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The parents of Peter Terbush who died after a rock fall at Yosemite’s Glacier Point are suing the National Park Service in a $10-million wrongful death lawsuit.........
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Mick Ryan: that is a joke right??
In reply to Mick Ryan: that is bloody ridiculas.
In reply to mac_climb: They should sue themselves for letting there child do such a silly and dangerous sport
In reply to Mick Ryan: Crazy, I'd have gone for $20M
In reply to sloper: I would go for at least 1 billion, i mean those national parks are made of money
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Jeepers! ... No doubt there will be a few more wrongful death lawsuits flying about when the caldera eventually blows?
>
> ... are suing the National Park Service in a $10-million wrongful death lawsuit.........
> ... are suing the National Park Service in a $10-million wrongful death lawsuit.........
Jeepers! ... No doubt there will be a few more wrongful death lawsuits flying about when the caldera eventually blows?
In reply to Mick Ryan: surely it's God that's at fault?
In reply to Ian Hill: yeah but in america god can't put a step wrong. its as if he's some sort of god.
In reply to mac_climb: ah, a dj?
In reply to Justin:
Here is the LA Times article
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-terbush22aug22,1,3743907.sto...
It centres around seep lines from a toilet that they claim was the cause...
Here is the LA Times article
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-terbush22aug22,1,3743907.sto...
It centres around seep lines from a toilet that they claim was the cause...
In reply to Mick Ryan:
I'm unclear from the article as to why climbing in Yosemite should be threatened by this. Was the guy killed actually climbing at the time?
Dave
I'm unclear from the article as to why climbing in Yosemite should be threatened by this. Was the guy killed actually climbing at the time?
Dave
In reply to Dave Pritchard:
Yes. It mentions that. He is deemed a hero because he didn't let go of his belay. The other two survived.
Yes. It mentions that. He is deemed a hero because he didn't let go of his belay. The other two survived.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
$10-million suit by the grieving parents of a 21-year-old man who died in a Yosemite rock fall could result in severe restrictions on the sport.
By Eric Bailey
Times Staff Writer
August 22, 2005
YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK — The rumble began high on the sheer cliff wall, like faraway thunder before a storm.
A slab of granite as big as a railroad boxcar had let loose 1,300 feet up Glacier Point's age-worn face. The million-pound rock cartwheeled and shattered, tracing a plume of dust downward toward Peter Terbush.
In his last earthbound moments, Terbush turned to a long-ago climbing lesson taught by his dad. As a little boy first astride a mountain, he learned to always protect a partner at the end of the rope. Never let go.
The broad-shouldered 21-year-old held fast to the nylon lifeline lashed to a friend 60 feet up. Another buddy on the ground scrambled for cover as the boulders hit earth, exploding like bombs.
Fate let his two friends escape with lacerations. They found Terbush's body crumpled in a ball, his hands still gripping the rope.
Six years after the rock slide, his parents suspect that mankind's handprint atop Glacier Point — most notably a bathroom water system prone to overflow — lubricated the cliff face, provoking a flurry of rock falls, including the June 1999 tragedy that claimed Terbush.
His parents have poured their grief and suspicions and search for answers into a $10-million wrongful death lawsuit against the National Park Service. "My son understood the risks of climbing," said Jim Terbush, himself a climber. "But he didn't know the conditions on Glacier Point had been fundamentally changed."
The legal battle, set for a first hearing Tuesday, has sent reverberations around Yosemite and the climbing community beyond.
Park officials have a ready argument — and an admonition: No one can know when a rock fall is going to happen. And a ruling against the park, they warn, could all but kill climbing in the Yosemite Valley.
Climbers contend their sport is the ultimate test of personal responsibility. The lawsuit goes beyond geology and public policy. To climbers, it challenges a basic tenet.
"We're at risk every time we go up," Sean Kovatch, 20, said recently during his first Yosemite climbing trip. "And sometimes people don't come off the mountain."
> (In reply to Justin)
>
> Here is the LA Times article
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-terbush22aug22,1,3743907.sto...
>
> It centres around seep lines from a toilet that they claim was the cause...
>
> Here is the LA Times article
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-terbush22aug22,1,3743907.sto...
>
> It centres around seep lines from a toilet that they claim was the cause...
$10-million suit by the grieving parents of a 21-year-old man who died in a Yosemite rock fall could result in severe restrictions on the sport.
By Eric Bailey
Times Staff Writer
August 22, 2005
YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK — The rumble began high on the sheer cliff wall, like faraway thunder before a storm.
A slab of granite as big as a railroad boxcar had let loose 1,300 feet up Glacier Point's age-worn face. The million-pound rock cartwheeled and shattered, tracing a plume of dust downward toward Peter Terbush.
