natural' gear like cairns. Stupid! They have the same effects.

In reply to Skinny Kin: I think the lowlands are a different situation. Where there are a lot of fences/ buildings, artificial and often frequently changing structures, I think appropriate and discreet signing is appropriate. In the uplands, it is much more about reading the landscape as a whole. This is not to say that there should be no signs. There are certainly a few cases where some signposting or other indicator, including paint marks, may be appropriate

But there is a tendency on many of the alpine footpaths - to over sign and over sanitise, but there has always been more of a culture of this (many refuge/ buvette places have effectively erected hoardings in some places)

You're right about cairns. It seems ludicrous to improve path surfaces to reduce the visual impacts if you're going to leave the endless piles of rock in place.

bizarrely, when you were doing the Southern Upland way I was walking le TMB, which is where I was first struck by the signing contrasts

In reply to Wilbur:

Routes throughout continental europe get waymarked without major problems. Finger post signs at the right places are apropreate. Given that a lot of the paths we are talking about have been paved over the last 10 years and upgraded into "national park motorway" and staircases that are like something out of middle earth (the one up the devils kitchen feels longer than the winding stair up to the pass of cryth ungol my preciousssss) calling it wilderness is not that right.

On Snowdon there are plenty of signs most of them in the right places, marking the exits of the miners track/pyg track and snowdon ranger paths on to the summit ridges (the last esptially important as there are serrious accidents from people getting that wrong even with it in place). As for crib goch a sign at the col saying pyg track this way is whats needed and in place. That is where the easy (sutable for the whole famillys of muppets who regularly use it) path diverges from the difficult (enjoyable for hard core hill walkers) route. The map reading at that point is quite subtle and there are good clear paths on the ground for both routes. The problem isn't dark (its not a place the muppets will get confused in descent), or poor vis its parties looking for the pyg track getting on to the snowdon horseshoe in good weather. The current waymarking on snowdon is far better than the random cairnage you get on a lot of paths. High level paths in the UK were/are/will be waymarked, the task is making those marks unobtrosive and useful rather than environmentally damaging and misleading.

In reply to Skinny Kin: Much as I don't think warning signs are needed on Snowdon, I would much rather the UK used discrete paint markings (as on eg French GR) rather than signposts as often found esp on rights of way or even to cairns which are far more intrusive.

And I don't mind a sign on a col as often found in the alps, sometimes I've been glad to find I was where I hoped to be but do get annoyed at unnecessary warning signs or over the top waymarking (there are some classics in the Vosges)

In reply to Doug:

Like the red dot route up the Glyders behind the Pen Y Gwryd ?

In reply to KeithW:


I'd be careful with that kind of thing somebody once bawled out a pair of such idiots in suits and city shoes just there, the pair were Ed Hillary and G. Lowe.....

In reply to Skinny Kin: The stupid thing is the British don't like reflector posts or using paint on rock. They prefer 'natural' gear like cairns. Stupid! They have the same effects. Where are these reflecting cairns?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

I like the idea of patrolling

something like the Belay Police who should have the right to out anyone not using "current best practice" as defined on SPA courses

Maybe to escort badly equipped or deemed-incompetent or unsuitable parties off the hill

Endorsements could even be issued

In reply to davidwright:
There is a huge difference between simple waymarking (purely informative) and the sign warning about the dangers of doing a particular route

The only time I've ever seen the latter in continental Europe is at the start of via ferratas (and I don't think it's necessary there either)

Mind you I have a problem with excessive waymarking too - the brain is a muscle which needs to be exercised. Try and make something idiotproof and the idiot will just become more idiotic !

In reply to davidwright:


Yes that did occur to me after I wrote that.

But trust me; these two really didn't know what they were doing, and worse, didn't want to listen to others who did.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Signs at the main entry points, Llanberis path and Pen Y Pass, possibly yes. Signs anywhere els along the most favoured routes, No.

Removal of all the large cairns on the PYG track , Yes, I always take some stones and boulders off the cairns and I get groups who are with me to remove them as well. The paths would be much better if mindless tourists didn't rip them up to build useless cairns. I saw one bloke pick up a nice flat slab of rock that must have weighed a good 30kg and put it on top of the cairn, the slab was part of the path, 2 of us took it off and replaced it in front of him explaining the reason why, we were also very diplomatic with our choice of words, the guy did look sheepish and carried on with his walk.

