UKH

Following on from the sleeping bag thread lets post our kitlists. I think sub 4 for a solo is where a bag should be. What do people think? Any suggestions for cutting weight (other than sleeping bag!)

Laser comp 1    670
Balloon bed    150
Cumulus sleeping bag    660
Lighter    18
Esbit stove    15
Fuel cube    90
Titanium cup    70
Windshield    21
Petzl elight    27
Survival bag    112
First aid kit    82
Terra nova Laser rucksack    284
Montane Minimus jacket    214
Raidlight Ultra MP Trousers     110
Haglof essens downjacket    260
Baselayers    400
Socks    60
Buff    31
Gloves    34
Food    700 
 

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I would add +10g for a bin bag. Just because you'll sweat, which will be absorbed by your rucksack, then your sleeping bag and clothes, adding weight. (I guess your survival bag is vacuum packed.)

A water bottle or hydration pack, or is that under food?

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

That food looks awfully heavy, surely you don't need to eat?! 😜 At least the bag will get lighter as you go!

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Depending on category and speed a summer MM might be a bit different from the OMM in some of that.

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

You can lose 50g off a TN Laser pack and only improve it by doing so! Get the scissors out. If you're handy with a sewing machine then losing 100g isn't too tricky.

You mention the sleeping bag - that's an easy one to lose 400g from.

Does the baselayer weight include what you're going to be wearing? If not, then 400g is a lot of spare underwear!

If it's warm and you're definitely not going to need them then carry nitrile gloves and that'll save 25g.

I've not used a balloon bed but bubble wrap is a lot lighter. It's comfortable enough on grass but it provides basically no insulation so it can get cold.

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Definitely room to cut on that list. Especially if it's for a summer race. Cut the food, or find more calorie dense, lighter food.

Cut out all tags - hangloops - any extra crap dangling off your bag.

Spare socks are an indulgence IMHO. As others have said - that's a lot of baselayers! Either get lighter, or think about how your layers can double up.

FWIW, a "friend" carried a pair of nylon stockings as his "full length tights" and had zero issues at midcamp on the SLMM - saying that, you may not be so lucky

OMM bag weight for me is generally around 4.5kg and I carry a lot of extra warmth. 

In reply to Mr Fuller:

So yeah I reweighed the baselayers Hellyhansen and skins are actually 260g! So that’s a saving of 140g sort of.

That would probably be my OMM kit, the down jacket is optional on the Saunders it tends to not get carried but the ROC it generally does.

Yes the socks are an indulgence.

Food wise it’s all pretty calorie dense. Looking at 4snack bar style things and then a pack of shotbloks a day. I think I’d struggle to cut that down. I run long score so I’m not sure any less is feasible for 7hours

Ill look at chopping labels...

In reply to greg_may_: Also I know a “friend” who did that with the girly tights. Not sure what denier though!

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Don’t get me wrong I’m always fascinated by efforts to reduce weight and ultralight is definitely the way to go. But for a MM remember that any minuscule benefits that might be achieved from saving a few gms of packweight will be lost from poor navigational decisions, weather conditions, fitness. Unless you’re operating at the top end of the elite category then   I doubt it will be worth the expense, but it will be good to hear what you settle on.

This coming from someone who did his first MM carrying a bottle of red wine on day one (and the empty on day two). 

In reply to Jack Frost:

Saunders - pre-ordered beer at midcamp - has ended day two for a few people over the years

In reply to Jack Frost:

I think I disagree, it’s not just about operating at the Elite end. Whilst where you come might only improve a minuscule amount, what’s more fun running in the hills with a bag weighing 3.5kg or one which weighs 4.5kg? It’s not just about mm I use my kit on my own as well to go “fast packing “ to use that awful modern term for having a really long run. 
 

Also I used to work in a gear shop so like shiny kit. 

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

It's been a good few year since I've done the OMM or similar, but...

I never bothered with a mat - a bit of bubble wrap is fine.

Trouser were the lightest bit of (homemade) pertex. Never wore them except perhaps at the overnight camp.

No down jacket. No use running and at camp you'll be in your sleeping bag 99% of the time.

Fresh socks + base in the overnight camp with a couple of small plastic bags between dry sock and wet shoes.

No buff (don't think they existed in my day!) or gloves.

Food seems a bit heavy - dehydrated?

Black bin bag (with holes cut for arms & head) as waterproof layer at camp. My jacket was generally wet through after a day running in the clag, so not ideal over new dry base in camp. It's important to stay dry & warm in camp whatever the weather does otherwise your performance on day 2 will suffer.

