Touring and Alpine Bindings on the same Skis

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 Xharlie 06 Mar 2018

I read that it was possible to mount the inserts for both touring and alpine bindings on the same set of skis, making it possible to use them for days with great fresh snow, in bounds, and for touring. I know basically nothing about touring but definitely want to move in that direction -- planning to go on courses as soon as possible -- and I am currently looking to buy skis now that various German online sources have started their end-of-season sales. I'd like to know some details, though, having only read mention that this was one option.

At the moment, my plan is to buy some free-ride skis for the conditions I *wish* I was always skiing: very soft new powder. (Blizzard Rustler 10, currently at about 30% off from a German source and also the shortest freeride skis I can get at 164cm. About 5cm more than my height, flat footed.) Recognising that their ideal conditions are likely to exist on about 2 of the average 20 days I get to ski, each year, I'll probably also pick up some used rental skis for bombing down pistes, dodging brown patches where grass is starting to come through old snow and being stepped on in lift queues. With a plan to move towards ski touring, I am wondering whether it would be a good idea to mount inserts for alpine bindings and touring bindings on the Blizzard skis and use them as a gateway tool for courses and at least my first few ski tours.

Or, more realistically, to PLAN to mount touring bindings, later, and do whatever is required to keep that option open.

So, is it possible?

Is it a good idea?

Do I need some special combination of bindings? Or special inserts?

Anyone done this?

What do you think about the plan, in general?

 Pete Houghton 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

If you are only PLANNING on getting into touring in the future, just mount some Marker F10s or 12s (10s, probably... how heavy are you?) or some Salomon Guardians on those Blizzards that you want, and use them as your freeride ski. Go touring on them a few times until you've got a bit of experience (and the frame bindings have given your legs a good workout), then think about what options are available to you for a more specific touring setup next season. You can then either redrill for some lighter tech bindings on your Blizzards, or keep them as a heavier touring setup and for lift-served freeride, and get another pair of skis with the touring bindings you want. That could be ultralight Dynafit Speedturns (or any of the similiar makes), some of the more rugged pin bindings like the Kingpin or similar style, or you could spring for the Salomon Shift next year, which sounds like they could be the answer to a lot of people's needs.

Inserts are a solution to some people's touring requirements, yes, but you'd be best off on some nice heavy frame bindings as a do-it-all until you know more about what you want to get out of your ski.

Post edited at 09:30
 beardy mike 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

Why not carry on renting until you start touring? As you rightly point out, you can't predict what conditions you will get and most rental shops hold stock of every type of ski and will happily give you a differen pair if a powder comes. By the time you add £30 to your baggage on a flight, paid £400 for a pair of powder skis and another £100 for old second hand rock ski's you could rent for years and have a pair of freshly prepared, waxed, latest technology skis every week you go. Or you could buy this years best powder skis, get tempted to use them on rock days and wreck them and have to buy new onesby the time you get around to learning to tour. Might sound pessimistic but that's most likely what will happen! Unless you're skiing 3-4 weeks a year+ it's just not worth it until you know exactly what type of ski you want!

OP Xharlie 06 Mar 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

I'm short. Getting short skis in rental shops seems to be basically impossible, as I have learned, this season. It seems that if you want something a bit wider in the waist than the standard rental piste skis and not longer than 170cm, you had better have brought them with you.

(Surprisingly, the smaller valleys do seem to have better rental shops.)

(Don't even get me started on finding smaller boot sizes. Seriously.)

 beardy mike 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

Fair enough. That's a fairly valid reason! Grow?

If the eventual aim is touring, then as suggested a pair of frame bindins will be the most acceptable compromise to start with. BUT, if you're going to buy boots, make sure you get them with pin inserts so that if you choose to at a later stage you can go to Dynafiddle. I find that for all touring they are so much better than frame bindings. The only place frame bindings rule is the side country as the in/out is so much easier and natural than on dynafaff. So get your ski's drilled and fitted with Quiverkillers for both systems and then you are set for all eventuallities...