Some of the cairns are now very large indeed and also very close together, if you need 5 feet high piles of rock to show the way on a clear and now well eroded path you shouldnt be out in the hills.

If anyone fancies a day out removing the cairns and carefully replacing them in to one of the empty heli-bags that are blowing around then feel free to get in touch.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to Snowdonia Adventures: I'm not 100% certain that this is cut and dried as e generalisation.
I build cairns on the paths I make up to crags in Spain. The difference is these paths are so little used that they are virtually unfollowable without the very small cairns that mark the way.
It's a very traditional method of waymarking in the mountains, and while I take your point on the regularly used footpaths in Snowdonia, there may be other areas even in the UK that the odd cairn is justified.
Nobody is more against handing it to people on a plate than I am, but there is a justifiable reason to keep paths open, and to keep people to them. We have all seen the damage that can be done to a hillside by paths becoming yards wide.
I realise some of these comments are a bit contradictory, I just feel with care, experience and intelligence cairns have their place.
It sounds like you were totally justified in pointing out the error of his ways to your example.

In reply to KeithW:

I think we should have signs, along with personal locator beacons

In reply to Chris the Tall:
I have seen them in other places where popular tourist paths split from proper high mountain routes. There is a whole essay in 3 languages put up where the path from Nid d'agigle meets the tete rouse glacier.

The key is to get it right. A cairn marking the top of the pyg track/miners track is one thing. Cairns every 5m along it is another.

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

And experienced volunteer walkers, patrolling and giving us the benfit of their wisdom.

In reply to Ian McNeill:

You're telling people you don't have much logic!

Muggers are moveable objects. Where can you put a sign to warn people if they move around all the time? Now you're also telling people that you're not observant. For instance, the police do actually put up posters in certain places such as car parks to warn people not to leave valuables in their cars if they're cime blackspots. Or something in the line of 'beware of pickpockets'.

In London, you do see signs telling you which way to get to Soho. Again, you're not very observant.

For mountains, majority of the time, they're not moving or changing location much. It's easier to put a sign or two up.

In fact, just at Christmas, I walked up Carrnantouhill, the highest Irish mountain. There was a sign on a ridge a few yards from the summit cross; warning people it wasn't a descent route. The reasoning was that the ridge was probably used by climbers topping out. A track was formed. A great deal of walkers mistake it as a possible descent route. So the Kerry Mountain Rescue team put up a sign to warn people. I thought it did the job especially when it was misty even though I knew perfectly well which direction to get off.

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

Don't forget flares, or has your wife burned yours?

In reply to Snowdonia Adventures:

it's good luck to add a stone to a cairn....the bloke was obviously trying to redress the karmic balance you upset.

In reply to Al Evans:

In reply to sutty:


Nope I still have them, in purple corduroy

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: F*ck all this dilly-dallying bullshit. No signposts, waymarkers, clues left lying around etc. in the Scottish mountains.

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

I'll personal locator beacon you in a minute, sunshine.

In reply to aln: You have an ulterior motive?

Only two, keeping the paths open and keeping committed people alive, in Spain chavs dont stray beyond the roads and waymarked trails, the cairns are small and subtle, and need a relaxed knowledgeable approach to the mountains to be spotted. BUT, even this might be elitist, I make no apology for this.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: A lot of people replying to this topic with positive replies about signposting routes have a financial interest in that result.

In reply to aln:

How many and which ones?

In reply to aln:
You haven't been around for long then? It's the same as the posts that you get on roadsides in some mountain roads such as the Glenshee road. They're round about 7 feet tall. White ones on the right and red on the left, I think, to aid drivers to 'see' the road in white-out-ish conditions.
Lochaber MRT used the same idea to install some posts on the plateau of the Ben; it must've been 5/6 years ago. Some angry mysterious vandals went up to chop them down. All reported in the BMC Summit magazine. I thought the posts were a good idea to save lives. They'd save my time to navigate down in white-out. After so many times pacing your way down the Ben, you just can't be bothered any more. Someone taking away the hazzle is a great idea. After exerting yourself on a route on the Ben, the last thing you want is to make navigational error when coming down; even for the experience. It's easily done.

