UKH

Hey folks,

I've signed up for the trigger in Jan and after a reccy run around Crowden/ Laddow / Black Hill yesterday it's got me thinking about winter kit. In particular leggings and jackets. I've got a £40 decathlon waterproof, some £10 leggings and a decent thermal base layer. 

I'm prepared to be wet, cold and at times miserable but will I regret not shelling out for thermal leggings and a better jacket? I ask as the step up in price is quite large.

I'm already sold on neoprene socks and good mits.

Any tips appreciated!

Preparing to be wet, cold and miserable is one thing. Preparing to not be hypothermic is another.

Leggings I've always worn fairly cheap but thicker wintery ones.

Waterproof - I've always used a proper wintery running one, and would favour a named fabric. I wouldn't trust a light one. A good winter waterproof can be a good investment (I got mine half price as end-of-line, had it for 7 years and only now thinking it could do with an upgrade). It's kept me warm on Triggers, Elite OMMs, HPM, and numerous poor-weather races and runs.

Socks I have used neoprene but only really when there's snow on the ground. Normally quite happy with woolen socks. But then again I've only out there for a max of 4hs on Trigger. Others need to prepare for closer to 8.

I wouldn't say I definitively know what I'm talking about, but I have run Trigger 3 times and never come worse than 1st.

Thanks Nic - some invaluable insight

Hi 

I recced Trigger last week and although it was dry the ground was absolutely soaking pretty much all the way from black hill until the end and my legs and shorts were soaking wet when I got to  the ramblers. I would have been glad of a proper waterproof jacket had the heavens opened rather than a lightweight waterproof. I've never worn leggins before but probably plan to on the Trigger. 

What are leggins like when they get soaking wet? 

Thanks

Dan

Manageable and keeps the wind off which is the main benefit.

Given I ended up thigh deep in a few bogs this weekend it will probably be at least chest height by January!

What waterproof have you had which has lasted 7 years? I’ve got sick of replacing them every couple of years.

Seventeen new heads and fourteen new handles. 

Leggings with waterproof shorts over the top. I always found I lost loads of heat from my arse being wet. Waterproof shorts were a revelation. Also, gloves that stay warm when wet (they will get wet) and a pair of lightweight mitts for if the shit hits the fan.

Agree with the bits about a good quality waterproof. You don't want to be halfway across bleaklow with a cheap waterproof when the proper winter weather comes in.

You'll love it. By far and away the most epic fell race I've ever done.

Trigger is a great race & a real experience - hope you enjoy it as much as I did! Before you read my tuppence worth, I’d encourage you to consider doing a recce of some sections (Bleaklow & Kinder section from Snake Pass, in particular) & test the kit you’ve got on those. 
 

Both times I’ve done it, I’ve worn whatever leggings I’ve had at the time (fairly thin ones). That said, I’ve since got a thicker pair & would certainly consider them if it was due to be particularly cold. It snowed the first year I did it, though I can only remember my face feeling particularly cold - even then, I had the advantage of having grown a thick beard for a good 6 weeks prior. 
 

Waterproof wise, again I just wore what I had at the time - OMM Kamleika (1st generation) which isn’t super lightweight but hardly that heavy. From memory, I had a base layer long sleeve, club vest & either a Helly jumper or a fleece under that. 
 

I find my hands get really cold quite easily, so have opted for big mitts & used hand warmers inside them. I think I might’ve used liners too, though I can’t remember for certain. 
 

Hat wise, whatever keeps you warm but isn’t going to make you feel uncomfortably hot (again, each to their own on this). Being bald, my hat didn’t come off once! I used a buff for neck cover, too. 
 

Personally, I wouldn’t use neoprene socks. Used to use them on my bike in winter & found them effective, but for running & work (I’m a gardener) I end up with skin close to me macerating, either through ingress or water or build up of sweat with nowhere to go. I’ve tended to opt for slightly thicker woolen socks (classic Pete Bland ones) & found them to stay warm even when wet. Each to their own, though; I know some are very keen on neoprene. 
 

Along with emergency food, whistle map & compass, I’m pretty certain you’ll still be asked to carry an emergency blanket, torch & batteries, & a spare base layer. I’ve fitted all that in a bumbag but race vest or rucksack gives a bit more flexibility. You’ll likely want to take something to eat on route & drinking water, too. 
 

Shoe wise I’d choose whatever you feel grips well & is going to be comfortable for the duration (everyone has their own take on shoes). Bleaklow is particularly poor underfoot. 

I've signed up too and been thinking about kit after getting quite cold at the OMM. Thinking of getting some winter grade tights for sure and perhaps not bothering with the OMM summer waterproof and just going with the heavyweight Goretex pro jacket I've got. I'd rather be a few hundred grams heavier and not bloody freezing!

