Major New Feature - UKC Logbook

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We've just introduced a major new feature on UKClimbing - http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/

The idea behind Logbook is simple, the system itself is incredibly sophisticated. Using our database of routes, you can record all your ascents, who you did them with and in what style. You can link them to your own photo gallery, or to the 25,000+ photos on the UKClimbing.com photo gallery. You can link to your partner’s logbook, you can make your logbook public or keep it private and you can even create a wishlist of routes.

The Route Database
At present there 30,000+ routes in the UKClimbing.com Logbook database and more are being added everyday. We are not just restricting it to UK routes though since there are already many routes from European destinations covered by Rockfax guidebooks. If the route doesn’t exist in the system then you can easily add it. This is the ultimate ticklist of routes and it will be accessible and searchable by anyone who is a registered user at UKClimbing.com.
You'll need to be logged in as a registered user, but you don't need to do anything else - just start using the logbook to record your routes and boulder problems.

Become a Crag Moderator
The route database isn’t yet complete and probably never will be. If a route isn’t in the system then you can just add it but why not consider becoming a crag moderator? Each crag moderator becomes responsible for a crag or group of crags. They look after the data by adding missing routes (in bulk upload or individually), responding to comments, and keeping the routes in the correct order. They can even add their own route descriptions and generally build up a more complete database. To do this though a crag moderator needs local knowledge and a certain amount of devotion to the cause, however once the system is running, we don’t anticpate it being a very time-consuming job. We can’t offer anything except our gratitude for people who do this but it will make the system much better with more moderators to tackle the huge job of enhancing and maintaining the data.

The logbook system is a free service and will remain afree service so you will always have free access to your data.

Beta Test
The system has been tested and all the technical bits work correctly, however we are still calling it a ‘beta version’ just so that people know that it may not be perfect yet. If you find any problems then let us know so that we can correct it.

If you have any thoughts on Logbook, add them to this thread.

Logbook Help Page - http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/help.html

Alan James - UKC
In reply to Alan James - UKC: I'd just like to say a big thank you to the team of users who have been secretly testing the Logbooks system for the past month. We've had hundreds of bug reports and suggestions, and already the system is a huge improvement over what it was a month ago

Cheers!

One thing that I didn't mention above about crag moderators is that, owing to technical considerations about the way the database works, we aren't able to let anyone other than ourselves moderate crags covered by Rockfax guidebooks. This is because there is a parallel database on the Rockfax site which and we haven't yet done the technical work required to synchronise them.

Alan
 Chris the Tall 02 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
In which case can I put in a request that you update the Peak Limestone Database - Intake only has the routes in the guide, not the mini-guide and there are several omissions at the upper tier at Horseshoe

In particular there was one route over the left hand side that gets a star but is worth a couple of black spots !! And I've been desperate to vent my spleen about it since May !
 sutty 03 Dec 2005
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Nick. having been in one of these things in the past why not ask for volunteeers for these beta tests, you would then have people who wish to help yet could select the ones you thought would be helpful and not be pillocks. just an idea for any further improvements/alterations in the future.
 'Hilda' 03 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Hi,

Trying to add a climb to the list - it wont let me (says its not in the database) but checked spelling on Rockfax and its right!

Is it a problem with the logbook or me?
In reply to 'Hilda': There was a problem this morning that was stopping the whole logbooks system working at all, but it is now fixed.

Please try again, and if you are still having problems, please email me, with the name of the route, etc.

Cheers
 SonyaD 03 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Have just done my logbook. What a fantastic idea! I especially like the 'graph' page. Well done you guys!
In reply to sutty:
> Nick. having been in one of these things in the past why not ask for volunteeers for these beta tests, you would then have people who wish to help yet could select the ones you thought would be helpful and not be pillocks. just an idea for any further improvements/alterations in the future.

We have been testing with about 30 or so regular users for about 3 weeks. They have provided some very useful feedback which has mostly been implemented, however the system is incredibly complicated so there will certainly be more problems in the future.

Alan
 Mark Collins 03 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Have you seen this:
www.adventurehut.com
In reply to Mark Collins: Yes, but they've been running that site for over 5 years and it still only has 5000 climbs in the UK, and a few hundred users. Doesn't look like they have changed the site since 2001!
karl walton 03 Dec 2005
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Is there any way / chance of exporting or displaying this data in the same format as the SPA log book, I imagine this would encourage a lot of people to use this feature, and make life a lot easier too.
In reply to karl walton: Yes, we've got that idea on the ToDo list. The more people ask for a feature, the more likely we'll add it quickly.

