Modern running events

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 Rampikino 23 May 2018

Following the sideline discussions in a neighbouring thread...

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/running/plymouth_half_marathon_numpty-685...

A question - are we destroying running events by building up expectations for runners?

This is nothing to do with the individual achievements of runners, fast or slow.  But have we now reached a situation where the paraphernalia around runners and the costs involved have turned it into a bit of an experiential circus?

Nowadays your average half marathon will come in at £30 or more and for that you can normally expect:

* Chip timing

* A chunky bespoke medal

* A technical t-shirt

* Race photography 

* Water, gels and sports drinks along the route

* A goody bag

* Closed roads

 

There’s not a lot of this that’s absolutely necessary but seems to be prevalent now and, of course, drives up the entry costs significantly.

Contrast this with a lot of fell runs that are under £10, have no “stuff” but are friendly, well organised and popular among clubs especially.

Are we making a mockery out of running or does the evolution increase choice and get people involved.  The parkrun I set up is popular with beginners a  beginners and club runners alike, but the simplicity is no doubt attractive too.

One direction we are heading is a turn off to me - mud runs, colour runs, obstacle courses.  Mostly because these feel as though they are moving away from running and more towards team, participation photo opportunity challenges to motivate groups of friends and generate social media likes.  I’m sure they achieve a lot for charities and people who want the challenge, but for running?

There will always be good local events, but in future will runners want to do them if there is not a whole lot of “stuff” thrown in?

Post edited at 21:30
 plyometrics 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Understand your concerns, but if an event gets people running and more active it can only be a good thing.

People’s motivations differ. Some people crave the medal and theatrics, others prefer the simplicity of getting lost in clag for only 5 quid. 

It’s up to the individual themselves to decide which, if any, events they choose to enter and I’m sure running events of all types and sizes will continue to flourish, particularly if they’re well organised and offer value in relation to what you pay.

 

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

Yep, it’s definitely not an attempt to dismiss any reason for running - we have some fantastic stories from our parkrun. It’s more about the spiral and whether, ultimately, this will price a lot of runners out of events.

 SouthernSteve 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I like a t-shirt as long as decent quality - a good talking point. Medals for waddling around a course (I am not fast) is a complete waste. Road closure is I suspect a likely consequence of our increased need for risk assessment / precaution.

 plyometrics 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Fortunately, you only need to check out http://www.ukresults.net/2018cal.html to be reminded there’s plenty of great, VFM, local races to be had without all the razzmatazz!

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to SouthernSteve:

I have a drawer full of medals but most are meaningless to me - it’s the performance that matters.

I tend to give the t-shirts away!

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

RunABC is also a good resource.

You seem to be suggesting that, over time, things will settle and find their own level? (Rather than my suggested spiral?)

 Dave B 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I've never been fussed by medals, t shirts are OK if its a special race, but mostly I just want the  race.

A medal if you place maybe. No cups or trophies, just a medal. Maybe age group medals for 5 year age groups. 

But a marathon for £15, half for 12, 10 mile for £10, and 8 for a 10k would be about right. 

Triathlon prices make me want to cry. 

Some of my friends feel different and won't enter a race with a poor medal. 

 

 

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to Dave B:

Looking on social media, running bling is a massive motivator for some. You can even enter virtual races to bump up your bling.

 The New NickB 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Even though I am RO for a fairly big half marathon with a corporate sponsor, medals, t-shirts, marketing budget etc yes. I love old school racing where you turn up and pay a fiver and run. Thankfully still plenty of them around me. I help organise a few as well. They sort of both have a place, but I do wish  that those people who just do the big expensive events would try the charms of local races. Of course then there is parkrun, people of every ability just turning up and running.

I was helping out a fell race tonight, winner took home a box of washing powder.

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> Even though I am RO for a fairly big half marathon with a corporate sponsor, medals, t-shirts, marketing budget etc yes. I love old school racing where you turn up and pay a fiver and run. Thankfully still plenty of them around me. I help organise a few as well. They sort of both have a place, but I do wish  that those people who just do the big expensive events would try the charms of local races. Of course then there is parkrun, people of every ability just turning up and running.

> I was helping out a fell race tonight, winner took home a box of washing powder.

Love it.

we once entered the Antrobus Cabbage Canter where ever finisher got a cabbage!