In reply to Skinny Kin: I've been around. You've seen 7ft tall shiny posts on the hill?

In reply to Al Evans: If chavs (not sure wot that means) don't stray beyond the roads then they don't need cairns. Wouldn't "committed " ( wot does that mean? ) people (if you mean climbers )be able to use a map and a compass?

In reply to IainRUK: it sounds a good idea, however i think there would be too little respect for the huts over here and the would end up stinking off piss and destroyed.
god ridge youve got a good memory!

In reply to Al Evans:

Obviously *do* cairns have a purpose, there is even one on a long climb in Scotland- to find the way down.

I don't like signposts with times or distances on them though, if I am out in the hills, it is the hill and me. I would like to have the freedom to get lost if I make a navigational error.

Here in germany is signposted, it makes me incredibly lazy- in the UK I would always take an OS map with me, here I really don't bother. I can use a map and compass, but it is not really needed here, which is a shame.

In places with bad maps it is useful to have signs, but in the UK with absolutely perfect OS map coverage there is no need to. (I've hiked in romania with rather cryptic maps- signposts were not completely redundant there)

In reply to aln:

Who?

We run a guiding business. Signs remove the need to have people to take them out in the hills.

In reply to Caralynr:

You would be surprised! I've lost count of how many times I've actually walked people off it, because they've "lost the path"!! Most of them hadn't even bothered to look it up on a map, never mind carry one. I doubt it if any of them would recognise what a knife-edge ridge would look like on a map.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
I havent read the whole of this thread, but I have a few points to make:
a) I dont want to see signs on the Snowdon Horseshoe

b) I do make use of the blue/red and white markers i nthe alps - I think theyre useful just to ease navigation to unobvious huts. They effectively take the place of paths for hut approaches etc (and are not the same as being suggested for Wales here). You dont see them or signposts up on the route in the alps though, if youre going high (and I wouldnt want to)

c) I think the idea of warnig nsigns on Crib Goch, Striding Edge or Sharp Edge is absurd. Any fool in their right mind can see there's a drop there. The point is that the yshouldnt go up it in the first place if they don't know what theyre doing, and putting signs ot warn the magainst it eg i nthe car park, would only encourage more fools to try it.

In reply to Si dH:
PS I am also in favour of cairns. I have no problem with navigation aid i nthe hills that are traditional, reasonably natural and not unsightly. I have also been thankful for them on many occasions, especially when younger. But having signposts warnign of drops is insane.

In reply to Si dH:
youd probably also get someone trying to abb off the post.

In reply to aln:

Bizarrely, there's one on the col between Sgorr Dhearg and Sgorr Dhonuil on Beinn a' Bheithir (the 'Ballachulish Horseshoe'). It says "Path To Coire Dearg Via Sgorr Dhonuill 1550 metres". I'm looking at the photo I took of it in September 2006 - I was most bemused to find such a thing there.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

I know it isn't the mountains, but the moors near Haworth have signposts in Japanese pointing the way to High Witherns. Consequently, you get loads of Japanese tourists often very unsuitably dressed/shod and unequipped other than a camera, trekking across the moors on unsuitable days. If it wasn't signposted, perhaps they would put more effort into thinking through their walk to it if they really are that bothered about going there.

Signs? NO!

By doing so we are losing our respect for the mountains and therefore may as well throw rubbish on the floor from then on and build mono rails up them. It's all the same to me.

In reply to Si dH:


So how would you get the message across to them if there are no signs in the car park and they can't see the the drop?

I'm not advocating signs per se - but one in the car park and one at the other end of Crib Goch might be acceptable - Snowdon is a special case given the amount of tourists wandering about. The summit area is already compromised, like it or not, by the station.

Nowhere else though.

Also on the topic of Cairns. Does any ever use them? I certainly don't. I can get myself off the top of routes when it's blowing a hoolie, in a white out and under my own steam with the map and compass I know how to use. If people can't do this, they shouldn't be there risking their lives.

