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NEWS: Misleading Guidebook Leads Walker To His Death

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 Michael Ryan 19 Oct 2007
A "misleading" guide book on trekking in Snowdonia led a walker to his death although he followed a recommended route, an inquest was told yesterday.

Mountaineering experts called for the £3.95 book to be withdrawn from sale because, they said, it gave a "false representation" of a difficult climb....

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
 Caralynh 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mount Tryfan? And Snowdonia taking it's name from "Mount Snowdon". Hmmmmmm
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"As conditions became wetter they used a map for their descent down the North Ridge. “We had lost confidence in the book on the way up,” Mrs Parratt said."

A map isn't much more use on Tryfan either. There's just too much rock squeezed into such a small area. Looking through the latest Ogwen Valley MR call outs there have been plenty more recent (but less serious) ones on Tryan.
 Simon Caldwell 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
So the accident occurred on the descent (via the north ridge), after they had stopped using the book as they didn't trust it, but the book is to blame anyhow?

And there is an easy way up Tryfan, following paths all the way, via the col below Bristly Ridge.

Presumably it all makes sense but has been badly reported.
 hutchm 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It's an odd story. They were also carrying a map, and described in some press coverage as 'experienced' hillwalkers.
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> And there is an easy way up Tryfan, following paths all the way, via the col below Bristly Ridge.

The south ridge path? It can still be confusing in mist for people who don't know the mountain.

Here's the MR entry:
18:11
Team received a call from the wife of a man who had sustained a fall somewhere on the East Face. The cloud base was just at the lip of Cwm Tryfan but 22 Sqdn. did a fantastic job ferrying troops as high as they could. Due to the mist it was initially difficult to locate the casualty as the wife was unfamiliar with the terain. Once located the wife was walked down and their dog captured, abseiled off and evacuated. A long (in time) lower followed to recover the male to Cwm Tryfan and on to the hospital. It is suspected the man died of head injuries sustained during a short 20-30 foot fall.
05:10
 Caralynh 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

The book also seems strange - if it has a hard way and easy way up the mountain (as the article suggests) then surely the easy way would be to walk in from the west, up to Bwlch Tryfan, then up the South Ridge which is shorter and easier. But if that is the easy route up, I can't see any book then suggesting NR as a descent. Similarly, if the book suggests NR as ascent (not unreasonable), then surely it wouldn't descend that way, it would make far more sense to descent south then west.
banned profile 74 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: this is rubbish.when you are in the hills you take your life in your own hands and if you aren't prepared to do that you havn't a right to be up there in the first place.to blame a guidebook is rediculous!im sure in the front of the guide it probably has a disclaimer anyway.
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2007/10/19/walker-died-follo...

The section of the book described by Mr Lloyd read, “Heather Terrace is a rough but not steep route up the E (sic) side of Tryfan. After this a clamber up boulders brings you up to the summit.
“When clear of the boulders, all that is left is an easy valley descent which is mainly dry and passes through masses of heather.”

Editor Myrddin ap Dafydd said the couple got into trouble on Tryfan’s north ridge – an area the book warns is the most challenging of all the routes.
He said, “The couple decided on what that they thought was the direct route down in the bad weather, which was the north ridge.
“If you look at that route it’s described as the toughest walk in the book, with plenty of scrambles and that it shouldn’t be tried until you know you enjoy that kind of walk.”
In reply to hutchm: its a bit worrying. Surely people have some responsibility to make their own judgement about when a route is reasonable for them to follow and turn back if common sense tells them its too difficult? A guidebook can't have advance knowledge every individuals ability and experience level, and a walk that is perfectly easy for the averagely fit individual might be very difficult for a frail and elderly person, or a younger person who has never done a mountain route before. And people also need to take responsibility for making their own judgement calls on the weather, equipment and contingency plans for if it turns bad. You can hardly blame a guidebook writer if someone presses on through unsuitable conditions and then finds the route more difficult than anticipated.
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Fair point but the guide's description of Heather Terrace there sounds a bit lacking. It can be pretty difficult to locate if you've never been on it before. Presumably the route it suggests is along the terrace then up the south ridge.
In reply to Touching Centauri: well yes, quite possibly, but surely whenever you go walking on a route you havnt done before you use your own common sense as you go, and if things start looking beyond your ability you bail out. I'v certainly got myself into that position before, in the 12 Bens, but we didnt press on regardless, we took the decision that the walk was harder than we thought, we werent convinced we were on the right route, retreated and did something we were more prepared for. A guide book is just that - a guide to help you. It cant guarantee the mist wont descend or the path wont have been washed away. I do worry that people are so used to sanitised, safe experiences with warning notices and guard rails that they go into wilder situations with the expectation that there is still some kind of "no risk" guarantee attached.
 davidwright 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Touching Centauri: From that discription, which sounds like a preamble to the main text rather than a full route description. I would think they are recomending going up the heather terrace (which is easy to find, its only difficult to locate from its southern and upper end, there is a staircase at the other end). Then up the south ridge to the summit descending the south ridge and then either to the valley bottom or off to the west on the ogwen side.
 sutty 19 Oct 2007
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to sutty: Yes, but it can still be tricky to find, and indistinct at the north end. From the N Ridge you have to cut onto the face at the right place - very easy to end up above or below it. From Tryfan Bach you have to make a sharp right beyond the fence or else heather bash up steep ground. Both ways present problems to plenty of people.
 pigeonjim 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
"As conditions became wetter they used a map for their descent down the North Ridge. “We had lost confidence in the book on the way up,” Mrs Parratt said."