That race, started in the wake of the first London Marathon, is now defunct as it couldn’t drum up enough support. Needless to say there was no chip timing, a very basic medal and no t-shirt. 

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

PS are you allowed to say which half marathon?

 DaveHK 23 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

>   I was helping out a fell race tonight, winner took home a box of washing powder.O

One of our club races has sacks of spuds for prizes.

As for what you get for your entry fee like most above, I'm happy with nowt or a t-shirt for bigger races. Stuc a'Chroin did a coaster last year which was a nice touch. Medals are almost always crap looking imo.

I've been surveyed by a couple of race organisers recently to ask what you'd like to get and what you're not fussed about so it's something they think about.

 

Post edited at 22:16
 The New NickB 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Rochdale. Or rather the Williams BMW Rochdale Half Marathon, 10k and Fun Run. It’s a really good event and it definately has its place, but I do wish that considerations about medal and t-shirt design were a smaller part of it.

 

 Dave B 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

You ought to  earn the cabbage by placing

I sort of understand the need for bling, but once you have a few medals what do you do with them? 

 

 The New NickB 23 May 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

Coasters I like, it was Calderdale Fell Relay last weekend, £66 for a team of 12 everyone who takes part gets a coaster and if they go to the finish some pie. I’m currently looking at my coffee table with about 8 years of coasters.

 DaveHK 23 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> I do wish that considerations about medal and t-shirt design were a smaller part of it.

I've got a bee in my bonnet about the t-shirts you get at events. I can't stand the crap 'technical' ones lots of races give out and would much rather have a cotton one I can wear down the pub without looking too much of a fud.

 

 The New NickB 23 May 2018
In reply to Dave B:

> I sort of understand the need for bling, but once you have a few medals what do you do with them? 

Post endless pictures on social media, then get one of these.

http://www.flyingrunner.co.uk/product/medal-display-runner-female/?gclid=EA...

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to Dave B:

In a drawer!

I actually like the Helsby Half medal as it comes in a case and is actually more of a souvenir coin. Feels more like a genuine memento.

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

Medal hangers are very popular these days!

This is part of the paraphernalia I was talking about.

Post edited at 22:28
OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> Coasters I like, it was Calderdale Fell Relay last weekend, £66 for a team of 12 everyone who takes part gets a coaster and if they go to the finish some pie. I’m currently looking at my coffee table with about 8 years of coasters.

That looks like great value and with the kind of memento you can enjoy.

 Ridge 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I think running has become far more of facebook photo opportunity, and is now a 'consumer product'.

At a personal level I just can't see why someone would pay £15 to run a 5k round a forestry track at night, for example. Also some of the rat race stuff makes me think "How f***ing much???!".

I'm also amazed at the amount of shiny kit, UD vests, OMM jackets, belts full of gels etc that people seem to need when they just do the odd 10k.

However it gets them out and running, they seem to really enjoy it, and it keeps kit manufacturers in business.

A few decent runners I know bemoan the fact that many marathons and halfs are now mainly charity fun runs. As an indifferent club runner who doesn't like racing that doesn't really affect me though.

One think that I do find hugely positive is parkrun. I went to a really crap 1980s Yorkshire comp, where the PE staff made Brian Glover in 'Kes' look a like a paragon of professionalism. I reckon 90% of the school dumped PE as soon as they could, most never to take up sport of any kind again. (I reckon that's why I don't like racing, gives me flashbacks ). Parkrun seems to really engage and enthuse people of all ages, abilities and shapes.

OP Rampikino 23 May 2018
In reply to Ridge:

I agree with all of this.

parkrun genuinely inspires - we have had some very moving feedback from parkrunners who have been able to use it for their own motivation and do so in an accessible way.

 shuffle 23 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

£30! I'm not interested in race medals at all and they always just end up stuffed in a drawer somewhere. They just seem to be pretty pointless bits of tat to me.

I'm always happy when a race ends with a pie/cake/soup/beer or a cup of tea though

 DancingOnRock 23 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

“Experiencal Circus” - I love that. 

I’m race director of a low key self navigated race with options for different distances. We get all sorts. Some learn the route, some read the map, some read the instructions, some follow their GPS. We don’t have chip timing, people check in and out themselves. 

