First set of ski touring equipment

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stoker 25 Jul 2018

Hi. I'm a gear head, but on skis I could use some schooling.
I'm looking for ski's, skins, bindings and boots.

Next year, I would like to do my first week of ski touring. 
I have little off piste experience, on piste I'm so so. (decent on red, I survive black)
1m90, 83 kg.
I'm not looking for a top performing competition set of gear. The weight is not the first priority either. I'm more likely to loose time downhill (and eat snow)

Who could point me in the right direction?
(first step is get my mind set what type of gear I need, second step is use the off-season bargains?)

any feedback is welcom, thanks!

 Jim 1003 25 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Buy a frame binding you can use on and off piste, probably you'll struggle to ski tour with your present ability, you'll be able to go up okay, but coming down not so good. Better to stick to side country a bit longer, unless you want to have an increased risk of injury. Avoid a wearing a heavy sack skiing for now. 

1
mysterion 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Too much personal preference gets expressed in these sort of threads, lots of 'my boots really fit my feet well' sort of replies. I would say get some solid off-piste experience first then buy based on your own freeride/touring compromise.

Post edited at 00:13
 Stairclimber 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Bear in mind that a day pass costs more than hiring all the equipment for a day and not using the lifts. Try various good modern gear options before you try and save money and end up with something that you have to immediately replace. The lighter options for going uphill are not so easy to ski down on. Everything is expensive. Actually owning all the kit may not be your best option especially if you add airline costs and servicing. Work out how many days you are going to get to use it as all in you will be paying around 1000 euros. 

 kevin stephens 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Spend more money on lessons, less on gear

 Tim Davies 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Agree with lots of the above especially the improve your piste/ off piste skiing first. This prevents the frustrating/ exhausting falls in anything but perfect off piste conditions. 

Don't buy frame bindings. Go straight for the dynafit style binding that weight kgs less. You'll only end up buying twice when you realise how much better they are. 

1
 chiroshi 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

If it is your first time touring, definitely rent from a reputable shop. Bear in mind that you will also need a transceiver, shovel and probe at a bare minimum, so you're probably looking at £1500 all in to buy everything straight away. 

The first thing I would buy (after safety equipment) would be a really good pair of boots that are moulded to your feet. You could even buy a good pair of second hand boots and get new liners fitted. Go to a shop that is either local to you, or buy them when you get to resort. Resort prices will be higher, but you can go back every single day of your holiday and get adjustments made. If you get your boots fitted in the uk, you are stuck paying for the extra service in resort if you start to get hotspots etc.

Good boots are especially important for touring, as the upper part of the boot is normally loosened off. This is the part that most people crank down to get poorly fitting boots to hold them in, so as soon as you loosen it, your feet are sloshing around and rubbing whilst you're lifting your skis on every step. 

Having said all that, if you  only "survive" on a black, I would seriously consider some more lessons before going ski touring. In the Alps, good conditions are rare (especially for a whole week) so you are likely to be skiing in crusty, uneven windblown snowpack. Which if you are not a confident skier and have been slogging up 1000m for the whole morning, you are not going to enjoy yourself. Book an off-piste guide for a few days and learn how to ski properly in ungroomed snow, your knees will thank you for it!

In reply to stoker:

Hi Stoker

There is some good advice about kit above, what works for one doesn't always work for another.

What skis do you use for piste? if just the bog standard ski hire ones, its worth hiring and playing around with different styles of ski's and brand's to get a feel of what the difference is in terms of width and flex etc.

if you want to try and make best use of off season sales and you haven't already got them look for avalanche safety kit. 

the Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/371892739934801/?multi_permalinks=493339671... some times has good deals on it.

cheers

 Dark-Cloud 26 Jul 2018
In reply to Tim Davies:

The OP's comment doesn't really go hand in hand with tech bindings: I'm more likely to loose time downhill (and eat snow) 

 John2 26 Jul 2018
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

The only tech bindings that I would recommend him would be either the Fritschi Vipec or the Fritschi Tecton, which both have a DIN release at the toe. I use the Vipecs and have found them very good.