So why is its the books fault? They didnt follow it on the way back down Does anyone take responsibility for their own actions anymore?
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:
> (In reply to Touching Centauri) well yes, quite possibly, but surely whenever you go walking on a route you havnt done before you use your own common sense as you go,

You would hope so but so many idiots fail to use (or possess) any common sense. Tryfan seems to attract them! It doesn't even look like an easy mountain to climb from the road! More Ogwen MR call outs:

" 15:00
The couple were planning to climb the North ridge of Tryfan, but had no knowledge of the route or where it started. They parked at the walled carpark and started to ascend the area under the West face. At some point they could see across to the Canon rock on the North Ridge and decided to climb a gully line to reach it. They ascended the gully which became progressively steeper and more slippery, until they could neither go up nor down. They were both in precarious positions but managed to ring 999. 22Sqn were initially operational elsewhere so NW1 were asked to assist, whilst a hill party set off on foot. NW1 were unable to reach the pair, and when 22 Sqn arrived it was decided that they would have to be moved to a better area for winching. The hill party secured the casualties and then roped them up the gully to better ground. 22 Sqn then winched the pair and flew them to Oggie Base. Both casualties felt that they would not have been able to hold on for much longer, and both realised the serious implication of a fall from their position. A very lucky pair.
20:25"

" 19:15
The family had started to ascend the North Ridge of Tryfan but at some point the parents decided to turn back. It would seem that the children were already ahead of the parents at this time and continued up. After waiting at the road for an hour the father decided to go back up the mountain to find his children, and shortly afterwards some passers-by called the Rescue Team on behalf of the anxious mother.
Whilst the Team were gathering more information from the mother and preparing hill parties, the father and children were spotted on the lower part of the North Ridge. It transpired that some climbers had helped the children until their father arrived. The family were reunited and the Team carried on their training exercise.
20:00"
In reply to Touching Centauri: Walk up to the start of the north ridge proper then go round the corner. Not that hard surely?
 pigeonjim 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Touching Centauri:
WTF why would you let your weans go out of sight on a hill? That makes me angry that does EEGITS
Anonymous 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Touching Centauri:

"they ascended the gully which became progressively steeper and more slippery, until they could neither go up nor down. "

Incredible. So at no point did this couple (not the pair in the court case, I do realise), recognise they were on the point of getting into trouble until it was too late and they were completely cragfast. Maybe its the popular perception of our countryside as barely more than parkland thats the problem - people just dont believe you can get into trouble here because its not real wilderness.

(not anonymous - just opened up in firefox instead of ie.

Psycho_B!)
 Arjen 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"The couple, from Wallingford, Oxfordshire, followed a recommended route but despite becoming confused found their way to the summit, which was covered in low cloud. As conditions became wetter they used a map for their descent down the North Ridge. "We had lost confidence in the book on the way up," Mrs Parratt said."

A tragic accident, but imho a bit their own fault... you can SEE on a map that the NR is very steep and scrambly, so it would make lots more sense to go down the way you got up- especially if the weather turns bad. Also the NR must have been described in the book as being a bit sustained.