We find that the most asked question is “Is there a medal?”, after of course; “Are there any toilets on the course?”

The good thing is there are loads of races out there for all kinds of people. Lots of people want to run with their earphones, the only way of doing that now is on closed road races. People will pay a premium for that. It strikes me as odd that you choose to run with several thousands of people but don’t actually want to engage with any of them. 

Unfortunately ‘The Marathon’ has a lot to answer for. People see it on the TV and aspire to it and judge all races by that standard. 

People I know have run Brighton and “hated the last 4 miles, there’s no support, just when they need it”. Personally, I want to be in my own little bubble in the last 6miles. I can completely do without people screaming “You can do it” and “Not far now”.

Circus. That’s not far from it. 

Post edited at 23:18
 ben b 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Worth a read of a couple of books that take this subject further:

1) the always fascinating Richard Askwith (who wrote Feet In The Clouds, the best book ever written about UK hill running and probably one of the best sports books of the last 20 years) wrote Running Free about this; and

2) the (rather idiosyncratic) Boff Whalley's Run Wild.  

Both explore your premise, with variable outcomes. Askwith's is more serious in tone and Whalley's unsurprisingly a bit more anarchic, but I think it overplays the "I'm a rule breaker" premise too much. Nonetheless the basic message (just go for a run if you want to!) resonates well with me and, I suspect, many on this thread.

 

b

 summo 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I tend to agree. The days of reading the back of runners world, sending off a cheque with a sae then getting your number back, where you were even expected to supply your own pins have long gone.

There are still what you might call lots of old school runs around.. but there are just as many glouting on Facebook that you survived climbing 3 bales of straw events too. 

 DaveHK 24 May 2018
In reply to summo:

> I  but there are just as many glouting on Facebook that you survived climbing 3 bales of straw events too. 

I've got no issue with obstacle course events but it does make me chuckle just how much they've seeped into the public consciousness. After I did my Ramsay's Round I had to explain to a couple of curious colleagues why it wasn't really anything like a tough mudder. But then hill running isn't on most folks radar, after all, most of the time you aren't really running anyway!

 

1
 BusyLizzie 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

As an elderly late starter i have enjoyed the Reading Half Marathon, with thousands of people in my home town. What it taught me was that i can run much further than i thought i could. And that has been a spring-board for a gradual move into smaller events and more off-road running. I did a trail marathon last September, a trail half last weekend and another coming up, i'm doing lots more off-road running, adding in a bit of navigation and more hills ... All such a pleasure.

So the big events on roads started me off, but have taken me somewhere else. 

When i am an old lady in a rocking chair i shall make the t-shirts and medal ribbons into a patchwork quilt, or other ridiculous artwork, and reminisce about the roads and the crowds ... and about the hills and the bogs and the grouse that fly away squawking when you startle them on a misty day in the hills.

Post edited at 08:03
 ClimberEd 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Park run, and similar grass roots stuff is great. (for obvious reasons.)

For other races, 'that count', up to half marathon length all you need is accurate timing (chip if needed), closed roads, and water on route. For marathon length you can add food ( 'nutrition') to that. 

That is all that is needed, because that is what is needed for performance. Anything else is fluff and superfluous. It's not really about cost, it's about getting the basics right.

 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

Plenty of races that count aren’t closed roads, many high quality 5 & 10k races take place on open roads.

Sale Sizzler or Salford 10k are a couple of fairly close to me. Up to 10k, you only need water at the end.

 summo 24 May 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

I think there are really two different types of events, local events organised by running clubs.. that pretty much run them as they always have and commercial events that run to make a profit. They need or use the razzamattaz of Facebook/Instagram.. , medals,  t shirts etc.. as marketing for their next big near death 10k challenge... of course the customer is paying for that marketing in their entry fee, clever in a way. 

 ClimberEd 24 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

I don't know the events (being a softie southerner) but I'm not sure how the races work if the 'area' they run on isn't closed?  Do they use the pavement? Is half the road coned off? 

If the latter I would count this as a 'road closed' event.

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

Sections of the Wrexham 20 miler shared the road with cars this year.  They did it by asking runners to stay to the left and putting out warning signs for driver.  That was all.  A few marshals here and there but otherwise it was up to runners and drivers to watch out.