In reply to ERU:

So then when not signs on Snowdon.

And yes people use Cairns. Look at how many appear all the time. They have been used for thousands of years. Look at Snowdon, the Finger stones have been a welcome sight for me a few times when running along the ridges at 2 or 3 am in driving rain and cloud. I could cope without them, but still use them as they are a reliable nav feature.

In reply to Bulls Crack:
I wouldnt have any obection to signs in the car park and at the cafe/railway station at the top, except that I don't think they'd work. They would give the danger that your average fool would have bee naiming for the tourist path, see the sign and think 'that sounds fun'. But if you could be sure they were going ot have the right effect, then great.

I against signs anywhere else though. Especially actually on the ridge, which is what I thought the article seemed to imply (I might not have rread it very carefully)

In reply to ERU: as some idiots build ramdom cairns i never believe em

In reply to Si dH:

Not on the ridge proper but where the path leaves the main ones? It needednt be a motorway sign. And one in the station obvioulsy.

is there not a sign at the top of that gully on Ben Nevis?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: a sign at the begining of the pyg path and a sign at lanberis, surely this is enough to warn anyone who isn't rightly equiped or in the state of mind to stay off this route, any more and you'd be aswell putting a hut every 100 yards on it to make sure people are ok

In reply to dannut89:

What about the Snowdon Ranger, Rhydd Dhu, and Bethania? I'm not against signs at carparks, I don't see that they are any different to car crime posters.

In reply to aln:
Wouldn't "committed " ( wot does that mean? ) people (if you mean climbers )be able to use a map and a compass?

You obviously don't know paths in Spain and the vegetation on them. They quickly overgrow unless people keep treading the path. On a compass bearing with a 'good' map (rare in Spain, they don't have OS here, but anyhow its irrelevant) point is people can vary there line by several meters and still be bang on forjust route fining, but if the actually path is not walked their legs , and anybody elses will get torn to shreds by the spiky vegetation. Thats why a few cairns are good, to keep the less walked paths open.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Gotta look on the bright side: at least they turned down the idea of the handrail on Crib Goch.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I think that aptly sums up the reasons for a lot of the problems in the world today

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: I had a dream last night, Probably brought on with looking at the sky masters course,

Stick a big concrete wall at the start with V4ish boulder problem to get over to get up to grib goch! Problem half solved.

(Sorry if this does not contribute anything to the debate bu t i really did dream it, Honest)

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Why don't they just take the opposite tack and ban Mountain Rescue assistance for anyone wearing jeans and trainers?

In reply to TRJ: Because there is nothing wrong with walking in jeans and trainers in the right circumstances.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Tell them how to read a map and use a compass
and tell the idiots that run the country and that
includes all goverment bodys to concentrate
on real issues.
You go into the MOUNTAINS and don't come back TOUGH!!!

In reply to Eban: Use of capitals, over use of 'Enter', but no '0's, not sure...

In reply to IainRUK:
are you one of them goverment IDIOTS!!!!

In reply to Eban:

He's making the point that you have a worryingly similar posting style to the late MT.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

the whole outdoor scene is terrifically unregulated. I'm not sure there shouldn't be a requirement to display a certificate of competence in a waterproof case at all times while out. A colour coded system could indicate competence of parents or individuals to have chldren out on Crib Goch. Rock Inspectres could check up on these randomly

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
"It traverses one of the most unique ridges in the land with only the Black Cuillin traverse of Skye offering a greater challenge."

The man from BBC Cymbru needs to get out a bit more...

In reply to Skinny Kin:

How? In a white-out you wouldn't see the posts. You certainly wouldn't be able to see from 1 post to another. Or is your definition of white-out different to mine?

In reply to Anonymous:
colour coded system could indicate competence of parents or individuals to have chldren out on Crib Goch.

You'd need some pretty level headed midwives to assist, surely.