And going up Tryfan the easy face IS easy...
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Anonymous:
> (In reply to Touching Centauri)
>

> Incredible. So at no point did this couple (not the pair in the court case, I do realise), recognise they were on the point of getting into trouble until it was too late and they were completely cragfast. Maybe its the popular perception of our countryside as barely more than parkland thats the problem - people just dont believe you can get into trouble here because its not real wilderness.
>

Sounds about right. To be honest there have been many times on Tryfan I've had to help people out. The most common one is helping people avoid the N Tower by the traversing path and Nor Nor Gully.

I was there a few months ago when I heard voices in the top of North Gully. Two blokes came down and shouted over asking where the summit was. I directed them back up but they kept coming down. They then decided they didnt't fancy reclimbing N Gully. I've no idea why as they could have been on the top in 15mins. Instead they asked could they descend North Gully to Heather Terrace so I gave them detailed instruction to downclimb Little and North, then sat and watched t check they got down ok. I went up to the summit and then as I descended the South Ridge they were going up it...

Time before that I emerged onto Heather Terrace from Little Gully to be met by 4 guys. They asked could they get to the top that way and I said it was reasonably tricky (they didn't look like they knew what they were doing) to try and discourage them. Nevertheless they went up while I sat on the terrace and ate dinner. I could hear them struggling on the scramble and 10mins later they emerged back onto the terrace path.
 Simon Caldwell 19 Oct 2007
In reply to sutty:
> heather terrace is rather prominent, and has a sodding great footpath going up it.

I managed not to find it the first time I tried
 Mike Peacock 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
> (In reply to sutty)
> [...]
>
> I managed not to find it the first time I tried

Me too! I ended up climbing up the slimy start of Bastow Gully.
OP Michael Ryan 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Touching Centauri:
> (In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie)
> [...]
>
> You would hope so but so many idiots fail to use (or possess) any common sense.

They lack experience.
 Sean Kelly 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Well the fact that they recently bought a compass does suggest that they were far from experienced walkers, and surely Tryfan is not the ideal place to learn such skills. Indeed it would appear that they lacked many skills associated with the environment they were in and that can't be the fault of the book. As for finding the start of the Eastern Terrace from below is difficult enough in misty weather so it would be doubly difficult locating that descent from above. As for the title 'Tryfan the Easy Way' what about the 'Easy way up Everest' (ie South Col) I'll blame the many misleading books that detail that ascent if I find it difficult!
 hutchm 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Sean Kelly:

At least you'll stay clear of "Everest - The Hard Way", thanks to Bonners' excellent topo guide.
 Jon_Warner 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I fear it's the start of the sueing culture hitting climbing.. how long before someone tries to file a suit against guidebooks because they dont find the "easy but bold" slab "easy" or when they hit the seabed on an S0 dws?
 gingerkate 19 Oct 2007
What do people think of this quote from/about the man who is blaming the book?

'The policeman also questioned whether books of this type should remain on sale.

He said, “They bought the book for £3.75 and probably saw it as a good buy. But the sale of such material in popular Snowdonia shops must be challenged. I believe the book was an inappropriate choice and it was so misleading it was impossible to follow.”'

That sounds to me as though he is opposing more than this one particular guide.

 earlsdonwhu 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Interestingly, The Times IIRC had their picture captioned MT TRYPHAN
 Caralynh 19 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

LOL better not sell any guidebooks or maps then, just in case someone may do sthg too hard for them!
 The Crow 19 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:
> What do people think of this quote from/about the man who is blaming the book?

The MR leader quoted has clearly lost the plot and although the police have some authority in interpreting criminal law I'm not aware that simply being a policeman qualifies you to speak for mountain risk.

The coroners decision was fine the press have just jumped on a couple of controversial witness statements as they so often do.
 gingerkate 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Caralynr:
I like using small scrambling guides ... I don't rely on them. Pretty much every hillwalking book I've ever read has a bit at the front saying 'don't rely on this, take a map, know how to use a compass, use your head' etc etc... that's how they have to be used, not relied on.