Anyone keen to recce some legs too as it could work out handy to have 2 cars logistics wise?

Karl

I have a Haglofs Gram Comp. I pretty much save it for sub-optimal weather and try not to keep it scrunched up in my bumbag in between.

No OMMs since 2019 and not much racing at all since then have probably extended its lifetime. Has just started delamming, but would still do a job this winter.

Socks - wore neoprene socks on a snowy HPM one year. Feet were a bit crinkly after 9h out but were warm. Running Bear Lambswool socks are my weapon of choice for pretty much any race.

Shoes - one Icy year I wore VJ Bold dob spikes, they are not at all forgiving and the last run along the Pennine way to Edale was quite sore, however they were very useful on the Black Hill slabs. One reason for the sore feet was probably because the western edge path (this was when you went to Ashop Head then Kinder Low trig) was basically ankle-deep slush the entire way, the previous night's snow having thawed in icy rain.

How fast are you? I've done Trigger three times and am around the 6 hours mark. I think it's quite different being out for 6 hours, compared to e.g. 4.

Last year I wore waterproof trousers for the first and only time ever running (put them on just before Snake Pass and wore them all the way to the far side of Kinder!). I had more layers than on my previous two Triggers and I was still cold. It's really hard not to end up soaked through. It's always windy over Bleaklow/Higher Shelf and this finishes people off.

My tips:

- I recommend Neoprene socks. I know others use more expensive waterproof socks and rate them.

- Wool base layers are a lot warmer when you are wet. I have been soaked the 3 times I have done it.

- Unless you are really fast, you may as well carry that extra 300gms primaloft insulating layer. Lots of people bail out at Snake Pass as they're verging on hyperthermia.

- Eat. You need it to stay warm.

- Get support at Snake Pass if you can! A friend saved my bacon one year with hot coffee.

Enjoy. It's a great experience, especially if you get the nav right and pass better runners by following good lines.

Perhaps unsurprisingly I'd echo everything Nic has said, as he's someone speaking from many years of experience.

From a personal perspective, I'd tend to tailor whatever I wear - and pack - based around the conditions. Whilst you could get away with something lighter (and less waterproof) in a dry year, in a wet or snowy year you'd likely be putting yourself in some degree of danger. As such, it's probably worth preparing or the worst and viewing whatever you buy as an investment if you don't end up using it.

Last year was pretty tough conditions, with a bit of everything: rain, wind, snow and mud. I wore the Montane Spine Jacket which I've really rated for wet, wintry weather. Spec-wise it's quite similar to the Haglofs Gram Comp that Nic uses, insofar as it features a Gore Active membrane, which is very much 'the real deal' in terms of its waterproofing and breathability. I've used the OMM Kamleika before, and recently reviewed the Rab Kinetic Ultra, but I think you want something more substantial than that for something wintry like this, as it's going to be fairly full on!!

Leggings-wise I think (if I recall correctly) I might have used the Montane Thermal Trail Tights. Whilst I did see people wearing shorts, I have absolutely no idea how people's muscles continue to function - or what their contingency plan is if they (for some reason) have to stop. These felt like a bit of a luxury, but I was pretty grateful for that whilst running across Bleaklow and Kinder, as it really was a biting wind.

Look forward to seeing you there anyhow. I'm already signed up, as I felt like I had unfinished business after last year.

Hands: people favour different things for hands but I have always just used little £1 wooly gloves as undergloves, and paired them with mitts (Inov8 ones work OK, but I have some more substantial Montane Goretex ones that I now use more often). A spare pair (or 2!) of undergloves in the bag incase I take a dunking.

As for leggings, I've never gone for anything specific. Normally use my 'heavier' decathlon tights, but also have generic OMM and New Balance ones that I would be happy to use. I carry my 'heavy' Decathlon walking overtrousers (but have never had to use them).

Even if the weather was clement I would only ever carry my 'winter' waterproof and leave my lighter ones at home. Underneath I normally just have a decent thermal (either my ancient OMM one or a fairly motheaten merino I got for Christmas ages back) and a T-shirt/vest over it. Buff around the neck. However, I run hot and really relish crap weather (I have stories of sneaky Bleaklow shithousery if you get bored between now and Jan!)

I’m keen for some recces for sure, I’m south Manchester. The bits I’m keen to recce are between crowden and kinder gates really but could do with also going up to black hill from crowden and back again as well. Map wise what do people usually use. I usually blag my way around these things but will probably want to keep a keener eye on the map for this 

The BMC dark peak map just about covers it I believe. I’d be keen to get out to check it out. Will drop you a PM to arrange something. 

I didn’t bother with a recce anywhere prior to Crowden as the race is still reasonably close at that point. That said, if I were at the front or the back I’d likely think different & a recce can inspire confidence that you know what’s ahead. After Crowden, the field tends to spread out with some early drop outs & folk beginning to take different lines after the reservoir. 
 