In his last earthbound moments, Terbush turned to a long-ago climbing lesson taught by his dad. As a little boy first astride a mountain, he learned to always protect a partner at the end of the rope. Never let go.
The broad-shouldered 21-year-old held fast to the nylon lifeline lashed to a friend 60 feet up. Another buddy on the ground scrambled for cover as the boulders hit earth, exploding like bombs.
Fate let his two friends escape with lacerations. They found Terbush's body crumpled in a ball, his hands still gripping the rope.
Six years after the rock slide, his parents suspect that mankind's handprint atop Glacier Point — most notably a bathroom water system prone to overflow — lubricated the cliff face, provoking a flurry of rock falls, including the June 1999 tragedy that claimed Terbush.
His parents have poured their grief and suspicions and search for answers into a $10-million wrongful death lawsuit against the National Park Service. "My son understood the risks of climbing," said Jim Terbush, himself a climber. "But he didn't know the conditions on Glacier Point had been fundamentally changed."
The legal battle, set for a first hearing Tuesday, has sent reverberations around Yosemite and the climbing community beyond.
Park officials have a ready argument — and an admonition: No one can know when a rock fall is going to happen. And a ruling against the park, they warn, could all but kill climbing in the Yosemite Valley.
Climbers contend their sport is the ultimate test of personal responsibility. The lawsuit goes beyond geology and public policy. To climbers, it challenges a basic tenet.
"We're at risk every time we go up," Sean Kovatch, 20, said recently during his first Yosemite climbing trip. "And sometimes people don't come off the mountain."
Skinny but Strong
Peter Terbush seemed destined to stand beside a cliff face.
Born into the third generation of a Colorado climbing family, he nearly didn't make it into diapers. Arriving unexpectedly 14 weeks premature on a snowy night at home in Castle Rock, Terbush survived a harrowing drive to the emergency room.
He was all of 1 pound, 14 ounces, and the doctor wrapped him in tin foil to keep him warm for transport to a bigger hospital. He looked, his father recalled, like a little baked potato.
Pete grew up skinny but strong, a ball of positive energy with a floppy mop of curly auburn hair topping it all.
He took up the family avocation, learning to climb with his dad at age 9. With his owlish glasses and sideways smile, he looked like a Harry Potter of the hillside. He even launched his own climbing club in elementary school, proving precociously adventurous. One after-school climb ended with his being rescued by his dad and the Castle Rock Fire Department.
Jim Terbush was a physician for the U.S. Navy and at American embassies from London to Singapore. As the family journeyed to the corners of the world, Peter Terbush was always in the mountains. He climbed in the Himalayas, the Dolomites, the French Alps.
Back in the United States, Terbush attended Western State College in Gunnison, Colo., where he majored in geology and built an inseparable cadre of friends who thought nothing of driving 10 hours to Zion National Park for a weekend of climbing, returning exhausted just in time for Monday classes. In winter they'd go skiing, Pete dressed in old leather boots and wool knickers, using old-school poles and singing the whole time.
"He would bounce when he walked," remembered Laura Chase, a close friend. "His hair would bounce. All this electricity would bounce through his hair."
By 21, he had lost that little boy look. He grew a beard and developed the lean muscularity intrinsic to climbing, sometimes grabbing the narrow crest of a doorframe and practicing pull-ups, more to strengthen fingertips than to build biceps.
He taught climbing classes, earning a reputation for skill and safety. "Good skills!" he'd yell to climbers displaying a nice bit of technique. He talked endlessly of becoming a climbing guide. But he knew something was missing — a trip to Yosemite, one of the climbing world's crucibles.
A Late Climb
His last few days of life were spent mostly on flat terra firma.
He and a few college buddies tried scaling El Capitan, but an equipment failure prompted a retreat. Instead, Terbush and Joe Kewin hiked in the ethereal beauty of the Yosemite high country. They basked in meadows hugged by salt-and-pepper granite hills, took in the saw-tooth fusion of rock and sky.
Back in the valley, a night before they were to leave, Terbush joined Kewin and Kerry Pyle for dinner at a Curry Village pizza joint. Some daylight was left, so they decided to climb a lower section of Apron Jam, a route below Glacier Point. They played rock-paper-scissors to decide who went first. Pyle won. The rock face was still warm from the day's sun.
Suddenly they were on the edge of nature's artillery range, boulders cascading like howitzer shells. Pyle tried to lash himself to a couple of bolts in the rock but got hit by shattered fragments and decided to just hang on. Terbush locked in the belay rope.
In nearby Curry Village, visitors screamed and ran as a dust cloud rose over the valley's southeast edge. Rock shrapnel punched holes through tent-cabins. Powdery residue settled like snow.
When the cliff finally stopped falling, Pyle still clung to the face. He heard Kewin shouting below.
Pete's dead! Pete's dead!
The rock that struck him in the head was the size of a basketball, Jim Terbush said. His son died instantly, mercifully.
