Speed training for beginners

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 Jackspratt 04 Jul 2020

I've started seriously training for running for the first time with the goal of a 50km in February.

I've got some decent endurance I completed 21km for the first time last weekend and was under 2hours.

My question is around pace training, my 10km pace is only 5.20/km and my half marathon pace was 5.35/km. Basically I want to get faster but people have suggested 1km sprints with a couple of minutes rest. I can't do more than a couple of these before being exhausted. How do I build up to this in the most effective way?

Any other tips for 50km training would be much appreciated too. Thanks for reading.

 bouldery bits 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

I would highly recommend obtaining a copy of 'training for the uphill athlete'. 

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 wbo2 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:  I wouldn't... I'd go for something more directly relevant.  Some ideas would be 

1. Enter some shorter races... parkrun 5k's being perfect.. you need to learn to push, if your endurance is indeed good then gains should come relatively quickly.

2. Go online and find some programmes directly addressing 10km training... if you're struggling to do your 6* 5 mins or whatever then change it to alternate weeks of 6 *3 mins with 1 min rest... and 6 *5 mins with 2 min rest and stick at it... your target pace for these might be 5 min per km and this won't initially be easy.

I'm sure there are lots of resources for this ... online marathon training programmes.. intermediate level.

1
 Mr Fuller 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

One minute of hard running followed by a minute or so or recovery is a good speed drill. If you're finding that you're starting the next interval still out of breath then rest for longer or run slower (is shuffle/walk) on the recovery section. 

 PPP 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

Given you can run a half marathon, you seem to have a head start compared to the most

As for paces, that sounds about right actually - putting numbers into one of the calculators (such as https://runsmartproject.com/calculator/ ) gives equivalent paces. Your 10K and HM times are nearly spot-on. It feels like most newer runners have better times at shorter distances, so you either didn't push hard enough or you are naturally more of an endurance runner rather than speedster. Needless to say, your training runs should not be about reaching PRs every time you go out. 

As for speed, it will improve with just more easy running. Some faster intervals are good, but should be done sparingly and with caution. Me thinking I lack speed and hammering two speed workouts a week made me injured and had to stay off running for months, which set me back even further. 

I would advise looking up a 50K training plan, finding the one that suits your preference in terms of how many days you want to run and how much time have you got. February is still a long way. Most training plans won't be 30+ weeks long, so you might just repeat the first N weeks and sandwich a week or two of recovery week. Alternatively, base building plans are also available (Sage Canaday has one for free).

Picking up a book on ultra running might be a good idea as well. Krissy Moehl has written one for first time ultra runners, but books by Hal Koerner, Bryon Powell and Jason Koop are also great. 

 summo 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

I'd vary the efforts weekly. It stops you getting into a routine and comparing timings.

10x200m

8x 400m 

3x 1km

5 x 500m uphill

Etc.. or even just 3 sides of a football field, walk the 4th side and go again. 

 SouthernSteve 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

1km sprints are very long. Try 400m at fast pace followed by a couple of minutes rest quietly jogging x 5 after warming up for 15-20 minutes and then jog for the rest of the hour to complete the work out

Also sharp hill repeats will build strength as will doing regular strength and conditioning exercises 

You are not training for 10k though so try to get time on legs and plenty of the terrain you will race on. 

You are a similar speed to me, and I have never been faster for shorter distances, but a bit better over longer runs. To help I try to have Tuesdays going faster, although since lockdown work has rather got in the way of any massive increases in fitness and it has all got a bit random.

A nice mountain ultra is a great thing, whatever the speed. The GTS was cancelled today - only one entry left for this year left now and little hope of that remaining!

 Dave B 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

So you run at those paces.. In training or in a 'race' scenario? Is that an easy comfortable pace, or a semi comfortable pace, or uncomfortable pace? Where would that be on a scale of perceived exertion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_of_perceived_exertion

Its almost certainly the case if you are new to running that you will get quicker whatever you do... However, you may get better benefits if you look at modifying paces. 

I tend to do my faster work by time rather than distance, as its more easily to transfer from person to person. Effectively you are worrying at particular rates to prioritise different energy systems. 

You may find benefit from doing v some VO2 max work, e.g start with 4x60 seconds hard with 60 seconds break between and slowly building to 8-10 of these, in few middle of a warm up and warm down. See how this changes your perception of running speed. Do try to keep most Running easy.

As you proceed you can also try longer efforts, but at a lower pace to your vo2 pace. E. G. 1 x 5 minutes, building to 4x 5 as time goes on.