 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

I have a pair of 169cm Whitedot Preachers for sale with Marker F10 bindings mounted on Quiver Killer inserts, and a pair of skins. 

The Preachers are brilliant fun in powder crud, crust etc and also carve on piste very well (unless it's really icy) 112 under foot with 14 m radius ,
https://www.whitedotskis.com/products/preacher

Post edited at 10:37
 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

But most boots with pin binding mounts won’t be compatible with hire skis, however some boots to have interchangeable soles-still a faff to change them. For a foot in both camps frame type touring bindings are a lot more versatile. I’ve recently gone over to pin bindings completely hence the offer for sale

 tehmarks 06 Mar 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

> But most boots with pin binding mounts won’t be compatible with hire skis, however some boots to have interchangeable soles-still a faff to change them.

I'm not sure I follow; virtually all touring boots are incompatible with downhill bindings whether they have pin inserts or not - it's the friction between the boot sole and the ski that causes the problems, not the pin inserts. Most tech boots will work equally well with most frame bindings.

 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to tehmarks: when I was using frame type touring bindings I kept the Alpine soles on my boots and adjusted the binding toe height to suit, this gave me option to use hire skis if I wanted to, and also removed any nagging doubt of grippier pin binding sole impeding lateral release ( the risk of this seems open to debate). The pin binding sole was not as thick and therefore wasn’t compatible with hire Ski Alpine bindings 

 

 CathS 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but having just started to do some touring, and recently invested in some of the kit, I've done a fair bit of research over the last couple of months.

If you are already doing a fair amount of backcountry/off piste skiing, rather than duplicating kit I would just invest in one pair of skis, bindings and boots that you can use for everything.

As others have said, you can use normal downhill boots with AT Frame bindings. So one option would be to just fit these to your skis.  

However, if you want to get into touring, you'd really want to get boots with a proper walk mode for touring.  Your best bet might be to get a pair of freeride boots that will be good for piste skiing as well as off-piste and shorter tours.  If you get a pair with tech inserts and interchangeable soles (e.g. Lange Freetour, Scarpa Freedom), you should in theory be able to use them with any sort of binding. Which would still give you the option of using them with skis with normal DIN bindings.   It only takes about 5 minutes to change the soles, so not too much faff.    I recently bought some of the Lange Freetours, and they are just as good to ski in as my Alpine downhill boots, with the added bonus that they are miles more comfortable.  So I will now be using them for everything.

But ideally you should go lighter than frame bindings. So maybe look at some of the more robust tech bindings (e.g. the new Fritschi Tecton binding), which would be good for every sort of skiing you might want to do. 

You might also look at the Salomon Shift binding which is due to come on the market later this year, which is a touring/hybrid binding compatible with any type of boot, including normal alpine downhill boots.

I'd be slightly wary of getting the very light specialised touring boots.  Someone I met recently had bought some of these, with the intention of then using them with hired touring skis, but then found that due to the rockered soles they were only compatible with tech bindings (and the only decent hire skis available had AT Frame bindings...).  Also they may be less good for all-round skiing ie. charging around on the pistes.

Finally, skis. There are endless options available.  You shouldn't need a 'powder specific' ski.  If you are doing off-piste/backcountry skiing regularly (and touring) most of the snow you encounter won't be powder anyway, so you need something versatile.  There are plenty of slightly lighter weight 'freeride' skis at around 88-98 mm width that will ski brilliantly on everything (subject to your skiing ability of course...).  Maybe look at what's available from Movement, Black Crows, Whitedot etc.

Also maybe look at some of the womens' freeride or touring skis if you need something a bit shorter? They are often available at around 156 cm.    Skis that are 5 cm longer than your height doesn't sound ideal, and I'm not sure that there is much difference other than graphics with the womens' models.

