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Apologies for the repetition of this report from another thread, but I think it would be good to emphasise just how rough it is in the Cairngorms right now.
*************
Well folks, that was quite a day. The route was fine. (In the end Henning led me up The Seam-- not our original plan, but it was blowing and spindrifting a lot, so we thought we'd better not push our luck on anything harder.) The top pitch of The Seam is a wonderful place to be, even in the fierce conditions we were there in.
We didn't leave the car park till 1030 because that was when they opened the skiing road. Apparently the funicular railway was having trouble. (And why should climbers be blocked out because there's a skiing-related problem?? Grrr.) So although we climbed fast, we didn't finish till quite late. And then the walkout was unbelievable-- way harder than the climb. It was blowing a real hoolie by 430 and there was so much snow in the air that at times you literally couldn't see your own feet. There were chest-deep drifts to flounder in, and every time you got on top of a boulder to hop around the drifts, the wind blew you off-- back into the drifts. I've had a succession of late nights recently (long story) and my motor skills were very poor for dealing with this, so I fell a lot. (Curiously, my motor skills were fine on the climb itself.) We had to get out by dead reckoning, ten yards at a time, and in the end we roped up. Before we went I joked to Henning that he might have to winch me up the climb... turned out he needed to winch me down!
Moral of the story: If anyone's thinking of heading up to the Gorms today or tomorrow, I can only advise them to be REALLY CAREFUL. The weather and the under-foot conditions are absolutely savage right now. If you've never been in weather like that, you will simply have no idea just how bad it can get, even in a supposedly innocuous spot like the Sneachda path.
*************
Well folks, that was quite a day. The route was fine. (In the end Henning led me up The Seam-- not our original plan, but it was blowing and spindrifting a lot, so we thought we'd better not push our luck on anything harder.) The top pitch of The Seam is a wonderful place to be, even in the fierce conditions we were there in.
We didn't leave the car park till 1030 because that was when they opened the skiing road. Apparently the funicular railway was having trouble. (And why should climbers be blocked out because there's a skiing-related problem?? Grrr.) So although we climbed fast, we didn't finish till quite late. And then the walkout was unbelievable-- way harder than the climb. It was blowing a real hoolie by 430 and there was so much snow in the air that at times you literally couldn't see your own feet. There were chest-deep drifts to flounder in, and every time you got on top of a boulder to hop around the drifts, the wind blew you off-- back into the drifts. I've had a succession of late nights recently (long story) and my motor skills were very poor for dealing with this, so I fell a lot. (Curiously, my motor skills were fine on the climb itself.) We had to get out by dead reckoning, ten yards at a time, and in the end we roped up. Before we went I joked to Henning that he might have to winch me up the climb... turned out he needed to winch me down!
Moral of the story: If anyone's thinking of heading up to the Gorms today or tomorrow, I can only advise them to be REALLY CAREFUL. The weather and the under-foot conditions are absolutely savage right now. If you've never been in weather like that, you will simply have no idea just how bad it can get, even in a supposedly innocuous spot like the Sneachda path.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Ten four this this, i was there on Wednesday, and it was pretty bad. First time i've ever experienced a real bad winter epic. I couldn't see my arm when it was fully extended.
This was in Coire An Lochain, near Astroturfer.
In the end we made a break for it, it was horrific.
Take care out there.
Ten four this this, i was there on Wednesday, and it was pretty bad. First time i've ever experienced a real bad winter epic. I couldn't see my arm when it was fully extended.
This was in Coire An Lochain, near Astroturfer.
In the end we made a break for it, it was horrific.
Take care out there.
In reply to ro8x:
Yeah, I tried to get Henning to back off at one point on the approach when the wind and spindrift was particularly awful.
Naturally, he disagreed-- and he was right. Just about.
Yeah, I tried to get Henning to back off at one point on the approach when the wind and spindrift was particularly awful.
Naturally, he disagreed-- and he was right. Just about.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I had the same problem, we had someone who has done 2 leads on the grit with us and never done winter climbing, nor was he particularly confident. My friend however was up for taking him up some VI 6. What a tart, just as well we backed off!
I had the same problem, we had someone who has done 2 leads on the grit with us and never done winter climbing, nor was he particularly confident. My friend however was up for taking him up some VI 6. What a tart, just as well we backed off!
In reply to ro8x: wednesday wasn't even that bad! It was just semi-bad in the corries. I was taking a friend up her 1st winter route, it was good being out on the plateau afterwards, the spindrift was stinging.
In reply to MattG:
Your balls must be MASSSIVE.haha!
good on you for getting something done, personally i wasn't digging it!
Your balls must be MASSSIVE.haha!
good on you for getting something done, personally i wasn't digging it!
In reply to MattG: yesterday was well rough though, I went sledging instead
In reply to ro8x: sorry, wasnt meaning to come across like that at all, I certainly cant climb VI even in good weather, and also lochain was probably worse than the other one coz it is higher.
In reply to MattG:
Ah no worries mate, i get cold dead easy like. Lochain probably was worse.
Still, i learnt some valuable lessons.
Ah no worries mate, i get cold dead easy like. Lochain probably was worse.
Still, i learnt some valuable lessons.
In reply to ro8x: cool, there should be lots of snow this week, its shaping up like a proper january, lots of snow and wind
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Partner and I climbed Green Gully yesterday on the Ben, started out Ok, lots of swirling clouds, dense fog and powder snow. First pitch up steep ice was magic apart from tonnes of spindrift sliding off and into my face then freezing on me. Couldn't see my feet placements at all, kept going and topped out into a full scale Blizzard. Gusts blowing us over and fortunately into No. 4 gully, which was like being inside a vacuum cleaner while being spanked in the face by several kippers! Got down to Garadh na Ciste and it was dark, no visible tracks or path, we scouted around for a stashed rope (if anyone finds a blue 50m half under a rock it's ours!) then slid, blew and generally fell down to the hut, which resembled only a roof peeking out above very deep snow. The path took us 2+ hours to do, kept losing the path, falling into river etc, there was a m.rescue team out scouting the other side of the burn, where the path falls from the Loch, hope those guys were ok? Truly epic day, and loved every minute!
Partner and I climbed Green Gully yesterday on the Ben, started out Ok, lots of swirling clouds, dense fog and powder snow. First pitch up steep ice was magic apart from tonnes of spindrift sliding off and into my face then freezing on me. Couldn't see my feet placements at all, kept going and topped out into a full scale Blizzard. Gusts blowing us over and fortunately into No. 4 gully, which was like being inside a vacuum cleaner while being spanked in the face by several kippers! Got down to Garadh na Ciste and it was dark, no visible tracks or path, we scouted around for a stashed rope (if anyone finds a blue 50m half under a rock it's ours!) then slid, blew and generally fell down to the hut, which resembled only a roof peeking out above very deep snow. The path took us 2+ hours to do, kept losing the path, falling into river etc, there was a m.rescue team out scouting the other side of the burn, where the path falls from the Loch, hope those guys were ok? Truly epic day, and loved every minute!
In reply to MattG:
Hey Matt, were you involved in the ski-gate-queue snowball fight yesterday morning? I was the guy with glasses in the red jacket who kept walking up and down the queue (to talk to my partner, who was in a different car at the front of it).
Hey Matt, were you involved in the ski-gate-queue snowball fight yesterday morning? I was the guy with glasses in the red jacket who kept walking up and down the queue (to talk to my partner, who was in a different car at the front of it).
In reply to simon_D:
Thanks for the tip about the crag swag-- my teams will be out to appropriate your 50m blue ASAP
Mind you, if it goes on like this it might be April before it's visible again
Thanks for the tip about the crag swag-- my teams will be out to appropriate your 50m blue ASAP
Mind you, if it goes on like this it might be April before it's visible again
In reply to Tim Chappell: yeah, I think my mate hit you on the nose and then you chased his car, was that right? Good patience on getting the route in, I went sledging off the A9 instead
In reply to MattG:
That's the one :-0
> (In reply to Tim Chappell) yeah, I think my mate hit you on the nose and then you chased his car, was that right? Good patience on getting the route in, I went sledging off the A9 instead
That's the one :-0
In reply to Tim Chappell: good to chuck snow at you anyway, it was Jamie who got you
In reply to Tim Chappell: Sounds nice up there today too
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7172032.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7172032.stm
In reply to Tim Chappell:
In the past pretty average weather conditions for the time of year and believe me it can get a lot worse.
When I did my winter ML assessment expedition in the early nineties we had 80 to 120 mph winds.
On the plateau the assessors rucksack blew away and we lost communication with the lodge. If we hadn't had goggles and at least three spare maps and compasses (they got either blown away and or smashed...) and if we hadn't managed to navigated back to our snowhole on our frozen hands and knees I wouldn't be typing this now...
When we did get back off the hill a day or so later nobody could pick us up as the roads were blocked and our cars buried.
Winds in excess of 100mph with driving snow and ice are normal winter conditions in the Cairngorms. That's why many guides and instructors prefer good experienced winter hill walkers on their winter courses as opposed to good climbers. So take care
In the past pretty average weather conditions for the time of year and believe me it can get a lot worse.
When I did my winter ML assessment expedition in the early nineties we had 80 to 120 mph winds.
On the plateau the assessors rucksack blew away and we lost communication with the lodge. If we hadn't had goggles and at least three spare maps and compasses (they got either blown away and or smashed...) and if we hadn't managed to navigated back to our snowhole on our frozen hands and knees I wouldn't be typing this now...
When we did get back off the hill a day or so later nobody could pick us up as the roads were blocked and our cars buried.
Winds in excess of 100mph with driving snow and ice are normal winter conditions in the Cairngorms. That's why many guides and instructors prefer good experienced winter hill walkers on their winter courses as opposed to good climbers. So take care
In reply to Tim Chappell: Tim, thank you for putting the Helvellyn avalanche warning into real perspective!
In reply to drunken monkey: 50mph winds don't sound too excessive.
In reply to simon_D:
there was a m.rescue team out scouting the other side of the burn, where the path falls from the Loch, hope those guys were ok? Truly epic day, and loved every minute!
Think that was this incident?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7172537.stm
there was a m.rescue team out scouting the other side of the burn, where the path falls from the Loch, hope those guys were ok? Truly epic day, and loved every minute!
Think that was this incident?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7172537.stm
In reply to Tim Chappell: #
Been there done that. Very careful about choice of destination and decisions whether to go out at all when the wind is blowing above 50 mph now a days....
Been there done that. Very careful about choice of destination and decisions whether to go out at all when the wind is blowing above 50 mph now a days....
In reply to wcdave: Sounds like a summer day!
In reply to CurlyStevo: It can be ok with careful choice and planning and with everyone being mentally and physically prepared for it. I remember being blown roped together across the cairngorm plateau some time in 1997
In reply to wcdave:
http://www.phy.hw.ac.uk/resrev/aws/awsgraph.htm
ahem more like gusting to 70mph, I've heard above 80 you are forced to crawl
> (In reply to drunken monkey) 50mph winds don't sound too excessive.
http://www.phy.hw.ac.uk/resrev/aws/awsgraph.htm
ahem more like gusting to 70mph, I've heard above 80 you are forced to crawl
In reply to drunken monkey:
Quote from the BBC website "A final convoy of cars was preparing to drive down from the car park below the mountain where winds speeds have reached more than 50mph"
Sounds more dramatic than it was or was it 150 mph winds!