Kewin, who had scampered to a safe spot hugging the cliff side, pried the rope from his friend's rigid hands to lower the dazed Pyle to the ground.
Park officials declared Peter Terbush a hero, citing how he had hung on to his friend in a selfless act of bravery.
He was cremated with a climbing sling over his shoulder, bandoleer style, and his climbing boots. At the behest of Jim Terbush, his ashes were spread by a captain in the Argentine Army's climbing corps at more than 22,000 feet on Aconcagua, the highest peak in the Americas.
Not long after his son's death, Jim Terbush heard about geologist Skip Watts and his provocative theory about Glacier Point.
Watts, a Radford University professor, had come to Yosemite in 1997 to help a graduate student investigate the aftermath of a huge rock slide a year earlier that had killed one man on the ground and injured 14 others. That slide occurred at Happy Isles, around a bend from the rock fall that killed Terbush.
Preparing to rappel off the cliff face, Watts was surprised by the smell of sewage wafting from leaking pipes at the old bathrooms atop Glacier Point. He theorized that the errant effluent helped trigger the 1996 rock fall.
His curiosity grew as rock falls occurred in November 1998 and May 1999. Then on June 13, 1999, the slide that killed Terbush let loose in the same area.
Studying a photograph, Watts traced the fractures on Glacier Point's rock face. Arching upward, the cracks continued to the bluff top, where Watts discovered what he considers the culprit: Water overflowing from a 300,000-gallon storage tank.
That leaking water, he concluded, pooled in fractures and put pressure on the rock, acting like a lever to start a slide.
The geologist eventually obtained Park Service records he contends correlate water overflows in 1998, 1999 and 2000 with subsequent rock falls. When the tank wasn't overflowing, Watts said, the slopes were relatively quiet.
"The situation at Glacier Point is very unnatural," said Watts, who believes the Park Service should reconsider the danger to crowded Curry Village, in the shadow of Glacier Point. By the time Terbush was killed, "it would have been reasonable to have warning signs."
Jim Terbush, already pursuing an exhaustive records request of any Parks Service information dealing with Glacier Point, embraced the theory.
He moved toward a lawsuit, the father said, after the agency redacted a dozen key documents he hoped would answer questions about what happened. Lawyers told him the only way to see the contents was to file a claim. The legal battle began in June 2001.
"My No. 1 reason is to find the truth," Jim Terbush said. "What caused the death of my son?"
'Out in Left Field'
Yosemite Valley exists because of glaciers and geology and the endless process of rock sloughing off the sides of vertical granite walls. Park administrators consistently wrangle over posting warning placards, which can do more to mar the scenery than prevent casualties.
It is not a simple debate.
So when Watts laid out his theory about the Glacier Point slides, Yosemite officials took swift offense. A park spokesman said in November 1999 that other geologists believed Watts was "out in left field on this."
Federal officials have attacked Watts' credentials, contending that the Virginia-based geologist simply doesn't understand fluid dynamics and the vagaries of Western granite.
Gerry Wieczorek of the U.S. Geological Survey, a onetime collaborator of Watts now on the opposite side of the Terbush case, is more polite.
He simply doesn't believe Watts' theory can be proved or disproved without far more sophisticated experimentation (a fact Watts finds ironic, given that he's failed to receive permission for further tests).
Wieczorek has documented more than 500 slides in the park since 1850, and the common demonstrable factors are the effect of the freeze-thaw cycle, heavy rainfall and earthquakes. Although water can trigger slides, he said, natural drainage into the soil from abundant snowfall dwarfs any overflowing bathroom water.
Peter Terbush seemed destined to stand beside a cliff face.
Born into the third generation of a Colorado climbing family, he nearly didn't make it into diapers. Arriving unexpectedly 14 weeks premature on a snowy night at home in Castle Rock, Terbush survived a harrowing drive to the emergency room.
He was all of 1 pound, 14 ounces, and the doctor wrapped him in tin foil to keep him warm for transport to a bigger hospital. He looked, his father recalled, like a little baked potato.
Pete grew up skinny but strong, a ball of positive energy with a floppy mop of curly auburn hair topping it all.
He took up the family avocation, learning to climb with his dad at age 9. With his owlish glasses and sideways smile, he looked like a Harry Potter of the hillside. He even launched his own climbing club in elementary school, proving precociously adventurous. One after-school climb ended with his being rescued by his dad and the Castle Rock Fire Department.
Jim Terbush was a physician for the U.S. Navy and at American embassies from London to Singapore. As the family journeyed to the corners of the world, Peter Terbush was always in the mountains. He climbed in the Himalayas, the Dolomites, the French Alps.