Your biggest gain will come from more training , without getting injured, so keep the amount of fast running low enough, keep consistent, not one 50 k week followed by a 12k week, though you should expect some variation... Don't always push up distances, they can come down slightly as well. 

 ianstevens 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

Some terrible advice on this thread.

1. Parkrun is not a speed session, it's too long. It will make you faster, especially if you've not done much running, but won't work your top end.

2. Your speed will not improve with easy running - in fact the opposite.

Do some interval sessions over short distances - 400 m or less, once a week. Be prepared to try hard and mess them up the first few times you try them - like anything you need to learn how to do them! 10 x 400m used to be my "favourite", split into two blocks of five. Run 400 m fast, rest for 1.5 times your effort (I tended to do 75 secs/2 min rest). By rest I mean walk about. Then have a 5 min rest in the middle (after the fifth rep) - this equates to walking a whole 400 m. Then repeat. You are looking to get the same time for each effort, +/- a little (5% as a rule of thumb). Best done on a track if you can get one, or failing that a stretch of road with no turns or junctions etc.

You do however need to work on some longer efforts once a week - the tempo run. So go out, warm up, and put in a shift around your aerobic threshold - there are a lot of variations on this, but the actual meat of the session will be 8-12k typically (not counting the rests!).

Use the weekend to get some time on your feet - this is when you develop the endurance element of getting round a 50k. So go slow and go long here. Not at present of course, but my favourite always would be to do a race on the Saturday (ideally a fell race) then a big, easy day on the Sunday - often being out for 5+ hours (remember, you're training towards 50k). This might be a bit less initially - you say you can do a half, so start with that distance and add a few km every week for three weeks, then drop back a little, then ramp up some more. For example - 21km, then 23, then 25, then 23, 27,29,31,29,31,33 etc.

The best way to arrange this is a Tuesday/Thursday/Sat/Sun arrangement. Don't run junk miles, always go out worth an aim - could be more distance (i.e. your weekend runs) or fast intervals (i.e. your speed and tempo sessions in the week). Remember to fuel properly - 30-60g carbs about 30-60 mins before, carbs during if over 90 mins, and 30 G protein after. Can be real food of course, doesn't need to be sports nutrition stuff.

Take a rest every now and then. Go by feel, but if you haven't had an easy week in 10-12 weeks then consider it.

Source: I've raced (emphasis on raced, not just finished)  a bunch of 50 k mountain races, this worked for me and isn't hugely different to what many others have done that I've discussed with.  

Post edited at 19:06
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 Phil1919 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

The most effective speed training I have done is with a group of like minded individuals. I was quite amazed at what I could do chasing or being chased by others above what I could have done on my own.

 GDes 04 Jul 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

That's a great post Ian, very useful. Interested in how little you did in the week. I'm always a sucker for always thinking I need to do more, but I'm currently 2 months without running after picking up a calf strain, so shows what I know. Do you do any easy miles at all in the week? Or just those 2 sessions? No hill sessions?

It's a pretty appealing structure in terms of time. 

Post edited at 20:16
 Dave B 04 Jul 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I think the point about easy running is that often people think that if speed work makes you faster, then more speed work makes you even faster. This isn't true.  Its likely to make you injured.

There is a limit to how much hard work you can do on a week. So, I'd say that is fine to do easy runs, if it's part of a plan that includes some faster runs.. And it will make you faster overall. Injury avoidance is key. You may be lucky and not get injured easily. But many people do get injured, so advocating each run needs to either be longer than previous or hard is not going to suit all people. 

There is quite a lot of evidence that easy runs improve efficiency of muscles without to many detrimental effects, allowing to to build more and work harder when you do work hard. Effeciency of the muscles is going to be key over a 50k distance. 

What are junk miles? Look at all those people working on 80/20 programmes. They would say that junk miles are always running in z3. Originally, that zone 3 was 'not part of the plan', though it was soon realised that z3 had to be part of the plan as that's the pace that people were racing at in the longer, but not too long races, and they had to get used to working in that zone. This is where your tempo run fits, on the boundary of z3 and z4. A50k race is going to be raced in z2/3.

Hal Higdon disagrees with the concept of doing speedwork for a first 50k race at all! https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/more-training/ultramarathon-50k.... He says to save it for other times of the year.

