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z2 runs in hilly terrain

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 Stone Muppet 17 May 2020

Following another thread I'm trying to run in my z2 aerobic zone to build endurance and ability to burn fat instead of carbs on mountain days. (I may also be aerobically deficient, not sure).

Of course it's quite hard to run up even a moderate hill without breaking into z3. Some would say the right thing is to slow down and walk then, but how much does it matter?

If I spend 15 minutes of a hour long run in z3 and the rest in z2, does that do the job or does it defeat the whole purpose?

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 gazhbo 17 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

It depends how you’re calculating the zones.  If you’re basing it off a running watch it’s probably so inaccurate as to be meaningless.  
 

You’ll know how much effort you’re putting in.  I can’t see that there can be much benefit to completely stopping on the hill.

I don’t think it matters too much for your purposes if you work a bit harder getting up the odd hill.

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 Stone Muppet 17 May 2020
In reply to gazhbo:

From a chest monitor, zone limit currently based on nose breathing test but was planning to do heart rate drift on a treadmill when lockdown ends. Too hilly to do it outdoors here.

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 SouthernSteve 17 May 2020
In reply to gazhbo:

It is really difficult. We live at the top of a hill, so easy out, very tricky back. I can manage zone 2 (based on reserve - not just max HR) about 80% of the run. I do sometimes run-walk but it never matches the correct bit of the route! I wouldn't be too concerned based on your figures, but are they meaningful. I don't find the correlation between the 'difficulty of the run based on HR' and how I feel the next day so running by feel might be a better option. Strava interprets all your runs like and you can be getting quite a lot fitter whilst Strava tells you things are declining particularly as the seasons change.  

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 Dave B 17 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

The 80/20 is often about having the ability to add volume to training with recovery and without injury.  If your are limited to say 3x40 mins per week, I'm not sure doing almost all of that in zone 2 is useful. You'll spend a max of 24 mins in z3-5 doing 80/20. You may well find you can do most of those sessions in the Z3-5. 

If you are spending 10 hours a week training, you'd spend the same amount of time 120 mins in the upper zones, but still have 8 hours of other training. You can't do all of that in the upper zones. Hence the easy areas. 

Look at the recovery your getting from the 3*40 and the 10 hours. Loads more with the less hours work. However, you definitely won't be as 'fast' as the longer training athlete. 

Are you spending time outside of zone 2 the rest of the week? E. G. Zone 3-5?

Do you drop to zone 1/low 2 on downhills? 

There is no magic change between the zones, but a continuum. Low z3 is almost the same as high zone 2. 

The main thing is controlling the fatigue so you can make hard sessions hard... And not get injured. 

A walk may be good if you start to feel overly fatigued with your training or you start the get niggles that could turn to injury. 

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 Deleted bagger 17 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

And there was me thinking that training was cheating......🤔

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 Stone Muppet 17 May 2020
In reply to Dave B:

I'm not aiming for hard sessions at all though. I'm aiming to build mountaineering endurance for which I thought easy was supposed to be the thing. Apparently I've done enough z3/4 previously, and am supposedly deficient in z2. We may be working to decent recipes though as in my system there is no z5.

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 Stone Muppet 17 May 2020

*different recipes

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 Dave B 17 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Its so confusing when there are different numbers of zones, ain't it. 

Are you building your runs from that hour upto several hours? 

Unless you're z3 is above the rate at which you can clear lactate, then it'll probably be beneficial to go into your z3 in runs for those amounts of time. 

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 wbo2 17 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet: Personally I'd jsut accept that my heart rate was was it was, slow down a bit but keep running unless it's very steep.  In which case I'd change my route  

How long are these runs is a key questions?

Bear in mind that as you appear relatively new to this things like your min, max and threshold heartrates are all going to change quite a bit as you start training so it wouldn't be a bad idea to retest and adjust after say 6 weeks.  Also bear in mind that some of these tests are quite difficult to do correctly so be a little cynical of some numbers.