 ClimberEd 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I wouldn't like that (tbh) - I'm quite happy training running down roads, including smaller roads without pavements, but I wouldn't want to race in that situation. 

 

As for all the commercial, razzamattaz events, I find them very tiresome unless the challenge is genuinely difficult (for a fit person, not a coach potato)

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

I certainly prefer closed roads if it's something I have paid a fair amount for.  It's about expectations.

A broad question about the obstacle course events; why would anyone want to be electrocuted as part of a running/challenge event?  What is the attraction in that?

 Ridge 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Keswick half can be pretty scary sharing the road with cars and buses down the Borrowdale road!

> A broad question about the obstacle course events; why would anyone want to be electrocuted as part of a running/challenge event?  What is the attraction in that?

It's an 'SAS who dares wins extreeem near-death mega challenge experience with headbands, selfies and face paint'. Some people are in to that.

 wbo 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino/ClimberEd - for context most of the older gas races were run on open roads - you ran on the pavement, used quieter roads and there were pretty loose warnings to traffic.  

Once you start fully closing roads for 10k and up, with marshalling, then things get complicated and quickly, so you may as well go for the full package at that point in terms of race organisation

( Was the above mentioned cabbage canter the modified Cabbage Patch in Richmond.  I can't remember the exact reason that race died but it had a few years where road modifications made getting the course ''''ok' very difficult.  That was a fast 10 on open roads  - making it a slow, twisty 10 reduced it's appeal

 

 Dave B 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Even my World Champs (Age Group) Bronze is stuffed in a draw somewhere... :-/

 

 

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to wbo:

 

> ( Was the above mentioned cabbage canter the modified Cabbage Patch in Richmond.  I can't remember the exact reason that race died but it had a few years where road modifications made getting the course ''''ok' very difficult.  That was a fast 10 on open roads  - making it a slow, twisty 10 reduced it's appeal

Antrobus up in Cheshire.  Not too far away from Warrington.

 malc 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

There are lots of club events which are cheap to enter and don't involve all the bling which bungs up the draws. 

 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

Salford 10k is all on pavement, Sale Sizzler is a mix of pavement and paths within a park. Salford will be won in under 30 minutes, Sale sometimes in less than 14 minutes and is often a championship race and is known as a PB race.

You don’t need closed roads to perform.

 timjones 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I guess it's a case of horses for courses and anything that motivates people can't be bad?

However. I wish that medals and t-shirts were optional rather than factored onto the cost of an event. I have more than ebough shirts and medals are just clutter IMHO, there are events that I don't enter due to the extra cost that they generate.

I ran in a great hill/fell race last night. £5 entry for great scenery, a fantastic route, good company and a cup of squash sat on a handy pile of sheepsh!t at the finish. What more could you want
 

 ClimberEd 24 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

Pavement is fine. Park paths are obviously fine. Around me there aren't any pavements, so it is a slightly different kettle of fish.

 timjones 24 May 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

I'd say that you don't even need water on route> there's nothing wrong with being self supporting and carrying your own, it's not a huge amount for a half or even a full marathon.

 Neil Williams 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Running is a healthy activity that costs very little on a day to day basis and is very time efficient (100% of the time spent out of the house is spent exercising, unlike say driving to a gym first).  It can easily be built into the day.  It requires no training and has near enough zero barrier to entry - you put on a T-shirt, shorts, socks and trainers and open the front door and, whatever your fitness, progress yourself around your chosen route as quickly as you can for your level of fitness or at your chosen speed if you're out for a slower run.  You progress very quickly, too.

This being the case, running is to be encouraged, as are more races as having more races means more people will run (to train for them).

If a particular race doesn't suit your particular wants or needs, just enter a different one - there are loads of them of all kinds.

Not all suit me - for instance I have near no interest in the London Marathon, I don't like the crowds and I find pure road running a bit boring.  My favourite event of that type (the higher priced type with facilities) is Milton Keynes - the unique layout of the place allows for a road/sort-of-trail (actually tarmac, but not road) hybrid that isn't seen in many other places.

Post edited at 10:33
 Neil Williams 24 May 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I'd say that you don't even need water on route> there's nothing wrong with being self supporting and carrying your own, it's not a huge amount for a half or even a full marathon.

