Is telemark skiing any good ? And is it hard on the knees

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 Chris the Tall 25 Apr 2017
Last weekend Big Sid (who incidentally is just as tiny as Little Sid) tried to persuade me of the merits of telemark skiing. Now whilst I can understand the merits of XC or skinning up (and done them both), telemarking just looks like hard work on outdated kit. Anyone got an opinion ?

Secondly, given that my wife has only just recovered from 2 weeks skiing in Canada - is it as hard on the knees as it looks ?
 Doug 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:
It makes a lot of sense as a turn if touring on relatively light gear especially on nordic style terrain with rolling hills rather than steep peaks. I learnt on such gear (leather boots, narrow nordic cambered skis) but not sure that's so common any more.

But I'm not so convinced the modern version with heavy gear can be justified by any rationale other than 'its fun'. Give it a try, you may enjoy the extra versatility
Post edited at 14:29
 top cat 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

With modern gear and 'modern' only slight knee bend it's not really that much harder on the knees. And it parallels almost as good as Alpine kit, but you get the added value of a unique and delightful turn.

I've been tele touring since the early 1980's and do have alpine kit too, but rarely use it.

You really need to try it for yourself, but give it a proper test, not just a few hours.
 ed woods 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

- You tend to prefer the beers with the funny names
- You have a selection of wood somewhere in your house 'that might come in handy'
- You find you use (and enjoy using) the word 'progressive'

If 2+ of the above apply, you'll probably get something out of it.

 HeMa 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:


Telemark is not hard on the knee at all. Quads in the other hand...

The benefit of telegear is naturally the betterthanthou stigma you immediately get when lookin' down on your trainin'heels friends. Then you also have 2 additional turns at your disposal with the p-turn same as with alpine. Then naturally the t-turn and lastly the f-Turn aka faceplant turn.
 AdrianC 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Fix the heel - fix the problem.
 d_b 25 Apr 2017
In reply to HeMa:

There's nothing quite like lying face down in the snow with your boots still attached to your skis, which are still pointing forwards.
 summo 25 Apr 2017
In reply to AdrianC:

> Fix the heel - fix the problem.

Free the heel, free the mind.
 beardy mike 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I'm going to offer up a controversial opinion here so you may need to sit down and take a breath.

Its.
Just.
Different.

I ski both, when I'm skiing with novicves I'll often ski tele as it's harder (for me at least) so it puts us on a more level playing field. Is either better? Not really. On piste, alpine gear definitely has the edge. Off piste in changable crust, AT is definitely easier. Off piste in knee deep powder? Tele all the way, just for the snow right up in your face factor as your that bit lower. It's not going to be for everybody, that's for sure.
 Toerag 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I'd never heard of Telemark until I saw a clip of two guys doing it on telly, I'm not sure if it's this one, if not it's very similar. So cool!
youtube.com/watch?v=CUxS9B0IjUQ&
 kevin stephens 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Last weekend Big Sid (who incidentally is just as tiny as Little Sid) tried to persuade me of the merits of telemark skiing. Now whilst I can understand the merits of XC or skinning up (and done them both), telemarking just looks like hard work on outdated kit. Anyone got an opinion ?

Yes, you are right and Nadim is wrong, he knows this but you know what telemark zealots are like

 HeMa 25 Apr 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

> Its.Just.Different.

Blasbemy, I have notified the governing bodies and your license has been revoked. You are here by ordered to stop drinkin' craft and artesan beer, shave your beard and also hand over all your flanel shirts.



 kenr 25 Apr 2017
In reply to top cat:
> I've been tele touring since the early 1980's and do have alpine kit too, but rarely use it.

I knew many Americans who used telemark gear enthusiatically for touring in the 1980's.

Since then they've _all_ switched to modern Alpine touring / randonnee gear.
None of them so much as mentions the old "tele touring" days, let along digging it out of some obscure corner of their basement to "give it a try once more".

Ken
Post edited at 16:49
 kenr 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Doug:
> It makes a lot of sense as a turn if touring on relatively light gear especially
> on nordic style terrain with rolling hills

In most of those "nordic" situations on light gear, the Telemark turn does _not_ makes sense (except as a way to "show off").

Stem Christie or Wedge turns are much easier than Telemark turns on light skis and boots.

Otherwise why did all the telemark skiers switch to ridiculously heavy gear?
. . . (Modern Telemark skis + boots + bindings are generally _heavier_ than modern Alpine Touring gear).

Ken
Post edited at 16:48
 HeMa 25 Apr 2017
In reply to kenr:

> (Modern Telemark skis + boots + bindings are generally _heavier_ than modern Alpine Touring gear).