I wouldn't like such guides to be lost to us all. It's tragic that this has happened, but little guidebooks that you can use for ideas and to supplement your map ... to me, they have their place.

rich 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: what a real shame

i don't think i've ever descended the north ridge the same way twice to be honest - it's hardly intuitive even though i'm not the best at direction and remembering routes and all of that - last time i opted to downclimb a few feet of about severe (with an big grassy landing) rather than walk back to where i'd gone 'wrong' and i was too far west if anything

straying onto the east face in mist would be horrible for many many people - i took my brother around tryfan and bristly this year and while he was glad he did it it was only in retrospect
 Caralynh 19 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

I totally agree with you, and use them as well. What I meant was that by someone saying the book shouldn't have been available, well, where do you stop? Not sell maps in case people can't read them and get lost?!
 gingerkate 19 Oct 2007
In reply to The Crow:
They seem to have decided that as he's MR and a policeman as well, his word goes.
 gingerkate 19 Oct 2007
In reply to Caralynr:
I understood you, and was agreeing... where would it stop?
 sutty 19 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

He may be a MR and DI but he is still an idiot for saying the book should be withdrawn, if that is so must every other walking guide to the mountains.

I wonder which paper he gets where he lives, and if they have a letters page?

Ooh, Mountain rescue have feedback pages don't they/
 The Crow 19 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

Ooops I didn't pick up that it was the same guy. I did wonder why a policeman was commenting at he inquest though?
 gingerkate 19 Oct 2007
In reply to sutty:
The thing is, if you're writing any sort of book about doing something potentially dangerous, you generally put in warnings, not to do so would be, perhaps, a dereliction of duty. But from the second link posted, that warning stuff was included, where it always is, at the front of the book. You can't expect writers/publishers to put a fresh warning of danger on every page. You do your best to not give a false impression of security, but in the end everyone is responsible for theirself.
banned profile 74 20 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate: it said in one of the reports that they bought the guide then a map and a compass.then it said they were experienced hillwalkers.if they were experienced hill walkers wouldnt they already have a compass?
basically a case of death by missadventure,they cant blame the guide for not being prepared.the mountains are a dangerous place with or without a guide
 gingerkate 20 Oct 2007
In reply to beastofackworth:
> if they were experienced hill walkers wouldnt they already have a compass?

I thought that. And then I thought, 'well maybe they were just getting a new compass'... but if it was that, it'd not be relevant to the story. So perhaps they really were very inexperienced.

 sutty 20 Oct 2007
In reply to beastofackworth:

Sometimes you lose your compass, mine is somewhere in here but not been used for maybe 15 years so if I needed one I would get one, and then try to remember mag variation.;-(

Actually, you only need that when micro navigating or in difficult conditions. After driving from Germany to Calais with no maps and only rough idea of route and keeping the sun in roughly the right position rough navigation is often enough. Even having seen the weather charts on TV in the morning may be enough to navigate with a fair degree of accuracy on moorland, and even some rounded hills though not all of them near the coast.
banned profile 74 20 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate: see thing is ive been climbing 13 years,have done ben nevis sevreal times,scafell a few times,snowdon by pig and miners several times,snowdon horseshoe(onsight lol),lliwedd twice(up the steep bit climbing),im ok with map and compass and i would say im still an inexperienced hillwalker.
think its a case that some people do a few hills and think they know what they are doing
 gingerkate 20 Oct 2007
In reply to beastofackworth:
Yes, I know what you mean.

Seems to me that as:
i) They were not using the book when the accident happened,
ii) The book apparently explicitly states that the way they came down is the hardest way,
iii) The book also apparently states that one should retreat if mist descends,
iv) The book doesn't apparently doesn't recommend that route (or any Tryfan route) for 'inexperienced climbers',

then the accident wasn't due to the book.
Doesn't mean the book isn't a poor one... I've not seen the book so wouldn't know. Maybe the maps are poor, as stated. I still don't see that the book led him to his death, it actually advised against what they did.

This link has a few more details (and an even more debatable header):
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2007/10/19/walker-lured-to...
 Ybot Htulk 20 Oct 2007
In reply to beastofackworth:

Read some of the posts on this but not all.

When you bang your head on a cupboard door is not your first reaction to hit the door in anger?

They had a tragic day. They got lost, it was misty and wet and then one of them fell to his death!

Id probably want to blame something too.

Not saying its right though
 gingerkate 20 Oct 2007
In reply to Toby Kluth:
I don't mind her blaming the book, I agree with you, when stuff like that happens it's very normal to want to find someone to blame.