Bleaklow is a tricky one. I don’t think there’s a definitive decent line across & the proliferation of groughs make it very difficult to recognise where you are. Having a map & compass (with bearings) to hand for the CP is useful. Can’t comment on Kinder Gates, as when I last did it the race was restricted to the Pennine Way across Kinder to the Low trig. 
 

Map wise, I used photocopied sections of the OS map & marked up CPs. Covered them in sticky back plastic so they’d withstand the weather. I’d consider getting the Harvey Dark Peak map if I were to do it again, as they are lightweight, easy to read & waterproof. 

I remember seeing a guy in the depths of despair on bleaklow trying to figure out his waterproof pants in thick cold fog, so i would probably advise you get togged up before its too late for your freezing hands/brain. Many people go the whole way fully waterproofed iirc.

Thanks for all the gear advice all. Plenty to think about and at least 1 kidney to be sold.

I'm also south Manchester (Levenshulme) and up for some more recce's. 

I've run over Bleaklow plenty times but generally always followed the Pennine way. I'm guessing most folk scramble up Lawrence edge to Bleaklow head then attempt to follow bearing to higher shelf trig. 

I'm guessing most folk scramble up Lawrence edge to Bleaklow head then attempt to follow bearing to higher shelf trig. 

Yes, this is the route most took when I did Trigger in 2014 & 2015. I pretty much took the tactic of running on a bearing from the top of Lawrence Edge to Bleaklow Head, then again to Higher Shelf. I found the former section the hardest going & straight lining it is pretty much impossible, so be prepared to adjust as needs be. I don’t know if the route has changed, though, & some restrictions may have been imposed since I did it. Worth checking Trigger website for details on this before doing any recce or racing  

Ha I’m Levenshulme as well 

I’ve not used neoprene socks myself, though I know folk who’ve used neoprene sailing socks. Anyone considering using them, I’d definitely try them out first to see how they fit with your shoes, affect your skin etc (I’d say the same for most kit, to be honest). 
 

I’ve never used a primaloft layer (or similar), mostly because I don’t own one. I’d consider sticking it in the bag, though, if I did own one.
 

For context, I finished in the 4.40 region (I can’t remember exact times). Given slight changes in route since I last raced Trigger in 2016 I’d guess that’d be around the 5 hour mark now, so mid-pack. The weather, from memory, was squally snow showers in 2014 & relatively benign in 2015. I can’t recall feeling cold at any point once we’d been moving for 15 minutes, though I was inclined to wrap up considerably from the start. I was always minded to keep moving as much as possible to keep warm; having food/gels/water easily to hand helps here, as does knowing where extra layers, map & compass are to prevent any stopping to faff. 
 

The terrain for actual running is relatively good from Marden through Crowden, with the difficulties underfoot being mostly on Bleaklow. The section over Kinder was reasonable going when I did it, though the newer CPs & the re-addition of Kinder Gates will likely have made it more difficult. 
 

Nav wise it’s not too tricky, though some recces of Bleaklow & parts of Kinder will certainly help. Just remember it’s a north to south race & not to go north, as an unfortunate friend of mine once did after becoming disorientated post-lacing shoes!

I'd recommend the OMM Kamleika Smock as a good waterproof that is light enough for racing and is relatively durable.

I've always suffered with cold hands and feet, especially on the Trigger. 

For me neoprene socks do work, but you'll need to wear them with larger shoes, and ideally a liner sock. Thick woollen socks seem no better than regular socks once wet. However everyone is different and I do have Raynaud's (worse in hands). The ground will be staurated in January and there will be puddles as well as the bogs.

I pretty much always get wet hands from the weather or falling over in the bogs off Black Hill, which sets me up for the race! I tend to wear stretchy fleece gloves, and have a pair of paclite waterproof mitts to wear over them in case of rain. Consider packing a spare pair in a dry bag if you suffer from cold hands. Check you can put them on with cold, wet hands, some of my gloves I struggle with, I have a pair of thick mitts I took with me but struggled to get them on as they have internal stitching to separate the fingers.

The new route (due to path closures) mean that going up Clough Edge is the best way on to Bleaklow, then head SSW from John Track Well where the Pennine Way goes East along Wildboar Grain. There is a bit of a trod here IIRC but you can more or less straight line it on a bearing. I did this in 2019 and it was ok.

You might be surprised at what you can find cheaply. I've got a pair of fleecy winter weight leggings, some of those cheapo Go Outdoors North Ridge things, and they're surprisingly good for keeping my legs warm even when they're wet. I've not done Trigger but I've done a few late Autumn/winter Kong Mini Mountain Marathons (including one on the Kinder Plateau in miserable 'mushy snow over thick bog' conditions) and they're my go to when I want to stay warm while wet.

eBay. Always lots of used kit in great condition.