In a non-ultra (in an ultra I'm moving much slower) I prefer water stations, having to carry it would really slow me down, not so much because of the weight but because putting something on my back reduces my ability to disperse heat and makes me much more likely to overheat.  While I'm not a great fan of carrying a bottle in my hand or of belts - they bounce around too much.

But the thing is there are races for me and races for you.  Just enter the ones you like and ignore the others.  The market will ensure provision of the kinds of races each person likes when the sport is so popular.

It's just like climbing is getting in a way.  If you want to climb trad, go climb trad.   If you want to climb sport, go climb sport.  If you want to climb indoors, or boulder, go do that.  There are plenty of options for what people want to do, and while I (as not a boulderer) might laugh at the "topless with beanie" look (or something), not least because I don't have anything like the body to pull that off, I'm in reality happy that other people enjoy what they want to get out of the sport themselves.

Post edited at 10:37
 timjones 24 May 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

I find that the advantage of being to maintain a steady inatke when I feel the need far outweighs any disadavantages.

 Neil Williams 24 May 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I find that the advantage of being to maintain a steady inatke when I feel the need far outweighs any disadavantages.

I have tried that - but overheating is a *massive* problem for me and really slows me down particularly in summer.  And in a summer race (such as the MK Half this year which was *very* hot) I get through quite a lot - mostly over my head rather than down my throat!  A Platypus would probably be the only practical way to carry that (and I do own one) but the "rucksack" makes me too hot.

Post edited at 10:39
 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to timjones:

For road events longer than 10k it is a UKA requirement and for those events I think it makes a huge difference. 

I’m not one for drinking much whilst racing, but for a half or long access to water for temperature regulation is important, much easier to do with water from water stations than from a backpack or waist belt. Another simple fact is that I can run faster without carrying that additional equipment. Self supported events are great, but Road Racing has never been about that.

 richprideaux 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I do some occasional work as a consultant on race and outdoor event safety and have a had a good look behind the scenes of some big UK races/events. You may be surprised as to how naive or unprepared a lot of race organisers are, and that the vast majority of effort goes into branding, social media posts, sourcing sponsors and creating an 'event atmosphere' - meanwhile they have Fred 'the medic' sat in a hi-viz vest in the corner of the marquee. Fred once put a plaster on somebody and will happily try and force more water down the neck of somebody with hyponatremia whilst the 'emergency phone' goes unanswered in his pocket. The Race Director will be flapping around worrying about the timing systems and if the sponsored athletes are being tagged by the photographer for the Instagram posts - and possibly hasn't slept in days. They need this race to go well you see - it's being paid for by the entry fees for the next year's event (as is this month's mortgage payment). A lot of 'high-profile' events are surprisingly shambolic and just 'get away with it'.

Event safety/on site medical cover is always a mixed bag, and a lot of the time ROs get away with the cheapest option possible. Safety plans are only as good as the last 'incident' too - just because nobody was run over or fell off a cliff in the past 5 years doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good and robust plan in place, it just means that you've been lucky. Others assume that because they're doing it as volunteers then they won't end up in court one day explaining why they signposted runners down alongside the A41 into the path of a milk tanker.

For a certain type of event there is a lot of expectation from the competitors, and it's often more about medals, goodie bags and live online timing rather than safety plans and medical cover.

There are loads of free or cheap runs, competitions and events out there, but there is a huge market of people who ONLY want to enter big races with lots of faffery and marketing around them. 

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to richprideaux:

So in the long run will the smaller events survive or will they find it too hard to compete?  I guess clubs will help many keep going.

 richprideaux 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

> So in the long run will the smaller events survive or will they find it too hard to compete?  I guess clubs will help many keep going.

Different markets I think. Clubs, Parkruns and the village fete fell race will all keep going and find a market, and there will be new commercial events every year that will either die after the first event or limp on until they become properly commercially viable.

What is more likely to be an issue is conflict of use of space/resources. Road closures, extra traffic/congestion, litter, visual pollution, route marking, pressure on local services etc will all be noticed by the local community, councils and emergency services and the actions of one irresponsible commercial race could lead to a ban on all events in a park or public space. The hoops you are legally obliged to jump through to actually put on a race are few, but if you want to do things 'properly' and have the support of the local authority and landowners then you will probably find it very tricky indeed. 

