Salomon Skyline Scotland - pricing is a joke!

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 PPP 08 Mar 2021

I had an email popping up from a race organiser that I can purchase an event T-shirt for £30 or a fleece for £70.

I pop an email back, asking if that’s not already included in the registration fee - apparently, not. Just a soft flask, I’ve been told. 
 

I don’t really enter races based on what I get back, but a single day 50K race with a price of £109 is already steep enough!
 

I’ve not raced an ultra yet (due to covid) - is this the norm? Or is it the case of the organiser capitalising on the fact that the race is extremely popular and will sell out anyway? 
 

Sorry, just a rant... 

2
 GraB 08 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

The Glencoe Skyline isn't your average ultra... Not cheap, I grant you, but the amount of organisation involved to make this sort of race happen is mind boggling.

1
 DaveHK 08 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

It's a commercial event run by a company and that kind of pricing is about par for the course for such events. Also bear in mind that the overheads and pre-race organisation for the skyline suite of races are massive. Having done it myself a few times I can see where the money goes and I think it's not really reasonable to expect such an event to be cheap.

If you want cheaper event look for low key club organised events: https://www.scottishhillrunners.uk/Calendar.aspx

Post edited at 17:06
 DaveHK 08 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

> I had an email popping up from a race organiser that I can purchase an event T-shirt for £30 or a fleece for £70.

> I pop an email back, asking if that’s not already included in the registration fee - apparently, not. Just a soft flask, I’ve been told. 

Ourea events surveyed competitors a few years ago about what they'd like 'included' in the entry price. There were lots of different suggestions and they decided to just go with entry price covers entry (and a post race meal I think) and any other merch was extra. Makes sense to me as a lot of race merchandise is crap quality and I don't want to be forced to pay for it. Done this way it means those who want a t-shirt etc can pay for it and get a decent one.

Post edited at 17:12
 SouthernSteve 08 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

I agree with that (I suspect I did the survey). Also Tee's for trees has been a growing trend - which seems a good addition. I would really like to stop getting stupid medals, then very cheap (read sweatshop) t shirts, but am happy with decent clothing options you pay for if people want them. 

 Denning76 08 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

Prices are going up across the board in all sports it seems. Saw a sprint triathlon with an entry fee of 80 quid the other day. Races have gone from being organised by clubs and individuals with a passion for the sport to being organised by companies seeking to make a profit. They've gone from being races to events.

Each to their own of course, but sometimes it feels like half your entry fee is going to things other than the race itself. Event villages, T-shirts you'll never wear, medals you'll bin after 5 years of never looking at it etc.

 DaveHK 08 Mar 2021
In reply to Denning76:

> Prices are going up across the board in all sports it seems. Saw a sprint triathlon with an entry fee of 80 quid the other day. Races have gone from being organised by clubs and individuals with a passion for the sport to being organised by companies seeking to make a profit. They've gone from being races to events.

Can't speak for triathlon but in hill running club races are alive and well (or would be and will be again). Yes there are more commercial events springing up but they're in addition to the club events, not instead of. 

> Each to their own of course, but sometimes it feels like half your entry fee is going to things other than the race itself. Event villages, T-shirts you'll never wear, medals you'll bin after 5 years of never looking at it etc.

Agree with this though, I can live without the tat.

Post edited at 17:49
 GraB 08 Mar 2021
In reply to Denning76:

I think there's a place for both to coexist. In the case of the smaller fell races or even the long classics, there's just nothing in it for the commercial organisations. Conversely, I don't think there's any way something like the Skyline would/could realistically be run by a club on a non-commercial, voluntary basis. I haven't a clue how much the Salomon Skyline series makes for Ourea, but I'm pretty sure that the Glencoe race must be run as a lost leader. There just aren't the numbers of entrants, even with an entry fee of £100+ and the organisation needed is massive.

 GraB 08 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

I would far rather have a pie and a pint at the end (or even a minature bottle of dodgy whisky) than a cheap tea shirt and or a medal. 

 Denning76 08 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

And fell/hill running club races remain the best. To be fair, you see the companies pushing out (and it is pushing out in those cases, rather than 'adding to') the club run events more in the triathlon sphere, but I do fear it happening in running too.