Back in the United States, Terbush attended Western State College in Gunnison, Colo., where he majored in geology and built an inseparable cadre of friends who thought nothing of driving 10 hours to Zion National Park for a weekend of climbing, returning exhausted just in time for Monday classes. In winter they'd go skiing, Pete dressed in old leather boots and wool knickers, using old-school poles and singing the whole time.
"He would bounce when he walked," remembered Laura Chase, a close friend. "His hair would bounce. All this electricity would bounce through his hair."
By 21, he had lost that little boy look. He grew a beard and developed the lean muscularity intrinsic to climbing, sometimes grabbing the narrow crest of a doorframe and practicing pull-ups, more to strengthen fingertips than to build biceps.
He taught climbing classes, earning a reputation for skill and safety. "Good skills!" he'd yell to climbers displaying a nice bit of technique. He talked endlessly of becoming a climbing guide. But he knew something was missing — a trip to Yosemite, one of the climbing world's crucibles.
A Late Climb
His last few days of life were spent mostly on flat terra firma.
He and a few college buddies tried scaling El Capitan, but an equipment failure prompted a retreat. Instead, Terbush and Joe Kewin hiked in the ethereal beauty of the Yosemite high country. They basked in meadows hugged by salt-and-pepper granite hills, took in the saw-tooth fusion of rock and sky.
Back in the valley, a night before they were to leave, Terbush joined Kewin and Kerry Pyle for dinner at a Curry Village pizza joint. Some daylight was left, so they decided to climb a lower section of Apron Jam, a route below Glacier Point. They played rock-paper-scissors to decide who went first. Pyle won. The rock face was still warm from the day's sun.
Suddenly they were on the edge of nature's artillery range, boulders cascading like howitzer shells. Pyle tried to lash himself to a couple of bolts in the rock but got hit by shattered fragments and decided to just hang on. Terbush locked in the belay rope.
In nearby Curry Village, visitors screamed and ran as a dust cloud rose over the valley's southeast edge. Rock shrapnel punched holes through tent-cabins. Powdery residue settled like snow.
When the cliff finally stopped falling, Pyle still clung to the face. He heard Kewin shouting below.
Pete's dead! Pete's dead!
The rock that struck him in the head was the size of a basketball, Jim Terbush said. His son died instantly, mercifully.
Kewin, who had scampered to a safe spot hugging the cliff side, pried the rope from his friend's rigid hands to lower the dazed Pyle to the ground.
Park officials declared Peter Terbush a hero, citing how he had hung on to his friend in a selfless act of bravery.
He was cremated with a climbing sling over his shoulder, bandoleer style, and his climbing boots. At the behest of Jim Terbush, his ashes were spread by a captain in the Argentine Army's climbing corps at more than 22,000 feet on Aconcagua, the highest peak in the Americas.
Not long after his son's death, Jim Terbush heard about geologist Skip Watts and his provocative theory about Glacier Point.
Watts, a Radford University professor, had come to Yosemite in 1997 to help a graduate student investigate the aftermath of a huge rock slide a year earlier that had killed one man on the ground and injured 14 others. That slide occurred at Happy Isles, around a bend from the rock fall that killed Terbush.
Preparing to rappel off the cliff face, Watts was surprised by the smell of sewage wafting from leaking pipes at the old bathrooms atop Glacier Point. He theorized that the errant effluent helped trigger the 1996 rock fall.
His curiosity grew as rock falls occurred in November 1998 and May 1999. Then on June 13, 1999, the slide that killed Terbush let loose in the same area.
Studying a photograph, Watts traced the fractures on Glacier Point's rock face. Arching upward, the cracks continued to the bluff top, where Watts discovered what he considers the culprit: Water overflowing from a 300,000-gallon storage tank.
That leaking water, he concluded, pooled in fractures and put pressure on the rock, acting like a lever to start a slide.
The geologist eventually obtained Park Service records he contends correlate water overflows in 1998, 1999 and 2000 with subsequent rock falls. When the tank wasn't overflowing, Watts said, the slopes were relatively quiet.
"The situation at Glacier Point is very unnatural," said Watts, who believes the Park Service should reconsider the danger to crowded Curry Village, in the shadow of Glacier Point. By the time Terbush was killed, "it would have been reasonable to have warning signs."
Jim Terbush, already pursuing an exhaustive records request of any Parks Service information dealing with Glacier Point, embraced the theory.
He moved toward a lawsuit, the father said, after the agency redacted a dozen key documents he hoped would answer questions about what happened. Lawyers told him the only way to see the contents was to file a claim. The legal battle began in June 2001.
"My No. 1 reason is to find the truth," Jim Terbush said. "What caused the death of my son?"
'Out in Left Field'
Yosemite Valley exists because of glaciers and geology and the endless process of rock sloughing off the sides of vertical granite walls. Park administrators consistently wrangle over posting warning placards, which can do more to mar the scenery than prevent casualties.
It is not a simple debate.