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

What's more fun, sleeping on bubble wrap or a decent mat?

No right or wrong answers to this of course, it depends on your personal approach. 

I like a bit more comfort personally and looking at what others carry that adds less than a kilo. I've never felt like that's cost us a place but it's hard to call and I've not done that many mountain marathons.

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I would swap the down jacket for a synthetic instead as then doubles up as an on-the-move warm layer and to increase the warmth of the sleeping bag. You could then look to get a lighter bag(unless you are a cold sleeper).

Windshield - I use doubled up tin foil and twigs/1g tent pegs  

In reply to Jack Frost:

Surely whisky with its greater density of alcohol would be better than red wine. You'd only need to carry a half bottle 😂

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I'm surprised you're thinking of carrying a heavy lighter, 2 matches should be enough, one for evening, one for morning.

Cut short of course 😀

In reply to DaveHK:

I’ve never used bubble wrap and think it sounds pretty miserable. I’m a fan of a balloon bed, but I’m pretty light and also the balloons provide midcamp entertainment. Having said that it weighs the same as the new thermarest uberlight mats so I might upgrade, then it’s light and comfy!

I’ve known competitors take only 2matches and a solid fuel block to meet kit requirements. They were forced to prove it could warm a cup of water afterwards though!

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Bubble wrap is quite variable. There's the very thin stuff, but if you can find the smooth sided stuff (double layer) it is extremely light and both warmer and more comfortable (it doesn't pack down as well though). If you can find a 4 foot length then that sets you up nicely for the night. Two lengths is seriously deluxe. Balloon beds are heavier, but smaller - easier to fit in the bag anyway.

As others have said, the sleeping bag is the single biggest target - PHD sale is on

b

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Yes the entertainment of *POP* *POP* *POP* Damn it, that was my last one!  

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

The bubble wrap isn't for comfort, it's for insulation. I usually found that after a day's running round the hills, I could sleep well on the ground as long as I was warm. Besides, from what I remember, the KIMM overnight camp ground was usually very 'soft'. Like a waterbed sometimes.

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I was taking the p*ss out of how obsessive the weight reduction antics can get. It's almost funnier to find out that the truth is even worse 😀

One advantage of bubble wrap is that it doesn't take up much room on day 2.

Hold on a minute, I've just reread the thread, I thought balloon bed was a term for a style of lightweight bed, maybe a trade name. Does it really mean a bed made from blow up balloons? That's even more obsessively funny.

In reply to Michael Hood:

So yeah... http://www.balloonbed.co.uk/ ...it's not as bad as you think. They never all pop in the night....

In reply to Michael Hood:

It does. It's even funnier than you think.

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I have upgraded to a small uberlite (150g) for this year, I just bought it in the R&R Thermarest clearance (old valve so half price). I've unpicked the balloon tubes in the bottom of my sleeping bag (ME Xero MM) and it slides in a treat. It's a little tight in the bag across my hips/thighs though so some more mods might be in order.......

Next on my list to upgrade is the sac, I'm still using my old OMM Classic 25L. It has done a good 12 years of MMs, general running, commuting to work, walking etc.

In reply to galpinos:

The new OMM yoke style bags look interesting but it’s a lot of pennies. I had a minimalist Inov8 bag which I got for marshalling a really early Ourea (before it was Ourea) event about 12years who which is just still going, but upgraded to a terra nova one which is just the same design. Minimal but it works.

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I've an OMM Phantom 20 - after 3 years the yoke harness is starting to show a lot of wear. It's definitely a race only bag - not a day to day bag. It is quite light though. 

In reply to greg_may_:

How did you find the yoke system? It seems a bit gimmicky, does it work well?

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

It works well, very comfortable. Always have had the feeling that I need to be careful putting the bag on when it's loaded - but forget about it when I'm running and thrutching through rocks and briars

Would I buy a new one? I'm not sure. I've put two holes in the material on internal seams early on- I repaired them easily enough. The small pocket on the top that was seam welded failed after a year, outside warranty, which I also fixed. Mine was an early one, so perhaps they've fixed these issues.

It's light. It works well. It's minimal. Can't really fault it. The new versions are a tad bigger and have a better water carrying capacity - good and bad. But until I kill this one, I'll hold off.

Also have a "traditional" OMM sack that comes out for winter so I have a bit more space for kit. Still going after a lot longer.