A good example of the last point is access to footpaths over private and public land. I live under the Clwydian Range - if I wanted to organise a self-navigating ultra along the Offa's Dyke path I could organise it and run it without notifying anyone. If I wanted to speak to NRW, the Denbigshire Countryside/AONB people and a few other stakeholders I would have a dozen meetings to attend and a lot of emailing and form-filling. The race entrants wouldn't know either way - which am I more likely to do?

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to richprideaux:

Sounds like you are not too far away from me.  I can see Moel Famau from my village (in the distance).

 richprideaux 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Rhewl, in the flat bit of the Vale of Clwyd

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to richprideaux:

You certainly have great access to a lot of good running over that way.  I suppose Buckley are one of the key players over there.  Plenty going on over the Clwydians...

 DancingOnRock 24 May 2018
In reply to richprideaux:

You’d do whatever the people who are insuring you require you to do.

 

 richprideaux 24 May 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> You’d do whatever the people who are insuring you require you to do.

For several event organisers I know of insurance is the thing you pay for to show the landowner/stakeholders.

Finding someone to insure you =/= finding someone who understands your event/race and what the risks are. One insurer I asked for a quote from was happy to insure us for a triathlon - as long as we didn't go anywhere near water.

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

We have two local 10k races - Farndon and Tilston.

They are poles apart although their courses almost overlap.

Farndon has sponsorship, chip timing, medals, prizes, UKA certification, closed roads etc.  £18.00.

Tilston does not have all these things including the roads not being closed, (not sure about a medal).  £12.00.

In 2017 Farndon attracted 615 runners.  Tilston got 76 and the winner was 40:02.

 

So they are both 10k races and both local but clearly the attraction of Farndon is in one or more of the variables.

 plyometrics 24 May 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

> I've got a bee in my bonnet about the t-shirts you get at events. I can't stand the crap 'technical' ones lots of races give out and would much rather have a cotton one I can wear down the pub without looking too much of a fud.

Totally agree. The quality of tech t-shirts at races is appalling. I take all mine to the charity shop. 

Cotton is the way forward. Although there’s really only one cotton finisher’s t-shirt that’s really worth having...

Post edited at 13:04
 fred99 24 May 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

> Understand your concerns, but if an event gets people running and more active it can only be a good thing.

Not true - many people are not suited to distance running, which is what 10K, half marathon and marathon are.

If you have the build of a Shot Putter or Hammer Thrower you may well cause yourself damage. In fact any powerfully built person would do well to think twice before running more than 2 or 3 miles on a regular basis.

 

3
 fred99 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

> A question - are we destroying running events by building up expectations for runners?

YES

> This is nothing to do with the individual achievements of runners, fast or slow.  But have we now reached a situation where the paraphernalia around runners and the costs involved have turned it into a bit of an experiential circus?

YES

> Nowadays your average half marathon will come in at £30 or more and for that you can normally expect:

> * Chip timing

Due to most Timekeepers having got fed up with standing around for hours.

> * A chunky bespoke medal

Worthless to regular runners, only any use to the once-a-year brigade who want to show off.

> * A technical t-shirt

Again, regular runners would collect how many ? in a year.

> * Race photography 

> * Water, gels and sports drinks along the route

> * A goody bag

All 3 above are simply a waste.

> * Closed roads

City centre routes cause the most chaos, but seem to be all the once-a-year brigade want.

> One direction we are heading is a turn off to me - mud runs, colour runs, obstacle courses.  Mostly because these feel as though they are moving away from running and more towards team, participation photo opportunity challenges to motivate groups of friends and generate social media likes.  I’m sure they achieve a lot for charities and people who want the challenge, but for running?

Totally agree.

> There will always be good local events, but in future will runners want to do them if there is not a whole lot of “stuff” thrown in?

At the cost of races today, it's damn difficult for regular runners to race regularly without being stinking rich. Remember you have to get to/from the races as well. Running (as in road racing) used to be a sport that the not so well off could enjoy, it is no longer the case.

 

1
 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Is Tilston a slow course? My club 10k gets 300-350 people on a Tuesday night, to run on open roads, no medal, no t-shirt, no chip timing. It’s a fairly slow course, course record is 30:06, but that was by a quality runner. We put the price up last year, £6 for club runners.