So when Watts laid out his theory about the Glacier Point slides, Yosemite officials took swift offense. A park spokesman said in November 1999 that other geologists believed Watts was "out in left field on this."
Federal officials have attacked Watts' credentials, contending that the Virginia-based geologist simply doesn't understand fluid dynamics and the vagaries of Western granite.
Gerry Wieczorek of the U.S. Geological Survey, a onetime collaborator of Watts now on the opposite side of the Terbush case, is more polite.
He simply doesn't believe Watts' theory can be proved or disproved without far more sophisticated experimentation (a fact Watts finds ironic, given that he's failed to receive permission for further tests).
Wieczorek has documented more than 500 slides in the park since 1850, and the common demonstrable factors are the effect of the freeze-thaw cycle, heavy rainfall and earthquakes. Although water can trigger slides, he said, natural drainage into the soil from abundant snowfall dwarfs any overflowing bathroom water.
In reply to Mick Ryan:
In its first century as a national park, Yosemite has seen 15 people killed by rock falls. Given the more than 3 million visitors each year to the valley, the park has a good safety record, said Kristi Kapetan, the assistant U.S. attorney defending the park in the Terbush suit.
If the Terbush family prevails, it could prompt park officials to prohibit rock climbing and other dangerous sports, she said.
"I feel bad for the parents," Kapetan said. "But this would be like blaming Mother Nature. Like suing for an earthquake. We didn't do anything to cause a spontaneous rock fall."
'Inherently Dangerous'
Many of Yosemite's climbing regulars, often at odds with rangers, find common ground with park officials this time.
Injury and death in climbing rarely prompt lawsuits. What happens on the big wall stays on the big wall. Terbush assumed the risk, they say, simply by strapping on his belay harness and grabbing that rope.
Over at Camp 4, the simple collection of fire rings and picnic tables that serves as the crossroads of the valley's climbing community, a few climbers recently shared such sentiments.
Like Terbush, they are young and exude endless energy. Lean as greyhounds, they look as if they could conquer anything.
"Everyone knows the sport is just inherently dangerous," said Miles Stewart, 25, of Reno as he prepared a string of nuts and cams for an afternoon climb.
"Americans are sue-happy," added his buddy, Laine Christmen, 24. "If it's equipment failure, manufacturing negligence, then fine. But not a rock fall. It's part of the sport. Wind and water take their toll."
Diego Avelar, visiting Yosemite from Jalisco, Mexico, said climbers rejoice in the sense of freedom on the rock, the power to make what they want of life.
"If they decide to take that risk, it should be without looking back," said Avelar, 21. "A climber's father should know that."
"It's a shame for the kid who died, " added his friend, 22-year-old Roberto Larios. "But it's wrong to find someone to blame. Otherwise you're suing nature."
Jim Terbush has heard such comments, has seen them on climber's websites. He winces a bit but offers a counterpoint.
He considers Yosemite a temple. He's not out to kill climbing in the valley. He doesn't want money. He simply wants to make climbing safer.
The family has tried to do that in many ways, including sponsoring a climbing seminar in Gunnison for prospective mountain guides that teaches the principles of leadership and service in a dangerous sport.
Given previous rock slides below Glacier Point, Jim Terbush questions, why not post a flier on Camp 4 so newcomers knew? Geologists can rate the stability of cliffs above roads. Why not climbing routes in Yosemite?
He and his wife may not win in court, Jim Terbush realizes. In fact, the legal odds seem stacked against them. But it will close a chapter in their lives.
"There was still this outstanding question," Jim Terbush said. "I felt if I didn't chase it to the ground, for the rest of my life I'd be wondering."
Because their son will forever be up there on the mountain. And they'll never let go.
In its first century as a national park, Yosemite has seen 15 people killed by rock falls. Given the more than 3 million visitors each year to the valley, the park has a good safety record, said Kristi Kapetan, the assistant U.S. attorney defending the park in the Terbush suit.
If the Terbush family prevails, it could prompt park officials to prohibit rock climbing and other dangerous sports, she said.
"I feel bad for the parents," Kapetan said. "But this would be like blaming Mother Nature. Like suing for an earthquake. We didn't do anything to cause a spontaneous rock fall."
'Inherently Dangerous'
Many of Yosemite's climbing regulars, often at odds with rangers, find common ground with park officials this time.
Injury and death in climbing rarely prompt lawsuits. What happens on the big wall stays on the big wall. Terbush assumed the risk, they say, simply by strapping on his belay harness and grabbing that rope.
Over at Camp 4, the simple collection of fire rings and picnic tables that serves as the crossroads of the valley's climbing community, a few climbers recently shared such sentiments.
Like Terbush, they are young and exude endless energy. Lean as greyhounds, they look as if they could conquer anything.