Cheers
 craig h 03 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

To be honest I though this to be a good idea initially, still do if all you use is a Rockfax guide. I tend to visit crags not covered by the Rockfax guide or only have a partial representation of the routes.

My problem is I have to load all the info about what I’ve done into the database on crags not currently represented by Rockfax Guides. I know the guides are excellent and are definitive for some areas (thanks for that) and this info is useful for people using the site, but like a supermarket loyalty card the logbook gives you the info on which routes are climbed the most on each crag, feed back on current grading, quality etc.

I would not like to see definitive guide books not being printed anymore due to them not being cost effective as the best has already been published, if crags and routes are selectively chosen by however for the quality routes and venues, I can see this happening unfortunately. The UKC logbook is potentially a tool to allow this to happen. For the time being I shall not use it myself as most places I visit are not listed in current Rockfax guides, but will watch with interest.

Just my feelings at the moment having tried the logbook without submitting anything. Enjoy the guides and think they give many climbers hours of pleasure, but just wonder how the info gained through the logbooks might be used? If used at all.
In reply to craig h:

Thanks for your comments Craig.

Firstly I think I should point out that there are now over 31,000 routes in the database and only 17,000 of those came from the Rockfax database , so there are currently 14,000 routes in the database that aren't covered by a Rockfax guide and I expect that in 6 months time this figure will have doubled.

Another point you need to keep in mind is that UKC and Rockfax are separate companies. Logbook is not a Rockfax production and the only reason some Rockfax data is used is because I am involved with both companies and I have allowed this.

I can't see a way that Logbook will impact on the viability of definitive guides and I would be interested to hear how you think it might do. It will be a very useful tool for all guidebook writers since the data that we gather will be public and available for anyone to see - votes, comments and the stats about ascents. If it is the underlying raw data that you are worried about then I can assure you that it is not the intention of UKC to go into guidebook production using these route lists and occasional descriptions. Gathering this sort of information would represent about 1% of the effort needed to produce a guidebook from scratch anyway.

Alan
 sutty 04 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

As you well know Alan, some people think of Rockfax as the devils spawn, the exact words by TG at the Kendal film festival two years ago. This means they still do not trust you not to use these as bases for new guides, cherry picking the best areas.
Well you do drag the others into the 21st century and have made all guidebook writers look hard at the way they do things with them.
As you say, it will be in the public domain, what would you do if I decided to write a new book using the data in the logbooks? It does not really belong to you, only the people who enter stuff in it as the authors.
 John2 04 Dec 2005
In reply to sutty: 'As you well know Alan, some people think of Rockfax as the devils spawn'

Not everyone is so hidebound. I met the author of an excellent CC guide in Pembroke in the summer, paying his first ever visit to that area. He freely admitted that the Rockfax guide was superior to the CC guide for the crags that it covered.
 Mark Collins 04 Dec 2005
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Agreed, and the data duplication problems with that site seem to have been addressed with your approach, I'm just wondering if I can be arsed changing over, not that my logs any great shakes, maybe I'll just start again. Your approach will certainly be more high profile/accessible to UK Climbers and therefore attract more users than adventurehut, but I will miss the internationalness of that site. Thanks for this feature I think it will be a great success.
In reply to sutty:
> As you well know Alan, some people think of Rockfax as the devils spawn, the exact words by TG at the Kendal film festival two years ago. This means they still do not trust you not to use these as bases for new guides, cherry picking the best areas.

There is a lot more to writing guides than a list of routes and grades - that would take and afternoon's work, a guide takes 6 months. Logbook data back end provides little of use to guidebook writers, the front end data is incredibly useful but it is public and available for all to use.

Additionally, we have more than enough work keeping our titles going as anyone who wants a Mallorca, El Chorro or Pembroke print guide will know - all 3 guaranteed sellers that we have all the data and illustrations for that we still don't have time to publish.

That TG comment says a lot more about him than it does about me.

> As you say, it will be in the public domain, what would you do if I decided to write a new book using the data in the logbooks? It does not really belong to you, only the people who enter stuff in it as the authors.

This wouldn't concern me in the slightest since I know what it takes to produce a guidebook. Anyone who tried what you suggest would have completed about 1% of what is necessary to produce a finished book.