2
 tehmarks 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Boots: go to a shop that really knows and does boots, and get properly fitted. I'd recommend Backcountry UK in Yorkshire, if you're looking to buy in the UK.

Bindings: if you suspect you're likely to be eating snow on the downhill, be wary about lightweight tech bindings that have lateral release at the heel rather than toe. I'm currently sporting some meccano in my leg from a non-event fall that broke my tibia, which I suspect would have had a better outcome with something like the Fritschi Vipec.

 Carless 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Lots of good and (I think) independent advice from these guys

https://www.alpine-guides.com/ski/insider-knowledge-ski/ski-touring-equipme...

https://www.alpine-guides.com/ski/insider-knowledge-ski/choosing-ski-setup-...

 

I'd also recommend something like the Vipec or Teton if you want one set of gear to do everything

A very good skier friend ripped her ACL earlier this year, seemingly for little reason, with very lightweight pin bindings

 kevin stephens 26 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Ski touring and back country skiing is brilliant, it's great to leave the piste markers and start to get the feeling of exploring in the mountains.

Skinning uphill is relatively easy and it may take a day to master, including kick turns 

Skiing off piste downhill in the range of snow conditions you are likely to find without falling over a lot and hurting yourself takes a lot longer to learn and is counter intuitive for most people to learn so proper lessons are essentisal.  Self taught skiers are usually easy to spot! Snoworks All Terrain courses are highly recommended.

As everyone else has said buying well fitted (ie customised and moulded to your feet) boots and foot beds are essential in order to ski and learn to ski effectively, so go to a well recommended boot fitter.  Depending on where you live Snowheads forum will be able to recommend a fitter.  You would be very lucky to get cheap last season deals that suit you - be prepared to wait for start of next season and pay full price - in this case it is definitely buy cheap, buy twice.  Full on touring boots have a Vibram rockered sole and pin binding fittings and won't fit normal downhill bindings. I wouldn't recommend these for your level.  A wide range of boots often labelled as "free ride" that have a walk mode, flatter and often interchangeable soles and can fit pin bindings and frame bindings would be better.

Also you should buy a transceiver, shovel and probe and practice their use at an early stage.

Although I use pin bindings now I wouldn't recommend them at first, they take some time to get used to and are not as versatile.  As I mentioned above its all about learning to ski down off piste and you would be better hiring skis/bindings at first.  As you develop your skiing ability will outgrow your skis much faster then your boots.  Most 100mm under foot skis will be good for learning off piste.  Also it is possible to hire skis with frame type touring bindings (with skins) in resort but very rarely pin bindings.

When your skiing develops to a level that you know what ski suits you best you will want to buy your own skis and bindings (frame or pin) - it's not about which is cheaper; renting or buying but one sort of faff vs another.  Personally I'm happy with the faff and ski carriage cost of owning my own skis because they are familiar to ski on. Pin bindings are much nicer for going up hill and now just as good going downhill. You will often hear the Vipec vs Dynafit argument, the latest versions of both now have DIN certified release.  After lots of research I went for the Dynafit Radical 2 instead of Vipec (or whatever superseded them ) which I'm very happy with- but as I said no need to worry about that until your skiing is a lot better.

So to summarise buy boots, avi gear, lessons and enjoy.

 John2 26 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

I thought the Dynafit Radical only had a DIN release at the back, not at the toe.

 kevin stephens 26 Jul 2018
In reply to John2:

In a twisting fall the heel releases and the toe pops out, whereas the Vipec is the other way round.  The latest version Radical 2 has elasticity in the toe which makes this work very well -certainly not a problem when I've had twisting falls

The guys at Backcountry UK (Vipec dealers) and Piste Office (Dynafit) would probably argue forever on this.  Vipecs also seem to have a reputation for breaking at inconvenient times, not sure if this is still deserved.