"Everyone knows the sport is just inherently dangerous," said Miles Stewart, 25, of Reno as he prepared a string of nuts and cams for an afternoon climb.
"Americans are sue-happy," added his buddy, Laine Christmen, 24. "If it's equipment failure, manufacturing negligence, then fine. But not a rock fall. It's part of the sport. Wind and water take their toll."
Diego Avelar, visiting Yosemite from Jalisco, Mexico, said climbers rejoice in the sense of freedom on the rock, the power to make what they want of life.
"If they decide to take that risk, it should be without looking back," said Avelar, 21. "A climber's father should know that."
"It's a shame for the kid who died, " added his friend, 22-year-old Roberto Larios. "But it's wrong to find someone to blame. Otherwise you're suing nature."
Jim Terbush has heard such comments, has seen them on climber's websites. He winces a bit but offers a counterpoint.
He considers Yosemite a temple. He's not out to kill climbing in the valley. He doesn't want money. He simply wants to make climbing safer.
The family has tried to do that in many ways, including sponsoring a climbing seminar in Gunnison for prospective mountain guides that teaches the principles of leadership and service in a dangerous sport.
Given previous rock slides below Glacier Point, Jim Terbush questions, why not post a flier on Camp 4 so newcomers knew? Geologists can rate the stability of cliffs above roads. Why not climbing routes in Yosemite?
He and his wife may not win in court, Jim Terbush realizes. In fact, the legal odds seem stacked against them. But it will close a chapter in their lives.
"There was still this outstanding question," Jim Terbush said. "I felt if I didn't chase it to the ground, for the rest of my life I'd be wondering."
Because their son will forever be up there on the mountain. And they'll never let go.
In reply to Mick Ryan: Surely the guys dad, being a climber himself, understands the risks involved in climbing and knows that it can result in serious injury or even death. He must almost realise that a lawsuit such as this could have disastrous affects for the sport!
In reply to mac_climb:
Without sounding like a kill joy, I don't like the way they are run. I think it was $20 to go to Yosemite when I visited and non of that money goes on conservation. It goes on building hotels and roads so that even more money is made.
> (In reply to sloper) I would go for at least 1 billion, i mean those national parks are made of money
Without sounding like a kill joy, I don't like the way they are run. I think it was $20 to go to Yosemite when I visited and non of that money goes on conservation. It goes on building hotels and roads so that even more money is made.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
i agree the place is a state. you dont quite see it all till you get off the ground then its even worse.
i agree the place is a state. you dont quite see it all till you get off the ground then its even worse.
In reply to Jon Dittman: i meant it!! i have been to america. (i didn't really but hey)
In reply to Adam Moroz: I think you are missing the point. His father claims the rockfall was caused by water seepage from man-made storage tanks, rather than by nature, and that the risk could have been anticipated.
However it grieves me that a climber would bring such a lawsuit, which seems bound to be disasterous to climbing in the USA if it succeeds.
However it grieves me that a climber would bring such a lawsuit, which seems bound to be disasterous to climbing in the USA if it succeeds.
In reply to Mick Ryan: reading through your reports posted ill be amased if they win!
the rock fall was caused by leaking sewage and ice expansion
a nice theory provided it never rains! because im sure that the rain water is to blame so perhaps they should also sue cumilo nimbus?? (sp)
at the end of the day its a mountain,and bits drop off them! a tragic turn of events where man was yet again in the wrong place at the worng time
the rock fall was caused by leaking sewage and ice expansion
a nice theory provided it never rains! because im sure that the rain water is to blame so perhaps they should also sue cumilo nimbus?? (sp)
at the end of the day its a mountain,and bits drop off them! a tragic turn of events where man was yet again in the wrong place at the worng time
I've been a California climber for 37 years. I lived in Yosemite in the early 70's. Rockfall happens. People, let alone climbers, die in the mountains. I've lost climbing friends in tragic accidents. Mr. Terbush has an interesting point, but it is extreme to think that the National Park Service has liability as the direct cause. Perhaps the parents should sue every church in America for negative "acts of God." A lawsuit like this occurs in America frequently because people here have grown up believing that "someone else must be responsible." That's what our litigious society has bred...an entire flock of people who want and need to find fault. I've been injured by Yosemite rockfall, I've had friends injured by Yosemite rockfall...we never once assumed it was someone else's responsibility. It's tragic to lose a son...I know, I lost my first-born. But to assume that the National Park Service was responsible for Mr. Terbush's son's death is too extreme. One might as well sue the NPS for not building adequately strong road barriers if one drives off the cliff. Or suing them for diseases contracted in inadequately cleaned restrooms (the loo). Or suing them if one slides out on ice in the backcountry, because they didn't post warning signs. Perhaps the NPS will next be sued when there is a slab release on Half Dome, because the NPS didn't warn climbers that hikers frequently pee in the cracks on top. I certainly know that human conditions and constructs create hazardous situations. But in this case, I feel that Mr. Terbush's grief has encouraged him to seek a liability remedy. Again, I understand Mr. Terbush's loss. I grieve again for my son, and for my best friend who was killed climbing. There might even be a connection between these bathrooms and the slide. But every condition and situation cannot be foreseen and planned for, especially in a sport and lifestyle as fraught with uncertainty and "acts of God" as climbing.