Alan
In reply to Mark Collins:
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC) Agreed, and the data duplication problems with that site seem to have been addressed with your approach, I'm just wondering if I can be arsed changing over, not that my logs any great shakes, maybe I'll just start again. Your approach will certainly be more high profile/accessible to UK Climbers and therefore attract more users than adventurehut, but I will miss the internationalness of that site. Thanks for this feature I think it will be a great success.

Can you export your ticks from AdventureHut? If so then we can import log files in several different formats.

Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC: We're off to a flying start with the logbooks system Over 1700 climbs added to peoples logbooks in the last 24 hours, and Sunday is normally a quiet day for UKC!
 sutty 04 Dec 2005
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Lots of people were probably sat around due to the crap weather in some places. Now have a pair of muddy boots after walking round some local paths.
In reply to Mark Collins:
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC) ... Your approach will certainly be more high profile/accessible to UK Climbers and therefore attract more users than adventurehut, but I will miss the internationalness of that site.


We're adding countries and "regions" (climbing regions, more like) within different countries at a rate of knots, so the internationalness of this site is only going to be limited by the interna... can't be bothered to type it.. of its users who want to log their climbs. Someone's been putting in the very obvious Yosemite crags (I might put in Half Dome myself). If you've been abroad then you'll want to log something. There aren't any obvious restrictions at present.
 UKB Shark 04 Dec 2005
In reply to Charles Arthur - UKC:

You anticipated my post on how to record routes done abroad.

Looking forward to completing my 2005 list - I kept a comprehensive list from 83 to about 87 but after that its been a succession of half arsed scribbles which I have mainly lost.
 AlisonC 05 Dec 2005
In reply to Charles Arthur - UKC: I'm in the process of adding crags in Ariege, SW France.

I have a few questions actually.

1. How do I add guidebook details after the crag details have already been entered? I've been to the update crag details page but it isn't clear how to do it.

2. I think you need an extra field in the database, for the "sector" of the crag, especially for larger crags. I've entered details for Calames, our major local crag, but as there are 200+ routes it's going to be very confusing to have them all under just the crag name.

3. Is is permitted to enter a link to an on-line topo of the crag?
In reply to AlisonC:
> 1. How do I add guidebook details after the crag details have already been entered? I've been to the update crag details page but it isn't clear how to do it.

At the moment you have to wait for us to add the new guidebook into the system, which can take a day or two. At some point we'll probably improve this so that you can add a guidebook immediately.

> 2. I think you need an extra field in the database, for the "sector" of the crag, especially for larger crags. I've entered details for Calames, our major local crag, but as there are 200+ routes it's going to be very confusing to have them all under just the crag name.

We decided not to use the crag/sector/route system because it is extra work when adding routes and we want it to be as quick and easy as possible. For very large crags (like Stanage) we've created a separate crag entry for each well-known sector. eg, "Stanage (High Neb)".

I'd do that if there is an obvious place to split the crag, and if you've got more than 200 or 300 routes in a crag. But don't bother if each sector is going to be small.

> 3. Is is permitted to enter a link to an on-line topo of the crag?

Yes, definitely, just put it in the crag notes field.

Thanks for all the crags & routes you've entered so far. Good job!

Cheers
 AlisonC 05 Dec 2005
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
> At the moment you have to wait for us to add the new guidebook into the system

Probably a stupid question but how do I give you the guidebook details - should I just email them to the logbook editor?

> We decided not to use the crag/sector/route system [...] > I'd do that if there is an obvious place to split the crag

From now on I will enter crag name and sector as you suggest. But where I have already entered the crag name, without specifying the sector, is it possible to go back and add the sector name later? I am moderator for the crag in question (which has 200+ routes so definitely needs to be split into sectors).
 AlisonC 05 Dec 2005
In reply to AlisonC: Yet another question - I'm keeping you guys on your toes this morning

Would it be possible to update the drop-down list of countries/ counties/ regions? It would be helpful to have other areas of France listed, even if they are not very specific (for eg France - South West).
In reply to AlisonC:
> Probably a stupid question but how do I give you the guidebook details - should I just email them to the logbook editor?

There is a form which is linked to the upload new crag page - http://www.ukclimbing.com/databases/crags/newgbk.html

> From now on I will enter crag name and sector as you suggest. But where I have already entered the crag name, without specifying the sector, is it possible to go back and add the sector name later?

I think you need to submit this for it to be okay'ed by us - Nick will confirm.

What might be good is if you could come up with a set of general areas for France and I will add these to the pull-down.