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In reply to Stone Muppet:

> Apparently I've done enough z3/4 previously, and am supposedly deficient in z2. We may be working to decent recipes though as in my system there is no z5.

But I go up to z11

Post edited at 21:58
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 Stone Muppet 17 May 2020
In reply to Dave B:

I did 2h30 the other day and plan more of that length when I've got time

Zones I'm using: https://www.uphillathlete.com/uphill-athlete-training-zones-heart-rate-calculator/

Post edited at 22:56
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 Roadrunner6 18 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

I think you are over thinking it. Just keep it easy, on the hills you will go high, even hiking. Just slow off but I wouldn't focus on the HRM that much.

I really don't think it matters if you are over and under too much, the main thing is not finishing too fatigued. I more look at my average HR after, I know if I'm keeping it steady I shouldn't be above 130 bpm on average. That doesn't mean I can't spike if I'm running up a hill.

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 Dave B 18 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Ah. I see. Selier had 3 zones, that system has 4, we one I use for ruining has 5 (splits your z4 into 2),, my bike computer uses 6 for power. Aaaaaah. 

@robert I like the idea of 11. Have a like. 

On terms of your running. Still below Lactate threshold, so yes, include it. I wouldn't drop all z3-4 (your scale) work as this will still help provide adaptions that will help with longer efforts. Especially when you are doing uphills for real. 

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 DancingOnRock 18 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

If you can’t talk you’re going too fast. Slow down and walk. The ‘danger’ is you’re wasting that 15minutes of exercise by running at a pace that’s too fast to be slow and too slow to be fast. Junk miles. 
 

If you’re just going out for an hour run and have a set route that needs to be covered in an hour then you’ll just have to accept bits of it won’t be ‘training’ anything. If you want to spend the whole hour training at low HR then you’ll have to walk. 
 

Depends greatly on what the rest of your training looks like. 
 

I’ve just done 7 weeks of easy training. That’s walking up hills and running flat and downhill. It puts a completely different perspective on the outing. Much more relaxed. 

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 Stone Muppet 18 May 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

According to those who follow the uphill athlete school of thought I may be aerobically deficient which means I can talk even when I'm going too fast. (Max heart rate is 179 but I can sustain an average of 147 running uphill and breathing through my nose only)

I don't mind "wasting" 15 minutes of a 1 hour run if it means I'm enjoying it rather than cold and bored! I'm just worried those 15 minutes would kick my metabolism into some sort of carb-burning frenzy for the whole run, which if it were true, would waste the whole thing?

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In reply to Stone Muppet:

I may be missing something here, and I admit I know nothing of Z levels and heart rate monitoring, but, if you're trying to get fit, how can it not be best not to try as hard as you can on a given run (unless you are saving some energy for the next run)? If you want to train at a lower intensity, surely you should be knackering yourself on a longer run rather than slowing down and taking it easy on parts of a shorter run.

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 Roadrunner6 18 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

The problem is you can calculate it different ways.

https://www.mdapp.co/heart-rate-zone-calculator-251/

this has 3 different methods with pretty different results.

i think Karvonen is more accurate for me.

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 wbo2 18 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran: His run is 2 1/2 hours so that's long enough that if you don't go steady you'll spend the next week recovering.

If you're only going out for 30,40 minutes 3 times a week you may as well give it some lash.

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 Stone Muppet 18 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I may be missing something here, and I admit I know nothing of Z levels and heart rate monitoring, but, if you're trying to get fit, how can it not be best not to try as hard as you can on a given run?

https://www.uphillathlete.com/aerobic-deficiency-syndrome/

Because apparently running slowly trains your body to use fat stores more than carbs, which is good for big mountain days.

Recovery is not my immediate concern.

Post edited at 19:57
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 Roadrunner6 18 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Yeah it is basically building a base. When I was running at my peak I was 80-100 miles week in week out for years and lots of it was just at 7-7:30 min mile pace, which was relatively slow for me. We'd throw in harder workouts close to events but it was all about that aerobic base. I'd go for 17-20 mile runs after work with a gel in my hand and no water.