 DancingOnRock 24 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

Does your club not participate in mid-week leagues? We have a series of 5 10k races on open roads. For free. 300+ runners each time. 

Post edited at 13:51
OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

I don't believe so.  I would say that the two courses are not dissimilar.  Perhaps they just don't do enough about publicity.

 DancingOnRock 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Chip timing, a medal and an officially measured course are the three big draws. 

Not many people will run about 10k for an approximate time. 

 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Does your club not participate in mid-week leagues? We have a series of 5 10k races on open roads. For free. 300+ runners each time. 

No.

 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

It’s just that the winning time seemed very slow. 

 steveriley 24 May 2018
In reply to fred99:

Yes and no. Might just be the sort of racing I do, but I don't spend much on entries. Around here there's a winter league of around 10 free road events, 2x cross country leagues (free once the club has bought in) a set of September trail races at a quid a pop, more and more parkruns popping up. Plus a few special occasion races that I don't mind paying a bit for. Beyond that I mostly run the fells at 4 quid and a bit more for big events. I am tight though

 DancingOnRock 24 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

Inter-club races are an eye opener for anyone who thinks they’re doing well in open races. People running 50mins are in the bottom 80% of the feild and the tail runners are coming in around 60mins.

 wbo 24 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:it happens though - there's a ton of small races with slow winning g times you never hear about.  Some races are big, some are small and not much splits them objectively.

Can you race on the cheap - for sure - league cross country, championships, select road races, and a bit of track. That will easy get you 20 races a year.   If most people did the above cross country, regular park runs and 4 to 6 decent road races they'd get all the racing they need

 

 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to wbo:

Surprised at the time though. Even at a small local race, I would expect a few guys that can run sub 35 and 20 percent of the male field being able to run sub 40.

 Neil Williams 24 May 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Quite, being a slower runner I like chip timing, personally.  I doubt it is all that expensive in the scheme of things.

 The New NickB 24 May 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

Generally chip timing adds about £2 per participant. I think it is only desirable for large fields and even then it isn’t essential. Obviously in more expensive races it is expected, I wouldn’t want to pay an extra couple of quid for a £5 5k. I’ve hand timed a field of 400, it’s not easy.

OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

Yes, last year it was, though the course record is 33 or 34 mins.

 DaveHK 24 May 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

> Although there’s really only one cotton finisher’s t-shirt that’s really worth having...

Dead right, I should be picking one up on Saturday although I'm really hoping to get a shot glass. 

 plyometrics 24 May 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

I’ll give you that. Although I was thinking about last Saturday!

Hope you have a great trip and race!

 DaveHK 24 May 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

Pardon my ignorance, what was last Saturday?

 plyometrics 24 May 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

Old County Tops. Best tee in the business!

 steveriley 24 May 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

Got. Just!

Roadrunner6 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino: 

The US seems to be a good 5-10 years down the road and few small races exist..

Even a cheap race costs $20 and a big marathon is at least $100 if not $200, a half the better part of $100.

I dont race that much anymore because I just cant afford to race every week like I could inthe UK  

 wbo 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:few small races exist or are publicised?   

 

I was going to see how the number of races per year was changing but no doubt it is, thanks to parkruns .  A few years ago there was a signifiicant increase in the number of small league cross country races - is anyone here doing those?

 

 DaveHK 24 May 2018
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Even a cheap race costs $20 and a big marathon is at least $100 if not $200, a half the better part of $100.

Don't take up long distance triathlon then, prices for that would make your eyes water.

My wife did Iron Man UK and it was about £500 for the entry. The week before I'd done the Glamaig hill race for £5 which included a pint and a bowl of chilli. I don't think she enjoyed it 100 times more than I did!

 Rob Parsons 24 May 2018
In reply to plyometrics:

>... others prefer the simplicity of getting lost in clag for only 5 quid. 

You can do that for free.

I don't understand the mentality of these mob-handed events. But then I abhor crowds in general.

 

 

 

 DaveHK 24 May 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> I don't understand the mentality of these mob-handed events. 

It's a race.

Post edited at 21:34
 plyometrics 24 May 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

It might not be for you, but a £5 fell race, for example, can buy you a certain type of atmosphere, camaraderie and, like Dave says, race environment that’s difficult to find outside a paid for running event. 