Now when all the cars in the Coire Cas carpark get their windows blown in as used to happen a lot and you have belay your climbing partners as they are lifted up the climb then that's when it starts to get wild...!
Quote from the BBC website "A final convoy of cars was preparing to drive down from the car park below the mountain where winds speeds have reached more than 50mph"
Sounds more dramatic than it was or was it 150 mph winds!
Now when all the cars in the Coire Cas carpark get their windows blown in as used to happen a lot and you have belay your climbing partners as they are lifted up the climb then that's when it starts to get wild...!
In reply to MattG:
Like I said been there, we were out in winds in excess of 60 mph a year and a half ago. was blown over a few times. Couldn't get off the plateau for ages as there was a mega white out and everything was avalanche prone (one went down a gully very close to us). When I stuck my head on to the plateau an half an inch of ice immediately formed on my balaclava. Too much of a survival situation for me to deliberately do that again.
Like I said been there, we were out in winds in excess of 60 mph a year and a half ago. was blown over a few times. Couldn't get off the plateau for ages as there was a mega white out and everything was avalanche prone (one went down a gully very close to us). When I stuck my head on to the plateau an half an inch of ice immediately formed on my balaclava. Too much of a survival situation for me to deliberately do that again.
In reply to Ron Walker: Are they struggling to keep the road open? Sounds like a more likely reason.
In reply to CurlyStevo: Indeed, there comes a point where doing it deliberately is silly!
In reply to drunken monkey:
Yes you are right. The southerly winds drift the snow across the link road and nowadays with few younger drivers being able to cope with winter conditions they now close the road at the earliest opportunity.
The biggest problem is idiots in flash 4 wheel drive cars with slick low pofile tyres getting stuck or losing control.
It was funny yesterday as we drove off into a side carpark through the deep snow to park (the car has winter tyres!) A few flashy 4 wheel drives followed revving their engines and spinning their wheels only to get stuck
Yes you are right. The southerly winds drift the snow across the link road and nowadays with few younger drivers being able to cope with winter conditions they now close the road at the earliest opportunity.
The biggest problem is idiots in flash 4 wheel drive cars with slick low pofile tyres getting stuck or losing control.
It was funny yesterday as we drove off into a side carpark through the deep snow to park (the car has winter tyres!) A few flashy 4 wheel drives followed revving their engines and spinning their wheels only to get stuck
In reply to Ron Walker: Lol - I wouldnt fancy going off road to the left hand side (Chalamain Gap way) - Its a fair old drop intop the burn!
In reply to Toby S:
jeez...can't believe folk go up the Ben in those conditions just to bag the summit? Must have been 3 x land rovers, 2 teams and a chopper out, I could hear the chopper on the final pitch and thought, at the time, it was the wind! Makes you think about knowing the descent route from No. 4 to the hut like the back of your hand is soooo useful.
jeez...can't believe folk go up the Ben in those conditions just to bag the summit? Must have been 3 x land rovers, 2 teams and a chopper out, I could hear the chopper on the final pitch and thought, at the time, it was the wind! Makes you think about knowing the descent route from No. 4 to the hut like the back of your hand is soooo useful.
In reply to Ron Walker:
They will be able to big up their epic and tell great tales of how they battled through wild conditions. The only problem is that these types also go on the hill and also retell their daring do epics on the hill.
> (In reply to drunken monkey)
>
> It was funny yesterday as we drove off into a side carpark through the deep snow to park (the car has winter tyres!) A few flashy 4 wheel drives followed revving their engines and spinning their wheels only to get stuck
>
> It was funny yesterday as we drove off into a side carpark through the deep snow to park (the car has winter tyres!) A few flashy 4 wheel drives followed revving their engines and spinning their wheels only to get stuck
They will be able to big up their epic and tell great tales of how they battled through wild conditions. The only problem is that these types also go on the hill and also retell their daring do epics on the hill.
In reply to Tim Chappell: Aye me and 2 mates were out in Lochian yesterday and as tim said nasty conditions. We were originally heading for milky way/astroturfer, but got nailed by a sluf avalanche from the vent so headed to safer ground and Fiacaill Ridge.
The ridge was nice and it was just starting to get really blowy as we came down. This made the walk out pretty arduous, one minute getting flattened by the wind and the next swimming thro chest deep powder. Took about 2hours to get down only to find the ski area shut, bit of a bummer as we were planning to catch the bus down. We managed to get a lift with some very nice climbers who were staying at Nethy, some of whom were out for their first time in Scotland. Hope it hasn't put you of and thanks guys!
Looks like the snow and storms will continue all this coming week so be careful out there.
Andy
The ridge was nice and it was just starting to get really blowy as we came down. This made the walk out pretty arduous, one minute getting flattened by the wind and the next swimming thro chest deep powder. Took about 2hours to get down only to find the ski area shut, bit of a bummer as we were planning to catch the bus down. We managed to get a lift with some very nice climbers who were staying at Nethy, some of whom were out for their first time in Scotland. Hope it hasn't put you of and thanks guys!
Looks like the snow and storms will continue all this coming week so be careful out there.
Andy
In reply to Ron Walker:
Hi Ron,
Good comments.
Another key factor is aerobic fitness. In conditions like the ones yesterday or worse aerobic fitness saves your life.
First if you are fit you can keep going even if you fall into deep snow again and again as happened yesterday (the Southerly was blowing the snow into the Corrie and it was waist deep in place). And if you keep on going then you maintain your body temperature.
The second point is that aerobically trained climbers use more fat and less glycogen (they also have more glycogen storedas than untrained subjects). Thus you don't run out of glycogen and your blood sugar does not go low which is the point where you hit the wall and are in deep trouble.
The conclusion is to do lots of hillwalking or running before climbing in winter in less than perfect conditions.
Henning
Hi Ron,
Good comments.
Another key factor is aerobic fitness. In conditions like the ones yesterday or worse aerobic fitness saves your life.
First if you are fit you can keep going even if you fall into deep snow again and again as happened yesterday (the Southerly was blowing the snow into the Corrie and it was waist deep in place). And if you keep on going then you maintain your body temperature.
The second point is that aerobically trained climbers use more fat and less glycogen (they also have more glycogen storedas than untrained subjects). Thus you don't run out of glycogen and your blood sugar does not go low which is the point where you hit the wall and are in deep trouble.
The conclusion is to do lots of hillwalking or running before climbing in winter in less than perfect conditions.
Henning
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I was also in Sneachda yesterday. It must have been you we saw heading towards Fiacaill Buttress round about the same time we reached the coire. I was quite surprised to see anyone heading up to climb. Well done getting the route done and getting back safely. We also saw a team heading up towards Alladin's Buttress. We decided the weather was too bad so headed out. As we reached the end of the boulders it was like someone suddenly flicked the turbo switch on. The conditions, as you say, were horrendous. Fortunatly for us we bumped into a guided party, so followed them out. Then joined the crazy queue out of the car park. We chose to stay off the hill today and headed home instead. I've got some photo's a bit of video footage which I might post later when I get chance.
I was also in Sneachda yesterday. It must have been you we saw heading towards Fiacaill Buttress round about the same time we reached the coire. I was quite surprised to see anyone heading up to climb. Well done getting the route done and getting back safely. We also saw a team heading up towards Alladin's Buttress. We decided the weather was too bad so headed out. As we reached the end of the boulders it was like someone suddenly flicked the turbo switch on. The conditions, as you say, were horrendous. Fortunatly for us we bumped into a guided party, so followed them out. Then joined the crazy queue out of the car park. We chose to stay off the hill today and headed home instead. I've got some photo's a bit of video footage which I might post later when I get chance.
In reply to Tim Chappell: It was bad enough on top of Ben Vrackie yesterday, so I'm glad we gave the bigger hills a miss
In reply to JonY:
Thanks for your comments but we felt it was just about OK to attempt a shortish climb below our leading level in the time available and the conditions. Tim and I have done a lot of Scottish hillwalking (see Ron Walker's comments) and winter climbing before and have experience at night and we have both experienced worse winds/conditions than yesterday (the type where you can't stay on your feet). The avalanche danger seemed relatively low and so we felt that it was justifiable to climb a shortish route like the seam.
The main problem was the deep snow on the way back due to the Southerly blowing the snow into the corrie and all the snowfall during the day as was said before. We finished the climb with some daylight left and then went into the corrie to be a bit more sheltered. However, it was still very windy and navigation was tricky because pacing is almost impossible in the boulder fields. So we went eastwards first through the awful boulder fields and then northwards out of the corrie. We roped up because visibility was awful and losing each other would be very serious.
We were close to our limit but not at it on the walk out. All the deep snow - especialy in-between boulders - was nasty and made the going tough. We needed an incredible 4.5 h for the walk out but after the big meal in the pub we were fine again.
Thanks for your comments but we felt it was just about OK to attempt a shortish climb below our leading level in the time available and the conditions. Tim and I have done a lot of Scottish hillwalking (see Ron Walker's comments) and winter climbing before and have experience at night and we have both experienced worse winds/conditions than yesterday (the type where you can't stay on your feet). The avalanche danger seemed relatively low and so we felt that it was justifiable to climb a shortish route like the seam.
The main problem was the deep snow on the way back due to the Southerly blowing the snow into the corrie and all the snowfall during the day as was said before. We finished the climb with some daylight left and then went into the corrie to be a bit more sheltered. However, it was still very windy and navigation was tricky because pacing is almost impossible in the boulder fields. So we went eastwards first through the awful boulder fields and then northwards out of the corrie. We roped up because visibility was awful and losing each other would be very serious.
We were close to our limit but not at it on the walk out. All the deep snow - especialy in-between boulders - was nasty and made the going tough. We needed an incredible 4.5 h for the walk out but after the big meal in the pub we were fine again.
In reply to hwackerhage and Tim: Sounds like a well deserved meal in the pub! I was reading out Tim's OP to Rb my daughter and she said to me, 'mum, I'm glad we didn't go out on the hill cos I would fall in with the snow over my head if it was chest deep on Tim, lol!'
In reply to hwackerhage:
It sure was wild up there yesterday! Husband and I had late start so by the time we got to the ski road it had just closed. As we were already geared up to go on the hill, we decided to park and walk up to Coire Cas on the Allt Mhor track. By the time we were only at about 600m, snow was thigh high, visibility down to about 2 m or less, spindrift and wind circling like banshees. With the best will in the world, ploughing through snow that deep was pointless, so we turned back. "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day" or something like that. Heavy rain last night, woke up this morning. looked out of window and the snow line has retreated much higher up the hill.
It sure was wild up there yesterday! Husband and I had late start so by the time we got to the ski road it had just closed. As we were already geared up to go on the hill, we decided to park and walk up to Coire Cas on the Allt Mhor track. By the time we were only at about 600m, snow was thigh high, visibility down to about 2 m or less, spindrift and wind circling like banshees. With the best will in the world, ploughing through snow that deep was pointless, so we turned back. "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day" or something like that. Heavy rain last night, woke up this morning. looked out of window and the snow line has retreated much higher up the hill.