 

 Carless 26 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Interesting - I didn't know that the toe could pop out on the Radical 2. I thought it just could rotate after the heel had released

 

I think only the 1st gen Vipecs were renowned for problems. They're now on 4th generation

One advantage of the Vipec that I didn't consider important at the beginning was the being able to release & re-engage the heel with not removing the ski. Having now go used to it, it's a big advantage

 John2 26 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Is there a DIN scale on the toe of the Radicals? The Vipec has separate DIN scales for the toe and the heel. Incidentally, I think the Tecton is safer than the Vipec because there is more elasticity in the heel.

 kevin stephens 26 Jul 2018
In reply to John2:

No. I in a twisting fall the heel twists out in accordance with its lateral Din setting and the elasticity in the toe allows this to happen. Unlike alpine bindings which the heel only releases in a face plant type fall, relying on the toes for lateral twisting release.  The Dynafit heel piece has a separate DIN setting for a forward face plant type fall

So both Radical and Vipec bindings have DIN settings for twisting and face plant release

Post edited at 18:28
 John2 26 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

But not independently adjustable ones.

 kevin stephens 26 Jul 2018
In reply to John2:yes independently adjustable on the Radical 2, there are separate screws for lateral and vertical release, which you can set to different values should you wish

 

stoker 26 Jul 2018

Thanks for the info.

Avalanche kit (and knowledge): check
Getting lessons: Check
I'm from Belgium and do my skiing in the alps. The shopping will have to happen next season in the alps I suppose. 
One of my main objectives is getting rid of the snowshoes during alpine approaches in springtime. 

The message that arrived: consider buying boots. Frame binding would be the better choice for my situation. Skis: do some of the better renting first.

 John2 26 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Look, I'm not a Fritschi zealot or anything I'm just trying to establish the truth. 'The toe piece of all Dynafit bindings has no adjustable DIN'

 https://theskimonster.com/blog/posts/how-to-adjust-your-dynafit-ski-binding...

 kevin stephens 26 Jul 2018
In reply to John2:

yes that's what I said, you may need to read my post again more carefully?  On the Dynafit Radical the separate lateral and vertical DIN adjustments are both in the heel piece.  

 John2 26 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

So there's no DIN adjustment in the toe piece. That's why some people think the Fritschi is safer - the toe piece release on the Dynafit is set to a 'one size fits all' DIN value.

 kevin stephens 26 Jul 2018
In reply to John2: . No. We are simply comparing how the binding releases in a lateral twisting force, either at the toe or at the heel, both Din certified

 

 John2 27 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

This is getting silly. 'The toe piece of all Dynafit bindings has no adjustable DIN, but the four springs located within the toe rests around a 4 DIN'. https://theskimonster.com/blog/posts/how-to-adjust-your-dynafit-ski-binding...

That's all I'm saying - of course the Dynafits will eventually release at the toe, but the DIN setting at the toe is not adjustable.

 kevin stephens 27 Jul 2018
In reply to John2:

Yes I read that sentence, I think it is misleading, I think they are talking about DIN 4 being the spring tension to engage the elasticity of the toe piece swing rather than the release value, otherwise a release value of 4 would be far too low for anybody but a first day beginner.  If you read the sentences immediately following your quote you will see what I mean which explains how the heel lateral RELEASE  DIN is set.  Your assertion that "the Dynafits will eventually release at the toe" misses the point.  My release is set at 6. if I exceed this forece laterally the heel release so the toes just pops out. 

Post edited at 08:17
 TomGB 27 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Don't get frame bindings. Unless you decide you suddenly hate ski touring then you will 100% be replacing them by the next season, if not half way through the first one! Just get better at skiing first and rent kit until you're happy on PIN bindings. 

Or do what I'm doing and get the new Salomon Shift bindings which are PIN for the uphill and full Alpine for the down. Jon and the Piste Office is doing a good pre-order deal. I'll be using them for all of my skiing resort and touring. 

 John2 27 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

No, the two horizontally opposed pins clamp into the sockets in the boot with a DIN force of 4. When the front of the boot releases from the ski there is always that non-adjustable force to overcome.

 GarethSL 27 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

> One of my main objectives is getting rid of the snowshoes during alpine approaches in springtime.