And yeah, regarding the T-shirts, half the time they are not only poor quality, but turn you into a human advertising hoarding for their sponsors.

Post edited at 17:58
 DaveHK 08 Mar 2021
In reply to GraB:

> I would far rather have a pie and a pint at the end (or even a minature bottle of dodgy whisky) than a cheap tea shirt and or a medal. 

I think Glamaig is the gold standard for value.  

 DaveHK 08 Mar 2021
In reply to Denning76:

> And fell/hill running club races remain the best. To be fair, you see the companies pushing out (and it is pushing out in those cases, rather than 'adding to') the club run events more in the triathlon sphere, but I do fear it happening in running too.

Different demographic in triathlon I think. Also a lot more organisation. I've marshalled at some local tri events and it's a really big undertaking for a club.

Roadrunner6 08 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

Wow

I guess it all costs. It'd be good if events starting publishing accounts. Tbh I don't mind expensive races if I walk away feeling I had value for money.

Some races I do. Others I pay less but walk away feeling mugged.

Toilets, insurance, infrastructure all costs..

Roadrunner6 08 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

> I think Glamaig is the gold standard for value.  

Bencathra was 50p.. 

Roadrunner6 08 Mar 2021
In reply to GraB:

> I think there's a place for both to coexist. In the case of the smaller fell races or even the long classics, there's just nothing in it for the commercial organisations. Conversely, I don't think there's any way something like the Skyline would/could realistically be run by a club on a non-commercial, voluntary basis. I haven't a clue how much the Salomon Skyline series makes for Ourea, but I'm pretty sure that the Glencoe race must be run as a lost leader. There just aren't the numbers of entrants, even with an entry fee of £100+ and the organisation needed is massive.

Yep, it's also the liability for such events. It's a lot for a club to take on.

 Herdwickmatt 08 Mar 2021
In reply to Denning76:

> Races have gone from being organised by clubs and individuals with a passion for the sport to being organised by companies seeking to make a profit. They've gone from being races to events.

> Each to their own of course, but sometimes it feels like half your entry fee is going to things other than the race itself. Event villages, T-shirts you'll never wear, medals you'll bin after 5 years of never looking at it etc.

Shane (director of Ourea) definately has a passion for the sport though. And his events are pretty damn well organised. It's a shame he no longer organises mountain marathons.

I do agree that some race fees are ridiculous but I'm not sure Ourea are scalping people here. It's a pretty unique race in a unique setting. They could probably charge more and still fill it. 

Lakeland Trails on the other hand.... £26 for a 5k. Ouch.

 SouthernSteve 08 Mar 2021
In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Ourea are pretty fair - £200 for three days for the Silva 3D. Camping and everything provided except food. 

OP PPP 08 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Thanks everyone for replies. I reread the post and it sounds a bit ridiculous eh! Still bummed a Salomon sponsored event makes a Salomon made T-shirt cost £30.  

> It'd be good if events starting publishing accounts.

I still think just being clear what’s included in the price could be a good start. Few organisers are pretty clear about that  

Roadrunner6 08 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

I think a few abuse the charity line.. and are quite vague how much goes to charity.

The great virtual run across Tennesee wasn't all for charity for example, tbf Laz never said it was, he even talked about the tax issues from making money off it yet many assumed it all went to charity. Laz said how much went to charity I think but he didn't say how much he made. With thousands doing it he could have made a sizeable fee. Which is fine, I just think transparency helps. I was doing virtual events to help groups who lost out due to races not providing funding but only did it for those who seemed transparent.

 daftdazza 09 Mar 2021
In reply to GraB:

Three peaks cyclo-cross is probably near equivalent to the glen coe skyline logistic wise but with all profits going to mountain rescue, so I am guessing big events can be done by volunteers, though can see why such a event as skyline races are best left to commercial organisation.  Sad though the ring of steall race is so expensive and sold out, Arrochar Alps race would be equivalent at fraction of price with a lot less runners unfortunately, so hopefully I will be able to support that race this year if fitness and covid allows.