In reply to freelancer_85:
I!!!! make no apologies to my feelings, i have very strong views on this subject, i rock climb, fell walk etc i started when i was 12 taught myself, we need more like minded people like whillans, kirkus, patey they were my insparation sadley that era has gone but not with me, i go out and if things go wrong then thats my fault no body else's MINE!!! i am not reckless and will not purposely put myself or the people who i take out with me into dangerous positions but teach them about awarness of their surroundings i could go on, to go climbing and fell walking is all about passion to be outdoors to be able to survive under your own ways and survive, and means and if you die nature won you lost!!!! their is no apprenticeship in this game you accept what could happen beginner or experienced. People who go out unprepared, well enough said. you are responsible for yor own actions, i can see whats going to happen if signs etc are put up, people injure themselves i can see an accident claim in the making. leave the mountains to the people who discover it themselves not promote it, its for people who have passion not for people who think it's a walk in the PARK!!!

In reply to Eban:

Do you do a lot of walking on your own?

If I found a sign for gormless tw*ts in a wild place that I deem unacceptable I'll just destroy the f*cking thing.

Problem solved.

In reply to Eban:

I thought Snowdon was in a NATIONAL PARK.

In reply to IainRUK:

In the 60's british Alpinists were called 'Das Bluejeans ' by the Germans. And it was quite true, a lot of the top UK alpinists doing early and first ascents in the Alps really did climb them in jeans. Or army surplus trousers which were little different. Corduroy and moleskin (its not really) breeches gradually became more popular in the very late 60's and early 70's.

In reply to tomski3:
>

So what the BMC/National park deem acceptable will be destroyed because one man deems it unnacceptable.

I somehow doubt you've been in the hills much as there are signs all over the place.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Mike Raine? Needs to get out more?

I'll tell him.......

(I think you'll find that should be 'BMC Cymru' - Mike doesn't work for auntie beeb)

What I would support is the removal of the 'path' (just a black dashy one) on the OS maps that goes over Crib Goch, as it is not just a path, but a graded scramble. I think that it would deter lot of rambler types, who just look at the map and think, let's go up there. It would encourage some people to check first to see if it was within their capabilities.

In reply to Cardi: See your point, not sure. There is a 'path' on the ground though, in places.

I thought there was a change in colouring of boundaries, from green, the colour of footpaths, because some people were following the 'green' path off Foel Goch down yr Esgair.

Not sure if that was true.

In reply to Cardi:
Alternatively a lot of foreign maps indicate 'graded ground' by use of a different colour to indicate the route - sometimes with a grade printed nearby. In the Tatra they even indicate the dates when the path is 'closed' in winter on the maps and some of the saddles have a one-way system in operation!

In reply to Andy Say:

I think you're probably right

And yes, he could do with getting out a bit more if he really thinks the challenge posed by Crib Goch is second only to that of the Cuillin

In reply to IainRUK:

There is also the green RoW marked down the cliffs on Moel Hebog too!

In reply to IainRUK:
Not such an issue in Wales but in the lakes the marked 'rights of way' on the OS maps are often at extreme variance with the actualite.

I know of two 'green' paths that go straight over crags or waterfalls and one that cuts a ruler-straight line up a horrible scree slope at an angle of 45 deg. The original mapping was obviously done in an office with a ruler joing two points with little reference to where the actual (black dotted) paths went! Interestingly it is those that do know a little about navigation who get most confused; those who know nothing don't even realise.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
He's just so busy putting up new routes on the slate and tidying up Tremadog.........

In reply to Andy Say: There's a few here where the National park built the new path away from the old track aren't there, and the map still shows the location of the old path?

I'm fairly sure its the section of the Snowdon Ranger, below Cynghorion, which is like that.

In reply to Andy Say:

Not necessarily. A green RoW is never an indication of a path on the ground! And vice versa. Rights of way are historical, and over the years the actualy course of the path might alter to something more pleasant on the legs. But the green RoW never changes (unless someone objects to one on their land and appeals to have it changed, etc).

In reply to IainRUK:
That's quite possible; and I do recall the Lakes park going through the unwieldy process of getting applying for some of the 'r-o-w' definitive maps to be changed as the 'green dotted line' didn't overlay the actual path and could potentially lead 'green dotted line followers' into trouble. As I said I think that the basis of the problem in parts of Cumbria was that when the definitive maps were created there was a little bit of 'straight lines joining two places are a lot less work than going out and surveying' that went on so that the original definitive map had a fair bit of fiction in place.