It's rare to find a training plan that has cut back weeks only every 3 months. Most tend to figure out at 3-6 week blocks for build before a small reduction in loading, with most around 3. I would say that for most athletes, cut backs by 'feel' are not likely to be optimal. But the time the athlete thinks they need a cut back, theyve gone too far and end up needing to take a longer break. It's so easy if you are self coached to get this wrong: Doing too much rather than a little bit too little.  This is where a good training plan helps. If you plan it.. While you are being sensible, your are less tempted to deviate from it when you are in the throes of training and your mind isn't thinking clearly. Tools like Training Peaks and Elevate for Strava can help give insight in the middle of a training plan, but it's always advise a plan to start with. 

 wbo2 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Ian - actually I'm pretty comfortable with my advice, and it's pretty well based on what I did, and was advised to do by the national distance/endurance coach at the time, and a couple of other well known coaches.

1, Using 5k Parkrun as a speed session - it was pretty common practice to be sent out to do 3k and 5km races  as training for other races, and longer races, and I  think it's a good thing to do.  Most people, especially beginnners are not sure, aware of how deep they can be digging, and how it feels to do this.  I raced x.c, and road , normally to half marathon, and was frequently sent out to do 3k's and 5ks instead of a longer draggy rep session.

It's interesting then that you refer then to tempo runs as we found these, to be blunt, a bit of a waste of time as most people didn't do them fast enough to benefit, and also getting the pacing correct was a big problem for most people.

2. Short reps... like 400's are nice and I must have done 1000's in my time, but it's very important not to sprint them as that's not the same feeling you'll be doing in a race... even < 3 mins a km I am not sprinting, 'float' might be a better phrase.  I'm a but dubious of the merits of people doing a stink load of reps in a style they'll never see in real life.

Easy miles. I did a lot... and I think they're useful to build that aerobic base.  One approach I particularly likes was that of Mark Wetmore at CU in the US who, ffrom what I saw, had his athletes do a moderate heap (70-100 miles per week) of running, most steady, to generate monster aerobic ability with 2 or 3 sessions worked in, and most of them in that 5k sort of pace... to that end his group was basically a machine for taking average runners and turning them into aerobic monsters.

All the above have workedf for me, people I knew and aren't too far from what has worked for a heap of other people I respect 

Happy to discuss this.  Interval training should be effective, rewarding and easy to understand..

Post edited at 21:01
 GDes 04 Jul 2020
In reply to wbo2:

I'm slightly confused as to the difference between racing a 5k and doing a tempo run. I always assumed a tempo run was about 5k as fast as you can? Or have I been doing it wrong? And if so why is it wrong? 

Cheers for any answers! 

 The New NickB 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

What is your weekly mileage?

OP Jackspratt 04 Jul 2020
In reply to The New NickB:

My weekly mileage at the moment, as I'm still 6 months out from race day, is about 45-50k split into 3 sessions.

Monday interval training (I did my first speed session last week, it didn't go well hence the post)

Wednesday 16k

Saturday 21k

I am going to build this up to 5 days a week including back to back at the weekend and also increasing distances.

There's been loads of great stuff said so far so thank you very much, it is becoming abundantly clear to me that the primary challenge of the race actually pales against the challenge of committing to the training, merely running 5 days a week won't cut it, I need to structure and research my schedule and constantly adapt it.

Post edited at 23:08
 Herdwickmatt 05 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

To be fair 50k isn’t much different to marathon, so adapting a training plan from that might be a good shout. Finding (good) 50k specific training plans is a bit needle ina haystack. I have one I’ve altered as an excel file, if you want a copy as an outline just give me a message.
 

Remember to train on the terrain. If it’s a proper mountain race get your long runs done in the hills (I know this is easier said than done). I was awake at 4 yesterday to get to the hills and be back for a princess birthday party because of my kids!

 ralphio 05 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

I was in a similar position to you a couple of years ago. I got myself very confused with the hundreds of different training methods for speed that are out there on the internet. Threshold, tempo, hill sprints, pyramids, inverse pyramids, fartlek. It's a complete minefield and with kids and shift work I had no chance. What I essentially settled on was once a week id do one of the following.

5k or 10k near race pace (essentially a tempo run)

8 x shirt hill sprints 

8 x 400m sprints

This really worked for me. Not only did my pace increase but more importantly it was an easy and simple programme to follow. All other running in the week was slow base miles and a long run.

Post edited at 13:05
 Dave B 05 Jul 2020
In reply to GDes: 

Jack Daniels said tempo runs are slower than 5k pace, They should be below the pace where you accumulate lactate, at or just below the pace your are clearing it at the same rate you accumulate it. In a competitive 5k you don't care about accumulation as you can so after the race to let it clear. Where precisely that is will depend on your particular physiology. Around 12-18 seconds per km slower is where some people put it. 