 DaveHK 09 Mar 2021
In reply to daftdazza:

> Three peaks cyclo-cross is probably near equivalent to the glen coe skyline logistic wise

I'm not sure about that, it's all pretty accessable on the three peaks and course marking is pretty minimal. No need for roped safety cover either or GPS tracking and it's all over much quicker.

> so I am guessing big events can be done by volunteers, 

I think the difference here is historical, big events can continue to be run by volunteers, I doubt we'll see many new, large scale volunteer events springing up. Both 3 peaks races are quite unusual, I'm struggling to think of many other volunteer run events of comparable size.  Entry fees for the 3peaks CX are also closer to skyline prices. In fact at a price per hour the Skyline is likely to be better value!

I think a lot of club/volunteer events are pretty secure. The ones that worry me are mountain marathons where the logistics are beyond what most volunteer organisations would take on but the profit margins are not enticing to events companies.

Post edited at 07:03
 wbo2 09 Mar 2021
In reply to daftdazza:  Even if you're fit enough you wil of course be marshalling at the Arrochar alps race?

I've organised stuff in the far past, and I know some other organisers post on here - it is a lot of work for small races, and I can't even start to imagine how much grief the big mountain races are to put on (or city centre races as well, differnet challenges).   Getting a lot of marshalls out , repeatedly, takes a fair degree of management.

 DaveHK 09 Mar 2021
In reply to wbo2:

>   Getting a lot of marshalls out , repeatedly, takes a fair degree of management.

Good pal of mine was president of a fairly big and active cycling club and they really struggled to get marshalls for events. He ended up having to phone round members the week before events and use some fairly strong persuasion to get people out. He got pretty disillusioned by it, a club with over 100 members and the same half dozen folk making everything happen. Obviously a small core of people doing stuff is how most clubs work but I think if you're going to race in the colours you need to do your bit.

Post edited at 07:47
 galpinos 09 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

You've just picked a massive corporate event. If you want cheap, pick a fell race or mountain marathon (MMs aren't 'cheap' but represent very good value).

I'm glad events aren't giving out free t-shirts and (especially) medals anymore. What a waste that used to be.

 summo 09 Mar 2021
In reply to galpinos:

> I'm glad events aren't giving out free t-shirts and (especially) medals anymore. What a waste that used to be.

Curiously I was looking for something yesterday in boxed up stuff and came across a plaque for the 1996 Hadleigh 10, that's probably not seen daylight for 20 + years. 

At many Scandinavian events, mtb, run, ski... the neighbouring clubs, also provide support for marshaling, car parks, drink stations etc.. a proportion of the entry fee is then shared out around them, mainly to subsidise or provide free training, entry fees and often accommodation for kids/juniors. 

 galpinos 09 Mar 2021
In reply to summo:

I'm turning into a sentimental old git but there's something special about, on the first mid week fell race of the season, having been beaten by wiry old men and women 20+ years my senior, walking down from the finish fine to the second hand car forecourt to buy a cup of tea and a cake from the local scouts and look at the paper slips being pinned to the result board.

 The New NickB 09 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

Calderdale Way Relay? 1,200 people over 50+ miles of the Calderdale Way. Organised by Halifax Harriers, I think the RO might be a UKC contributor. Certainly a bigger event, both logistically and in numbers of participants than the Y3P Fell Race.

 summo 09 Mar 2021
In reply to galpinos:

> walking down from the finish fine to the second hand car forecourt to buy a cup of tea and a cake from the local scouts and look at the paper slips being pinned to the result board.

Sounds like an orienteering event in the present age. There are live results  but they'll still staple them up on a board, and you can get a bit of cake off a kid who probably hasn't washed their hands since they went to the portaloo.

 DaveHK 09 Mar 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

> Calderdale Way Relay? 1,200 people over 50+ miles of the Calderdale Way. Organised by Halifax Harriers, I think the RO might be a UKC contributor. Certainly a bigger event, both logistically and in numbers of participants than the Y3P Fell Race.

Not one I knew about. I'm sure there are others too, I just couldn't think of any!