Alan
 AlisonC 05 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
> What might be good is if you could come up with a set of general areas for France and I will add these to the pull-down.

You could use the names of the French "departements" (these are a bit like counties). There are a lot of them, but you won't have to add them all, because many don't have anything worth climbing. Off the top of my head, a starting list might include the following southern France departements:

France - Gard
France - Herault
France - Bouches du Rhone
France - Vaucluse
France - Var
France - Ariege
France - Aude
France - Hautes Pyrenees
France - Pyrenees Atlantiques

I can provide a fuller list if you want.

Alternatively you could use the French regional names - eg:

France - Languedoc Roussillon
France - Midi-Pyrenees
France - Rhone-Alpes

I think there are about 12-14 regions (can come up with the full list if necessary), but they are very large, so not very helpful to someone trying to locate a climbing venue.

Let me know what you think.
 craig h 05 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Thanks for reply

I probably had my cynical head on at the time and read too much into how the UKC logbook could be used, after all there if a fairly comprehensive Peak new routes database on the site, which is already useful for all climbers and guide book writers.

One of my worries was the “become a crag moderator”, but in hindsight it’s not too much different than what happens on another site - the Rockfax database, especially if the crags are local to you.

Having played on the logbook it does look good and a perfect way for all us sad (trainspotting) climbers to record and compare their routes. Will watch with interest and probably get sucked in especially now the winter months have arrived.

Thanks all at UKC for a good site, I must be getting too cynical with age.

Craig
In reply to AlisonC:
> I think there are about 12-14 regions (can come up with the full list if necessary), but they are very large, so not very helpful to someone trying to locate a climbing venue.

I think these latter regions are ok. We still have another level called 'area' before you actually get down to the crags so locating the crags should still be okay. I personally am more aware of the latter set of names you mention than the former I think so I suspect are most UK climbers.

Could you put a full list together, include the relationship to the few areas we already have if possible. Email direct to me is best.

Thanks

Alan
 ChrisJD 05 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Hi Alan

Great new feature!

There are lots of routes have done in past without noting down anywhere.

I can remenber the decade (just) - so how about a button for 1980s, 1990s etc, or even an option to put in year without month.

any chance also of being able to enter data in differnt format eg 12/05/05


I know there are already loads of graphs, but how about

Grades by Year
Grades by Decade


Keep up the great work

Cheers

Chris
 Iain X 05 Dec 2005
Nick/Alan

It would be handy for lazy people like me to have a 'no date' option. If you don't want to set up a 'no date' how about defaulting the date fields to 01/01/1901.
That lets sad tickers like me come up with graphs and what have you without worrying about dates.
Cheers
Iain
In reply to Iain X:

This request has been made by a number of people but sadly it causes us a few problems. The date field is used a lot to order ascents and build stats. Having a load of floating date-less ascents will make this tricky.

Would dropping it to just demanding a year be an option?

Alan
 AlisonC 05 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC: I would welcome the option just to enter the year with no month.
 ChrisJD 05 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

having a "year" option would be a good compromise
 AlisonC 06 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
> Could you put a full list together, include the relationship to the few areas we already have if possible.

Will do but depending on work it could be a couple of days.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: Lots of people have requested this change, so you can now just enter a year, without having to remember the month you climbed something.

Cheers
 Iain X 06 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC: What about setting the fields to default to 01/01/1901. Nobody here will actually have climbed anything on that date. That way anyone too lazy (like me) to enter all their dates will just have everything lumped into the turn of last century, out of the way, as it were.
Iain
 ChrisJD 06 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Is there a way we can download the logbook data for backup purposes?
 UKB Shark 06 Dec 2005
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:


If I wanted to look at your logbook (for example)am I able to do so?

I see you can look at others logbooks from clicking on those that are on the recent update list but how do you access those off the list ?
In reply to Simon Lee: Yes, we'll be adding links from user profiles shortly.

Cheers
 Guy Maccdox 06 Dec 2005
In reply to Simon Lee:
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC)

> I see you can look at others logbooks from clicking on those that are on the recent update list but how do you access those off the list ?

Until the links are in place you could substitute any user's number into http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=<UserNumber>

 Steve Parker 07 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Erm, is this just for recent/current routes? It would take me quite a long time to type in all my past routes. Am I alone in thinking that those of us who have been climbing for quite some time might be a little daunted by the scale of the task? I happen to be one of those sad gits who has kept a record of almost everything I've done, and the prospect of transcribing it all is just a little offputting. Several thousand, at a guess.