 

 

 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to CathS:

Solomon Lumen are available in 159 and 99 under foot, they seem to be well recommended

 beardy mike 06 Mar 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Fair comment. Although you could argue that for those times when he has hire ski's, for an extra couple of bucks he could take boots aswell...

 kipman725 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

One thing to consider is cost.  Your plan involces buying two sets of bindings and the additional cost of the insert installation.  The cheap solution is a frame binding like a freeride pro (if your willing to go 2nd hand these are almost free in previous versions) or Marker (less good at touring, better at downhilll).  This plan has the minor restriction that some boots don't work in frame bindings (TLT 5/6/7, La sportiva spitfire), however most heavier touring boots will.  Its worth considering 2nd hand womens freeride skis from ebay etc. as they are often exactly what your looking for and sell for low prices due to the frame bindings.

OP Xharlie 06 Mar 2018
In reply to CathS:

> Also maybe look at some of the womens' freeride or touring skis if you need something a bit shorter? They are often available at around 156 cm.    Skis that are 5 cm longer than your height doesn't sound ideal, and I'm not sure that there is much difference other than graphics with the womens' models.

Why not? I was under the impression that fairly heavily rockered skis should be slightly longer than one is tall? And that +5cm is a rather modest margin.

 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie: I agree, for any reasonably competent skier which I guess you are

 

 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

However over long skis can make kick turns more challenging I'm a couple of inches taller than you and use Whitedot R.98 in 167cm with pin bindings for everything, they work in powder, crud, crust , on piste and touring 

Post edited at 16:38
OP Xharlie 06 Mar 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Hmm... What are the safety concerns for pin bindings? And frame bindings, for that matter? Specifically, with respect to the release and not-breaking-your-leg?

 daWalt 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

if you're definitely, and I mean definitely, going to try getting into touring.... get yo'self:

decent solid touring / backcountry ski,

frame binding (lightweight is fine for you),

solid touring / backcountry* boots,  (* with a proper walk mode)

this'll be your one do it all set. The only question is heavier backcountry setup (like the skis you mention) or a little bit lighter-weight......

 

reasons:

one ski and 2 different bindings is pointless - just look at a frame-type touring binding; these are more than good enough for on piste ski holidays etc. Personally - I would suggest going for the lighter weight of the frame options; you're wee, not a hefty lummox, or hard-charging steeps typa guy you'll be absolutely fine on the lighter options, piste and all... 

so if you've found the right binding type: you might as well get one ski that's decent as and all-round tour / backcountry: any of the mid to heavier (solid) touring skis or lighter backcountry.

and if you've got all that you should just go straight to getting yourself touring boots. having your own boots that actually fit you is a massive, massive plus; I'd even say essential if you want to go multi day or big ascent [skinning uphill is notorious for wrecking feet]. The only drawback is that you can't use touring boots on alpine bindings so no use if you want to hire piste skis [this, imho, is a negligible drawback; you'll have your one do it all ski setup....]

 

 

 

 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

The latest pin bindings have much better twisting release which are DIN certified.  Dynafit Radical 2 twist by releasing the heel (with the toe swivelling, Fritshi release the toe and twist out of the heel.  The older versions of pin bindings were less safe in this respect, there seems to be some debate over whether these latest versions are as safe as normal piste bindings but I'm happy with them.  Normal downhill boots have a smooth sole that press down on the binding plate on piste, or frame type touring bindings.  There have been tests showing that grippy touring soles designed for scrambling over rocks etc incur too much friction on the binding plate to release reliably in a twisting fall, however this may not be borne out in the real world.   I think both types would fit your needs well.  Do your existing boots have a walk mode but no pin sockets? (I assume you have your own boots if you ski 20 days a year)  if so  I would keep with them and concentrate on your choice of skis (with frame bindings) making sure they match your skiing style.  I tried rockers (Cham 97 similar to the Rustler 10 ) and didn't like them at all, preferring a trad camber with tip riser - hence the Whitedot R.98s.  Try and demo different skis before deciding.  If you are booking a course they may have skis you can try; the excellent Snoworks have Salomon Lumens which may also meet your needs.  If you need new boots than you can think  about pin bindings (one reason why I  made the change).  As well as German online retailers you can sometimes get really good late season deals as well as superb advice from specialist UK suppliers.  www.thepisteoffice.com is excellent for touring/free ride gear