 Jim Lancs 09 Mar 2021

'Amateur' clubs are quite capable of organising any level of event if the will is there. Scottish orienteering clubs cooperate to put on the biennial Six Day O Event which caters for 3500 international (including elite competitors) from all over the world, to run at six different venues, on newly surveyed maps on more than 20 courses each day. The entry fee is £22 or £8 for students / unwaged.

Whilst it's true that lots of people these days like the convenience of 'pay and play' (from cycle sportives to the Fastnet Race, to climbing Everest), the problem of getting people to be to be contributive club members is hardly new.  This (IIRC) was from the same debate within BCU circles back in the 80s:

Being a good club member:

Don’t go to any meetings.   If you do go; go late.

If you don’t attend, find fault with the work of those who do.

Never accept a position on the committee as it’s easier to criticise than to do.

Nevertheless, always complain that appointment to the committee must be via the 'old boys network' as you’ve never been elected.

If asked in a meeting if you have anything to contribute, say you have nothing to add. Then after the meeting, waste no time in telling everyone how things ought to be done.

If you do bother to attend a meeting, vote to do something and then go home and do nothing.

At all times do nothing more than absolutely necessary, but when other members selflessly roll up their sleeves and willingly use their ability to help matters along, howl that the club is run by a clique.

When a trip / meeting / event is organised, tell everyone that money is being wasted on blow-outs which make a big noise but accomplish nothing.

When no trips / meetings / visits are held, tut knowingly and tell everyone the club is dead.

Never ask for a place on a trip or visit until all the places are gone. Then swear you have been cheated out of your place. If you do go, don’t pay for it.

Fall back on your subscription as long as possible.

At every possible opportunity, threaten to resign.

 summo 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

Exactly. Lakes 5 days, JK etc... even ORingen which sees 10,000 is club organised. 

 Dark-Cloud 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

Brilliant, I like that, it describes pretty much every club in the land, our cycling club was forced to rota the marshalling so we knew it was covered, it worked out at roughly 2 evening 10's in a year per member, we still had no shows....

 Jim Lancs 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

>  . . . . it worked out at roughly 2 evening 10's in a year per member, we still had no shows....

It's not easy - I know Lakeland Orienteering offer entry fee discounts for all the helpers and sailing clubs often have strict rotas, but there's still a huge disparity in member's input.

However, the good news is that all these 'pay to play' haven't killed off the amateur club. In fact there's been quite a revival in some cases despite what was generally feared 10 / 15 years ago. People have come to realise they always offer far better value for money and very often, are actually better events. Even Audax UK, the epitome of the low cost, no frills activity has seen a significant increase in numbers. Once cyclists saw through the hype of the sportives claiming to be the world's hardest / or the Mega ride 100 / or Extreme Enduro / Wild on the edge Cycling, or whatever for £50, they discovered a world of longer, harder rides for £6.

 galpinos 09 Mar 2021
In reply to summo:

The race I described is still like that now, assuming it re-starts post lockdown. Sounds like I should be checking out some orienteering events as well, seems like my kind of scene!

 galpinos 09 Mar 2021
In reply to the thread:

What an inspirational thread. Great to see so many "amateur" events and clubs going storing in running/orienteering and cycling. Long may it continue.

(It has also made me think I should role up my sleeves a bit more for my local club......)

Post edited at 10:10
 summo 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

I think clubs will always have a place for those who train and compete year on year. They rarely ask for much cash, your time is more precious to them.

 Dave B 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Denning76:

Old Style:

- Club organised and uses any profits to support club facilities and events

- Marketing via entryform/ flyers at other events, or adverts in magazines, or event listings in those magazines

- Small numbers of individuals do majority of work; large numbers needed to run event

- Paper entries, cheques, free bank accounts, but lots of effort by treasurer and race entry clerk

- First Aid by Volunteer charity organisation, where donation for time was OK

- Risk Assessment and amelioration of risks at a low level if done at all

- Results by in person recording using paper, pen and stopwatch 

- final results by post if you left an SAE and 50p, results photocopied 

- Tea and fairy cake at the end costing 50p

- No 'Free' T Shirt, or one of such low quality with single colour print that you wear on the way home from the event as you forgot to bring a spare one

- No Medals unless you win a category

New Style

- For profit event management (typically paying one person to do all the organisation), event may provide small profit to 'named' organisation, but more intent on publicity