In reply to hwackerhage: Good effort guys, just a reminder to everyone of how hard going conditions can be in the corries.
I have an updated photo for today on http://www.ecossemountains.co.uk/ecosse_002.htm
Dosnt look too inviting!
Cheers Kevin.
I have an updated photo for today on http://www.ecossemountains.co.uk/ecosse_002.htm
Dosnt look too inviting!
Cheers Kevin.
In reply to Ecosse Mountains:
Just got back from Culra Bothy. Cycle and walk in from Dalwhinnie was wild last night with full on navigation across to the bothy itself. Stormy conditions necessitated walking on bearings for a bit but we got there ok. Awoke to much milder conditions but still full winter and went up the Lancet edge and then walked + cycled out.
Definetly not worth taking skis or climbing gear to Ben Alder right not but I hear the Cumming-Crofton Route was done on Beinn a' Bhuird.
Just got back from Culra Bothy. Cycle and walk in from Dalwhinnie was wild last night with full on navigation across to the bothy itself. Stormy conditions necessitated walking on bearings for a bit but we got there ok. Awoke to much milder conditions but still full winter and went up the Lancet edge and then walked + cycled out.
Definetly not worth taking skis or climbing gear to Ben Alder right not but I hear the Cumming-Crofton Route was done on Beinn a' Bhuird.
In reply to hwackerhage:
Glad burning fat is useful!
BTW I'm originally a biologist by trade!!
But on a more serious note a lot of climber now use high energy supplements and stimulants and as you say they hit the wall very quickly. So when the shit hits the fan long big hill days navigating in crap conditions are more beneficial than short climbing wall sessions. You need good stamina and endurance as opposed to being able to climb 7a or whatever...
Try telling folk that these days though...
Take care
Ron
Glad burning fat is useful!
BTW I'm originally a biologist by trade!!
But on a more serious note a lot of climber now use high energy supplements and stimulants and as you say they hit the wall very quickly. So when the shit hits the fan long big hill days navigating in crap conditions are more beneficial than short climbing wall sessions. You need good stamina and endurance as opposed to being able to climb 7a or whatever...
Try telling folk that these days though...
Take care
Ron
In reply to Ron Walker: Wouldn't it be good to have brilliant stamina and endurance and be able to climb 7a though lol!
In reply to lasonj:
Yes, but it wouldn't help in getting up a grade one winter route though!
Hope you had a good New Year...
Ron
Yes, but it wouldn't help in getting up a grade one winter route though!
Hope you had a good New Year...
Ron
In reply to Tim Chappell and Matt G:
>I think my mate hit you on the nose and then you >chased his car, was that right? Good patience on getting the route in, I >went sledging off the A9 instead
Haha, yeah that was me what a good shot on the move!
The snowball fight debacle was really funny Tim, made me laugh out loud when you were chasing me, really put a smile on my face despite the ski road being closed!
Glad you got a good day in
>I think my mate hit you on the nose and then you >chased his car, was that right? Good patience on getting the route in, I >went sledging off the A9 instead
Haha, yeah that was me what a good shot on the move!
The snowball fight debacle was really funny Tim, made me laugh out loud when you were chasing me, really put a smile on my face despite the ski road being closed!
Glad you got a good day in
In reply to Ron Walker: But I meant, have the stamina and endurance for horrible walk ins AND good winter climbing AND the strength and technical proficiency and balls to climb hard in winter, rock and the wall. (mind you, that probably involves training like a machine!)(Sounds a bit like Henning actually, lol!)
Quiet and peacefull new year, preceded by travelling up your way and further and failing to climb anything, braw nonetheless though
You guys?
Quiet and peacefull new year, preceded by travelling up your way and further and failing to climb anything, braw nonetheless though
You guys?
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I've posted a report on thefrontpoint and some photos from Friday's storm. I've also got a bit of video just before it hit really bad which I'll try and upload tomorrow.
I've posted a report on thefrontpoint and some photos from Friday's storm. I've also got a bit of video just before it hit really bad which I'll try and upload tomorrow.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I have some video footage now.
http://www.thefrontpoint.com/reports.aspx?PageID=Latest
I have some video footage now.
http://www.thefrontpoint.com/reports.aspx?PageID=Latest
Thinking over Friday's experiences, I see two or three lessons I ought to learn:
1. Always, always take walking poles when there's deep snow. That walkout was hell, but poles would have helped a lot.
2. Contact lenses. I could have worn them, and didn't because I couldn't be bothered. They wouldn't have made that much difference, because the problem was not just that I was shorter-sighted than I would have been with them, and couldn't use my glasses because when I tried to they iced up instantly-- the problem was also that my eyelashes were filling up with icicles every 30 seconds... but lenses would have helped a little, and a little would have been a lot.
3. If the forecast wind is more than 50 mph, which it was IIRC, it's probably better not to go at all.
...Oh, and another one:
4. Henning and I should have roped up sooner, and with less rope between us (3m not 10).
In reply to Ron Walker:
Hi Ron,
I am an exercise physiologist at the University of Aberdeen. It is good to see that the theory works in practice.
Cheers,
Henning
Hi Ron,
I am an exercise physiologist at the University of Aberdeen. It is good to see that the theory works in practice.
Cheers,
Henning
In reply to hwackerhage:
...and he's got an engine on him like a bloody tank-- if you want to be pulled out of a snowdrift, Henning's your man
PS Thanks, HW!
> I am an exercise physiologist at the University of Aberdeen.
...and he's got an engine on him like a bloody tank-- if you want to be pulled out of a snowdrift, Henning's your man
PS Thanks, HW!
In reply to Tim Chappell:
think UKC have gone overboard with the NEWS: bit - it had been forcast for like a week. this is the cairgorms in it's default state.
think UKC have gone overboard with the NEWS: bit - it had been forcast for like a week. this is the cairgorms in it's default state.
In reply to Burnsie:
Not exactly. Forecast was 15-25mph, then 25-35mph with gusts upto 60mph.
I've been out numerous times with a forecast like that and been fine. The problem here was the gusts turned into a constant 60mph+ at least. There is a massive difference. But I know what you mean, this is not uncommon for the Cairngorms and can be much worse.
Not exactly. Forecast was 15-25mph, then 25-35mph with gusts upto 60mph.
I've been out numerous times with a forecast like that and been fine. The problem here was the gusts turned into a constant 60mph+ at least. There is a massive difference. But I know what you mean, this is not uncommon for the Cairngorms and can be much worse.
Bizarre, just got in from 2 good days of climbing and see that it was during a "massive storm".............
I think we got a bit lucky!
We left on friday to head up to Lachaber area to possibly head into the Grey Corries but we noticed that the snow gates were closed at perth so went the Glencoe way instead.
Pity they hadn't ploughed the road from perth to Lochearnhead though!
Took us nearly 3 hours to get to Glencoe so we just sacked it in and camped there for the night.
Got up the morning to pissing rain and hail but went for an alpine start to Stob Coire nan Lochain, with an hour of plodding through slush and rain before making it to the snow line.
The ideal route for the day seemed to be Scabbard Chimney with an abseil off after the main difficulties.
Fortunately, between the near constant spindrift pouring down, we managed to get some really nice climbing done with decent frozen turf and not too many loose blocks.
Drove to aviemore. Ate lots. Slept.
Got the carpark at about 7ish and left for Sneachta, when we got there there was 3 teams headed for the fiacaill area so we decided to stay on aladins and went for Gemini. Bit chilly in the wind, but on the whole a prety decent day. The route could probably have done with a bit more consolidated snow but it wasn't too bad, we didn't top out but just went down the big gully to the left which was reasonably well bonded snow, but still a bit worrying avalanche wise!
Other than the wind, best weekend so far this year!
I think we got a bit lucky!
We left on friday to head up to Lachaber area to possibly head into the Grey Corries but we noticed that the snow gates were closed at perth so went the Glencoe way instead.
Pity they hadn't ploughed the road from perth to Lochearnhead though!
Took us nearly 3 hours to get to Glencoe so we just sacked it in and camped there for the night.
Got up the morning to pissing rain and hail but went for an alpine start to Stob Coire nan Lochain, with an hour of plodding through slush and rain before making it to the snow line.
The ideal route for the day seemed to be Scabbard Chimney with an abseil off after the main difficulties.
Fortunately, between the near constant spindrift pouring down, we managed to get some really nice climbing done with decent frozen turf and not too many loose blocks.
Drove to aviemore. Ate lots. Slept.
Got the carpark at about 7ish and left for Sneachta, when we got there there was 3 teams headed for the fiacaill area so we decided to stay on aladins and went for Gemini. Bit chilly in the wind, but on the whole a prety decent day. The route could probably have done with a bit more consolidated snow but it wasn't too bad, we didn't top out but just went down the big gully to the left which was reasonably well bonded snow, but still a bit worrying avalanche wise!
Other than the wind, best weekend so far this year!
In reply to JonY: Just seen your video.........bloody hell, glad we got stuck in Glencoe!
Just noticed, I meant the Genie, not Gemini!
Just noticed, I meant the Genie, not Gemini!
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Thing is that was actually before it happened. It was like someone suddenly flicked a switch and the gusts stopped being gusts and became constant. Wish I actually took the time to video it but I was more concerned with getting out. Did take the odd photo though which you've probably seen. It was strangely scary and exciting at the same time.
Thing is that was actually before it happened. It was like someone suddenly flicked a switch and the gusts stopped being gusts and became constant. Wish I actually took the time to video it but I was more concerned with getting out. Did take the odd photo though which you've probably seen. It was strangely scary and exciting at the same time.
In reply to Donald M:
God effort if the Cumming-Crofton route was done - was on Carn A' Mhaim on Sat and it was rather blustery with freezing level above the 1,000m line - and was milder on Sunday
> (In reply to Ecosse Mountains)
>
> Definetly not worth taking skis or climbing gear to Ben Alder right not but I hear the Cumming-Crofton Route was done on Beinn a' Bhuird.
>
> Definetly not worth taking skis or climbing gear to Ben Alder right not but I hear the Cumming-Crofton Route was done on Beinn a' Bhuird.
God effort if the Cumming-Crofton route was done - was on Carn A' Mhaim on Sat and it was rather blustery with freezing level above the 1,000m line - and was milder on Sunday
In reply to Tim Chappell: So you were the mad ba..... heading up to that route...fair play t'yez!!
We were up there on Friday, report here; http://www.thefrontpoint.com/reports.aspx?PageID=Latest
I just hoped like hell that everyone got off ok that day coz it was pretty damn rough out there!
Weird thing was that back down in Aviemore it seemed like another planet as was mild as hell!!
We were up there on Friday, report here; http://www.thefrontpoint.com/reports.aspx?PageID=Latest
I just hoped like hell that everyone got off ok that day coz it was pretty damn rough out there!
Weird thing was that back down in Aviemore it seemed like another planet as was mild as hell!!