On fact you're wrong. NTN gear is a tad ligter than equavalent freeride at touring setups. Uberlight miserystix need not apply.

 galpinos 25 Apr 2017
In reply to ed woods:

I think the ultimate question, when you go out for a drink, is it served in a jam jar? If it is, you'll love freeing the heel.....

 airborne 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

There is absolutely no better feeling than floating down a piste on teles. It's somehow much more graceful. BUT be under no illusion, in Europe at least you'll be the centre of attention. So if you cock it up and face plant, everybody knows about it.
 TobyA 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I did maybe 7 days of skiing as an 18/19 year old on alpine gear - my very few first days skiing in NZ, then in Scotland once I had started uni - before getting a now massively old fashioned set of tele gear for my 21st birthday. I then skied solely tele for the next 20 years, including all my ski mountaineering. I've never been a brilliant skier but I remain quietly proud of some of the things I've skied (mainly on some early 00s 'all mountain' skis, a pair of 1st Gen 2 buckle T2s -bought second hand- and 7TM bindings) such as Jiehkkevárri, the highest mountain in Northern Norway and a moderately complicated ascent/descent. Skiing on the little ski hills of Finland tele gave an extra challenge to otherwise 30 second runs, was fine when my kids were first coming skiing with us, and for a long time it meant probably lighter gear than the equivalent AT set up. I did though find that I did fall over more than friends of AT gear and had more difficulty with difficult snow as you may well get touring in the mountains. I borrowed a mate's spare AT gear for a week in Senja a few years back and the rot to my ethical positioning began to creep in. Since coming back to the UK I've skied in Scotland and ski toured in the Lakes on the my tele skis, but all the time thinking "I should get AT kit". I bought some second hand Dynafit boots via UKC and then bought TRip's old set of skis and skins earlier this winter. I've just spent a week in Arctic Norway (over 6000 mtrs of ascent in 6 days of skiing - knackered!) and guess I have to admit that I have become an AT skier. Interestingly even going over to AT gear I still found the skiing down super hard on my thighs (never had a big problem with tele), but that could be doing less cycling and XC since moving back to the UK rather than gear in particular.

I did though see in Norway some wonderful tele skiers youtube.com/watch?v=8uN9ccLs_e8& that made me feel a bit like I was wimping out having left tele behind!

Overall, if you ski well already on normal gear, why not give it a go for a new challenge? You might think, "not for me" and go back to AT, or you might never go back!
 Doug 25 Apr 2017
In reply to kenr:
> In most of those "nordic" situations on light gear, the Telemark turn does _not_ makes sense (except as a way to "show off").Stem Christie or Wedge turns are much easier than Telemark turns on light skis and boots.

depends on the snow, often telemark turns are easier, way back when (1930s ?), Arnold Lunn described 'telemark crust' as an example - see his Alpine Ski-ing at All Heights and Seasons

The switch to heavier gear was to help ski steeper slopes & more difficult snow conditions
Post edited at 19:25
 beardy mike 25 Apr 2017
In reply to kenr:

> In most of those "nordic" situations on light gear, the Telemark turn does _not_ makes sense (except as a way to "show off").Stem Christie or Wedge turns are much easier than Telemark turns on light skis and boots. Otherwise why did all the telemark skiers switch to ridiculously heavy gear?. . . (Modern Telemark skis + boots + bindings are generally _heavier_ than modern Alpine Touring gear).Ken

What on earth are you on about man? Pulling a Tele stabilises your position by spreading your weight evenly between your feet. Stem Christies and Wedge turns yeah great on AT but on Tele skis? Nah you're ok thanks... Tele turns will do fine. As for weight? Seriously I have no idea what you mean. Skis themselves are the same skis, bindings vary but you can get very light tele kit, as light as AT kit, all bar the most super light pin bindings which are only any use for Skimo racing and flippin useless for real back country skiing. There's lots opf other reasons not to Tele but that ain't one of them!
 TobyA 25 Apr 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

> , all bar the most super light pin bindings which are only any use for Skimo racing and flippin useless for real back country skiing.

Maybe a pair of simple cable bindings weigh about the same as average tech bindings but look a the NTN! Heavy stuff.

My mates seem to have no problems at all skiing "real back country" on tiny pin bindings and my Plums aren't that bulky (less than my 7tms) and they seem like 'proper' bindings.

 beardy mike 25 Apr 2017
In reply to TobyA:

Sure, but as previously stated, thereis a world of difference between a heavy duty NTN binding and a TLT Speed. A Dynafit beast is 950g, a Fritschi Freeride (which is still massively popular) is 2000g, a marker duke is 2750g, so a Freedom tour at 1500kg is hardly a heavy weight - only when you compare to pin bindings. Then of course there is the Meidjo which is NTN compatible which is 850g with full touring mode. By comparison a TLT Radical ST is 750g - so not much in it for a comparible binding. So not that much in it. OK, so you can go really lightweight with pin bindings, but as I said previously, you start losing durability, the heel steps are not as effective and they are harder to get into. My point was that KenR's claim that the gear is really heavy is simply not true - there is a range from pretty light to not really very heavy.
 TobyA 25 Apr 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

I guess I'm just basing my experience from last week in Lyngen - I reckon 80 to 90 percent of AT skiers were on pin bindings, with things like the Speeds seeming most common. Out of the twelve or so people who passed through our house over the time I was there, and who I went skiing with, I think only one had frame bindings.

