UKH

Access difficulties have resurfaced at Langcliffe Quarry. Two years ago Craven District Council decided to ban climbing at Langcliffe because of safety considerations under their obligations under the Mines and Quarries Act. They were told that the BMC, and climbers in general, would not support such a ban unless the public or other property were shown to be in danger. As the council had fenced off the quarry and placed warning notices this was not likely to be the case. Recent new sport routes are all on walls of very compact and solid rock well away from the loose ground and scree covered ledges that many of the old trad routes follow.

This year we are told that the quarry is now listed as an Ancient Monument protected by the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979 and that climbing on it (and certainly any drilling) may constitute an offence. There are also nesting Peregrines and Ravens in the area.

Following a preliminary meeting yesterday at the National Park Office it was agreed to ask climbers to avoid the quarry from now until a further meeting of all interested parties could be arranged (probably in early May). Therefore the current BMC bird nesting leaflet which anyway shows restrictions from March to July should be amended to include February.

The BMC access officers are researching the legal position and I am hopeful that common sense will prevail and climbing can continue once the nesting season is over.

It would be interesting to know of any other precedents around the country where climbing is permitted within sites designated under the above act.

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove: trowbarrow ? the main wall has fossils which must be protected under some act or other ?

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Have they listed the quarry itself under Ancient Monument protected by the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979 or are there some proper archaeological sites/remains around the quarry?

In reply to tragically1969:

Trowbarrow used to be baned when it was owned by a quarrying company, it has since been sold to BMC(I think?), which means you can climb there.

I dont think it's an ancient monument.

In reply to tragically1969:

The main wall at Trowbarrow is a SSSI, which means that damaging it is illegal. However, a sign at the bottom of the wall suggests that the main worry is rope-wear brought on by top-roping/lowering off.

In reply to gizmo: yeah i knew it was a ss something or other but couldnt remember, still people top roping last i was there and brought down a huge rockfall to add to it, they thought it was hilarious for some reason

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

The Langdale Boulders are a Scheduled Ancient Monument (I think) and, obviously, climbing continues there.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/outdoor/rad/rad_det.asp?crag_id=596

Good luck with Langcliffe.

Nick

In reply to craig h: The main reason for the designation is to do with the Hoffman Kiln which is fairly unique but this is 250 yards away from the quarry walls and now has its own carpark and visitor trail. However I am told that all the quarry walls are included within the designated area.

We haven't seen the full designation order yet but intend to do so.

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:
Fairly sure Dumbarton falls into that catergory. Also seem to remember there was a spat some years ago about the equipping of sport routes, though whether this was due to it being a historical site or the local ethic, I don't know.

In reply to Dave Musgrove:
Dave, I can recall doing one of the 'VS's' in the mid 70's. The awe, fear and deep, deep, humbling I felt then could be considered similar to that felt at an impressive ancient monument. Or was it simply cos there were no bolts?

In reply to Dave Musgrove:
Victoria Cave at Attermire is a Scheduled Ancient Monument but I understand some idiots still put bolted routes up it even after the YNDP threatened prosecution. Hard to believe innit...

In reply to Long John:

I think the bolted routes were all established here before anyone realised that drilling was likely to upset anyone. As far as I know no knew routes have been established since English Heritage raised the issue. This is however another case where the archeological interest is primarily in the floor of the cave where old bones were found - desecrated and dug out in a rather insensitive way by the Victorians. It is hard to see how climbing on the roof and walls above changes the nature of the archeology / paleantology.

I don't believe the YDNP threatened anyone with prosecution over this but in a spirit of harmony and shared interest an agreement was reached that climbing could continue but no further bolting should take place without prior consultation. The new guidebook will reflect that.

I believe that placing bolts in a quarry face where commercial blasting only ceased in 1960 is a completely different issue.

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Does anyone know why langcliffe has been scheduled? Scheduling a quarry seems a trifle odd unless it's much older than I think. Is there something else of significance there?

Andy

In reply to andrew whincup:

See Dave's post above, it is the Hoffman kiln that is really being scheduled but the area is extended somewhat.

Bob

In reply to Andy Say:

I had a similar experience on Midnight Buttress in 1969 Andy, and didn't go back for a long time. However, the modern routes are much more interesting - generally solid and on very compact rock, the totally protectionless qualities of which obviously even deterred bold adventurers such as Austin and Livesey.

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

There must have been some wonderful grip sessions at Langcliffe in the 1960s/70s.
Has anybody done the trad routes since?) I remember doing The Corner(?), described as
"a fine mountaineering experience" and being convinced I was going to die! On Tabula Rasa, the trick seemed to be to consider yourself already dead!!

It will be interesting to go back and actually enjoy climbing there...

In reply to Mick Ward:

Enjoyed midnight buttress, I don't think thats the word, survived midnight buttress might be beter. I have not been back to climb there, but the newer bolted stuff was tempting - well maybe. The guy I did the route with took up golf shortly after and has not been to a crag since. I wonder how much Langcliffe had to blame?

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

I think it is correct to say that the scheduling of the site under the AMAA Act 1979 will apply to the Hoffman kiln. This will be the "Scheduled Ancient Monument" itself but I don't know the extent of the area surrounding the kiln that is included in scheduling. I suspect that is the county council or the national park trying to pull a fast one and kill two birds with one stone - i.e. someone trying to stop climbing there because it is seen as a thorny issue. I am an archaeologist working in the area and I am meeting the national park archaeologist on site in the dales next Tuesday so I will ask him about the situation and report back on this thread.

There certainly are peregrine falcons nesting on the face of the quarry; the farmer who owns the land above the quarry is a good friend of mine and we see the peregrines all the time above the cliff. The breeding season ban on climbing is of course necessary for the success of these birds nesting and bringing up their young.

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Victoria Cave was excavated in the 1870's and is an internationally important archaeological site. I wouldn't say they "desecrated" the site but things were indeed done very differently then at a time when the world was trying still trying to break out of the biblical straightjacket of creationism and ideas about noah's flood being responsible for geological features. Some of the world's foremost geologists took an interest in the cave. I think the archaeologists did the best they could with the knowledge they had at the time. The Romano British material from Victoria Cave was found only a matter of feet below what is now the roof of the cave since the place was almost full up to the roof with sediments when discovered and was only found by chance when a dog ran down a small hole. The cave was emptied over a period of seven years by some guys with wheelbarrows and sieves, which seems almost unbelievable when you see the size of the place now.

I have just been speaking to my friend who owns the land above Langliffe Quarry who says there is an access argument there over getting to the quarry. Another farmer owns part of the crag but doesn't like climbers; Craven District Council own another part of the quarry face and are worried about insurance liability so they don't encourage climbing there - also there is apparently no proper right of access to the foot of the crag from the bottom. So climbers have been approaching across my friend's land but in doing so have broken a dry-stone wall down to get to the quarry. Some time ago he told the BMC that he didn't mind climbers crossing his land (as he is a very reasonable man) so long as a proper stile was put over the wall to protect it. Nothing happened on this score so in effect no-one is exactly ecstatic about things! It really wants sorting out one way or another, preferably in favour of us climbing types!

Of course, all of this wasn't helped when during a University of Bradford archaeology field school I was on in summer 2002, a first year student went illegally AWOL early one morning and his smashed up body was found that evening at the bottom of Langliffe quarry. I was getting to know him quite well and as you can imagine it wasn't the happiest of events. Christ knows what he was up to but he won't do it again. We are a bloody nuisance us archaeologists you know!

In reply to John Howard: Thanks for these 2 replies John. I'll reply direct about the farmer issue. Any help you can give on smoothing the waters will be very welcome.

Dave