Ran the whole route on Saturday. Was initially hoping for some crap weather as a reality check but settled for 15C and sunny. Took 6h30m at a leisurely pace and covered 25 miles. Definitely a few lines I can optimise next time. 

I ran on a bearing from snake pass to the trig just before kinder downfall but will probably stick to the Pennine way next time! I got there successfully but was fine but very very slow going.

The two times I raced it, almost everyone took the Pennine Way (cutting the corner may have been out of bounds, but I can’t remember to be honest). However with the CP having changed slightly & it being significantly shorter up Withins Clough, I would likely take that route. The going is poor up Withins Clough (I did a recce of it back in 2014), though the Pennine Way slabs are hard underfoot & unforgiving on the shins (mine still bear the scars from a fall!)

Doing a few recces is definitely part of the fun of doing long fell races with plenty of route choice. When fit, I’ve found it’s paid off well. In terms of finish, I’ve found the descent off Grindslow Knoll the most enjoyable. The road was still in bounds last time I did it - quickest option but a grinding two miles. 

Do you not run DOWN Withins Clough (or near to it) into Ashop Clough then hack up near Upper Red Brook? Never done the Trigger (fist time in Jan!) but the Pennine Way slabs were always brutal on the legs on the HPM.....

I've got Grindslow Knoll on my plan, love that run down but need to get the wall crossing right.

The route is now confirmed. Same as 2022. From Sandy Heys it’s via Kinder Gates so you’ll finish on the path that skirts round Grindslow Knoll. I found the trickiest nav from Kinder Gates across to the rim path.

Dunno if anyone followed the Pennine Way from Snake Pass to Sandy Heys? Quickest line seemed to be on the east flank of Within Clough, then there’s a fairly good line up onto Kinder Northern Edges. Steep though.

I so love that line. Not one I will ever write myself though.

In reply to galpinos:

Do you not run DOWN Withins Clough (or near to it) into Ashop Clough then hack up near Upper Red Brook? Never done the Trigger (fist time in Jan!) but the Pennine Way slabs were always brutal on the legs on the HPM....
 

It’s been 8 years since I did that recce saw I’m not sure - sorry! I think that was the essence of it, though on pathless & poor terrain I can’t say there appeared to be a racing line. When it came to race day in 2015, I opted to follow the pack & stick on the Pennine Way (slabs duly tripping & gouging my shins...) I think Withins Clough might’ve been out of bounds when I raced Trigger again in 2016, though I can’t remember for certain. 
 

On the Grindslow Knoll decent - you can take the path or slide down on your arse (both are fair game on the short Edale Show race). Depends how you’re feeling at the time, I suppose. I think the whole in the wall is of more benefit if you were to climb Ringing Roger, as per the traditional down & up option from the old edale Skyline race route. Given that there is no CP on Ringing Roger for Trigger I’m not sure it’d make much difference aiming for the whole in the wall, as you just need to stick on/gain the obvious tourist path to get to the Nag’s Head & road run down pto the campsite where the race finishes. 

Done the Trigger about 4 (I think) times now. Most things already covered by Nic/Rob above, but in particular:

-  Definitely have a decent waterproof. I've always used a Goretex Active (similar to the Montane Spine mentioned) already

- I've used both Neoprene and wool socks. Tend to favour the latter unless it is really really cold (in which case Neoprene over the wool!)

- Biggest mistake I've made has been re gloves/mitts. If it's wet (which it probably will be), these will get wet and your hands will get cold, so having a spare set really helps. I now like to go for standard gloves or mitts with a waterproof over mitt.

- In terms of lines, it's OK to Crowden. Bleaklow is easier now the route has changed - trust your bearings.  From Snake Pass I definitely think the Withins Clough line is quicker than going round on the slabs

- Most importantly - check in advance if there is access to the showers at the campsite at the end and take 40p. There wasn't last year due to you-know-what, but previous years they were open and were so so welcome at the end!! 

Well that was bloody amazing. Did you have a good time? 

In short....it all went wrong.

I started strong up to black Hill but I suffer from very occasional exercise induced allergies (carry epi pens) and had a nasty reaction coming off black hill. Reluctantly I had to DNF at Crowden with a swollen face and my asthma kicking off!

Honestly can't believe it but luckily no harm done and back running now. WMR were superb. Got a good taster at least and will be back next year!

How did you get on?

Visibility was good and ran it with a couple of pals so actually dare I say it enjoyed the experience. Weather was a bit grim on Bleaklow but still not sure I got the full trigger tick but will be back again for sure. Sorry to hear you had a bit of a nightmare. 

If you want to do  a similar run I recommend Saddleworth ten res's. It covers some of the same ground as Trigger and I really enjoyed it last year.