If this is your main motivation then perhaps consider the lightest weight ski set up you can. If you're aiming at doing more skiing than climbing then its probably worth getting a more burly set up and following the advice above.

I got an "approach ski" set up last year, I went with a short, lightweight ski (Fischer trans alp 80's in 163) and stuck some lightweight bindings with breaks on them (Dynafit Superlight 2.0). This is intended for approaching ice/ winter climbs where I may or may not climb with the skis, but also has the caveat of being great for longer hut to hut tours, where weight is a bigger consideration than a day trip.

Yes, they ski like a lightweight ski and are a bit unwieldy in crusted snow. I had to learn my way around this, but it was also a very fun process. However, the weight savings are amazing and I can arrive at an climb in good shape. The short length makes uphill kick turns super easy, they fit well to a pack if needed and allow for snappy turns in rocky terrain or when coming back though the treeline on the descent.

They are a little narrow with an 80mm waist, but I find this is perfect for the wide range of snow conditions, or just generally crap conditions, often encountered here in Norway. They have a good rocker which helps handling deeper powder snow and I'm yet to wish I had a wider ski.

The bindings are fiddly if they get icy but so far I haven't had any issues with them. Never experienced a premature release, even when skiing with a heavier pack than normal. When skiing with them on piste I don't bother adjusting the DIN as it's only ever released when needed. Learning to crash safely can also help in avoiding injury.

Boots wise, you're either going to have to carry your mountain boots if you plan on doing something technical or get a ski boot that can climb. IIRC some of the La Sportiva boots got quite good ratings for climbing as did some of the Scarpa models. Of course, the go to boot is now the Procline. Which are marketed more as a climbing boot that can ski. They have a very low instep and a narrow ankle, which can make them very painful unless you get them adjusted, but then climbing performance can suffer! Also probably wont suit your wide feet as they have a pretty narrow toe box.

If you're going to prioritise climbing, then perhaps consider this approach. You will be able to ski them regardless and most set up's will handle most things. However, if you aim to focus more on touring then there is great advice given from this perspective above.

stoker 27 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

pffff

I'll sleep over it and will certainly consider renting for another season and try to rent as close to what I would consider buying.

 Aly 27 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

You've had a lot of advice already, and of course some very differing opinions which must make it make hard for somebody starting out!

My 2p's worth, if you are interested is below.

It sounds like you are based in Europe, and will be doing most of your skiing/alpine climbing in the alps.  I think you need to decide exactly what you want the skis for.  If you are purely focussed on climbing, and skis are a means to end to access routes in winter/spring.  And if you are unlikely to want to go off piste skiing, or touring for fun as an activity on its own then a more lightweight or approach setup may work to get you to and from the base of your route.  If so ignore what I've written below.

 

If, however, you also enjoy skiing, and want to continue to enjoy it in a more adventurous environment (which I suspect might be the case given you have obviously got a fair bit of experience skiing in resort) then I think you would probably reap far more benefit from a bit of a more conventional setup in the long run.  It sounds like you don't want to win any races up to the top of the col but would rather work a little harder and get to the bottom having enjoyed the skiing a bit more (and with your knees intact).  If so this is what I'd suggest.

 

Buying some boots is a good first step, a good fit will make your days far more enjoyable whilst you can continue to rent ski touring gear to try out some different setups.  Touring boots are expensive, and there is a huge range of styles from 'incredibly lightweight, great for walking' to 'downhill raceboot performance'.  I'd suggest getting one closer to the 'heavier' end of the market - modern touring boots and plastics are still very light really - and will make actually skiing them much easier.  I'd be tempted to try and get something in the region of 110-120 flex and 1600/1700g per boot(ish).  Lighter boots are great for more experienced tourers but until you get better at skiing off piste I think you'll appreciate them.  You can still climb in such boots if you wish as well.  Boots with tech inserts would be a wise investment as you can then ski them with any kind of binding and, although I'm not sure pin bindings would be the best intro for you, they are 'future proof' if you decide to go for tech bindings in the future.  A good shop specialising in touring boots will get you a good fit with insoles and moulding liners etc.