There is also the tale of the guy who navigated straight over the top of Aonach Mor crags in bad conditions because the ski tows were originally marked in the wrong place. But that's another story......

In reply to Touching Centauri: There a ROW marked on the flank of Elidir, heads up the valley from Nant no problem and then follows a gully bed, OKish going up, but not coming down. I followed it once out of interest.

In reply to IainRUK: I've heard it's sketchy but never followed it. I discovered the spur between Elidir Fawr and Y Garn is much kinder on the legs!

In reply to Touching Centauri: No, later than the main path up Elidir, almost near Mynydd Perfedd. It hits the ridge at the blwch between Elidir and Mynydd Perfedd. the main path up the flank is OK, quite worn now.

In reply to Touching Centauri:
'A green RoW is never an indication of a path on the ground! And vice versa.'
Absolutely!

'Rights of way are historical, and over the years the actualy course of the path might alter to something more pleasant on the legs.'
No. The r-o-w lines shown in substantial chunks of the Lakes were never, ever paths - people do not walk in straight lines in the hills as they have always wanted to travel efficiently and anyway they, the r-o-w's go straight over some silly bits of ground. (NY 271029; NY226048) Whilst the overall route may well have been a right of way the original definitive mapping left a lot to be desired as the r-o-w was not shown where people actually went.

'But the green RoW never changes (unless someone objects to one on their land and appeals to have it changed, etc).'
Absolutely.

In reply to Andy Say:
well on a scale which just includes Welsh slate quarries, Tremadog, Crib Goch, and the Cuillin, he's probably right

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Touche.

In reply to Andy Say:

Agreed, hwever, I think the OS would be better to give far less prominence to ROWs, (how about faint yellow dots or something far less obvious than the current huge green dots?). Also they tend to make non-existent features such as NP boundaries, NT boundaries, parish boundaries far more prominent than actual georaphic features (to the point where 100m wide swathes of the map are obscured by purple lines and other symbols).
The BMC/Harveys map is good in that it has ROWs visible on the ground marked differntly to invisible ones.

In reply to IainRUK:

Yes, sorry I knew which one you were on about, just didn't word it well. The direct one to the summit is a killer, but I was always told the one along the cwm was hard to follow and fairly damp!

In reply to Ridge:

Yes, there are a lot of ill-informed people who believe that a green RoW always indicates a path. Generally they learnt the hard way that this isn't so!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

get the barring right and you pass close enough to the first to see it make your turn and get the second one to confirm you are on the right path. Not essential but a very good confirmation.

In reply to Cardi:

No that would just increase the confusion as when you reach the bwch and are looking for a path going right you would see the crib goch path first and asume it was the one you are looking for. Even easier to assume that they are two branches of the same path.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Journalist license Simon! I'm sure you grasped the point I was trying to make, the letter isn't written for a UKC audience. Interesting thread folks

Mike Raine

BBC Cymbru, hang on BCC Cbry no hang on I've got it BMC Cymru (or CMP for the welsh out there!)

In reply to Veronica:

?

Who is it written for?

And what is a UKC audience?.......there were 12,000 in the UK audience last Monday, 5,600 at the news page alone also last Monday.

In reply to Veronica:

Yes, you were making a mountain out of a molehill.

In reply to KeithW:
most of the time as i and my girlfriend climb on our own, climbing and walk
is better with less company more are a hindrance
Do you walk on your own?

In reply to Norrie Muir:
yeah funny ha ha

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:


Who are these 'serious' people and which surveys do you refer to? My experience is that most people educated in mountain issues know the potential advantages of intelligently deployed signage. They can reduce environmental impact in many ways while improving safety and reducing the burden on national park workers and mountain rescue teams. The opposing argument seems to hinge on some people's far-fetched fantasy of a 'wild mountain experience' and a disdain for improved access on elitist grounds.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Aaargh! No offence meant! The letter was for Snowdonia National Park to support them oppose factions within the Mountainsafe group who would like warning signs to be put up on the hill in the same way signposts are erected at dangerous bits of road.Thats all.