 CathS 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:  

>> Also maybe look at some of the womens' freeride or touring skis if you need something a bit shorter? They are often available at around 156 cm.    Skis that are 5 cm longer than your height doesn't sound ideal, and I'm not sure that there is much difference other than graphics with the womens' models.<<

>Why not? I was under the impression that fairly heavily rockered skis should be slightly longer than one is tall? And that +5cm is a rather modest margin.<

The general advice that I was given by both Backcountry UK and the guide on a recent touring trip was to choose a ski length somewhere between the top of your eyebrows and top of the forehead for a touring ski.   There is no reason you can't ski on a slightly longer ski if you are a good skier and it has a large rocker.   But it might prove more cumbersome for doing kick-turns, plus a slightly shorter ski would save you a bit of weight.

Also your earlier post seemed to be lamenting the lack of availability of shorter freeride skis.  I was just suggesting a possible solution...

 

Post edited at 18:59
 kevin stephens 06 Mar 2018
In reply to CathS:

Backcountry are really into touring and give great advice, I bought my first touring gear from them which served me really well, but the skis were too small to ski powder which is one of the OPs requirements, I moved onto longer and fatter skis when my skiing improved and aspirations grew. But as you say heavily rockered skis with a sufficient effective edge can be to long for comfortable kick turns, also not so great for skinning either. I think that correct and considered choice of skis is more important than choice of touring bindings

 David Bennett 06 Mar 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

I do everything you list (resort piste, side piste, back country  and touring) on a single set up of scarpa freedom sl, salomon q90 and marker barons. I think the advice above regarding free ride boots with a proper walk mode and interchangeable soles mated to frame bindings in solid.

Post edited at 19:05
OP Xharlie 07 Mar 2018
In reply to CathS:

It is solid advice, too. And advice that I have taken with boots, before: I wore pink-and-white downhill boots for at least one day, this season, I feel no need to prove my masculinity by wearing "men's" colours.

Is it sometimes the case that women's skis are balanced differently, for a difference centre of gravity? As far as I have read, this *can* sometimes be the case but I have never read a review of a women's ski that has said anything other than: "shorter and in feminine colours on the deck but otherwise identical to the 'wotever' men's version"

Believe it or not, I do not have my own boots at all. The major faff involved in finding gear that fits me, this year, is exactly what prompted this sudden quest to buy kit. If you're skiing on one trip a season and have to deal with one rental shop it is somehow tolerable but as soon as you're doing that several times a season, on several trips, you run into a huge problem: you're spoiled by the better rental shops (small valleys in the Alps -- Sport Müller in Tannheimertal was an absolute pleasure) and completely dissatisfied when you end up with dud kit from bum shops (bigger valleys, like Zillertal) because you have a direct benchmark. I have never really needed my own kit until now. Last season was the first time I skied over 14 days in one year and I was lucky. This year, I had big issues. And, now that we're living only about 3 hours from the Alps, the number of days is only going up every year.

 Martin W 23 Mar 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

> when I was using frame type touring bindings I kept the Alpine soles on my boots and adjusted the binding toe height to suit, this gave me option to use hire skis if I wanted to, and also removed any nagging doubt of grippier pin binding sole impeding lateral release ( the risk of this seems open to debate).

Unlike downhill bindings which tend to rely on a fixed plate of low-friction material under the toe for the boot sole to slide on, frame bindings have a plate which itself slides or pivots, specifically in order to address the increased friction of a touring boot sole.  The theory is that you take the unpredictable variability of the sole/binding interface out of the equation, and instead provide a releasing mechanism whose characteristics you know and can control, because it's wholly a function of the binding itself.


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