 

Some lessons would also be of value, perhaps a day or so of an off-piste technique course.  Ski touring involves a skiing a huge range of snow conditions and, whilst not always harder then skiing on piste (well, usually it is) it's certainly very different.  Any extra days on piste will also help, being utterly comfortable on every 'piste' the resort can throw at you, in any condition, will make the transition to touring much easier (though this is definitely not a pre-requisite).

 

As for skis, renting is a good way to have a play at it and see what skis and bindings you do/don't like.  Do you have your own resort skis/boots?  It sounds like you are reasonably competent on skis but could still make improvements (chilled on reds, pushing it a bit more on blacks), is that fair?  If so then I think when it comes to the variable conditions you will encounter off piste a slightly heavier ski and a frame style step-in AT binding would probably be my choice over a light touring ski and a pin binding.  Granted, in good snow conditions the differences will be small, but when you are skiing hard wind-affected snow, breakable crust or heavy spring corn a bit more weight in the ski and the elasticity of an alpine-style binding (along with the added security of toe and heel DIN release*) may make the difference between making a nasty descent un-noteworthy, and falling over every single turn.  Bindings like the Marker Tour ski much like a downhill binding and something like that would be a good compromise of ski-ability, safety and weight.  For comparison the Tour 10 weighs 1700g per pair, and the Dynafit Radical weighs 1100g per pair.  A big difference on one hand, but only 600g on the other, on a total foot weight (skis/boots/bindings/skins) which is probably going to be in the region of 8-9kg.  Remember you can always swap to tech bindings a year or so down the line if you so wish.  I have done a good mix of skiing, my preference is always for touring or off piste and I've never really found a massive benefit to pin bindings over classic AT bindings 95% of the time.  I may sweat a little more but am rarely much (any) slower than everyone else, and am more comfortable and confident on the downhill.  Having said that multi-day tours and very big climbs are rarely my itinerary of choice.

For skis, I'd go 'middle of the range' weight wise.  You'll be looking for quite a big ski, at least 180 if not approaching 190ish at your height (a bit longer than your piste skis).  Around 90-100mm at the waist is what people seem to be skiing now as a good combination of all-round ability.  A little thinner will be lighter, and handle hardpack better but be less fun in the soft stuff.  If you are used to piste skis you might find something closer to 90mm feels a bit more familiar.  Again, hiring a few different skis will give you a flavour of what's on offer.  Don't go too rockered or too fat for starters.  You may find something suitable second hand, and it would be worth having a look for ex-rental touring setups in places like Intersport, Snell's etc. if you are in the alps over the summer.  I'm going nowhere near the minefield that is 'what ski should I buy', most of the big brands all make good skis, but I guess as a very rough rule of thumb if you are getting down below 1600-1700g per ski then you are starting to get pretty lightweight - great for a pure touring ski, a little less good if you are still learning and want to ski a bit of everything on them.

 

I reckon if you are keen on getting into touring then the kind of setup I have outlined above would be a good starter.  It will give you most of the benefits of having kit that is fun to ski on, and more forgiving on the downhill when you encounter chopped, icy, heavy, unskiable crud whilst not being so heavy that it holds you back on anything but the most arduous of days.  Furthermore it would be fairly easy to convert to either a lighter set-up if you felt you needed it in the future, or a more freeride ski if that is what floats your boat a season or so down the line. 

Hope that doesn't muddy the waters still further!

 

*without wanting to get into the whole dynafit/fritschi DIN release argument.  Pin bindings are certainly improving, and whilst I have found them less easy to ski, and more unpredictable many others don't.  To further complicate things (and in the interests of full disclosure) I have just bought a pair of the half-way-house Fritschi Tectons.  If you are particularly keen on the weight savings of a tech binding then something like these would be very reasonable to consider (though I haven't skiied them yet).

Post edited at 14:40
 CathS 27 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

With the ski ability you've described, unless you have an unlimited budget, I would invest the £1500-odd quid that you might spend on a full touring set up on some courses or lessons to improve your off piste skiing first.