In reply to davidlloydhudson:
Yeah, that was us heading for Fiacaill. Getting back to the car park afterwards was quite funny-- the place was totally deserted apart from a buried 4 x 4 and our own two cars, also buried. We didn't realise we were behind a full-on evacuation of the mountain till we read your report :-0
Yeah, that was us heading for Fiacaill. Getting back to the car park afterwards was quite funny-- the place was totally deserted apart from a buried 4 x 4 and our own two cars, also buried. We didn't realise we were behind a full-on evacuation of the mountain till we read your report :-0
In reply to Burnsie:
Still don't think this is news worthy - Anyone that this is an unusual occurrence shouldn't be in the cairngorms full stop. (the largest area of arctic mountain landscape in the UK)
Still don't think this is news worthy - Anyone that this is an unusual occurrence shouldn't be in the cairngorms full stop. (the largest area of arctic mountain landscape in the UK)
In reply to Burnsie: Exactly, fairly normal day out.The bad days are the ones when its impossible to start climbing.
In reply to Burnsie: Agree. As I said further up, 50mph winds are quite normal for the Cairngorms.
In reply to Burnsie:
Both this and Andy's Avalanche ( http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=278910 ) experience are quite rightly featured on the news page at UKClimbing.com so that they get maximum exposure.
Not only to give an indication of current conditions which many are interested in but also to highlight a lesson learned. The video also gives an indication, to those not in the know, how ferocious it can get up there - thanks frontpoint.com.
Never presume that everyone is on the same page or has the same level of experience. One of the strengths of this media that we can get the message and information out quickly and to many.
Mick
> (In reply to Burnsie)
>
> Still don't think this is news worthy -
>
> Still don't think this is news worthy -
Both this and Andy's Avalanche ( http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=278910 ) experience are quite rightly featured on the news page at UKClimbing.com so that they get maximum exposure.
Not only to give an indication of current conditions which many are interested in but also to highlight a lesson learned. The video also gives an indication, to those not in the know, how ferocious it can get up there - thanks frontpoint.com.
Never presume that everyone is on the same page or has the same level of experience. One of the strengths of this media that we can get the message and information out quickly and to many.
Mick
In reply to Burnsie:
I don't think anyone has commented that this was an unusual occurrence. I do think 'news' maybe overstating it a bit though as this sort of weather is fairly common. Reporting what we experience whilst out on the day is fair enough though I think. Also, I think everyone has a different opinon on where to draw the line regarding weather conditions. If there are any doubts then head back. It was a fine line and we had doubts as things were getting worse, so headed back. Glad we did.
> (In reply to Burnsie)
>
> Still don't think this is news worthy - Anyone that this is an unusual occurrence shouldn't be in the cairngorms full stop. (the largest area of arctic mountain landscape in the UK)
>
> Still don't think this is news worthy - Anyone that this is an unusual occurrence shouldn't be in the cairngorms full stop. (the largest area of arctic mountain landscape in the UK)
I don't think anyone has commented that this was an unusual occurrence. I do think 'news' maybe overstating it a bit though as this sort of weather is fairly common. Reporting what we experience whilst out on the day is fair enough though I think. Also, I think everyone has a different opinon on where to draw the line regarding weather conditions. If there are any doubts then head back. It was a fine line and we had doubts as things were getting worse, so headed back. Glad we did.
In reply to Burnsie:
Burnsie, I've been going to the Cairngorms for 25 years. I know what they can be like. I wasn't saying it was unusual. I was saying it was terrible, and hoping people would watch out.
Last December two guys from Aberdeen died on the walk out from Sneachda. They weren't fools, they were good mountaineers. I don't want that happening to anyone else, including you.
Burnsie, I've been going to the Cairngorms for 25 years. I know what they can be like. I wasn't saying it was unusual. I was saying it was terrible, and hoping people would watch out.
Last December two guys from Aberdeen died on the walk out from Sneachda. They weren't fools, they were good mountaineers. I don't want that happening to anyone else, including you.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
The other interesting thing that has appeared this season has been the use of video footage. In my opinion this is a big step forward giving reports better clarity and context. The footage of 'The secret' is a great example of this. Some of the guides are now also providing video footage which is great. It's the first time I've tried it this season and hope people find it useful. It's also quite easy to do these days with high quality cams build into our small lightweight digital cameras, and the availibility of video steaming made possible through the likes of YouTube and Google Video.
> (In reply to Burnsie)
> [...]
>
> Not only to give an indication of current conditions which many are interested in but also to highlight a lesson learned.
> [...]
>
> Not only to give an indication of current conditions which many are interested in but also to highlight a lesson learned.
> Never presume that everyone is on the same page or has the same level of experience. One of the strengths of this media that we can get the message and information out quickly and to many.
>
Absolutely Mick. This is what this forum supposed to be all about. Reporting current conditions quickly. Tim's quick reporting was spot on. Not so much a news headline though, more a latest conditions report.>
The other interesting thing that has appeared this season has been the use of video footage. In my opinion this is a big step forward giving reports better clarity and context. The footage of 'The secret' is a great example of this. Some of the guides are now also providing video footage which is great. It's the first time I've tried it this season and hope people find it useful. It's also quite easy to do these days with high quality cams build into our small lightweight digital cameras, and the availibility of video steaming made possible through the likes of YouTube and Google Video.
In reply to JonY:
I will second that JonY its great that folk are reporting whats doing in the hills, am glad that you find the video thing usefull I have started doing it this season i run a small guiding thing with a conditions blog. I have been monitoring the amount of hits it gets and folk seem keen to get all the info they can judging by the amount of hits my site gets.
I was out climbing in the Gorms the day this thread was about and it was pretty wild althugh as you say not that news worthy in itsself as it was a pretty normal wild cairngorm day 'full flavour winter climbing' folk do need to watch out on those wild days but thats all part and parcel.
I will second that JonY its great that folk are reporting whats doing in the hills, am glad that you find the video thing usefull I have started doing it this season i run a small guiding thing with a conditions blog. I have been monitoring the amount of hits it gets and folk seem keen to get all the info they can judging by the amount of hits my site gets.
I was out climbing in the Gorms the day this thread was about and it was pretty wild althugh as you say not that news worthy in itsself as it was a pretty normal wild cairngorm day 'full flavour winter climbing' folk do need to watch out on those wild days but thats all part and parcel.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I was in the corries that day last December so appreciate your sentiment. I don't have anything against people posting up conditions reports or accident near misses so we can all learn but I think putting NEWS: in front of it by UKC makes it look like something unusual.
This is the cairngorms in it's raw state, it's not a news item - it happens every winter. I think that is the message people need to take on board - you should be prepared for weather like that every time you sent off into the hills, it's not unusual - this is Scotland, we get shit weather all the time.
I was in the corries that day last December so appreciate your sentiment. I don't have anything against people posting up conditions reports or accident near misses so we can all learn but I think putting NEWS: in front of it by UKC makes it look like something unusual.
This is the cairngorms in it's raw state, it's not a news item - it happens every winter. I think that is the message people need to take on board - you should be prepared for weather like that every time you sent off into the hills, it's not unusual - this is Scotland, we get shit weather all the time.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Topics with contents like this one will only encourage more ill-informed and inexperienced people to have an ’epic’.
You may have not picked up the news stories a few years ago, as you were over in the USA, when there was a spate of ‘climbers/hill walkers’ setting ever increasing records for being ‘lost’ in the Scottish hills in bad weather. The one who broke the record, was stuck in a snow hole in the Glenshee ski slopes, the weather was so ‘savage’ that the skiers never heard his cries for help. The £50,000 the newspapers paid to this person for his ‘story’, would have been better spent in a donation to the MRT’s who were looking for him.
Will UKC be running a competition for people’s first ‘epics’ in a Scottish winter?
>
> Never presume that everyone is on the same page or has the same level of experience. One of the strengths of this media that we can get the message and information out quickly and to many.
>
Don’t think everybody reading topics like this on UKC are as inexperienced as some hysterical posters on this thread. These conditions did not sound “savage” to the majority of hill goers, never mind climbers. > Never presume that everyone is on the same page or has the same level of experience. One of the strengths of this media that we can get the message and information out quickly and to many.
>
Topics with contents like this one will only encourage more ill-informed and inexperienced people to have an ’epic’.
You may have not picked up the news stories a few years ago, as you were over in the USA, when there was a spate of ‘climbers/hill walkers’ setting ever increasing records for being ‘lost’ in the Scottish hills in bad weather. The one who broke the record, was stuck in a snow hole in the Glenshee ski slopes, the weather was so ‘savage’ that the skiers never heard his cries for help. The £50,000 the newspapers paid to this person for his ‘story’, would have been better spent in a donation to the MRT’s who were looking for him.
Will UKC be running a competition for people’s first ‘epics’ in a Scottish winter?
In reply to Burnsie:
> (In reply to Tim Chappell)
>
> ... but I think putting NEWS: in front of it by UKC makes it look like something unusual.
>
I'll probably get linched for this but I'd agree with that. I think making it a 'news headline' does seem to send out the wrong message. I'm not sure why but UKC appear to be making conditions reports news articles at the moment. For some reason thefrontpoint report I posted has suddenly made headline news, which is very bizzare. Is there a lack of news articles about at the moment? >
> ... but I think putting NEWS: in front of it by UKC makes it look like something unusual.
>
In reply to Norrie Muir:
I don't see that, TBH. I think the likely effect is to make people think twice about going out at all when it's as rough as that. But I don't mind what people say; I think I've made my point.
> Topics with contents like this one will only encourage more ill-informed and inexperienced people to have an ’epic’.
I don't see that, TBH. I think the likely effect is to make people think twice about going out at all when it's as rough as that. But I don't mind what people say; I think I've made my point.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC)
> [...]
> [...]
> Topics with contents like this one will only encourage more ill-informed and inexperienced people to have an ’epic’.
>
Why is that? >
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Your post was fine Tim. I think Norrie is on a wind-up again. 'Savage' is a fair description. It doesn't suggest that these conditions were unusual or indeed that conditions can be much worse.
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
>
> [...]
>
> I don't see that, TBH. I think the likely effect is to make people think twice about going out at all when it's as rough as that. But I don't mind what people say; I think I've made my point.
>
> [...]
>
> I don't see that, TBH. I think the likely effect is to make people think twice about going out at all when it's as rough as that. But I don't mind what people say; I think I've made my point.
Your post was fine Tim. I think Norrie is on a wind-up again. 'Savage' is a fair description. It doesn't suggest that these conditions were unusual or indeed that conditions can be much worse.
In reply to JonY:
It is not a wind-up, I’ve been out in real ‘savage’ conditions and have always returned safe and sound.
So what would you describe conditions where fit people can’t walk out because the wind is over 100mph and is gusting even more?
> (In reply to Tim Chappell)
>
> Your post was fine Tim. I think Norrie is on a wind-up again. 'Savage' is a fair description. It doesn't suggest that these conditions were unusual or indeed that conditions can be much worse.
>
> Your post was fine Tim. I think Norrie is on a wind-up again. 'Savage' is a fair description. It doesn't suggest that these conditions were unusual or indeed that conditions can be much worse.
It is not a wind-up, I’ve been out in real ‘savage’ conditions and have always returned safe and sound.
So what would you describe conditions where fit people can’t walk out because the wind is over 100mph and is gusting even more?
In reply to JonY:
No.
It was my decision and I stand by it, my reasons are outlined above.
> (In reply to Burnsie)
> [...]
> Is there a lack of news articles about at the moment?
> [...]
> Is there a lack of news articles about at the moment?
No.