- Marketing by website and online event listings sites

- Still requires large numbers of volunteers for running events

- Online entries, CC payments, payment to reduce workload

- First Aid by qualified staff paramedics, Nurses etc, by agency for payment at professional rates

- Risk Assessment is large undertaking and may require professional input on larger events

- Results recorded electronically by external organisation paying per person plus event

- Results online as event underway

- 'Technical' T shirt for £30, that costs pennies to make, is still horrible feeling and doesn't fit well but advertises the race and you only wear for training when every other item of clothing has been used up in your wardrobe. Including the low quality cotton T shirt from that race you did in 1986 that is has holes in every seam, but has 'sentimental' value.

- Decaff skinny latte with an extra shot and a twist, and a vegan, gluten free velvet cake costing £9.70

How much each event has transitioned from the first list to the second simply determines the price. The Top ones cost £2 per race; the bottom ones cost £90 per race minimum. 

In reply to summo:

> I think clubs will always have a place for those who train and compete year on year. They rarely ask for much cash, your time is more precious to them.

There's always a great atmosphere at club organised races. I've stood in the freezing cold for many an hour marshelling fell races. Learnt the hard way; don't do it in your running gear, do it in Mitchelin man style clothing!

 daftdazza 09 Mar 2021
In reply to wbo2:

I happy volunteer at various races organised by my running club, but I am not likely to take a weekend off work to help at a race I am not participating at, mainly due to holidays being tight, but I would take time off to volunteer at 3 peaks cyclo-cross as it's probably my favourite event and volunteering this year would get me a place next year.

Three peaks is expensive but mainly to cover cost, road closures etc, police can't be doing it for free, and it is cheaper than ring of steall event for same duration with profits going to local mountain rescue.

 steveriley 09 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

One of our races funds the club basically, annual subs don’t cover expenses. The rest goes to charity (and it’s a decent wedge). Our members’ agreement says you marshal or do your bit otherwise at some point in the year. It’s still the same 30% that actually do anything- c’est la vie.

Something like the 3pcx is unusual in that volunteer marshalling gets you a place next year, and has tremendous goodwill. Not as easy with a commercial setup (though plenty do). I like lower key things, but a lot of people prefer the razzmatazz events. Can’t argue with that.

 vscott 09 Mar 2021
In reply to GraB:

Agreed - it seemed to employ half the MIA/Cs in Scotland on the impressive safety setup which (rightly) comes at a substantial cost, and relatedly guess the insurance is anything but cheap... before getting into the venue hire and all the other more mundane but still needs paid for stuff.  

 wbo2 09 Mar 2021
In reply to daftdazza:

> I happy volunteer at various races organised by my running club, but I am not likely to take a weekend off work to help at a race I am not participating at,

But somebody has to.... it's a big sacrifice and we should appreciate it.

but I'm glad that you volunteer at club races.  

In reply to PPP:

400pounds for an ironman triathlon. But if you want you can do exactly the same course the day before or the day after and it costs you nothing.

Same for the skyline races I would have thought. 

I wouldn't be paying that kind of money for an event, when I used to live in the lakes I used to enjoy the 3 pound wednesday evening fell races.

Does that make me a tight arse?

1
 DaveHK 09 Mar 2021
In reply to mountain.martin:

> . But if you want you can do exactly the same course the day before or the day after and it costs you nothing.

If you enter a race you're paying for the race experience which is a different thing from just going for a run.

Roadrunner6 09 Mar 2021
In reply to daftdazza:

Not sure why but long fell races have struggled.

In Wales we lost the rhinogs and the carneddau (I think), and a few other classic ones. People forget that the lakes classics series happened because they were struggling too.

It's hard to explain why a race like the Peris struggles for numbers yet a skyrace doesn't. Obviously the terrain is even more extreme but the Peris is beautiful lines.

In reply to DaveHK:

> If you enter a race you're paying for the race experience which is a different thing from just going for a run.

I fully understand that, I was just trying to make the point that no one is obliged to pay the price of the expensive races. If you feel like they are not value for money, you can do the same course anytime you want without paying and if its important to you compare your time to the racers.