But unless there's more to this than I've read, I feel on a very different wavelength to the MR guy. But then, I'm not the one who's had to carry/fly some poor broken body off a mountain ... maybe it's reasonable to expect MR people to sound off at cheap guides they see as luring insufficiently experienced people up mountains?
banned profile 74 20 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate: i decked from the top roof on remergence while soling,there was no warning on the page saying soling this route was dangerous-so can i sue the guidebook because it didnt say the crux was the highest bit?lol
 Trangia 20 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"Easy" is a very subjective word. If the text quoted is all there is, it's very sparce. I agree with others hitting Heather Terrace right can be problematicle. I've been up loads of times, but it always seems different and I have missed it once and found myself above it!

It is difficult to comment without reading the guide book including any pre-amble, it's also difficult to put myself into the shoes (or boots) of someone being on Tryfan for the first time without any knowledge of the topography, but whilst I, and as seems most of the contributers here, find the ascent via HT to the col followed by the south ridge "easy", I have been with novices who have been a bit phased by the scrambling and needed re-assuring.

A very common mistake made by novice scramblers is to try and bye-pass a rock step on the route in an attempt to find something "easier". The more they do this the more off route they get, until suddenly they are in real trouble. I'm sure you've all been with inexperienced people in you're party who have said "Isn't there an easier way round this?" and you have had to use firmness backed by a confident and encouraging manner to persuade them to stick to the route. Then when they do it they then suprise themselves at how easy it in fact is.

It said that this couple were experienced hill walkers but what does that mean? The Malvern Hills? The South Downs?

I think that any walking guide book needs to be aimed at the relatively inexperienced when it uses words like "easy". It may be the easiest way up, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is not difficult or "challenging" for some. A good guide book's pre-amble should qualify and make it clear what it means by "easy" in this context.

 Bruce Hooker 20 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I just read the article and I find it hard to see why the book should be withdrawn... or if it should than the same would apply to any book that encourages people to visit the hills. The quotes in the story are a little exaggerated too, there are easy ways of getting up and down Tryfan, I walked up with the family once when the kids were small and we were all in welly boots. The path up from the road is quite easy and one can wonder down to the SW on an even easier path...

Having said this inexperienced walkers could well get in difficulty, especially in the mist, and get on to steeper more dangerous bits, but this can hardly be blamed on the book.
mike swann 20 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate: It does say in that report that they "would have tried to climb Tryfan anyway" but used the book to find the easiest way. No reason there to blame the book.
In reply to Trangia:

FAZED!!

Phased = "caused to happen at intervals", or something similar.

Fazed = "confused"

jcm
 Tonyfryer 20 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

That other article quotes the unfortunate lady with the following

"She said they would probably have tried to go up Tryfan anyway because it was alongside the main road"

Well seems a good enough reason to me?

I do feel sorry for her and the relatives in this tragic accident however that is all it is "A tragic accident"

They went up the easy way yet tried to descend the hard way, the map they were using (if they were using it right) showed it was going to be a hard descent, the book said it was a hard descent. The terrain suggests when climbing down that it was too hard for their ability. Surely this is a point where help is called?

Not sure the MR guy should be commenting on the book? This could lead to a precident of MR getting more politically involved? Only bad for both MR and for mountain activities.

Reminds me of a girl at work who knew some people who died in the Alps. They went up high with minimum kit and died of exposure in sudden snow storm. They blamed the weather reports? Tragic but blame lies with the person.





gollancz 21 Oct 2007
Hmm.....Just did Tryfan again on Thursday after a long time away from Snowdonia. Humbly, I would have to say I am a very experienced hiker with an active fear of heights. I have cr*pped myself on many of the greatest mountain ranges on earth.

I reckon;
1: I have never climbed Tryfan the same way twice. It is a maze of rock and contours and I just point up and try to keep as 'direct' as possible, but there is simply hundreds of variations on both North and South ridges.

2: In mist, I wouldn't rely on my (reasonable) navigational skills to find HT, North Ridge, Canon, South ridge or just about any other feature on the mountain. Imagine it yourself....white-out with 10 ft. visibility. Map virtually useless in describing the detailed topography of the rock. Very easy to get off route and find yourself in trouble even on easy routes like South Ridge.

3: As someone who does not scramble much, I know how rapidly and completely my confidence can dissolve if things get even mildly tricky. Hard to understand if you are a climber, but it's an irrational fear normally unrelated to the actual level of danger but can leave me completely unable to climb and definitely unable to judge slopes or scrambles objectively and make decisions accordingly. Easier mountains than Tryfan have managed to do this to me.