Most main training schemes use a similar approach, MAF, Canova, Lydiard etc. This isn't a huge change from that. Lydiard was steady more than easy though. But I don't think many athletes are open to this style of slow improvements and want the get rich quick scheme of hard workouts.

https://trailrunnermag.com/training/what-it-means-to-base-build-and-how-to-do-it.html

I'm a big fan of Roche, smart guy. It's still basically keep 'easy' runs easy. But I think some take this too far, as always there's a balance. I've found as I've got older the 'easy' runs have to be easier and thats what I use a HRM for.

Andy Davies (2:14 marathoner, British vet 40 record holder) will run 8 min miles on his morning easy runs, That's 3 minutes per mile slower than marathon pace. So for me its 9:30 pace or something.

Post edited at 20:31
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In reply to Stone Muppet:

> Because apparently running slowly trains your body to use fat stores more than carbs, which is good for big mountain days.

So, if, say, my running is restricted to three or four 45 min runs per week and I want to get fit for an Alps trip, are you saying I am better doing those at an easy pace rather than pushing myself? Or is the point that I really need to be running for much longer so that I need to go at a slower pace in order to sustain it?

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 Roadrunner6 19 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

That’s a good point and I’ve not seen it addressed. Typically, with lydiard, the base is highish miles. 10+ hours a week. 
 

ive not read the book but I struggle to see where you get the stimulus for aerobic development without hours of work. It’s in this phase we make all those structural improvements like more capillaries and more mitochondria. 

Post edited at 00:26
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I ran 3 hours slowly yesterday

For a run of that length assuming I am trying to train endurance as discussed here, should I be eating anything during the run? (also I'm not sure how much to drink, suspect not enough at the moment!)

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In reply to Stone Muppet:

According to a lot of studies anything over 2:30 is not developing any more and only going to cause injury and fatigue. 
 

The 20mile run has come about because the elite athletes would go for a couple of hours run - 20miles just happened to be the distance they cover. 
 

You’re much better off running for time and if you’re a 4hr+ marathon runner, splitting your long run over two days.
 

Drink when you’re thirsty but in this weather you might need to drink beforehand and make sure you’re properly hydrated normally. 

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Fair enough, should I be eating anything during a 2h30 run then?

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 Dave B 13:26 Wed
In reply to Stone Muppet:

probably... The guidance I have seen says that runs over an 90 minutes probably should have some kind of fuelling, even if you are looking at trying to do move to 'fat as fuel'. 

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In reply to Dave B:

Yes. But you might not need to eat on the move. If you’ve have a decent meal the night before, and you run slow enough then you’ll be using a mixture of carbs and fat.
 

I’ll do a 2 1/2 run without breakfast but it takes a while to get to that point and be confident. If you’re racing a half marathon (1hr to 2hrs) then you’ll want to eat a proper breakfast. 

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 Roadrunner6 15:35 Wed
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Yes, I think eat, for a start you need to train your body to eating on the go, it takes some getting used to. Someone just ran 100 miles off nothing but water, impressive, but I'm not sure I see the point. I'll run up to 1:30-2:00 with nothing but any longer and I need something.

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In reply to Stone Muppet:

I would eat as it means you can practice for the longer hill run or ultra and know what doesn't upset you. I used to run for a couple of hours plus without anything, but this is pretty unhelpful attitude when you out for 8 hours and start to eat too late. Lots of people said it was important, but I didn't get it!

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 Dave B 17:47 Wed
In reply to DancingOnRock:

In the past I've done similar. Not fit enough to do 2.5hour runs at the moment. I did take water though. 

Hoewever, the evidence is clearly in the court of get used to feeding on these runs. It will help with longer runs, where you definitely need to and help recovery from these shorter runs. That isn't too say people don't do it without.

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