Ultra Sicky

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 Wainers44 30 May 2017
I am hoping some far more experienced runners on here might be able to help me....


The problem is that I seem to have developed a habit of chucking up on ultra distance events between miles 40 and 60. I have read up loads of stuff about what to eat, drink etc, but it's happened to me 4 times now and the pattern is very regular.....

Miles 0 - 30 feel good, strong, manage to eat and drink a bit, convince myself that at last my pre run nosh has worked and all will be good. Miles 30 - 40 feel less hungry, eat a bit but struggle to stomach anything. Start to worry.

Wheels come off at mile 40. Cannot force food down, anything that does go in comes straight back, even jelly beans etc (puked a chewed up glucose tablet back this time, boy do they taste foul second time).

Eat and drink nothing between miles 40 and 60, feel terrible, decide never to do this again.

Three times I have forced through this and beyond 70 miles I feel much much better. I can start to eat again, can run a reasonable pace, even after mile 80 and by this stage can't really understand just how I could have felt so bad!

Has anyone else suffered from this? I am booked on a 64 mile trail ultra this summer, which is the same event I crashed out of at mile 50 last year. Unless I can come up with a plan, hopefully with some help from the wise heads on UKC I think I should probably withdraw.

Thanks Wainers




Anyone else suffered



 solostoke 30 May 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

Sounds very familiar. I'm a strange one however in that I can't burp so I think that's half my problem. I've managed to all but conquer my demons by eating a lot lot lot less than I was doing and also by eating a couple of rennie tablets at each cp.
Hope that helps!
 wbo 30 May 2017
In reply to Wainers44: are you crapping at any point? Are you throwing up 'from the stomach' or is it a phlegm, caustic throat sensation?

OP Wainers44 30 May 2017
In reply to solostoke:

> Sounds very familiar. I'm a strange one however in that I can't burp so I think that's half my problem. I've managed to all but conquer my demons by eating a lot lot lot less than I was doing and also by eating a couple of rennie tablets at each cp. Hope that helps!

That might be worth a try, although it doesn't feel acidic. I just feel so bloated. I could eat less before hand but I am a skinny b*gger so would probably then keel over !
OP Wainers44 30 May 2017
In reply to wbo:

> are you crapping at any point? Are you throwing up 'from the stomach' or is it a phlegm, caustic throat sensation?

It's from my stomach. Just the thought of eating or drinking at that stage makes me urge and when I force it down it just comes back. Odd thing is that when the feeling finally passes I can eat or drink almost anything. Even a mixture of Complan (milk)....and Seven Up stayed put!
Ste Brom 31 May 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

Anything above a certain BPM involves the rerouting of the blood supply away from functions such as digestion, so maybe its an effort related thing. i.e.; sympathetic vs the parasympathetic nervous system (dunno if its relevant, still interesting to hypothesise.).

http://troyshellhamer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/parasympathetic-overtraining-a... (3rd, 4th and 5th paragraphs).

All that said, I've been using that tailwind stuff, really good so far.
 shuffle 31 May 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

How soon do you start eating during the event?

I find if I leave it too long it is much harder to eat than if I start eating little and often from the off. I would never eat on a training run of 2 hours or less, but on a race or training run where I'll be out for several hours I aim to start eating small amounts of food at regular intervals from about 30 minutes in.

Savoury is often much more palatable than sweet for me too.
OP Wainers44 31 May 2017
In reply to Ste Brom:

> Anything above a certain BPM involves the rerouting of the blood supply away from functions such as digestion, so maybe its an effort related thing. i.e.; sympathetic vs the parasympathetic nervous system (dunno if its relevant, still interesting to hypothesise.).http://troyshellhamer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/parasympathetic-overtraining-a... (3rd, 4th and 5th paragraphs).All that said, I've been using that tailwind stuff, really good so far.

You might have a point there and it could maybe be linked to the heat? My bpm at a nice slow pace is normally only 130. I noticed in the heat it was up over 150. If that is the problem it doesn't sound like there is much I can do other than run winter races only!!
OP Wainers44 31 May 2017
In reply to shuffle:

> How soon do you start eating during the event? I find if I leave it too long it is much harder to eat than if I start eating little and often from the off. I would never eat on a training run of 2 hours or less, but on a race or training run where I'll be out for several hours I aim to start eating small amounts of food at regular intervals from about 30 minutes in.Savoury is often much more palatable than sweet for me too.

Thanks, very sensible advice. I thought I ate from the start, but maybe too much sugary stuff. Certainly Lucozade was a mistake to drink at that stage and was so sweet I didn't want to drink much after that.

What sort of savoury stuff do you go for?
 climbingpixie 31 May 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

I often crave savoury food when I'm out running and have experimented recently with hummous and olive wraps. They're carby but not stodgy, nice and moist, the olive saltiness is lovely and they're fairly indestructible in a rucksack. Plus I actually want to eat them, which is half the battle for me on long runs when the thought of eating more sugary stuff is really off-putting
 shuffle 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

I find that cheese (babybel is pretty tasteless, but as it is wrapped in wax it is really easy to stuff in a pocket or bumbag), sandwiches made with a wrap, cold pizza, pretzels and peanut butter all go down well, as do sausage rolls or pork pie if the race is very long and slow. I've heard lots of people say boiled potatoes with butter and salt are good too, but not tried them myself. I like to nibble on dried fruit and nuts or flapjack too

It is a bit of trial and error really, but I think the main thing for me is to choose things that I actually enjoy so that I actively want to eat them rather than having to force them down. I really dislike gels and whilst I usually have a couple with me, I would only ever choose them if I was in desperate need of an instant sugar boost.
 steveriley 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:
> I am hoping some far more experienced runners on here might be able to help me....