It was my decision and I stand by it, my reasons are outlined above.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
what a good idea Norrie, as always sharp as fcuk
i wonder for myself what will come first, writing my first epic into a little story, or maybe finally disappearing up my own arse
>
>
> Will UKC be running a competition for people’s first ‘epics’ in a Scottish winter?
>
> Will UKC be running a competition for people’s first ‘epics’ in a Scottish winter?
what a good idea Norrie, as always sharp as fcuk
i wonder for myself what will come first, writing my first epic into a little story, or maybe finally disappearing up my own arse
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Yes news, 99.9% of us were not there (including Norrie), but we need to know what's happening, thanks
Yes news, 99.9% of us were not there (including Norrie), but we need to know what's happening, thanks
In reply to Anonymous:
You can take norrie out of the norries but you can't take the norries out of norrie.
You can take norrie out of the norries but you can't take the norries out of norrie.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Norrie, you are of course right that it can be far worse; on Friday it was not nearly as bad as in the 80s when a > 100 m/h gale hit a Glenmore Lodge party on the Cairngorm plateau (as described in Martin Moran's winter moutain book).
But the conditions were less than perfect. Tim and I are both reasonably fit, we have ticked the Munros in all kinds of weather, walked out numerous times at night and it still took us 4.5 hours to get back to the car. You are right that many Scottish hillgoers will be able to deal with bad conditions but it it might be worth pointing out that Sneachda does not always mean an easy walk out.
Norrie, you are of course right that it can be far worse; on Friday it was not nearly as bad as in the 80s when a > 100 m/h gale hit a Glenmore Lodge party on the Cairngorm plateau (as described in Martin Moran's winter moutain book).
But the conditions were less than perfect. Tim and I are both reasonably fit, we have ticked the Munros in all kinds of weather, walked out numerous times at night and it still took us 4.5 hours to get back to the car. You are right that many Scottish hillgoers will be able to deal with bad conditions but it it might be worth pointing out that Sneachda does not always mean an easy walk out.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Erm... savager? Savagest? Bloody savage? Really, really savage?
Norrie, who cares what we call them provided we don't die?
>
> So what would you describe conditions where fit people can’t walk out because the wind is over 100mph and is gusting even more?
> So what would you describe conditions where fit people can’t walk out because the wind is over 100mph and is gusting even more?
Erm... savager? Savagest? Bloody savage? Really, really savage?
Norrie, who cares what we call them provided we don't die?
In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Fair point Mick. Thanks for your comment re the vid.
> (In reply to JonY)
> [...]
>
> No.
>
> It was my decision and I stand by it, my reasons are outlined above.
> [...]
>
> No.
>
> It was my decision and I stand by it, my reasons are outlined above.
Fair point Mick. Thanks for your comment re the vid.
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Hi,
It was nice to meet you on Sat/Sun. So, did you enjoy the Genie then? The Lamp was excellent, quite tricky first pitch and pleasant thereafter.
Heike
PS No more cheeky comments about out of condition routes from now on please....
Hi,
It was nice to meet you on Sat/Sun. So, did you enjoy the Genie then? The Lamp was excellent, quite tricky first pitch and pleasant thereafter.
Heike
PS No more cheeky comments about out of condition routes from now on please....
In reply to hwackerhage:
average mean winter wind speed on cairngorm is >40 mph!
Wind speeds over 100 mph are not uncommon at all they happen most years!
average mean winter wind speed on cairngorm is >40 mph!
Wind speeds over 100 mph are not uncommon at all they happen most years!
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Hi Stevo, yes, I agree but I don't remember the exact windspeed in the Martin Moran report. Thus a rather low estimate.
Hi Stevo, yes, I agree but I don't remember the exact windspeed in the Martin Moran report. Thus a rather low estimate.
In reply to Heike:
only sent you the one - just wondered if you got it because i never heard anything back.
only sent you the one - just wondered if you got it because i never heard anything back.
In reply to Burnsie:
I replied, sorry if you didn't get it! I am not at home at the moment, I'll send you a mail through UKC
I replied, sorry if you didn't get it! I am not at home at the moment, I'll send you a mail through UKC
In reply to Heike: Hmmm where's the embarrassed smilie when you need one!
Funnily enough we did The Message a couple of weeks after that and it looked very similar from below and I was doubting whether we should climb it, but we did and it certainly felt more wintry once we were on it! (in fact, although it's not full-on winter conditions, those conditions seem to be the easiest and most enjoyable!)
The Genie was good, I felt the first pitch was pretty sketchy, had my axes and feet pop quite a few times. Exiting the corner at the top seemed to involve some good old fashioned thrutching to!
How did you like your new griprests?
Funnily enough we did The Message a couple of weeks after that and it looked very similar from below and I was doubting whether we should climb it, but we did and it certainly felt more wintry once we were on it! (in fact, although it's not full-on winter conditions, those conditions seem to be the easiest and most enjoyable!)
The Genie was good, I felt the first pitch was pretty sketchy, had my axes and feet pop quite a few times. Exiting the corner at the top seemed to involve some good old fashioned thrutching to!
How did you like your new griprests?
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Hehehe
Yeah, that seems to be my lasting memory of the Genie!
Great really! The only thing that's more difficult is to shove the handle into a crack.
> (In reply to Heike) Hmmm where's the embarrassed smilie when you need one!
>
>
Hehehe
>
Exiting the corner at the top seemed to involve some good old fashioned thrutching to!Yeah, that seems to be my lasting memory of the Genie!
>
> How did you like your new griprests?
> How did you like your new griprests?
Great really! The only thing that's more difficult is to shove the handle into a crack.
In reply to Heike: Can't say I've ever tried to use my axe that way!
I thought the second pitch of the Genie was quite amusing, kind of like doing pullups when lying on your side a 60 degree slope!
I thought the second pitch of the Genie was quite amusing, kind of like doing pullups when lying on your side a 60 degree slope!
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Great. It wasn't just me then doing it that way.
Great. It wasn't just me then doing it that way.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I'm abosolutely amazed at this thread and the UKC news...
Just to put things in context the days before Friday's so called storm and of recently have been a lot wilder.
Gusts in excess of 135 mph were recorded today, Wednesday 9th of January 2008. These are not unusual conditions in Scotland especially the Cairngorms for this time of year. What is unusual is that there are more and more climbers and walkers out on the hill that do not have the traditional Scottish winter hillwalking background. Climbers now generaly have good but really well over specified kit.However they are unable to cope physically and mentally with the intensity of the weather and snow conditions. This is often due to inexperience. This can be often the result of advertising and magazine hype as well as lack of basic training and experience.
Over the last few weeks local outdoor workers, ski centre employees, climbers, guides and instructors have been out daily in such conditions or worse on their own and with clients. They have also probably saved a few life's in the process. It is part of their daily job but don't rely on it. You need to be completely self reliant.
Please forget about grades and starred routes and pay more attention to the weather avalanche reports and common sense. You need experience and basic skills. You have but one life only so stay safe and don't get caught up in the advertising, forum and media hype.
Cheers Ron
I'm abosolutely amazed at this thread and the UKC news...
Just to put things in context the days before Friday's so called storm and of recently have been a lot wilder.
Gusts in excess of 135 mph were recorded today, Wednesday 9th of January 2008. These are not unusual conditions in Scotland especially the Cairngorms for this time of year. What is unusual is that there are more and more climbers and walkers out on the hill that do not have the traditional Scottish winter hillwalking background. Climbers now generaly have good but really well over specified kit.However they are unable to cope physically and mentally with the intensity of the weather and snow conditions. This is often due to inexperience. This can be often the result of advertising and magazine hype as well as lack of basic training and experience.
Over the last few weeks local outdoor workers, ski centre employees, climbers, guides and instructors have been out daily in such conditions or worse on their own and with clients. They have also probably saved a few life's in the process. It is part of their daily job but don't rely on it. You need to be completely self reliant.
Please forget about grades and starred routes and pay more attention to the weather avalanche reports and common sense. You need experience and basic skills. You have but one life only so stay safe and don't get caught up in the advertising, forum and media hype.
Cheers Ron
In reply to Ron Walker:
Absolutely Ron. But why are you amazed by this thread?
Surely it echos what you have just said.
Absolutely Ron. But why are you amazed by this thread?
Surely it echos what you have just said.
In reply to Jonathan Yates: I think what Ron is implying is this sort of stuff is not news worthy, it`s the norm. You are entering a winter environment, the highest and coldest in the UK.
Day in day out people are out on the hill in worse conditions, through experience and skills they deal with it and come back the next day for more.
If we all created news stories for being caught in strong winds and blizzards in the cairngorms, then the news would be a pretty repetitive affair.
What was that motto? "be prepared".
Day in day out people are out on the hill in worse conditions, through experience and skills they deal with it and come back the next day for more.
If we all created news stories for being caught in strong winds and blizzards in the cairngorms, then the news would be a pretty repetitive affair.
What was that motto? "be prepared".
In reply to Jonathan Yates:
The fact that a fairly typical wild day in the Cairngrms weatherwise is news on UKC...! Over the past few weeks we've and many other have been out daily in these conditions and really thought nothing of it. As I've said several times before it's fairly normal conditions for a hillwalker and as long as you have goggles and can navigate in a whiteout it's OK...! If you can't well that's an other story.
Cheer Ron
The fact that a fairly typical wild day in the Cairngrms weatherwise is news on UKC...! Over the past few weeks we've and many other have been out daily in these conditions and really thought nothing of it. As I've said several times before it's fairly normal conditions for a hillwalker and as long as you have goggles and can navigate in a whiteout it's OK...! If you can't well that's an other story.
Cheer Ron
In reply to Will W:
Oh I see. I think the thread itself is fine and Tim was just reporting his day out. That's what this forum is for.
Making it a news article is another issue which is down to UKC, which has already been covered above by Mick.
Oh I see. I think the thread itself is fine and Tim was just reporting his day out. That's what this forum is for.
Making it a news article is another issue which is down to UKC, which has already been covered above by Mick.
In reply to Ron Walker:
And I'm a bit amazed, Ron, that so many people have seen the need to grumble about my original post.
All I did is this: I had a day on the hill, then thought the conditions that we experienced coming out were such that it might be an idea to warn others. There seemed to be a lot of people on here champing at the bit to get up there, and I saw that the forecasts were getting worse, so I thought I might just say "hold on". As you say, we can never assume anything about others' level of experience.
It was Mick's idea to turn my post into News. Though I don't have any complaints about that-- I'm glad he thought it mattered--that was his decision, not mine.
I said the weather was severe, I didn't say it had never been more severe. I said I was out in it, I didn't say others hadn't been out more often in much worse. I do read the weather reports, I do have common sense, and I do have experience.
I'm assuming from your remarks that you were actually in Coire an t-Sneachda on Friday evening, since you have such a clear grasp of how the conditions we experienced then compare with other conditions?
I think it's very important that walkers/ climbers shouldn't feel unable to debrief after an incident because they get lectured and slagged off for admitting that there was a problem. This pattern "report a danger/ get slagged off for reporting it" has happened to me on climbing forums before. But it's much better if we concentrate on trying to learn from each other's experiences rather than constantly trying to put others down and prove we're better than them.