Good if you were just starting out, but it would take me a long time to complete.

Sorry if I've missed something.
 AlisonC 07 Dec 2005
In reply to Steve Parker:

I thought this too, initially, but in fact if you go to the route listing for each crag, you can tick off all the routes you've done and it's then quick to add them to your log book.

It's quicker still if you only specify the year (rather than day/ month/ year) because this means you can enter them in very large batches. For eg, to enter all the grit routes I did as a beginner, I can go to the route lists for the crags in question, tick the boxes for the routes I did in one particular year, and tell it to add those to my log book in one large batch. It's quick and very simple.

It would be more time consuming if your climbs were scattered across many crags, or if you wanted to enter the precise date (because this would limit the size of the batches you could enter).
In reply to AlisonC: Yes, it should be pretty quick. I've put in over 1700 into my logbook and I was a bit disappointed by the total! I thought it was more like 3-4000 routes that I'd climbed over the years.

If you haven't tried it yet, tick all the routes you've done at a crag in the 'Find Climbs by Crag' page, and then when you go to add them to your logbook, click on 'Show full form' - you can use the simple form to set common details, like the year or partner, and then the expanded full form to change the other details really quickly.
 steev 07 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Is there a way to delete climbs fro your logbook?

I clicked the wrong box when adding from a crag and want to get rid of a route.
In reply to steev:
> Is there a way to delete climbs fro your logbook?
>
> I clicked the wrong box when adding from a crag and want to get rid of a route.

Click on the individual Route Name in your logbook.

Click on 'Edit log' under 'Your Logbook' in the route page.

Alan
 UKB Shark 08 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

In the light of the Ben Heason threads I think it might be prudent and more modern if you were to substitute the description 'Partner(s)' for 'Witness(es)'
 Jon Read 09 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Soloed routes that are practised just come out as 'Solo'. Can it be ammended to 'Solo RP'?
 Jon Read 09 Dec 2005
Oh, and Shani has just claimed to have O/S soloed Indian Face. Ho ho ho. What a joker! He's SO funny! What a guy.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=35194
In reply to Jon Read: Now fixed, thanks.
 Offwidth 09 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Well done Alan. Looking forward to seeing how this pans out. In particular I suspect at this rate of the grade data will soon significantly improve the current situation on the routes database. You also could be getting a very helpful profile of climbing abilities. Especially if people don't keep being silly and claiming on-sight solos of Indian Face or Multiple day aid ascents of The Promenade at Birchen. Isn't it wonderful how tickling climber's egos helps get better information
 LakesWinter 09 Dec 2005
In reply to Offwidth: This logbook has turned me into a technogeek, I have spent at least 6 hours this week just entering routes and reliving memories. It has been a lot of fun.
 UKB Shark 09 Dec 2005
In reply to MattG:

Only 6 hours !
 LakesWinter 11 Dec 2005
In reply to Simon Lee: Yeah, I haven't done that much climbing it seems, only around 500 routes ever in 7 years or so.
 UKB Shark 14 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Any chance of being able to add notes to your wishlist like you can with the ticked routes. Would be useful for jotting down beta on moves, protection etc.
 HIGHTOWER 15 Dec 2005
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Could there be an option to say if you did a route in summer of winter conditions for the climbs this applys to? (Eg Scottish mountains)
 Simon Caldwell 16 Dec 2005
In reply to HIGHTOWER:
The same route can be added twice, once with a winter grade and once with a summer grade
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

As Simon says, the routes need to be added separately as different routes. If only the wrong version is in the database (ie. the summer route and you want the winter route) then add the correct version with the correct grade.

Alan
In reply to Simon Lee:
> Any chance of being able to add notes to your wishlist like you can with the ticked routes. Would be useful for jotting down beta on moves, protection etc.

We are adding all these ideas to the ToDo list. Unfortunately we haven't got any budget to actually put any of them into place at the moment but hopefully it will be done some time in the new year.

Thanks for all the suggestions and keep them coming.

Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Just under 3 weeks since launching the Logbooks, and we've reached 30,000 logged climbs in the system!
 UKB Shark 22 Dec 2005
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Nearly 10% accounted for between us !
 Fume Troll 12 Jan 2006
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Could this be extended to provide a logbook for summits, tops, munros, corbetts, Grahams..... etc?

Cheers,

FT.
 climberuk 02 Apr 2006
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Has any progress been made on the 'exporting the logbook' feature?

I'm scared to rely on this as my primary logbook source.

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