 DaveHK 09 Mar 2021
In reply to mountain.martin:

> I fully understand that, I was just trying to make the point that no one is obliged to pay the price of the expensive races. If you feel like they are not value for money, you can do the same course anytime you want without paying and if its important to you compare your time to the racers.

Seems pretty obvious to me that you can go do them yourself and equally obvious that it's a totally different thing! Depends on whether you feel the race experience is worth the race fee. 

It doesn't make you a tight arse to not do expensive races, everyone spends their money how they like. I've done the Skyline a few times and had great experiences and I've had equally great but different experiences at much smaller, club run events.

Post edited at 21:15
 Tom Briggs 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> It's hard to explain why a race like the Peris struggles for numbers yet a skyrace doesn't. Obviously the terrain is even more extreme but the Peris is beautiful lines.

The Peris Horseshoe has not been a registered FRA race for a few years I don’t think. You have to dig around on the Eryri Harriers website to find the date (unless you already know they have a FB page for the race). It just doesn’t seem to be promoted at all. Also, I guess people know it’s a really tough course. Something like Ennerdale maybe gets a similar low number of entries? But yes, it’s bonkers that the Snowdon Skyline is £100 and it’s £7 for Ras Pedol Peris!

 Nic Barber 10 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

It's important not to get confused between Fell/Hill running and ultra/trail running/skyraces. The latter are often more events, the former more community races (though the latter does have some community/race aspects)

A lot of the Ourea events, I like the look of doing them as routes/good days out but not necessarily as races. They're aware of the difference in pricing between fell/hill races and their events, and do offer good discounts to helpers to try and make the entry fees less of a hurdle to the grass roots - e.g. I helped on DB 2019, so have a heavily reduced entry fee for this year's race.

Both commercial and non-commercial have a place and can rub on together and complement each other well. If anything with their marketing and the paradox that higher fees = more entry, the more commercial races may take the brunt of the less experienced clientele, protecting fell/hill running somewhat from the potentially dangerously inexperienced.

In terms of commercial pushing out fell/hill running - I know the FRA are quite active in contact with authorities and major land owners (e.g. national park/UU/FC in the Lakes) to negotiate fell running access and promoting it to land owners as a sustainable part of the local community/history that puts money into the village hall/church roof/local MRT etc., and not just a money making opportunity. In the tightening up of their race registration requirements recently they've doubled down on this aspect of protecting and separating Fell/Hill running from commercial pressures.

 DaveHK 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> It's hard to explain why a race like the Peris struggles for numbers yet a skyrace doesn't. Obviously the terrain is even more extreme but the Peris is beautiful lines.

Promotion is a big part of that. I also think that despite Skyrace type events being promoted as 'extreme' they are actually accessible to more people than many hill races due to the full course marking and no navigational element. 

Roadrunner6 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Briggs:

> The Peris Horseshoe has not been a registered FRA race for a few years I don’t think. You have to dig around on the Eryri Harriers website to find the date (unless you already know they have a FB page for the race). It just doesn’t seem to be promoted at all. Also, I guess people know it’s a really tough course. Something like Ennerdale maybe gets a similar low number of entries? But yes, it’s bonkers that the Snowdon Skyline is £100 and it’s £7 for Ras Pedol Peris!

I told the organizer years ago about that. He changes the date and doesn't advertise it well.

The lakes long, jura etc are almost always the same weekend each year. The ben was always the same. The Peris could get die off which would be sad. I was gutted to never run the rhinogs.

 Lrunner 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

I've not heard of this race but it sounds great, if it runs this year I'll go for it. I have to say I much prefer small local races that cost less then a tenner (£7 seemed the standard cost when I lived in Scotland). You get a lot of top quality athletes in these races and yet they have a total amature feel.  I paid £70 to do the Glen Coe Marathon and it was frankly soulless. It felt like everything was there to make a quick buck. It was for charity but who knows how much they got after costs. 

I guess the bigger the event the more it costs to organise but I'm always impressed how smaller clubs can run races with 120 plus runners for peanuts. 