If anyone would like a framed certificate saying that they're better at climbing/ walking/ navigating/ surviving than I am, they should just write to me and I'll provide them with one. And then perhaps we can get on with a more worthwhile conversation.
And I'm a bit amazed, Ron, that so many people have seen the need to grumble about my original post.
All I did is this: I had a day on the hill, then thought the conditions that we experienced coming out were such that it might be an idea to warn others. There seemed to be a lot of people on here champing at the bit to get up there, and I saw that the forecasts were getting worse, so I thought I might just say "hold on". As you say, we can never assume anything about others' level of experience.
It was Mick's idea to turn my post into News. Though I don't have any complaints about that-- I'm glad he thought it mattered--that was his decision, not mine.
I said the weather was severe, I didn't say it had never been more severe. I said I was out in it, I didn't say others hadn't been out more often in much worse. I do read the weather reports, I do have common sense, and I do have experience.
I'm assuming from your remarks that you were actually in Coire an t-Sneachda on Friday evening, since you have such a clear grasp of how the conditions we experienced then compare with other conditions?
I think it's very important that walkers/ climbers shouldn't feel unable to debrief after an incident because they get lectured and slagged off for admitting that there was a problem. This pattern "report a danger/ get slagged off for reporting it" has happened to me on climbing forums before. But it's much better if we concentrate on trying to learn from each other's experiences rather than constantly trying to put others down and prove we're better than them.
If anyone would like a framed certificate saying that they're better at climbing/ walking/ navigating/ surviving than I am, they should just write to me and I'll provide them with one. And then perhaps we can get on with a more worthwhile conversation.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Tim,
For what it's worth, I think you were right to report what you experienced on the hill in the forums. The problem is that as soon as Mick branded it as 'news', it gave the impression that something really out of the ordinary had happened (isn't that the definition of news?) which could be very misleading. I think some people are (rightly, IMHO) condemning that decision and your original post is getting caught in the crossfire.
Tim,
For what it's worth, I think you were right to report what you experienced on the hill in the forums. The problem is that as soon as Mick branded it as 'news', it gave the impression that something really out of the ordinary had happened (isn't that the definition of news?) which could be very misleading. I think some people are (rightly, IMHO) condemning that decision and your original post is getting caught in the crossfire.
In reply to Neil Adams:
Thanks, Neil. If your analysis is right, and it looks like it could be, I do wonder a bit why people care whether or not Mick R. heads my post 'News'. Why does it matter so much to them?
I don't care whether something is headed News. Nor do I care (very much) what other climbers think of me, unless they're already friends of mine. What's important here, as far as I'm concerned, is just these 2 things: (1) that people should get as much info as possible before going into potentially hazardous situations; (2) that posters on UKC should not create an atmosphere where it's impossible for people to report problems without getting done over.
Anyway, I've said my piece. It's time to do some work.
Thanks, Neil. If your analysis is right, and it looks like it could be, I do wonder a bit why people care whether or not Mick R. heads my post 'News'. Why does it matter so much to them?
I don't care whether something is headed News. Nor do I care (very much) what other climbers think of me, unless they're already friends of mine. What's important here, as far as I'm concerned, is just these 2 things: (1) that people should get as much info as possible before going into potentially hazardous situations; (2) that posters on UKC should not create an atmosphere where it's impossible for people to report problems without getting done over.
Anyway, I've said my piece. It's time to do some work.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Well put Tim. I'd love one of those framed certificates by the way, but I doubt I'd qualify.
Well put Tim. I'd love one of those framed certificates by the way, but I doubt I'd qualify.
In reply to Jonathan Yates:
Have one anyway!
******************************************
This is to certify
that
[fill in name]
is a way better climber/ walker/ survivor/ navigator/ forum sage
than
Tim Chappell
who is a bumbly arse who doesn't know jack shit about anything
**************************************************
There you go. Pass 'em round, sell 'em on E-Bay, I don't care...
Have one anyway!
******************************************
This is to certify
that
[fill in name]
is a way better climber/ walker/ survivor/ navigator/ forum sage
than
Tim Chappell
who is a bumbly arse who doesn't know jack shit about anything
**************************************************
There you go. Pass 'em round, sell 'em on E-Bay, I don't care...
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I'm afraid I think mine would be a fake. You had the balls to do the route we intended climbing that day. I'm humbled by your bottle. Was a damn fine effort given the conditions.
I'm afraid I think mine would be a fake. You had the balls to do the route we intended climbing that day. I'm humbled by your bottle. Was a damn fine effort given the conditions.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Just re read your item, at the bottom in capital letters are the words, BE CAREFUL.
Sod the snipers, they may or may not be better, they will get caught out, as other top climbers have over the years and will either get themselves out of it or die. You warned everyone, as do SAIS with their reports. Machismo can be dangerous in the hills, we have all been there and done it and most get away with it then decide enough is enough.
Just re read your item, at the bottom in capital letters are the words, BE CAREFUL.
Sod the snipers, they may or may not be better, they will get caught out, as other top climbers have over the years and will either get themselves out of it or die. You warned everyone, as do SAIS with their reports. Machismo can be dangerous in the hills, we have all been there and done it and most get away with it then decide enough is enough.
In reply to sutty:
Cheers, Sutty and Jonathan. Like I say, the main thing is to make sure we climbers don't do so much macho posturing that we make it impossible for anyone to report a problem without getting flamed...
Cheers, Sutty and Jonathan. Like I say, the main thing is to make sure we climbers don't do so much macho posturing that we make it impossible for anyone to report a problem without getting flamed...
In reply to sutty:
good old UKC arguments, going round in circles for ever ! - no one is not saying to be careful - the whole reason it's gone on for so long is conditions like this are not uncommon or "news" in the cairngorms - be careful every time you go out !
good old UKC arguments, going round in circles for ever ! - no one is not saying to be careful - the whole reason it's gone on for so long is conditions like this are not uncommon or "news" in the cairngorms - be careful every time you go out !
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Here is 'macho posturing'
"Topic - So, who'll be out in the snow tomorrow?
by - Tim Chappell on - 17:59 Thu
I will!
See you in Coire an t-Sneachda!
--Where we have a plan to cruise (Henning)/ flail (me) our way up a certain route that I'll tell you about after/ if we do it...
Looks like it's going to be bloody grim weather, but never mind. A climb is a climb is a climb, and I've had a very slow holiday climbing-wise. Though not in other respects... "
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> Cheers, Sutty and Jonathan. Like I say, the main thing is to make sure we climbers don't do so much macho posturing that we make it impossible for anyone to report a problem without getting flamed...
>
> Cheers, Sutty and Jonathan. Like I say, the main thing is to make sure we climbers don't do so much macho posturing that we make it impossible for anyone to report a problem without getting flamed...
Here is 'macho posturing'
"Topic - So, who'll be out in the snow tomorrow?
by - Tim Chappell on - 17:59 Thu
I will!
See you in Coire an t-Sneachda!
--Where we have a plan to cruise (Henning)/ flail (me) our way up a certain route that I'll tell you about after/ if we do it...
Looks like it's going to be bloody grim weather, but never mind. A climb is a climb is a climb, and I've had a very slow holiday climbing-wise. Though not in other respects... "
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Er, what? I said I'd flail my way up the route, and that's macho posturing?
No, don't bother replying Norrie, it really won't be worth it for either of us <sigh>
Er, what? I said I'd flail my way up the route, and that's macho posturing?
No, don't bother replying Norrie, it really won't be worth it for either of us <sigh>
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Yes Norrie, it was a bit macho but he had the guts to come back and report that it was not the easy trip he thought it would be as a warning to others. Fair dos old lad.
Yes Norrie, it was a bit macho but he had the guts to come back and report that it was not the easy trip he thought it would be as a warning to others. Fair dos old lad.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Just reading this at work
Let's face it, for 95% of the people reading UKC, it's interesting to see what the weather is doing up in the Gorms. It's certainly more intense than the draft that blows through the grill on the door, or the run into work.
Thank you for posting it. I have showed the video to some of the kids in my classes who found it really exciting/interesting/informative.
It may very well be the norm up in them there hills, but for us weekend warriors it's lovely to see it and have some people's opinions, no matter how run of the mill it is.
If you don't want to read that bit of news...don't click!
Just reading this at work
Let's face it, for 95% of the people reading UKC, it's interesting to see what the weather is doing up in the Gorms. It's certainly more intense than the draft that blows through the grill on the door, or the run into work.
Thank you for posting it. I have showed the video to some of the kids in my classes who found it really exciting/interesting/informative.
It may very well be the norm up in them there hills, but for us weekend warriors it's lovely to see it and have some people's opinions, no matter how run of the mill it is.
If you don't want to read that bit of news...don't click!
In reply to sutty:
I tend to agree with Ron Walker when he posts about the “Savage conditions”, “As I've said several times before it's fairly normal conditions for a hillwalker and as long as you have goggles and can navigate in a whiteout it's OK...! If you can't well that's an other story”.
I would not think ‘guts’ as an appropriate word to describe the report, more like what comes out of one’s guts.
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
>
> Yes Norrie, it was a bit macho but he had the guts to come back and report that it was not the easy trip he thought it would be as a warning to others. Fair dos old lad.
>
> Yes Norrie, it was a bit macho but he had the guts to come back and report that it was not the easy trip he thought it would be as a warning to others. Fair dos old lad.
I tend to agree with Ron Walker when he posts about the “Savage conditions”, “As I've said several times before it's fairly normal conditions for a hillwalker and as long as you have goggles and can navigate in a whiteout it's OK...! If you can't well that's an other story”.
I would not think ‘guts’ as an appropriate word to describe the report, more like what comes out of one’s guts.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
>
Ah, so you were in Coire an t-Sneachda last Friday too? Goodness, it must have been quite crowded.
I'm fed up of this nonsense. Bye bye thread.
>
> I tend to agree with Ron Walker when he posts about the “Savage conditions”,
Ah, so you were in Coire an t-Sneachda last Friday too? Goodness, it must have been quite crowded.
I'm fed up of this nonsense. Bye bye thread.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
We bumped into, and walked out with, guide John Lyall on the way out who commented that in those conditions people get killed.
Savage enough I think if you're not prepared.
It's worth making everyone aware that it doesn't need to be blowing at 135mph before it becomes 'Savage' and you need to be prepared.
We bumped into, and walked out with, guide John Lyall on the way out who commented that in those conditions people get killed.
Savage enough I think if you're not prepared.
It's worth making everyone aware that it doesn't need to be blowing at 135mph before it becomes 'Savage' and you need to be prepared.
In reply to Jonathan Yates:
Quite.
Sadly Cairngorms weather regularly claims the lives of climbers and walkers. The climbs in the Northern Corries seem near to the road with straightforward approaches and escapes. It is not until one has experienced really bad weather that most realise what a dangerous place they can be.
If the post and the article about the difficulties experienced in moderately bad weather make folk prepare and plan a little more carefully and hence stop just one fatality then they've been worthwhile.
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
>
> We bumped into, and walked out with, guide John Lyall on the way out who commented that in those conditions people get killed.
>
>
> We bumped into, and walked out with, guide John Lyall on the way out who commented that in those conditions people get killed.
>
Quite.
Sadly Cairngorms weather regularly claims the lives of climbers and walkers. The climbs in the Northern Corries seem near to the road with straightforward approaches and escapes. It is not until one has experienced really bad weather that most realise what a dangerous place they can be.