I'd also recommend Snoworks All Terrain courses as suggested by one of the earlier posts.  These provided me with the gateway for starting ski touring.

 

Phil Ev 28 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Phil from Backcountry UK here.

 

Just for the record, we sell lots of pin bindings from Dynafit and Fritschi along with many other brands.

 

There are good things and bad things about all of them and no right or wrong with choice.

 

I don't want to get drawn in to the finer detail here but anyone wanting our take on suitability can always get in touch with us at the shop.

 

Thanks

Post edited at 14:08
 kevin stephens 29 Jul 2018
In reply to John2:

> No, the two horizontally opposed pins clamp into the sockets in the boot with a DIN force of 4. When the front of the boot releases from the ski there is always that non-adjustable force to overcome.

But as far as I am aware there's no evidence that actually results in injuries, certainly I've not known any users having problems.  It's a little like the relatively recent argument that you shouldn't use vibram type soles in frame touring bindings because the increased friction on the pressure plate will impede a lateral release.  I purchased my original Scarpa Denalis with Vibram rocker sole and Fritschi Eagle bindings from Backcountry UK and used them for all my skiing for several years without any problems, and again there does not seem to be any evidence that this actually results in injury.

What is less contentious is that the latest generation of tech bindings, whether Vipec or Radical 2/Rotation have improved immeasurably over recent years, and many users (myself included) find them satisfactory for all skiing, piste, off piste or touring when combined with a suitable ski, eg Whitedot R.98 or Black Crows Camox Freebird

 

 OwenM 29 Jul 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

>  the relatively recent argument that you shouldn't use vibram type soles in frame touring bindings because the increased friction on the pressure plate will impede a lateral release. 

 

I think the issue is with using vibram soles in Alpine bindings, i.e. downhill bindings rather than frame type bindings which were made for use with touring boots. 

 

Post edited at 14:15
 nuts and bolts 29 Jul 2018
In reply to stoker:

Would agree with most of the replies you have had but up front is learn to ski different off piste conditions before doing any serious touring. You can encounter all sorts from deep powder, soft slush, breakable crust, rocks, narrow gullies, trees, rutted ice......., sometimes all on one run.

Remember it can be exhausting if you fall over a lot and the more tired you get the worse you ski technique becomes. 

Good time to buy gear though - I saved a third on my touring setup by buying now. 

 Jim 1003 02 Aug 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

> But as far as I am aware there's no evidence that actually results in injuries, certainly I've not known any users having problems.  It's a little like the relatively recent argument that you shouldn't use vibram type soles in frame touring bindings because the increased friction on the pressure plate will impede a lateral release.  I purchased my original Scarpa Denalis with Vibram rocker sole and Fritschi Eagle bindings from Backcountry UK and used them for all my skiing for several years without any problems, and again there does not seem to be any evidence that this actually results in injury.

> What is less contentious is that the latest generation of tech bindings, whether Vipec or Radical 2/Rotation have improved immeasurably over recent years, and many users (myself included) find them satisfactory for all skiing, piste, off piste or touring when combined with a suitable ski, eg Whitedot R.98 or Black Crows Camox Freebird

Complete pish

2
 StuDoig 02 Aug 2018
In reply to stoker:

I'd agree with folk to rent initially and see if you're actually that keen!  If you then decide to buy kit, try ex-hire rigs.  I managed to pick up Ski's, Bindings and skins for £160.  Decent nick and certainly more than up to anything that I can ski!  If you get more seriously into it then you can look to upgrade later and use the ex hire stuff for early/late season when you'll be scraping a lot or rocks/heather!

2nd hand boots may work, but getting a comfortable pair of boots makes or breaks the day for me!  Worth going to a specialist shop and getting fitted up properly unless you really know what you are buying.

Cheers,

Stu

 chiroshi 02 Aug 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

I agree, complete rubbish. But this thread is advice for a first time buyer, not an argument about different binding / boot configurations! If anyone is really that interested then start a new thread rather than filling this with unsubstantiated arguments.

I think stoker has plenty of advice to go on, so just get out there, go to a few shops, ask questions and find what suits you!


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