So my take on this unfortunate accident is;
A: First bad decision - trying tryfan in mist when clearly not experienced enough to realise that it would be difficult even for a more experienced party.

B: Mist made South Ridge trickier at least mentally with possibility that they drifted off route making it harder technically as well.

C: Really bad decision NOT to retreat the route they came up, probably becuase it scared them because of B above.

D: Again, bad decision not to retreat from the NR at first difficulties which frankly should have been 60 secs in when they reached the notch or immediately thereafter when the route drops rapdily.

E: And then there was bad luck. We all make bad decisions and get away with it. They weren't lucky enough to meet someone else who would have pointed them down the south ridge. they weren't lucky enough to have bumbled their way down the north scaring themselves silly but surviving, etc. etc.

Literally hundreds of people climb Tryfan every weekend with and without guidebooks. What killed this unfortunate man was poor decisions resulting from lack of experience and bad luck.

Guidebooks always have to be read with care. But this also comes with experience. Any experienced hiker knows that terms like EASY are relative. Crib Goch was easy for the 10-year old who overtook me in July....but not for me. You need to judge routes carefully for yourself....actively judge them as you go and make decisions accordingly. The worst in a series of bad decisions was not to turn back and descend by the South Ridge. RETREAT is almost always the best option, particularly for the inexperienced where their fear of the route just ascended probably far exceeded the actual danger.




 icnoble 21 Oct 2007
In reply to gollancz: A very good post
gollancz 21 Oct 2007
Thank you!
I've just had an inspired thought. the article makes great play of that fact that the offending guidebook was £3.95. Why not simply price it at £23.95 which I am sure would result in large numbers of people dying on Tryfan with no guidebook to blame. Job done.
 Trangia 21 Oct 2007
In reply to gollancz:
> Thank you!
> I've just had an inspired thought. the article makes great play of that fact that the offending guidebook was £3.95. Why not simply price it at £23.95 which I am sure would result in large numbers of people dying on Tryfan with no guidebook to blame. Job done.


LOL!
 steveriley 23 Oct 2007
I'd be surprised if almost everyone on here who's posted hasn't made a bad judgment call at some point, either on a route or on the hill. I know I have. For most of us it ends with a tall story in the pub. 20-20 hindsight's a terrific thing though.
 Trangia 23 Oct 2007
In reply to steveri:

Climbing folklore is rich with epics.
 sutty 23 Oct 2007
In reply to steveri:

Pardon me, some of us are perfect, that bivvi on a rognon on a glacier was planned so we could see our tent half a mile away, and abseiling in the dark and feeling around on ledges for the next abseil ring on a Dolomite summit when you have no torch is part of the character forming course.

Ending up in Eskdale when on a gentle stroll up the Duddon may have been just overexuberance to see what was over that hill, not intended as a survival course in winter where others died a mile away of exposure.

Bad judgment, not I.
 graeme jackson 23 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I don't feel qualified to comment on the accident but this comment had me shaking my head...

"Detective Inspector Gerwyn Lloyd, of Ogwen Valley Mountain Rescue Team, said: "There is no easy way up Tryfan. It is a serious mountain, a mountaineering mountain, and there are no paths on it.."

I've climbed Tryfan's east face a few times and have never had a problem following the well worn PATH down the south ridge then either into cwm tryfan or down to llyn bochlwyd.
 gingerkate 23 Oct 2007
In reply to steveri:
> I'd be surprised if almost everyone on here who's posted hasn't made a bad judgment call

It's because I've made plenty of my own bad judgment calls that I so strongly object to a guidebook writer being vilified on such tenuous evidence that his guidebook had anything at all to do with this poor guy dying.
ExplorerOL13 23 Oct 2007
In reply to Graeme Jackson:

I'm always very wary of believing anything that I read or hear in the media - and that's on just about any topic - unless its a specialist writing on their own subject. If it's a climber writing on a climbing topic or a scientist writing on a science topic that's fine but otherwise it usually ends up with inaccuracies, large or small.

Let's be careful about judging any of the players in this unfortunate saga through the filter of the media - go back to original sources if you want the truth or something like it. Even apparently straightforward quotes can have their meaning turned on their head by being taken out of context.