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20827239/what-is-a-tempo-run/

 PPP 05 Jul 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

> Some terrible advice on this thread.

> Source: I've raced (emphasis on raced, not just finished)  a bunch of 50 k mountain races, this worked for me and isn't hugely different to what many others have done that I've discussed with.  

Do you mind sharing your training and results? 

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 wbo2 05 Jul 2020
In reply to Dave B/Ged:  I don't know why Jack Daniels get the credit for these... though I guess he popularised them.  They're a bit slower than 5km.... there's a formula that if you double distance the equivalent pace is 1sec per hundred/16 sec per mile so I'd say 30 secs a mile down from 5km pace is 1/2 marathon pace.  I tihnk that for some runs that is a bit quick as well - 2 common tempos are 30mins at 1/2 marathon pace and 40 or so at marathon pace...  and that will be pretty tough.   12 to 18 secs sounds a bit quick to me.. what's 10km pace like? For a lot of people that's going to be a big chunk of a 10k at 10k pace...

My big problem with tempos is how bad people are at calculating the right pace, and then running it though modern technology helps with that.  I think for a lot of people there are easier 'wins' that are logistically a lot easier... longish intervals mostly

 The 5km race is a bit different pacewise and effortwise -  an occasional session might be 2*3km, at a pretty tasty pace. with 4 mins recovery... however you can at that point say 'I don't want to do that on the track by myself, I'll do a parkrun as training instead thanks' and most coaches will say ok

Sorry for the random thoughts format.... working.. ufff!

 JohnBson 05 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

For context: before my first ultra I was running a 1/2 marathon every weekend sub 2 hrs with a decent amount of ascent and descent (700m+). 4:20 min miles over 5k and not too far behind that for 10. I didn't really work a proper plan and cumulative training load, did a 50k and injured my MCL at about 40k, grizzed it to the end and needed 2 months to recover and have to rehab it constantly during my subsequent training. 

Reason for injury, my supporting musculature was simply not geared up for a long race and a technical descent was enough to injure me as my stability, particularly in my glute meds wasn't up to scratch when tired. Lesson learned.

I would recommend a structured plan, progressive cumulative fatigue, focussing on a large aerobic base and specific muscular endurance workouts to target the supporting muscles which don't develop well when you only run. 

As the plan progresses you will become more tired and your 10k and 20k will appear worse (you'll be training almost entirely in z1/2 and your muscles will be tired) however after the base, intensity, specific and taper periods you should find that a) you can run 50k without too much problem and b) your 10k time is better because your body expends less energy to achieve the speed.

Uphill Athlete is a brilliant resource for training. Personally I had to change my mindset from racing myself every training session, constantly trying to better my last circuit, to running in a HR zone and remembering that the race was the goal and the training was just a tool. 

 JohnBson 05 Jul 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

Interesting that your weekend runs are clearly more than 40% to 50% of your training load. I think this sounds like very good advice if you are comfortable at 50k and pushing for better times. I will bear this in mind for future. 

 PPP 05 Jul 2020
In reply to JohnBson:

> 4:20 min miles over 5k and not too far behind that for 10.

Sorry, that must have been a typo? Otherwise, that puts you faster than a 5000M record. Not that it really matters, your advice on having some sort of plan is sound. 

 SouthernSteve 06 Jul 2020
In reply to PPP:

> Sorry, that must have been a typo?

per km I suspect (21 minute 5k and 43 minute 10K ?), That would give you a 90 min half which with the height gain would fit. The advise appears sound.

 JohnBson 06 Jul 2020
In reply to PPP:

Yes min/km. Or about 7min miles... Oops

 The New NickB 06 Jul 2020
In reply to PPP:

> Sorry, that must have been a typo? Otherwise, that puts you faster than a 5000M record. Not that it really matters, your advice on having some sort of plan is sound. 

That's not quite right, the men's world record held by Bekele is 12:37, which averages about 4:04 per mile.

OP Jackspratt 07 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt: Thanks everyone. Some great stuff on here, plenty for me to think about if anyone has done the northumberland 50k endurancelife ultra and has an advice then feel free to share, I'm very much out of my comfort zone on this one and looking forward to the challenge.

 Herdwickmatt 07 Jul 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

I haven't done it, but live relatively locally, the area is beautiful and is truly gorgeous when the sun is out and the wind low. It's very flat though, so it's one for proper running, looks like it could be very fast! 


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