I quite like the look of Meidjo with a super light heel piece for when conditions are against you, but along with the right type of boots its a pricey option!
In reply to Chris the Tall:

It is not necessarily hard on the knees but back country XC skiing is *strenuous*. It is definitely a good idea to practice with Telemarks on groomed pistes to start with, with chair lift support. I didn't. I did a two-day back country trip in the Canadian Rockies on Telemarks with a 25 lb pack on my back and no prior experience of this type of ski. At the end of two days, I was nearly crippled!
paraffin 25 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:
F'in hilarious troll.

Here is my list of broad categories of commentators or participants to the tele style:
1. Adoring bystanders who just love the elegance . . . but would never dare
2. Retired / lazy / injured / failed / gear freaks. . . I did it once but the gear weighs more than my latest AT gear
3. Opinionated & intolerant . . . that just looks weird and should be banned along with snow-boarding, snow blades etc.
4. Attention seekers . . . news is no one cares if you telemark
5. Tele-zealot. . . since I discovered the telemark turn, it has made me a better person
6. It is not a religion . . . it is just a way of getting about the snow covered hills.
Post edited at 23:04
In reply to TobyA:

> and my Plums aren't that bulky

I read that as meaning "my balls aren't that big"...
 dmhigg 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Back corries of Aonach Mor: AT kit

Cairngorm Macdui Etchachan Cairngorm loop: Tele's.
 d_b 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I like tele skiing but effectively gave it up a few years ago. My basic problem was that you have to be a better skier to get things done on tele kit than you do with alpine kit, and only having time & money for a week or two per year I was never going to get good enough.

If you are already a good skier then it is probably worth a go.
 James Rushforth Global Crag Moderator 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Chicks dig it...
 HeMa 26 Apr 2017
In reply to James Rushforth:
True, chicks dig doods that go down
Post edited at 13:45
 John2 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I've just got back from a ski trip to France. A guide whom I know used to be in the French telemark team, and I've never before seen him skiing on anything other than telemarks. This year he was skiing on Alpine touring skis, and when I asked he said it was because he had a bad knee.
 DaveHK 26 Apr 2017
In reply to davidbeynon:

> I like tele skiing but effectively gave it up a few years ago. My basic problem was that you have to be a better skier to get things done on tele kit than you do with alpine kit,

The flip side of that is that if you tele you've got a ready made excuse for backing off stuff. 'I'd do that but not on the teles...'
 daWalt 26 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

no one seems to have linked to this already - should answer a few of your queries.
youtube.com/watch?v=AMlMb_X_71E&
 Doug 26 Apr 2017
In reply to daWalt:

Thanks for that, I'd thought about it but the only link I had was to Telemarktips.com which no longer exists. I also remember a video about how to hunt telemark skiers but a quick google didn't find it
 freeheel47 30 Apr 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Hello Chris-first define "good" and "hard".

Telemarking is as pointless / good as anything else we all do- climb, ski alpine, nose pick. It has a number of advantages and disadvantages compared to alpine skiing / AT skiing.

advantages
1. It is difficult- so learning is fun, a new skill
2. It is slower than alpine- so you can ski with friends / family kids and still have a good time / ski together- it is a fantastic leveler
3. It is much much more effort- so you get a good work out.
4. Gear is hard to come by- so it can be much easier to get it second had from ebay than in a shop- i.e. boots and bindings. And for cheap all my telebindings have been from ebay and all but one of the boots I've bought for me and the family.
5. Telemarkers are very friendly and sociable. You will invariably stop and chat with other pinheads (at least this is what happens to us). Doing this we have skied with amazing telemark skiers (I really mean amazing) for anything from a run or two to half a day or more. People with astonishing skills that they have been quite happy to share for nothing other than a little bit of a chat and shared interest.- For example a fortnight ago we skied with Britain's most successful skier ever and her coach- it is not normal for a World up skier to ski with a 15 year old and his dad so that she and her coach can check out the lads skiing- but that is excatly what telemarking is like. Similarly we have skied with a French telemark club- they were more than happy to take us along- they were all amazing, and fun and (un)surprisingly we have many many shared interests.
6. When you nail telemark turns is can be a bit of a spiritual experience- it is a great feeling..really...
7. Chicks dig it (allegedly)