I've only done a handful of ultras and you sound more experienced than most of us. I still get food and drink wrong and messed up last week on the Old County Tops. The weather was grim and I was thinking more about pushing on and just getting through it and less about looking after myself ...which of course had the opposite effect. I think eating early is good (and counter intuitive if you're used to running 1-2h without).

Always swore by a mix of techno and real food but now finding some gels awful to get down. A mate did the entire Bob Graham on Kendal Mint Cake, portion controlled. My chum on the OCT ate mostly bits of Mars bar and faired much better than me. I might just try more of a simple sugar approach next time. Certainly jelly babies always go down well in fell races.


Moley 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

Sounds horrible and I have no instant solution - except keep experimenting.
I would certainly try to start eating (small and regular) right from the start of an event and not wait, I believe some of the older distance runners did this, shovelling food in from the beginning of a round. Then again, others seem to get by with little food.
Only other thing I picked up from LDWA 100 was that mint sweets (mint imperials being a favourite) help settle the stomach through queasy times.
OP Wainers44 01 Jun 2017
In reply to steveriley:

> I've only done a handful of ultras and you sound more experienced than most of us. I still get food and drink wrong and messed up last week on the Old County Tops. The weather was grim and I was thinking more about pushing on and just getting through it and less about looking after myself ...which of course had the opposite effect. I think eating early is good (and counter intuitive if you're used to running 1-2h without).Always swore by a mix of techno and real food but now finding some gels awful to get down. A mate did the entire Bob Graham on Kendal Mint Cake, portion controlled. My chum on the OCT ate mostly bits of Mars bar and faired much better than me. I might just try more of a simple sugar approach next time. Certainly jelly babies always go down well in fell races.

I do enjoy the odd jelly baby, but I think my issue is too much sugar and not enough proper food. The high energy stuff is OK on a short run, but when over about 25 miles I just don't like the taste.
OP Wainers44 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Moley:

> Sounds horrible and I have no instant solution - except keep experimenting.I would certainly try to start eating (small and regular) right from the start of an event and not wait, I believe some of the older distance runners did this, shovelling food in from the beginning of a round. Then again, others seem to get by with little food.Only other thing I picked up from LDWA 100 was that mint sweets (mint imperials being a favourite) help settle the stomach through queasy times.

Good idea with the mints I will give that a try. The ultra I am booked on starts at midnight, and leaving alone the fact that my body isn't used to eating through the wee hours, I will need to try to eat just before the off.

I find that many of the early feeding stations seem to concentrate on sweet stuff so maybe I should carry my own savouries.
OP Wainers44 01 Jun 2017
In reply to shuffle:

I think I read about the potatoe idea too. That might be worth a go. Thanks!
 shuffle 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

Good luck with the race!
Ste Brom 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

A couple of bags of mashed potato with mustard and mayo.

btw, soz
https://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m26ywoV2Rj1rrcn52o1_500.gif

I thought of Dan Quayle.
 r0b 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

Are you drinking enough? Solid food needs to be diluted with water so that it is easily absorbed by the stomach. Check out this article for more details: https://www.theendurancestore.com/blogs/the-endurance-store/54878851-find-i...

Failing that, a more radical solution would be to switch to a ketogenic (low carb) diet which should mean you can run ultras with much less food intake.
OP Wainers44 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Ste Brom:

> A couple of bags of mashed potato with mustard and mayo.btw, I thought of Dan Quayle.....

Ha!

Look after the 100 I went straight to the Lakes to supervise a Scout trip. They have now gone, I now feel more tired than I did after the hundred and clearly my spelling has suffered.

I intend to try a rehab diet of Sneck Lifter and Steak this evening!!!
OP Wainers44 02 Jun 2017
In reply to r0b:

> Are you drinking enough? Solid food needs to be diluted with water so that it is easily absorbed by the stomach. Check out this article for more details: https://www.theendurancestore.com/blogs/the-endurance-store/54878851-find-i... that, a more radical solution would be to switch to a ketogenic (low carb) diet which should mean you can run ultras with much less food intake.

Gulp, low carb. My misses says I too skinny already. I manage to lose weight if I look at only one cake instead of two....

If she thinks I am dieting I reckon that will be it....I will be out on my ear...!
OP Wainers44 02 Jun 2017
In reply to shuffle:

> Good luck with the race!

Cheers, I do want to do it. As an event its my one and only DNF and it doesn't seem right to leave it undone!
 EuanM 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

Is it the Ultimate Trails 110km by any chance?
 More-On 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

> I think I read about the potatoe idea too. That might be worth a go. Thanks!

I've mentioned potatoes on here before, although roast not boiled - I prefer the texture. Add some biltong or similar, and pretzels, alongside energy bars/gels and you're good to go. Oh and a couple of double espresso gels to get you through the really low points...

I find if I start on the savoury stuff almost from the off and stay hydrated all is well for the duration, no matter how long.

Anyway, all the best for the event and enjoy the snecky!

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