UKC is wonderful and everyone who posts here is passionate and caring, I love it, just as much as you

In reply to Witkacy: My experience is that most people educated in mountain issues know the potential advantages of intelligently deployed signage.

most people educated in mountain issues use map and compass! not signs

In reply to Witkacy:

Is that another way of saying "most people who agree with me"?

In reply to Witkacy:
Its not a matter of right and wrong; its a matter of philosophy. The signage in Tatranský Národný Park, for example, is an extension of a philosphy of care for the environment as a natural 'resource' through control of activities. The use of signs fits within that philosophy.

In the UK there has always been a philosophy of retention of the land in 'primitive state' (though by no means the only philosophy it has to be said - as this thread demonstrates the debate between those who would seek to sanitise and those who wish for no 'development' is ongoing) exemplified by the 'Unna Guidelines' developed by Percy Unna and others at the formation of the National Trust for Scotland. This does depend upon responsible use!

My take on it is that education in responsible use is key, a sign on its own does nothing; but then education has always been the means through which particular philosophies are inculcated hasn't it?

In reply to Andy Say:

I agree there are different valid approaches, and no-one wants too many signs. There are problems with unmarked paths though. For example unmarked junctions tend to develop a big spider-web of mini-paths around them which turns into a hideous eroded mess. Warning signs are often effective too – usually hikers encountering an avalanche warning sign turn around. A warning sign at the start of paths with high fall rates wouldn’t bother me – though it seems it would be a shattering interruption into the ‘wilderness experience’ of some earnest types.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

I've read about 50% of this thread, but:

Please, no signs on any of our hills. Even the one at Bwlch y Moch is one too many.

However, perhaps one at Pen y Pass saying "N accidents and N fatalities on Crib Goch ridge in the last three years" might alert some to the ridge's dangers.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

I can't see a problem in discreet signs at main path junctions on the honeypots of Snowdon. In truth, how many do you need ? one where the Pyg track leaves the railway, one where the miners splits, one where the ascent of Crib Goch starts (suitable for experienced walkers only). Its not like they need to be visible from miles away.

In reply to GrahamD:

I disagree - If you signpost Crib Goch with that on loads of people will follow it. Just put a big neon sign saying 'SNOWDON SUMMIT THIS WAY' and don't mention Crib Goch at all. That way any casual walkers will just carry on up the pyg track without having to engage their brain - which should keep them out of trouble.

In reply to Solaris:
I like this one. http://www.wpclipart.com/imgpage.html?http://www.wpclipart.com/cartoon/_fal...

Nearly appropriate at Bwlch y Moch; couldn't find one of a pig.

In reply to aln:

I've seen 30ft transmitter posts in a lot of places on the hills in the UK. I've seen even taller wind mills all over the hillsides. I've seen big crosses on top of mountains. I've seen a hugh panel full of satellite dishes on Jungfach in Switzerland before. I've seen 15ft neatly constructed piles of cairns in the Southern Uplands in Scotland. I've seen cattle fence of 4ft tall along the most way up Meggie. 7ft tall shiny posts on the Ben weren't the first. See. You haven't been around for long really. Or you just walk on by in oblivion when you get out on the hills? Do you not notice these things? Or you just daydream when you're out on the hills?

In reply to Solaris:

Unless N turned out to be a very small number...

In reply to Andy Say:

Nice. How about one of a falling walker (in high heels) where the Pyg track traverses under Crib Goch?

In reply to Solaris:

I hope the image of the walker isn't called Veronica, otherwise people might get the wrong impression.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

What another wonderful politically correct idiocy? Who will maintain them and to what standards - just think of all the inspection and maintenance jobs coming along!

Seriously - signs lead those who have no common-sense or a a sense of self-preservation to go to places they shouldn't. Just imagine it, a drop of over 6 feet (WAH?) and they fall off. Because - 'it must be safe there isn't a sign'. Next - 'who can I sue for compensation?'.