Not suggesting it’s better or worse than a free run in the hills on your own (which I actually prefer) it’s just different. 

Post edited at 21:40
 Yanis Nayu 24 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I’ll  never understand the mentality of paying to do something you can do anyway. If I want to ride my bike 100 miles there’s nothing to stop me. 

 DancingOnRock 24 May 2018
In reply to wbo:

I ran in 5 Sunday league cross country and also the Nationals at Parliament Hill. That was brutal. 

 Doghouse 24 May 2018

 

> If you have the build of a Shot Putter or Hammer Thrower you may well cause yourself damage. In fact any powerfully built person would do well to think twice before running more than 2 or 3 miles on a regular basis.

Really? What makes you say that?

1
OP Rampikino 24 May 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Racing against other competitors to test yourself perhaps?

 Yanis Nayu 25 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I understand racing - I do it. It’s mass participation stuff I don’t get, where the achievement is doing something you could do anyway. I’d make an exception for a marathon maybe, but I think I’m basically agreeing with your OP. 

 The New NickB 25 May 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> I understand racing - I do it. It’s mass participation stuff I don’t get, where the achievement is doing something you could do anyway. I’d make an exception for a marathon maybe, but I think I’m basically agreeing with your OP. 

A marathon is a race. However many people run a marathon to complete rather than race, they are no different from people aiming to complete a 100 mile cycling event. You possibly see a marathon as different, because it's slightly out of your experience, the same may be true for many people doing a sportive for the first time.

 DancingOnRock 25 May 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

It’s an event. A social occasion where you can meet new people and  existing friends who all have a common interest. 

Last night we had 60+ club members out, over 300 runners in total. These are people who have made a special effort to come. We might get 30-40 people out on a training night.

Plus we meet other people from other clubs. 

Post edited at 08:31
 birdie num num 25 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

Mrs Num Num has got herself a fit bit and has suddenly become a running bore, constantly talking about PBs and stretching her great fat pudgy thighs at every opportunity.

She's trying to go sub 2 for 5k and gets really narky when she goes over by only twenty minutes and then I get a dog's life for a few days like she's boiling beetroots.

 timjones 25 May 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> I understand racing - I do it. It’s mass participation stuff I don’t get, where the achievement is doing something you could do anyway. I’d make an exception for a marathon maybe, but I think I’m basically agreeing with your OP. 

If there is a difference between racing and mass participation events how far off the winning pace can you sink before your race becomes a mass participation event?

 

 timjones 25 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> Generally chip timing adds about £2 per participant. I think it is only desirable for large fields and even then it isn’t essential. Obviously in more expensive races it is expected, I wouldn’t want to pay an extra couple of quid for a £5 5k. I’ve hand timed a field of 400, it’s not easy.

I'd say that chip timing is an organisers decision. If we're expecting them to provide timing it's their call on whether or not they want to try and simplify things with chip timing.

That said, I've managed to avoid cip timed events up until now and my first one is next month.  I'd better fathom out what I need to do to make it work

 Chris the Tall 25 May 2018
In reply to Rampikino:

I'm all for closed roads. I think it should be made easier (and cheaper) to close roads to motor traffic for runs, cycles, street markets, even street parties ! I didn't run the Sheff half this year, but went down to Hunters Bar to see the race go through. But I also enjoyed the atmosphere before the runners arrived - people were able to mingle and chat with their neighbours, enjoy the tranquility without a constant stream of traffic flying past. Very similar when the roads were closed for the sky ride. It makes you realise what a massive impact motor vehicles have on communities (and yes I do own one, I just try and use it sparingly).

Unfortunately when I went out on my bike an hour later I was frequently reminded that many motorists don't take too kindly to having "their" roads closed and will vent their frustrations by speeding along back roads with little consideration for others.   

OP Rampikino 25 May 2018
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I agree that we need to move away from the automatic right for unrestricted access to the roads by motorists only!

 Neil Williams 25 May 2018
In reply to timjones:

> That said, I've managed to avoid cip timed events up until now and my first one is next month.  I'd better fathom out what I need to do to make it work

Turn up and run your race as normal, basically, then get your time at the end.  The chip is normally on the back of your number and the timing mats positioned such that you couldn't avoid passing over them.


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