Alan
Jennifer Parratt 23 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thank you Alan. My quotes have been misinterpreted, as have those of us who were at the inquest.

To set the record straight:

1: the mountain was not covered in mist when we started, we could even see the summit. In fact we only really noticed the mist once at the summit.
2: we DID NOT descend via the North Ridge, as reported. We attempted to follow the guide via the Heather Terrace on both ascent and descent (we had our dog with us too). We did not find the Heather Terrace (while following the guide) and had to ASCEND via the North Ridge. We were searching for the Heather Terrace (via the guide) on the descent when Chris fell.
3: 'experience' is different to everyone. However, we had climbed, walked and scrambled in Wales (yes, in Snowdonia), in England and in France.
4: The guide led us the wrong way (i challenge all of you who have posted to try to follow the guide). However it was our choice, thus our responsibility, to follow that route. We knew the dangers of the mountains. We are not suing the publisher.
5: I only hope that the press coverage this case has raised, however painful it has been, will help to promote certification of mountain guidebooks. There are those less experienced than ourselves who will rely on them, and i would not like them to experience what i have.

I hope this clarifies the case for you all.

Jennifer Parratt
 gingerkate 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Jennifer Parratt:

Thank you for posting and setting us all straight. I apologise if our discussion has hurt you further; we have a tendency to forget who may be reading. My sympathies to you and the rest of Christopher's family.
I'm very sorry.
 Doug 24 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate: Good to get the facts, but "to promote certification of mountain guidebooks" sounds a bit worrying - who is going to do this ? on what criteria ?
 gingerkate 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Doug:
I don't know. In my (very limited) experience, the current situation is that publishers may attempt to get round the possibility of them being sued for having dangerously misleading information in their books, by including a clause in the contract which puts it all onto the writer. ie a clause that says, if there's something wrong, and we get sued, you pick up the bill. That might seem fair enough, but the writer often isn't in the position of having total control over what gets in a book, and what doesn't ... plus writers are only human too... with the best will in the world, they will make mistakes. So I think if publishers had a code of practise that said that whenever a book included information that was potentially dangerous, they'd get the book proof read by someone knowledgeable in the subject, that might be an idea.
 Trangia 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

In a nutshell doesn't the problem (if indeed there is really one) revolve around the subjective interpretation of the word "easy"? Maybe guide books should avoid using this word completely and grade scrambles/walks in ascending order of "difficulty"?
 gingerkate 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Trangia:
I don't think it was that, from Jennifer's post? Sounded more as though the book has a mistake in the directions.

OP Michael Ryan 24 Oct 2007
Most guidebooks have inaccuracies, especially climbing guidebooks; we are almost used to it.

I've used guidebooks in the Sierra Nevada of California that were/are riddled with errors, some navigational.

Maps, even OS maps, can be wrong. This is taught on Mountain Leader courses.

Mick
OP Michael Ryan 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Of course many people do put there complete and utter trust in the written word and in maps.
 gingerkate 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
It'd be impossible to produce a climbing guidebook with no errors ... there's just such a huge density of information in one.
 Trangia 24 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

Guide book interpretation is an art form in its own right.

From the 1950 Climbers Club guide book to Pavey Ark - Bennison's Chimney "..will be enjoyed only by the nerveless devotee of vertical grass climbing..."
 gingerkate 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Trangia:
On the subject of the use of the word 'easy'... it definitely is a relative term. I notice there's a thread at the moment, 'Easy Alpine solo routes'... everyone knows what he means. I don't think you can iron it out of guidebooks, like many other words, its meaning depends very much on context.
Paul Bond 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Isn,t this like blaming the Highway Code for a Raod Accident? Guiidebooks (even the best) are just like maps are as up to date as the day the author visited the site and by their very nature subjective. If I place protection in the way explained in UKML book but it zips out, Do I sue UKML?
As ever sympathy to those affected by the accident.
In reply to gingerkate:
> I don't know. In my (very limited) experience, the current situation is that publishers may attempt to get round the possibility of them being sued for having dangerously misleading information in their books, by including a clause in the contract which puts it all onto the writer. ...

It is my understanding that these clauses, contracts and disclaimers have very little weight if actually tested in law, however, I don't know of a single case in the UK outdoor guidebook industry where this has been tested so it is all hypothetical anyway.