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Why is he suing for $10,000,000 then?
> He considers Yosemite a temple. He's not out to kill >climbing in the valley. He doesn't want money. He simply >wants to make climbing safer.
Why is he suing for $10,000,000 then?
In reply to Doughboy:
Considering the size of some claims in America (like the recent one for the woman whose husband died using Vioxx) he probably thinks he letting them off lightly. Making climbing safer in Yosemite - missing the point, perhaps?
Considering the size of some claims in America (like the recent one for the woman whose husband died using Vioxx) he probably thinks he letting them off lightly. Making climbing safer in Yosemite - missing the point, perhaps?
In reply to tony:
Seems like a farce to me...saying he doesn't want any money, but then suing for $10 million...unless he gives it to the Access Fund, John Muir Trust or similar...
Paul
Seems like a farce to me...saying he doesn't want any money, but then suing for $10 million...unless he gives it to the Access Fund, John Muir Trust or similar...
Paul
In reply to Mick Ryan: maybe all climbers should sign a waver against liability too crag owners or national park services, I'ts our lives that we f#ck with, why should we mess it up for others.....
In reply to Mick Ryan: Hey i wonder what the guy who died would think if he was able to see his parents sueing the park. Do you think he would want that? I know i wouldnt.
In reply to Mick Ryan: this makes me feel ill. his dads a climber but clearly his american insticts come before his common sence. and where the hell did they get $10 million from. its not like his son was worth $10m for f*cks sake. they must have had an expensive funeral, or be experiencing some major 'emotional distress'. f*cking yanks. they should get jobs and stop sueing each others fat arses.
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Time for the baseball bat to come out again .
Time for the baseball bat to come out again .
In reply to nofx:
There is a science devoted to putting value on 'things", from someones life, to risk, pollution, emotional cost or distress.....there's some famous economists at Harvard who specialises in this type of thing....I think he is into risk/cost benefit analysis........and he answers questions in cold currency, questions like......is it cost effective to use racial profiling to identify potential suicide bombers on the the London Underground....or should we just stop everyone....what would the cost be to the British tax payer compared to the risk to the British tax payer.
So what value would you put on say your son if he had been killed by the neglilence of a public body?
I'm not saying that the YNP are guilty in this case.....but lets say it was clear cut. Yes no amount of money would bring him back, but you wouldn't want it to happen to any other father and mother. So how much do think they should have to pay to drive the lesson home?
Pick a ball park figure!
Mick
> and where the hell did they get $10 million from. its not like his son was worth $10m for f*cks sake. they must have had an expensive funeral, or be experiencing some major 'emotional distress'.
There is a science devoted to putting value on 'things", from someones life, to risk, pollution, emotional cost or distress.....there's some famous economists at Harvard who specialises in this type of thing....I think he is into risk/cost benefit analysis........and he answers questions in cold currency, questions like......is it cost effective to use racial profiling to identify potential suicide bombers on the the London Underground....or should we just stop everyone....what would the cost be to the British tax payer compared to the risk to the British tax payer.
So what value would you put on say your son if he had been killed by the neglilence of a public body?
I'm not saying that the YNP are guilty in this case.....but lets say it was clear cut. Yes no amount of money would bring him back, but you wouldn't want it to happen to any other father and mother. So how much do think they should have to pay to drive the lesson home?
Pick a ball park figure!
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan:
And unless they take frickin baths up on frickin Glacier Point then how could the frickin bathroom be frickin leaking. They must be getting all confused and mean the toilet, the bog, the loo, the john??, the shithouse, the dunny. Pwfffff. Pass me the frickin Radox.
And unless they take frickin baths up on frickin Glacier Point then how could the frickin bathroom be frickin leaking. They must be getting all confused and mean the toilet, the bog, the loo, the john??, the shithouse, the dunny. Pwfffff. Pass me the frickin Radox.
In reply to Spike Wong: A moving post, geezer. Very, very sorry to hear about your son. I have 1 son and can - to some extent - imagine what the loss must be like (My brother died needlessly at the age of 27). I agree with all your points. But I won't give up climbing, and I will encourage my son to climb if he shows any tendency (It's not gonna be compulsory). And if he or I fall off and get broken, we won't be suing anyone. And if a rock drops on my head I won't be suing anyone. In fact, you could probably smack me with a baseball bat before I got litigatious about it. The best thing about life is the right to honourably risk it, as you see fit, in the pursuit of life-enhancement -and not escapism.