In reply to greg_may_:

I could always buy one of these to shed another 230g...

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/tents-shelters-c25/all...

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Or this to ditch even more... https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/tents-shelters-c25/all...

In reply to greg_may_:

Would then need to carry poles...probably hard to thumb the map and use a thumb compass whilst poling!

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

You can get or make stand alone carbon or alloy poles for trekking pole tents, I did that for my Trekkertent Stealth for mountain marathons.

Would that Big Agnes thing pass kit check I wonder?

In reply to DaveHK:

I saw those Trekkertents before I got my LaserComp, they look like a cracking bit of kit, and probably quite easy to spot in a field of terra nova tents! They had stopped production at the time, and I ended up getting a new Lasercomp off ebay massively reduced. Before that I had a vango single skin thing, which was pretty comfy and spacious for 2 people.

I'm not sure I'd like to be in that Big Agnes tent in much above a light breeze. It looks (and I'm sure it isn't....) fragile. 

The tent I always wanted was one of those blue tunnel tents, looked like a slug and bent over in a stiff breeze. They were just iconic!

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

You still see the blue slugs out. Perform well....when there is no wind and you use every other tent around you as a windbreak

I've a Telemark 2 ULW - I like it as I've not yet managed to break the poles. But I can't justify paying for a new tent until we kill it. 

In reply to greg_may_:

Who manufactures the blue slugs? I assumed they were just a niche thing made by a bloke in his garage!

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

Sup Air. They do/did paragliding kit. I borrowed one years ago. Neat idea but I'd not be swapping my Laser anytime soon 😂. 

In reply to Herdwickmatt:

I'm a big fan of Big Agnes tents. I've had a 1.2kg Seedhouse SL 2 for around 8 years and it's brilliant. Got it in the US because there weren't any UK distributors then, and it's still doing OK after 15-20 nights a year. For an American tent is does a good job keeping rain out and in summer the ventilation is excellent.

The super fancy sub-kilo things look interesting but pricy!

In reply to london_huddy:

BA make some nice gear - Mrs B has one of their zipperless bags (the Backcountry Bed) and it is much closer to a bed than a sleeping bag for the weight. Very comfy.

For the An Teallach and (final) Harris LAMMs we used an REI Quarter Dome 2; the REI models are made in the same factory as the BA ones, I believe. The closest thing to it currently is https://www.rei.com/product/147863/rei-co-op-quarter-dome-sl-2-tent (slightly heavier than our older version). 1.2kg but both parties can sit up in their own bell, with no crawling over each other to get in and out. 2 entrances was pretty deluxe for MMs - feels like cheating!

Prior to that we used a Kimmlite SubKilo, a single skin 2 pole design that managed to be only marginally lighter but wetter, more cramped, ill ventilated and impossible to get in or out of when cramp had set in. As we were always middle of the pack finishers we aren't needing to suffer for a good placing, so opted for comfort at a marginaly increased weight instead! The Sup'Air cloches had plenty of floor space if you didn't mind lying down for 16 hours in the rain....

I have just received a Durston X-Mid 2P (arrived as lockdown started in NZ which wasn't great timing). I am sufficiently old and knackered that I took walking poles on my last MM and it was much easier(!) so I can take a frankly huge tent for 1.1kg now.  https://durstongear.com/product/x-mid-2p -  I'm quite excited to take it out for a spin. 

BTW the golden rule of balloon beds is take twice as many balloons

b

In reply to Herdwickmatt:> I saw those Trekkertents before I got my LaserComp, they look like a cracking bit of kit, and probably quite easy to spot in a field of terra nova tents! 

I really like mine. I went for the Stealth 1.5 and it's actually ok for 2. I had a Laser 2 before and much prefer the Stealth. I got the rear vent and heavier fabric but it's still under a kilo with the carbon poles. You could get pretty light with the cuben fibre options they've got now but they weren't available when I ordered. It's also really nice to support a cottage industry like that.

In reply to DaveHK:

500 notes for the cuben stealth 2! Crikey. But 640g is unarguably light. The 1.5 looks "cosy" - I remember our old Kimmlite was one of the taking it in turns to breath in type...

The X-Mid 2P is less than half the price, and less than twice the weight I guess. 

The awful truth is that 240 quid hurts less than losing 2 stone of lard from round my midriff!

b

In reply to ben b:

Mine was about £230, cuben fibre is expensive and apparently harder to work with.

I think the 1.5 is roomier than a Laser Comp 2 but a lot harder to get in and out of!