Alan
 gingerkate 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Have there been any attempts to sue guidebook writers/publishers in any other countries?
Anonymous 24 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

I can remember Ted and Hilde who used to run Glenbrittle hostel used to say that a German guidebook used to refer to the mountains on Skye being "of no great consequence" and that it caused quite a few problems.
 Martin W 24 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

> from Jennifer's post ... Sounded more as though the book has a mistake in the directions.

The phrase: "The guide led us the wrong way," would seem to suggest that. However, the words following that: "i challenge all of you who have posted to try to follow the guide," tends to suggest rather that the guide is confusing or difficult to follow. The Daily Post news story identifies the book in question as "Walks in the Snowdonia Mountains" by Don Hinson. Someone who knows the area might be able to judge whether the book is actually wrong or just unclear. According to Amazon, the book was first published in 1997 and is now in its third edition. The book has been on the market for ten years. Maybe the local MRT is getting fed up of continually having to fetch people off Tryfan because this book had led them astray?

I've made navigational mistakes in the hills myself. On one memorable occasion I managed to go up the wrong valley despite stopping to check guide book, map and compass several times. I convinced myself that what I saw in front of me matched the guide book description simply because I didn't think that what was in fact the correct route "looked right". The decisions taken when you realise that you are off your intended route are often the most important ones.

As for the idea of certification of mountain guidebooks: basically, I'm not in favour. Would it also apply to, for example, newspaper and magazine articles like the Scotsman's "Walk of the Week"? This not infrequently recommends routes on "proper" hills like the Buachaille: http://living.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1622&id=1095022007 and Ben Vorlich: http://living.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1622&id=1341192007 ("The steep drops at the top of Ben Vorlich make it a dangerous place in high winds and poor visibility, so care should be taken.") Even smaller hills like Stac Pollaidh: http://living.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1622&id=570332007 while not strenuous, can nonetheless require care in places.
 steveriley 24 Oct 2007
Thanks for stopping by to clarify, Jennifer. Sorry for your loss.
 Rob Naylor 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Doug:
> (In reply to gingerkate) Good to get the facts, but "to promote certification of mountain guidebooks" sounds a bit worrying - who is going to do this ? on what criteria ?

Yes, that was the point in her post that jumped out at me. I was going to reply to that effect, but didn't feel happy about doing it.

It's down to self-reliance again. You look at a guide and *judge for yourself* whether it's detailed enough for your purposes, has clear enough diagrams, etc.
In reply to gingerkate:
> Have there been any attempts to sue guidebook writers/publishers in any other countries?

I believe there may have been cases in the States although I have no knowledge of any that are directly involved with an accident.

Someone with much more legal expertise than me once explained how the system would work if such a case happened here. Although I may now be misinterpreting their words, the impression I got was that the party pursuing the action would aim for the larger institutions first - like landowners. These defendants would then try and find co-defendants whom they could pass (some of) the buck onto, which might include publishers/writers of books. All very hypothetical.

The bottom line though was that his advice was don't include a disclaimer since that might make a situation slightly worse. This is similar to the 'beware of the dog' sign being an acknowledgement that your dog may attack someone. ie. you are aware of the danger and did nothing about it! Trying to eschew your responsibility to have good information by having a disclaimer saying, 'it's your fault if you get hurt', can be interpreted in this way.

Alan
 Burns 24 Oct 2007
Blimey, has everyone forgotten John Lisle's thread about commenting on incidents involving the deaths of those involved?
 gingerkate 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Burns:
No, John Lisle's thread was about people hijacking threads announcing deaths with pontifications and criticism. This thread is in response to a news item. Those involved in this tragedy have said that they want mountain guidebooks to be certified. We can ignore that, or we can discuss it. If people want the law changed, there's inevitably going to be discussion.

 Burns 24 Oct 2007
In reply to gingerkate:

Yeah, fair enough, you're right there. Its a thin line though.
adey 24 Oct 2007
In reply to Doug: I agree you cant certificate guidebooks as one persons easy is another persons desperate.
Mountaineering is dangerous thats why its fun it gets us away from the sanitised normal world,But you HAVE to take responsibility for your own actions and use common sence if it feels bad back off.A great example of this is the "Short walk with Whillans" chapter in Tom Pateys book one mans mountains.
One very amusing one in the Ogwen rescue book is a couple who were rescued on Tryfan thinking they were on Snowdon!! wonder which guide they were reading.

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