Absolutely not.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
As people have pointed out, there is a sign at Bwlch Moch already, but it's not helpful, in fact arguably it's potentially dangerous, as it actually points the way up Crib Goch. Which means that some of the thousands of tourists who go up there assume, in the absense of any other information (or map and the ability to interpret it) that this must be the way up 'Snowdon'. This was exactly what was happening last time I passed that way - some people were dithering wondering whether that was the way to go, so I pointed them along the PYG track. If this discreet sign pointed the continuing way along the PYG track, instead of to Crib Goch, there would be much less likelihood of people ending up on Crib Goch by mistake. There is no use in putting 'signs on Crib Goch' if this was ever what was actually meant. Bwlch Moch is probably the only place in Snowdonia where there is a strong argument for a discreet sign on the hill itself - but one pointing along the PYG track, not one pointing to Crib Goch.

In reply to Calder:

That does seem to be the most sensible approach, although probably not a neon sign . Casual walkers who don't have a map, or don'r know how to use it just need pointing at the 'safest' path to their most likely destination.

Why don't we just put in turnstiles at the bottom and have someone check to see if we all have insurance and the right gear in our rucksacks!

In reply to Moise: good idea and then we could sell them all the stuff they need but don't have

In reply to dave jackson: The simple solution would be to get rid of the car park and the bus, if you wanted to climb SNowdon you could bloody well walk from the valle.

The same goes for the cromlech boulders too, let's get rid of the parking there and ban the motorbikes while we're at it.

Dogs obviously should not be allows into the hills (unless SARDA).

In reply to Nick Cole:
well said we need more people with views like yours

In reply to Nick Cole:


They seem to manage with them in the Alps on the popular trails without any problem. FFS, Snowdon via the Pyg track is a motorway already - no harm in keeping people on it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

If the signs go up, Welsh (language) first please.

Wow - what a lot of opinion. Heres mine.

Cairns - no probs with Cairns. Quite useful sometimes. And I suspect that they do play their role in preventing paths turning into motorways. If you don't like them, ignore them. If you really detest them and like things to look a little more "untouched" then you probably wouldn't be in snowdonia, the peak, or the lakes anyway. Have you got nothing better to moan about.

Signs?! Cripes. Is it really that difficult to assess a given situation.... I'm on a mountain, its cold wet and windy and the knife edged ridge in front of me drops off 200 metres either side. If you can't tell that that is a potentially dangerous situation, well...... If you really think it will help (as perhaps the approach to Crib Goch is fairly innocuous), stick a sign up in 27 languages at the bottom of Crib Goch. Perhaps it could say. "Go home, try not to go out too much in case you have an accident and take care when crossing the road if you absolutely have to." F*cks sake. Perhaps whichever council or commitee decided that a sign might be needed should take a good look at itself. And perhaps if it comes down to the fact that the national parks are experiencing massive over-use and attracting "the wrong" type of person, maybe someone else on the commitee should suggest a review of the way in which the outdoors in general is advertised.

On the subject of Chavs. I quite frequently enjoy steaming into the hills in my jeans and approach shoes, leaping from rock to rock to get round slow over equipped non-chavs who have been heard to say "Oh Norman, look at this kid. He's headed for an accident. Perhaps we should use our GPS to make a note of the grid ref of his last sighting incase he doesn't make it down tonight. Now where is it....? I know its in one of my 17 pockets on this 3 ply goretex jacket that I could actually use to climb in the alps in winter. Oh, perhaps I left it in my 57 plate passatt at the bottom of the hill. Shit - what are we going to do Norman. i can't actually use a map and compass." Now this isn't to say that I head out completely unequipped, just that perhaps you shouldn't judge a book by its cover and maybe experience is more important than a persons footwear.
Furthermore, chavs can use the hills if they like just as middle-aged goretex wearing passat drivers are free to go graffitti the walls of small towns in North Wales if they please.

Hehe.

In reply to Donald M:

Everything is bilingual here, need have no concerns about that.

In reply to Donald M:

what, something like this:

CRIB GOCH
KNIFE EDGE

??

In reply to Nick Cole: it seems fairly obvious to me. Minimal signs on "tourist" paths such as the PyG = OK. Signs on "fellwalker" paths such as Crib Goch = counter-productive; unnecessary for those who would have little trouble with the ascent, with a chance of luring the unwary to their doom.