In reply to Mick Ryan:
My ballpark figure is unguessable. My grief would be profound, and my anger would be extreme if it was genuinely the fault of a public body. My son is utterly irreplaceable and I cannot imagine life without him. If I received a gratuitous, formalized response, I would be in serious risk of killing someone. A decent, human response would probably forestall any extremities on my part. If I was treated like a tw*t, as is often the case when dealing with monolithic organizations, I would wanna take them for everything they had. One kind word would make all the difference. One piece of indifferent bullshit would also make all the difference.
My ballpark figure is unguessable. My grief would be profound, and my anger would be extreme if it was genuinely the fault of a public body. My son is utterly irreplaceable and I cannot imagine life without him. If I received a gratuitous, formalized response, I would be in serious risk of killing someone. A decent, human response would probably forestall any extremities on my part. If I was treated like a tw*t, as is often the case when dealing with monolithic organizations, I would wanna take them for everything they had. One kind word would make all the difference. One piece of indifferent bullshit would also make all the difference.
In reply to Steve Parker:
I feel the same. Although I may not be able to sue the hospital now my wife has died I will sue for the distress they caused me and her over the last three years since they crippled her. there is no time limit on that. And I want the trus chiefs balls on a stick.
I feel the same. Although I may not be able to sue the hospital now my wife has died I will sue for the distress they caused me and her over the last three years since they crippled her. there is no time limit on that. And I want the trus chiefs balls on a stick.
In reply to sutty: It sounds like an awful situation, Sutty, and I genuinely feel for you. Can't imagine what is like losing your life-partner. Good luck and all power to you.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
how did he stop his climbing partners from falling? surely when the poor guy was killed, his usefullness as a belayer will have ceased, irrespective of whether he was holding the rope or not?
yours confused,
m@
> (In reply to Dave Pritchard)
>
> Yes. It mentions that. He is deemed a hero because he didn't let go of his belay. The other two survived.
>
> Yes. It mentions that. He is deemed a hero because he didn't let go of his belay. The other two survived.
how did he stop his climbing partners from falling? surely when the poor guy was killed, his usefullness as a belayer will have ceased, irrespective of whether he was holding the rope or not?
yours confused,
m@
In reply to m@workingat work:
I did the route that they were on many years ago, and if I recall correctly a leader about 60ft up would be afforded a degree of protection from rockfall by the rock above him. I'm not certain on that though.
Dave
> how did he stop his climbing partners from falling? surely when the poor guy was killed, his usefullness as a belayer will have ceased, irrespective of whether he was holding the rope or not?
>
Sounds to me as if he was on the ground at the time, and one of his mates was 60ft up the first pitch whilst the other was also on the ground. The leader clung on during the rock fall, and was then belayed/lowered to the ground by the other guy.
>
I did the route that they were on many years ago, and if I recall correctly a leader about 60ft up would be afforded a degree of protection from rockfall by the rock above him. I'm not certain on that though.
Dave
In reply to m@workingat work:
the details are in one of the articles, which may be linked above. As i understand it he was killed but still holding on to his partners rope. A third person took the rope from his hands and lowered the partner.
the details are in one of the articles, which may be linked above. As i understand it he was killed but still holding on to his partners rope. A third person took the rope from his hands and lowered the partner.
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Seen a similar thing happen here in the UK. Army Training Ground at Longmoor has long been open to public, with appropriate warning signs "Do Not Deviate from Paths, Do Not touch ordenance" etc... yet about 8 years ago mountain bikers were banned following one idiot who strayed from a path, and rode into a trench and broke his arm. He then sued MOD (and lost) but MOD won't take the chance now... so because of this idiot local bikers have lost one of the best areas for training in the area.
Seen a similar thing happen here in the UK. Army Training Ground at Longmoor has long been open to public, with appropriate warning signs "Do Not Deviate from Paths, Do Not touch ordenance" etc... yet about 8 years ago mountain bikers were banned following one idiot who strayed from a path, and rode into a trench and broke his arm. He then sued MOD (and lost) but MOD won't take the chance now... so because of this idiot local bikers have lost one of the best areas for training in the area.
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Im still not entirely sure why this would threaten climbing in the park though?
Climbers are worth a phenomenal amount of revenue to the park itself, all year round. Especially if the entrance fee is $20 a go. The you have all the other things they buy/consume etc. Surely $10 million is actually peanuts to them realistically when its put against the revenue from climbing itself?
Sorry, just confused...
Im still not entirely sure why this would threaten climbing in the park though?
Climbers are worth a phenomenal amount of revenue to the park itself, all year round. Especially if the entrance fee is $20 a go. The you have all the other things they buy/consume etc. Surely $10 million is actually peanuts to them realistically when its put against the revenue from climbing itself?
Sorry, just confused...
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