If the post and the article about the difficulties experienced in moderately bad weather make folk prepare and plan a little more carefully and hence stop just one fatality then they've been worthwhile.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Here is some more info about how bad it really was!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7178866.s...
Here is some more info about how bad it really was!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7178866.s...
In reply to swissskiwhisky:
Not 'was' as that BBC report was for Tuesday/Wednesday night, and not for Friday, 4 January 2008. The weather was normal for the Friday, see Ron Walker's posts.
> (In reply to Tim Chappell)
>
> Here is some more info about how bad it really was!
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7178866.s...
>
> Here is some more info about how bad it really was!
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7178866.s...
Not 'was' as that BBC report was for Tuesday/Wednesday night, and not for Friday, 4 January 2008. The weather was normal for the Friday, see Ron Walker's posts.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Excellent, bring it on!!! I was getting a little alarmed over the last few weeks with so many factual, interesting and informative postings, often with a degree of politeness and mutual understanding.
So it is a great relief to find a proper thread!! Excellent pointless arguing and posturing - bring it on! Just what I want when I'm bored with work!
So good, I must join in!!
The OP was probably unneccessary, but also informative for anyone thinking of going out, so in my (humble) opinion, fine.
There is NO WAY that a severe storm in the Cairngorms in January is NEWS. This is manufacturing news, and to justify it as public information or 'highlighting lessons learnt' is garbage. What lesson: that it gets very windy in Jan in Cairngorms? That its not very nice when it does? That you cant stand up or see? Likewise, getting avalanched out of a gully when its snowing isnt really news - nice OP, but not news. If you dont know that wind and snow in the mountains are potentially dangerous you are a moron, not a beginner.
But does it really matter? Of course not, but thats the entire point!!
Thankyou!!
Excellent, bring it on!!! I was getting a little alarmed over the last few weeks with so many factual, interesting and informative postings, often with a degree of politeness and mutual understanding.
So it is a great relief to find a proper thread!! Excellent pointless arguing and posturing - bring it on! Just what I want when I'm bored with work!
So good, I must join in!!
The OP was probably unneccessary, but also informative for anyone thinking of going out, so in my (humble) opinion, fine.
There is NO WAY that a severe storm in the Cairngorms in January is NEWS. This is manufacturing news, and to justify it as public information or 'highlighting lessons learnt' is garbage. What lesson: that it gets very windy in Jan in Cairngorms? That its not very nice when it does? That you cant stand up or see? Likewise, getting avalanched out of a gully when its snowing isnt really news - nice OP, but not news. If you dont know that wind and snow in the mountains are potentially dangerous you are a moron, not a beginner.
But does it really matter? Of course not, but thats the entire point!!
Thankyou!!
> Quite.
>
> Sadly Cairngorms weather regularly claims the lives of climbers and walkers. The climbs in the Northern Corries seem near to the road with straightforward approaches and escapes. It is not until one has experienced really bad weather that most realise what a dangerous place they can be.
>
> If the post and the article about the difficulties experienced in moderately bad weather make folk prepare and plan a little more carefully and hence stop just one fatality then they've been worthwhile.
>
> Sadly Cairngorms weather regularly claims the lives of climbers and walkers. The climbs in the Northern Corries seem near to the road with straightforward approaches and escapes. It is not until one has experienced really bad weather that most realise what a dangerous place they can be.
>
> If the post and the article about the difficulties experienced in moderately bad weather make folk prepare and plan a little more carefully and hence stop just one fatality then they've been worthwhile.
Hear! Hear! I agree heartily with both points. Concerning your first, wasn't it Rusty Baillie in "Cold Climbs" who sagely quoted about the Northern Corries:
"The Northern Corries are friendly places, as mountains go. Not too remote or too big. Challenging but not demanding. A place to climb like a gentleman, between a good breakfast and a high tea. Of course, because of this, they kill a great number of people"
However, this quote dates from the 1970's, before the Aonach Mor Chairlift was built. One fine day in early March 2004, my mate Paul (with whom I will be climbing this weekend!) and I went there to bag a couple of pleasant ice climbs (Tunnel Vision and the direct icefall start to Forgotten Twin). On the descent of Easy Gully both of us were amazed at the large number of folk who really seemed miles out of our depth, roping up for the descent of the entire gully (no need - it was bomber neve, not too steep, easy to WALK(!) down and joining the unbelievably large queue (I counted 12 climbers!) on the first BELAY LEDGE of Right Twin. I managed to shove a gloved fist in my mouth but Paul just pissed himself laughing for the whole approach!
I have never seen such crowds on any route in the "Norries".
Apart from lack of imagination, this suggests to me that there is no more effective magnet than Aonach Mor to ensnare inexperienced, possibly lazy (taking the ski lift all the way up to the top makes a 5 minute walk in - may seem more applealing than the marathon 50 minute approach to Coire an tSneachda in good conditions!), naive climbers.
I will freely admit to my share of stupidity and incompetence when I started - exemplified by leading the second steep section of Glass Slipper with no belay below me (I know you will take no offence, Neil!) 2 previous mountain leads (summer AND winter! - Doh!) and having never placed ice screws before (quite comical, considering the FOUR I carried!). Probably the best thing I did well was place a textbook winter belay: hex 8 walloped in with my hammer and rock 3 beaten in with the pick!
However, I did have some winter hillwalking experience, a modicum of fitness and I am in hindsight grateful that my first winter routes were on Stob Coire an Lochain and Creag Meagaidh (giving a beginner like me in 1999 a slightly more "complete" mountain experience than I would have gained in the mad dash up Aonach Mor).
I have to say I agree with many folk posting here (and the introductory pages of "Scottish Winter Climbs; 1996 edition") that a sound grounding in winter hillwalking is virtually essential before taking up winter climbing.
I don't think I have ranted so much on UKC, but this thread is fabulous LOL!
P.S. Hopefully will get a mid-altitude mixed route done in the 'Coe on Sat
;-]
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Thanks for the report Tim.
140mph winds, that nowt, when I wer lad we 'ad 160mph wind everyday and we had t' crawl t' school huggin gutter. An we were lucky.
Thanks for the report Tim.
140mph winds, that nowt, when I wer lad we 'ad 160mph wind everyday and we had t' crawl t' school huggin gutter. An we were lucky.
In reply to elephantspittle: luxury! In my day.............
In reply to elephantspittle:
I dreamt of having a gutter to hug.
Bill
> (In reply to Tim Chappell)
..... we had t' crawl t' school huggin gutter.I dreamt of having a gutter to hug.
Bill
In reply to bill strachan:
Dreamt? What's that? We were lucky if we were allowed to take more than two breaths a minute.
Dreamt? What's that? We were lucky if we were allowed to take more than two breaths a minute.
In reply to sutty:
Well when I say "air", what I mean is a few litres of carbon monoxide and on a Sunday it would be mustard gas for a treat.........
Well when I say "air", what I mean is a few litres of carbon monoxide and on a Sunday it would be mustard gas for a treat.........
In reply to Donald M: luxury! When I were a lad we had to pay to give the mustard gas to the govt. We had to live in a vacuum 8 days a week whilst our dad beat us with a JCB barehanded and if we were lucky he allowed us to climb rhapsody solo.
In reply to Glyn Jones: 'Dreamed' of vacuum...and a dad? Didnt have lungs where we lived!
In reply to dek: Dad, wtf???? Do they no ken we're fae Dundee!
In reply to lasonj:
> (In reply to dek) Dad, wtf???? Do they no ken we're fae Dundee!
Shut up! Sis/Cousin/Auntie...err Mammy!In reply to dek: Oh bollox, always kent that bairn I dumped in the skip at the back o Viccy Wines at the bottom o the Hulltoon wid come back and haunt me!
In reply to lasonj: skip? Luxury! When I was abandoned it was in a bin of barbed wire.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
> (In reply to dek)
> Is there something in the water in Dundee that makes people exaggerate things?
Is there a particular item you mean? > Is there something in the water in Dundee that makes people exaggerate things?
In reply to Norrie Muir: The same thing that gives us such charm though
Erm......
In reply to Norrie Muir: I think Tim might be English? But he is a Celtic fan too, so we need to excuse his exaggeration's!
In reply to lasonj:
> (In reply to Norrie Muir) The same thing that gives us such charm though
Were the boys fae the 'Tap o the Hill'..never worked and we never will?!In reply to Tim Chappell:
Tim, despite the flak you're getting from some quarters, I think the information your provided and even the way it was presented on the forum are very helpful.
Before I had even set foot in the Cairngorms for the first time, I had read
Scotland's Winter Mountains (Martin Moran's excellent but now out-of-print book) many times. (Now, who did I lend it to?) I was fascinated to read his observation that the AVERAGE windspeed on the cairngorm plateau in winter, 24/7,is 39 MPH. That's gale force. And of course I also read that at the time, the maximum recorded gust was 176 miles an hour, with the caveat that a failure of the AWS was to be expected above these speeds.
When I first went there about 15 years ago, I really wanted to experience a flavour of the winter savagery that I'd read about. And indeed I did. On my first trip, I found was part of an alarmed group trundling about on the plateau and navigating back to snowholes on Ciste Mharead in storm force winds at midnight. It really did seem like hell, but what really came across was how the instructors remained mentally pin-sharp, to the extent that one had no difficulty in pinpointing the Marquis Well in these conditions. A lot of folk would have difficulty with that on a clear day in winter.
For the rest of us, it wasn't such a slick performance. There was glove-fumbling, compass-lanyard twisting, stopping to zip things, adjust clothing, and so on. I made a mental note of the difference in performance.
After that, I used to make a habit doing solo lightweight three-day tours into the distant corries, all the time thinking how I could be more efficient and how to progressively desensitise myself to 'The conditions.'
'The conditions' arrived during my second trip. I was coming back from Carn Etchacan in early March in already severe but worsening weather and it took me seven hours and all my resolve to cross to the other side of the plateau. The level of focus needed to operate in these conditions really is beyond the imagination.
We've been having a lot of unreliable winters. On top of that, it's not exaggerating things to say there's a changing 'apprenticeship' profile of many visitors to the northern corries -- gristone climbing, up-for-it and capable of tasty technical grades, but perhaps little winter conditions savvy.
It doesn't harm to remind us that in a 'normal' Cairngorm winter, you need to be exceptionally aerobically fit, organised, a storm-seasoned navigator and capable of thinking fast and accurately.
It's part of the character of these big corries to produce sometimes desperate conditions. However plush your downie, you can perish very quickly indeed unless you know what you're doing.
Tim, despite the flak you're getting from some quarters, I think the information your provided and even the way it was presented on the forum are very helpful.
Before I had even set foot in the Cairngorms for the first time, I had read
Scotland's Winter Mountains (Martin Moran's excellent but now out-of-print book) many times. (Now, who did I lend it to?) I was fascinated to read his observation that the AVERAGE windspeed on the cairngorm plateau in winter, 24/7,is 39 MPH. That's gale force. And of course I also read that at the time, the maximum recorded gust was 176 miles an hour, with the caveat that a failure of the AWS was to be expected above these speeds.