Post edited at 17:25
Roadrunner6 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Lrunner:

> I've not heard of this race but it sounds great, if it runs this year I'll go for it. I have to say I much prefer small local races that cost less then a tenner (£7 seemed the standard cost when I lived in Scotland). You get a lot of top quality athletes in these races and yet they have a total amature feel.  I paid £70 to do the Glen Coe Marathon and it was frankly soulless. It felt like everything was there to make a quick buck. It was for charity but who knows how much they got after costs. 

> I guess the bigger the event the more it costs to organise but I'm always impressed how smaller clubs can run races with 120 plus runners for peanuts. 

That's the thing, you don't at the Peris or many (North) Welsh races. The strength in depth just wasn't there.

I've won the Peris. The top runners don't travel to it so it's largely local runners who travel over.

It's a brilliant race though.

 d_b 10 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

You can do the route any time you want for free. What you are paying for is bragging rights.

Roadrunner6 10 Mar 2021
In reply to d_b:

> You can do the route any time you want for free. What you are paying for is bragging rights.

That's not true.

It's support, competition, aid, etc.

 d_b 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Competition is only important if you care about bragging rights or otherwise lack motivation. Support can generally be arranged.

The op was specifically whining about the cost of branded swag that doesn't really have any other uses.

 DaveHK 10 Mar 2021
In reply to d_b:

> Competition is only important if you care about bragging rights or otherwise lack motivation. 

There's a great atmosphere of friendly competition in hill races that has nothing to do with bragging.

My experience is that people in hill races don't lack motivation but push each other on to even better things.

 Lrunner 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

bodes well for me winning something for a change! The thing that always impressed me in Scotland was how far people would travel. It didn't matter where you go they'll always be a Deeside or a Lochaber vest. I myself would travel up to 100mile for even a short race many because it was a nice Social. 

I do hope there will be at least a couple of local races this summer now I'm in North Wales. 

 Tom Briggs 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Lrunner:

> I do hope there will be at least a couple of local races this summer now I'm in North Wales. 

Arenig Fawr is brilliant if that happens in July. Only 30 starters when I did it - v low-key, but a great course with some proper rough stuff.

 summo 10 Mar 2021
In reply to d_b:

> You can do the route any time you want for free. What you are paying for is bragging rights.

Or for the pleasure of running and racing others, in a sport where there aren't really any bragging rights.

Quick promotion of a free orienteering app. Usynligo where you can run courses any time on your own.

You run courses that are purely electronic, no controls on the ground. Not sure how much it's caught on in the uk so far. 

Post edited at 21:50
 ChrisBrooke 10 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

I considered running the Skyline race but it did look a bit steep....

Roadrunner6 11 Mar 2021
In reply to d_b:

> Competition is only important if you care about bragging rights or otherwise lack motivation. Support can generally be arranged.

> The op was specifically whining about the cost of branded swag that doesn't really have any other uses.

That's just not true.

Competition drives you on. It fires the adrenalin. It's incomparable racing to time trialling and FKTs. I do it all, hold 20 plus FKTs I think, but really miss racing.

Roadrunner6 11 Mar 2021
In reply to Lrunner:

Still plenty of races.

Peris and 1000m peaks are the two obvious classics. 

But moelwyns, moel eilio are brilliant mid distance races.

Cnicht and hebog are two classic short races.

Plus a fun Tuesday night series which I'm guessing isn't on this spring.

 Lrunner 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Thanks mate, keen to give these ago. I guess they are harder to find then in Scotland. Is there a website with a calendar?

R

Roadrunner6 15 Mar 2021
In reply to Lrunner:

https://sites.google.com/site/welshfra/

They typically list most races. Don't seem to have anything up at the moment for obvious reasons. And then keep an eye on local club sites like denbigh and Eryri. 

 Lrunner 16 Mar 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

smashing thanks

 cousin nick 16 Mar 2021
In reply to PPP:

Unfortunately it seems to be a growing trend.

Also, some of the event companies have spotted that there are some very popular club-run events/courses and have now hijacked these routes to run as paid-for events!

I'm being more picky nowadays about which events I enter. At the end of the day, if its on rights of way or access land, then we can go and run it anytime.

I'm a grumpy old git aren't I?!!

N


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