Disadvantages
1. It is difficult- so learning involes going really slowly, falling over repeatedly, pain and humiliation. at first just putting the bloody skis on is a nightmare.
2. It is slower than alpine- so you can be certain thta the phrase 'hey guys wait up' will be one you use repeateldy- your 8 year old child will be able to ski faster than you.
3. It is much much more effort- so your quads and butt will scream in agony. Stairs will present untold misery- sleep will be punctuated by leg cramps and the prospect of sitting on the toilet will fill you with dread. Ibuprofen will become your only solace.
4. Gear is hard to come by. You cannot buy it most places. Whne you can it is crazy expensive. Bindings start at about #180 and go to #500. Boots are amongst the most expensive ski boots you can buy (not including exotic carbon fiber boots). They mostly don't take crampons so well. Trying to find kids telelgear is a bit like the search for the Holy Grail.
5. Telemarkers are very friendly and sociable. Some are really quite strange. Many wear llama hats (fair trad organic llama hats knitted from their own pubes), most hold quite odd beliefs
6. When you nail telemark turns you are quite likely to fall over face first.
7. Chicks dig it - this is a myth.

see also
youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-Xlkf3rLM&
youtube.com/watch?v=_RQdbpZ-Nz4&
vimeo.com/18511805
 Dave 01 May 2017
In reply to galpinos:

> I think the ultimate question, when you go out for a drink, is it served in a jam jar? If it is, you'll love freeing the heel.....

I have to say, that was good.
 freeheel47 08 May 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Basically skiing is all about showing off.

People mock telemarking because telemarkers show off better than them.

BOOM!
James Jackson 08 May 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

My heels are definitely in the 'clipped in' camp, but I think telemarking just looks so cool. That said, I always reckon telemarkers know that, and have this assumption that they must ski around feeling so smug.

But... You never see a bad telemarker. I presume they are all face-planted and still stuck on a beginner piste somewhere. Have no idea how they train, as you see plenty of bad fixed-heel skiers getting around!
 TobyA 09 May 2017
In reply to James Jackson:

Perhaps you just don't know enough to know it's bad? Or just come and watch me tele if you want to see bad tele.

Here's someone who knows how to do it youtube.com/watch?v=8uN9ccLs_e8& I happened to catch him a few weeks ago as he went past me. Tricky snow, and maybe not quite no-fall terrain, but with the cliffs either side of us, there wasn't too much room to make mistakes (I had crampons on and had left my skis a hundred metres lower down!).
 ben b 09 May 2017
In reply to TobyA:

That's not particularly good tele-form though is it? Admittedly tough snow and terrain and a zillion times better than I could manage, but I see your Norwegian and raise you one John Eames:
youtube.com/watch?v=YxFW83rB9x8&
John and Bonny taught us the basics and we have been serially undoing all their good work for many years. The recent trip telemarking in Iceland (and by the look of it exploring various microbreweries afterwards) looked fantastic!

cheers

b

 TobyA 09 May 2017
In reply to ben b:

When he hit the powder on the hanging glacier below it was pretty cool to watch, but there is something cool about in control combat skiing too.
 ben b 09 May 2017
In reply to TobyA:

What a fantastic trip that must have been

B
paraffin 10 May 2017
In reply to TobyA:
Despite the circumstances that is not a good demontration of teleing.

Everyone has their own style. I skied with an ESF instructor and he teled with most of his weight on his leading front foot and leaning into the turn, getting down low (Nu school) and quite jerky and ugly. You can get away with this on NTN gear stiff legging the turn.

Anyways after 2 days of trailing behind him, ESF guy had to have a rest day come the third day!

I am a lentil munching devotee of old skool. 75-90% pressing down on ball of rear raised foot and lots of body counter rotation and angulation. Looks and feels way more elegant and smooth.
Saying that for the past two seasons on my freeheel gear, I have resorted quite frequently to parallel alpine turns because of lack of strength in my quads, long back-to-back days trying to preserve energy, not having a need to appear as an eccentric show off and finally sheer fear at great speed.
As far as I know there has never been a rule forbidding mixing up of the styles.

 Graham 11 May 2017
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I tele-ed for about 10 years. It is by far the dumbest way to go downhill. It's not that hard on the knees and it does feel pretty cool when you get it right, but just spare yourself the stupidity.
paraffin 11 May 2017
In reply to Graham:

> I tele-ed for about 10 years. It is by far the dumbest way to go downhill. It's not that hard on the knees and it does feel pretty cool when you get it right, but just spare yourself the stupidity.

Yes indeed, alpine skiing, snowboarding, ski bobing, zorbing, snow blading, poly bagging, sledging, ski biking, glissading and falling head first down the slope are all way more cool.

BTW Are you still free heeling, Graham?

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