When I first went there about 15 years ago, I really wanted to experience a flavour of the winter savagery that I'd read about. And indeed I did. On my first trip, I found was part of an alarmed group trundling about on the plateau and navigating back to snowholes on Ciste Mharead in storm force winds at midnight. It really did seem like hell, but what really came across was how the instructors remained mentally pin-sharp, to the extent that one had no difficulty in pinpointing the Marquis Well in these conditions. A lot of folk would have difficulty with that on a clear day in winter.
For the rest of us, it wasn't such a slick performance. There was glove-fumbling, compass-lanyard twisting, stopping to zip things, adjust clothing, and so on. I made a mental note of the difference in performance.
After that, I used to make a habit doing solo lightweight three-day tours into the distant corries, all the time thinking how I could be more efficient and how to progressively desensitise myself to 'The conditions.'
'The conditions' arrived during my second trip. I was coming back from Carn Etchacan in early March in already severe but worsening weather and it took me seven hours and all my resolve to cross to the other side of the plateau. The level of focus needed to operate in these conditions really is beyond the imagination.
We've been having a lot of unreliable winters. On top of that, it's not exaggerating things to say there's a changing 'apprenticeship' profile of many visitors to the northern corries -- gristone climbing, up-for-it and capable of tasty technical grades, but perhaps little winter conditions savvy.
It doesn't harm to remind us that in a 'normal' Cairngorm winter, you need to be exceptionally aerobically fit, organised, a storm-seasoned navigator and capable of thinking fast and accurately.
It's part of the character of these big corries to produce sometimes desperate conditions. However plush your downie, you can perish very quickly indeed unless you know what you're doing.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
have you read, Two Star Red, worth a read in its entirety here;http://www.rafmountainrescue.com/Article%20Archive/2%20Star%20Red/Two%20Sta...
This chapter describes several incidents where people have been overcome by conditions and died;
http://www.rafmountainrescue.com/Article%20Archive/2%20Star%20Red/Chapter%2...
have you read, Two Star Red, worth a read in its entirety here;http://www.rafmountainrescue.com/Article%20Archive/2%20Star%20Red/Two%20Sta...
This chapter describes several incidents where people have been overcome by conditions and died;
http://www.rafmountainrescue.com/Article%20Archive/2%20Star%20Red/Chapter%2...
In reply to Astral Highway: And to Tim Chappell and to Ron Walker too. Fantastic determination to agree makes for good posts. Shame about some of the nerdy comments from others - rule of the web.
I was in Coire an-t-Sneachda on Friday 4th January as well with two young climbers. We turned back from just below the crags in nigh-on impossible conditions. Walking - staggering - back to the car park took forever and was not easy. In the back of my mind I kept thinking of the Bell brothers who died so close to the car park - a tragedy repeated last winter where two young Aberdeen climbers perished in similar fashion.
I checked the Weather Station Statistics afterwards and could not believe what I was reading - and have since checked with a meteorological colleague. The wind and gusts were far more severe at Car Park Level than at Cairngorm Summit; and the pretty well constant gusts were fuelled and loaded with all the ices granules imaginable, gathered on the plateau. They were being dumped in Loch Morlich as far as we could make out. Here's the figures for those interested. The left hand column is the time. The next the mean; the max wind speed; the min wind speed; the actual temp; the temp allowing for wind chill.
4th January 2008
1018 38.7 50.5 30.3 -5 -19.4
1048 38.6 50.5 6.4 -5 -19.4
1118 35.1 48.6 26.6 -5 -18.7
1148 45.9 56.9 14.7 -5 -21.9
1218 44.7 59.6 19.3 -5 -22.9
1248 47.7 66 23.8 -6 -30.5
1318 42.6 56 21.1 -6 -25.8
1348 33 43.1 27.5 -6 -19.9
1418 37.5 48.6 26.6 -6 -22.4
1448 37.7 44 24.8 -6 -20.3
1518 42.5 49.5 37.6 -6 -22.8
9th January 2008
618 79.6 108.2 62.4 -3 -25.0
648 83.5 112.8 54.1 -3 -26.0
718 79.5 104.6 58.8 -3 -24.1
748 80.4 103.7 45 -4 -31.9
818 80.9 126.6 56.9 -4 -39.0
848 71.7 100 57.8 -4 -30.8
918 89.2 116.5 63.3 -4 -35.8
948 89.7 112 62.4 -4 -34.5
1018 85.2 105.5 66 -4 -32.5
Curious thing is that the wind chill was every bit as bad on the 4th January as the 9th because of the few degrees extra of frost.
Only one thing I would take serious issue with in all the posts on this and that is the comment about 'Winter Hillwalking'. There's no such thing. I'll quote from a piece I wrote 14 years ago - and every bit as relevant in this, the first seriously wintery start to winter in over a decade.
"A little advice to those who would 'climb, if they will'...
1) There is no such thing as winter hillwalking. Hillwalking is a summer pursuit (and in most Scottish summers, you need to be prepared for winter) IN WINTER THERE IS ONLY MOUNTAINEERING.
2) Know your limitations, and don't be afraid to say no. It ain't chicken .. it is just being realistic.
3) Turning back (indeed, not even getting out of the car) isn't an admission of defeat. Its wisdom and sound judgement coming to the fore.
4) Errors of judgement are the main apparent cause of accidents - knowledge, experience, and an ability to use both could be critical. As one of my own mentors frequently reminded me ....."The time to relax is in the pub, not at the top of the climb."
5) Individual responsibility is the name of the game. It is your life, your risk. Never abrogate that responsibility to others. Participate in the decisions, even if you feel like the dampener on enthusiasm. What you perceive as enthusiasm could be rashness. You could also spot someone else's mistake.
6) And finally a message for the experienced. Always keep on teaching. I was climbing at the weekend on the Aberdeen Sea Cliffs, and out of a habit born from much teaching of the less experienced, observed my partner mis-tie a figure of eight. "That's right ....Treat me as a novice" was my partner's response as I pointed out the error; but it was not resentment, more a wish that something he appreciated should continue."
Somehow this seemed to have a resonance to the discussions that have swirled around this post like the ice spicules did that day in Coire an-t-Sneachda.
I was out Ski Touring on Beinn Bhreac on Saturday and it was gusting at 50mph all afternoon, but it seemed almost benign compared to Jan 4th.
Bob Reid
21/1/08
I was in Coire an-t-Sneachda on Friday 4th January as well with two young climbers. We turned back from just below the crags in nigh-on impossible conditions. Walking - staggering - back to the car park took forever and was not easy. In the back of my mind I kept thinking of the Bell brothers who died so close to the car park - a tragedy repeated last winter where two young Aberdeen climbers perished in similar fashion.
I checked the Weather Station Statistics afterwards and could not believe what I was reading - and have since checked with a meteorological colleague. The wind and gusts were far more severe at Car Park Level than at Cairngorm Summit; and the pretty well constant gusts were fuelled and loaded with all the ices granules imaginable, gathered on the plateau. They were being dumped in Loch Morlich as far as we could make out. Here's the figures for those interested. The left hand column is the time. The next the mean; the max wind speed; the min wind speed; the actual temp; the temp allowing for wind chill.
4th January 2008
1018 38.7 50.5 30.3 -5 -19.4
1048 38.6 50.5 6.4 -5 -19.4
1118 35.1 48.6 26.6 -5 -18.7
1148 45.9 56.9 14.7 -5 -21.9
1218 44.7 59.6 19.3 -5 -22.9
1248 47.7 66 23.8 -6 -30.5
1318 42.6 56 21.1 -6 -25.8
1348 33 43.1 27.5 -6 -19.9
1418 37.5 48.6 26.6 -6 -22.4
1448 37.7 44 24.8 -6 -20.3
1518 42.5 49.5 37.6 -6 -22.8
9th January 2008
618 79.6 108.2 62.4 -3 -25.0
648 83.5 112.8 54.1 -3 -26.0
718 79.5 104.6 58.8 -3 -24.1
748 80.4 103.7 45 -4 -31.9
818 80.9 126.6 56.9 -4 -39.0
848 71.7 100 57.8 -4 -30.8
918 89.2 116.5 63.3 -4 -35.8
948 89.7 112 62.4 -4 -34.5
1018 85.2 105.5 66 -4 -32.5
Curious thing is that the wind chill was every bit as bad on the 4th January as the 9th because of the few degrees extra of frost.
Only one thing I would take serious issue with in all the posts on this and that is the comment about 'Winter Hillwalking'. There's no such thing. I'll quote from a piece I wrote 14 years ago - and every bit as relevant in this, the first seriously wintery start to winter in over a decade.
"A little advice to those who would 'climb, if they will'...
1) There is no such thing as winter hillwalking. Hillwalking is a summer pursuit (and in most Scottish summers, you need to be prepared for winter) IN WINTER THERE IS ONLY MOUNTAINEERING.
2) Know your limitations, and don't be afraid to say no. It ain't chicken .. it is just being realistic.
3) Turning back (indeed, not even getting out of the car) isn't an admission of defeat. Its wisdom and sound judgement coming to the fore.
4) Errors of judgement are the main apparent cause of accidents - knowledge, experience, and an ability to use both could be critical. As one of my own mentors frequently reminded me ....."The time to relax is in the pub, not at the top of the climb."
5) Individual responsibility is the name of the game. It is your life, your risk. Never abrogate that responsibility to others. Participate in the decisions, even if you feel like the dampener on enthusiasm. What you perceive as enthusiasm could be rashness. You could also spot someone else's mistake.
6) And finally a message for the experienced. Always keep on teaching. I was climbing at the weekend on the Aberdeen Sea Cliffs, and out of a habit born from much teaching of the less experienced, observed my partner mis-tie a figure of eight. "That's right ....Treat me as a novice" was my partner's response as I pointed out the error; but it was not resentment, more a wish that something he appreciated should continue."
Somehow this seemed to have a resonance to the discussions that have swirled around this post like the ice spicules did that day in Coire an-t-Sneachda.
I was out Ski Touring on Beinn Bhreac on Saturday and it was gusting at 50mph all afternoon, but it seemed almost benign compared to Jan 4th.
Bob Reid
21/1/08
In reply to Bob Reid:
Only just spotted this Bob. Thanks for the facts and figures and very good advice.
I was also in the Coire that day. I've been out in higher wind before and not felt like I felt that day. Somehow I think it was more than just the wind. A combination of the huge amount of spin drift coming in off the plateau and hurling around the Corie was quite something else. Not unusual for the Cairngorms, but a killer all the same. Thanks again to John Lyall for guiding us back.
Only just spotted this Bob. Thanks for the facts and figures and very good advice.
I was also in the Coire that day. I've been out in higher wind before and not felt like I felt that day. Somehow I think it was more than just the wind. A combination of the huge amount of spin drift coming in off the plateau and hurling around the Corie was quite something else. Not unusual for the Cairngorms, but a killer all the same. Thanks again to John Lyall for guiding us back.
In reply to Bob Reid:
I didn't realise there was any wind speed measuring equipment at the car park, what was the peak speed there then?
I didn't realise there was any wind speed measuring equipment at the car park, what was the peak speed there then?
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Winter Conditions
This Winter Conditions page gives a summary of what is being climbed at the moment, what is 'in' nick and what the prospects are...
16 Apr
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